Guided hand


Advice


A small preamble:

I like the cleric. I like it a very great deal. I've played more clerics than any other class. I'm not entirely sure why I like it so much aspecially since I am an ardent Athiest, but none the less if pressed I would have to say of all classes it is my favorite.
I feel that Domains give the class a lot of flavor, and a surprising degree of secondary versatility in addition to what it's spellcasting gives baseline. Channel energy is not enough to be powerful on it's own, this is true, however it can be a powerful addition to a cleric's arsenal if properly thought out and a few or more resources are dumped into it, or if you don't want to do so it is safely ignored and abandoned.
It is mechanichaly slated as an un interesting class with all you class decisions made at level one (possibly not true of certain archetypes, but that's a corner case). It is also in my experience the single most feat starved class in the game.

So I ask you the community given the feat starved nature of the cleric what do you think of guided hand. For those of you who aren't familiar with the feat it allows you to use your wisdom in place of dex or strength for attack rolls with your deities favored weapon. It has a prerequisite of channel smite. It came out in ultimate combat.

If you take this feat the implication is that you will at least be in part a battle cleric, with the possibility of being a reach cleric or even an archer cleric.

Because this feat implies that you are going to be a half half cleric, half martial half caster is it worth it? If you were planning on be primarily a martial cleric your strength would be higher than your wisdom, so you wouldn't take the feat. If you were all caster you wouldn't need to make attak rolls enough to justify two whole feats. So this is a feat chain for a kind of cleric that will need to dedicate feats to both martial ability beyond just the two (at least power attack), and also need to dedicate feats to casting.

Assuming that you decided to be human for that one precious bonus feat, could you make good use of this feat? In such a way that it would actually be more of a help than a hindrance given how many feats you need, and how many you actually have?

I am curious to see what people have to say.


Switch-hitting Archer Clerics. It's worth some feats to avoid becoming insanely MAD, too.


A cleric that has 12 Dex, high-ish Wisdom, decent Charisma worships a deity with the longbow and wants to wear fullplate (via Crusader or some other class) could make great use of it. The channel dice from Channel Smite would be wasted, yeah, but a dwarven cleric of Erastil in fullplate with a longbow is quite the combatant.

Plus, Owl's Wisdom adds to spell save DC's and attack rolls!


I like Guided Hand with Human melee clerics... something like:

STR13 DEX12 CON12 INT10 WIS16+2 CHA10
All +1s to WIS

1. Channel Smite, Guided Hand

3. Heavy Armor

5. Power Attack

This gives you good accuracy, patches up your otherwise low skills, and gives you a few extra points in HP.

You have enough buffs to fix your damage.

Fixing your low skills, low con and low AC is the priority, and Guided Hand allows it to happen.


A human (for simplicity) cleric of Urgathoa with

Str: 12
Dex: 8
Con: 15 (with the intention of a +1 level bonus later on)
Int: 10
Wis: 18 (+2)
Cha: 8

Favored weapon: scythe (decent damage,x4 crit, and trip special quality... useful for early on.)

Bump yourself up to fullplate, concentrate on self-buffing for damage (and a few potions, or a wand of shield wouldn't go amiss)

bap the scythe with unholy and you've got yourself a gluttonous plague fueled necromantic monster, ready to storm the battlefield.

This could be much more optimized, but I'm doing this all on the fly. And this will certainly take some set-up. (Aiming for PC level 6, roughly.)

Edit

15 point-by

Another edit (sorry, I don't know where my head is today.)

The point of this, is that you could have a martial cleric do some good damage, while also having decent DC's to any offensive spells he wanted to cast. (Hence the high casting stat.) Use buff spells to cover your melee damage, heavy armor to cover your defense, and then bap attack spells as necessary/desired.


Guided Hand can work brilliantly on a Cleric with a single level of Monk, crossed with Crusader's Flurry. Something like:

Old Man War, the grumpy old Gorumite
Cleric of Gorum X, Unchained Monk 1
Human 20pt: 14STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 16/18WIS+, 8CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack

1 Cleric. Channel Smite / Guided Hand: Greatsword
2 Cleric.
3 Cleric. Weapon Focus: Greatsword
4 Cleric.
5 Unchained Monk. Crusader's Flurry: Greatsword / +Dodge
6 Cleric.
7 Cleric. Power Attack
8 Cleric.
9 Cleric. Extra Channel (to use Grayflame Weapon)

So you can use Wisdom for AC and use Unchained Flurry of Blows with greatsword Power Attack. Divine Favor with Fate's Favored is a huge combat buff, Magic Vestment is 'free' bracers of armor, and a +1 Grayflame Greatsword with Greater Magic Weapon cast on it becomes a +3 weapon with +1d6 by level 8 when you activate Grayflame.

I've also been toying with an Ascetic Style Temple-Sword-and-Unarmed TWF Irori Cleric X/ Unarmed Fighter 1 with Guided Hand that uses Brawling armor, but it's turning out kind of complicated.

Liberty's Edge

Is it, that you really want to channel energy through your weapon?
Or dou you just want to martial option besides your casting?

If it's the second one, you would have two alternatives:

There is the Guided weapon enchant. Undoubtedly it is extremely powerful and some GM don't allow it.

The other way is for Longbows only. You take the Deific Obedience Feat worshipping Erastil. At level 6 you start to pick the Evangelist Prestige Class. You loose one effective level of your Cleric stuff, your saves will be a bit worse, but you get some other stuff like more skill points/class skills and a bit AC.
The tradeoff here is, that you reach the Deific Obedience Boons earlier. At Evangelist 9 you'll have the last one, which gives you your WIS to hit and damage with longbows, when you are at a max range of 30 ft.

Both concept won't provide you the martial option in the early game, that for sure. But worshipping Erastil can give an animal companion, which can do the martial work. Also having a bit of STR and DEX won't be wasted with the Evangelist path, 'cause the WIS bonus is in addition.

------------------------------------------------------------

Otherwise the flurry option mentioned above is great.
With a bit of STR and some static damage you will also be fine.


Nazrelle wrote:

Is it, that you really want to channel energy through your weapon?

Or do you just want to martial option besides your casting?

If it's the second one, you would have two alternatives:

There is the Guided weapon enchant. Undoubtedly it is extremely powerful and some GM don't allow it.

The other way is for Longbows only. You take the Deific Obedience Feat worshiping Erastil. At level 6 you start to pick the Evangelist Prestige Class. You loose one effective level of your Cleric stuff, your saves will be a bit worse, but you get some other stuff like more skill points/class skills and a bit AC.
The trade-off here is, that you reach the Deific Obedience Boons earlier. At Evangelist 9 you'll have the last one, which gives you your WIS to hit and damage with longbows, when you are at a max range of 30 ft.

Both concept won't provide you the martial option in the early game, that for sure. But worshiping Erastil can give an animal companion, which can do the martial work. Also having a bit of STR and DEX won't be wasted with the Evangelist path, 'cause the WIS bonus is in addition.

------------------------------------------------------------

Otherwise the flurry option mentioned above is great.
With a bit of STR and some static damage you will also be fine.

(Grammar checked your post a little, and I'm sorry. I failed my will save to resist the little red squiggly lines.)

HOLY SWEET URGATHOA!

I can see _why_ it would be banned

I may actually have to re-work my cleric using this, thanks for linking it. =3


Guided Hand can be used with Holy Ice Weapon to basically ignore your strength even on a Martial Cleric.


Nazrelle wrote:

Is it, that you really want to channel energy through your weapon?

Or dou you just want to martial option besides your casting?

If it's the second one, you would have two alternatives:

There is the Guided weapon enchant. Undoubtedly it is extremely powerful and some GM don't allow it.

GMs don't allow it not because it's powerful, but because it's not Pathfinder material. It's 3.5.


Note that with Guided Hand giving you the ability to melee with a wisdom-focused character, there are some really powerful Cleric Domain Powers that can be exploited with Domain Strike or the Conductive weapon property. For example, an Irori Cleric could throw Domain Strike: Command (Law\Inevitable subdomain) with a DC of 1/2level+WIS on any target they've hit, and command them to flee for one round. As per the Ascetic TWF build I mentioned above -

Unarmed Fighter 1/ Separatist of Irori X
Dual Talent Human: 14STR, 15/17DEX, 12CON, 10INT, 15/17WIS+, 9CHA
Domains: Law\Inevitable, Plant

1 Cleric: Channel Smite
2 Unarmed Fighter: Bonus - Ascetic Style: Temple Sword
3 Cleric: Guided Hand
4 Cleric
5 Cleric: Two-Weapon Fighting
6 Cleric
7 Cleric: Domain Strike: Command
8 Cleric
9 Cleric: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10 Cleric
11 Cleric: Power Attack

Two-Weapon fighting with temple sword and unarmed strike, holding a light shield. Brawling light armor and Plant Domain Wood Fist power affect both weapons.

Liberty's Edge

Secret Wizard wrote:
Nazrelle wrote:

Is it, that you really want to channel energy through your weapon?

Or dou you just want to martial option besides your casting?

If it's the second one, you would have two alternatives:

There is the Guided weapon enchant. Undoubtedly it is extremely powerful and some GM don't allow it.

GMs don't allow it not because it's powerful, but because it's not Pathfinder material. It's 3.5.

That's a point, too.

Though most of my GM's claimed this too powerful before even checking where it's from.

werewolf435 wrote:

(Grammar checked your post a little, and I'm sorry. I failed my will save to resist the little red squiggly lines.)

Not sure, what you want to tell me. English isn't my native language.

Is there anything you did not understand about what I said? If needed I can try to rephrase it.


You will suffer low a.c. issues, until your wisdom is sky high (no armors).
There are other options :
1. Sohei offer flurry in mithral breastplate.
2. Why not take the archtype Ecclesitheurge? You don't wear armor anyhow...


werewolf435 wrote:

Not sure, what you want to tell me. English isn't my native language.
Is there anything you did not understand about what I said? If needed I can try to rephrase it.

No, the intent was clear, there were just a few misspellings. From my understanding though, it's rude to change other people's quotes, even if it is just correcting spelling mistakes. So I wanted to make sure you didn't think I was being disrespectful.


werewolf435 wrote:


werewolf435 wrote:

Not sure, what you want to tell me. English isn't my native language.
Is there anything you did not understand about what I said? If needed I can try to rephrase it.

No, the intent was clear, there were just a few misspellings. From my understanding though, it's rude to change other people's quotes, even if it is just correcting spelling mistakes. So I wanted to make sure you didn't think I was being disrespectful.

You were actually being rather disrespectful. And this is an international forum. Sorry for the OT.


werewolf435 wrote:

You were actually being rather disrespectful. And this is an international forum. Sorry for the OT.

OT? (Sorry, I'm rather to these forums, so I don't really know much about them.)

I'll try to be lss so in the future


Yes guided weapon property is from 3.5, which at this point in Pathfinder is like saying it's third party, no-one I know would ever allow it, and I myself have specifically disallowed it on one occasion.

Apart from that, thanks for the interesting suggestions huys, I don't like multiclassing much, so I probably won't do the crusader's flurry thing, but the other suggestions were cool. (The monk option is certainly interesting, just not my cup of tea).

I'm thinking of doing the following:

1 channel smite, combat reflexes
3 guided hand (this is where I am now, I just leveled)
5 power attack
7 sacred summons (I'm chaotic evil, so the options are pretty good)
9 ?? persistent spell perhaps?
11 divine interference
13?? quicken spell perhaps?
15??
17??
19??

Maybe put augment summoning in there somewhere... dunno.
my stats are str14, dex14, con14, int8, wis17, cha14.

No augmenting items yet.

Oh, my favored weapon is a baradiche I'm a reach cleric clearly.


The spell Instrument of Agony is really, really great if you have high wisdom and melee ability. Persistent Instrument of Agony is a monstrous shut-down. If you have a powerful Variant Channeling effect, then using Greater Channel Smite allows you to divide-up your Channel Smite into every attack you make in a round, making each hit a new save against your Variant Channel debuff.

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