Can you take Racial Heritage Twice?


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Grand Lodge

Can you take Racial Heritage Twice and have mixed ancestry that includes two different Humanoid races besides Human? For example Gnome and Dwarf?


unless a feat says it can be taken multiple times it can only be taken once.

Grand Lodge

Where is this stated?


Chess Pwn wrote:
unless a feat says it can be taken multiple times it can only be taken once.

RAW, yeah, but it doesn't make sense why a PC can't be of two different races.

I think it makes sense if a half-orc PC takes Racial Heritage to be technically an Orc and a Human. Likewise I don't see whats the problem with having a Gnome Dwarf crossbreed.

I don't see any giant mechanical flaws and the player is investing 2 feats for it....

Grand Lodge

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Ok, I found where it says you CAN even if it doesn't say so in the feat.

CRB says: "If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description."

The question is, would it be considered stacking benefits when the benefits are a little different. They would be giving two different subtypes not the same one twice.


I'd say stacking benefits is like taking dodge 3 times, or toughness repeatedly (my kineticist wishes). Obviously you can't triple power attack for a -x to hit but +×,000 to damage. Multiple cleaves doesn't mean you hit a second target 3 times if you cleave through the first (though it might mean you could cleave a third target, even if greater cleave would be a smarter feat choice).

Racial heritage works fine for showing a varied and interbred ancestry, and there's rarely a time when I can see it being an optimized choice, let alone overpowered, so I'd allow it in my own games if you showed me why and it wasn't super sharp cheddar cheesy.

Expect table variation, YMMV, and DM Rule 0 applies. Might I ask your intentions with the concept so I can file away a neat idea in my collection?


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mercilessdm wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
unless a feat says it can be taken multiple times it can only be taken once.
RAW, yeah, but it doesn't make sense why a PC can't be of two different races.

He is half angel, half dragon, half giant. But his race is human.

But what do I know. I have always thought racial heritage was a huge mistake and a rules NIGHTMARE, causing countless extremely varied rules problems since you are combining races and options never meant to exist together.


mercilessdm wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
unless a feat says it can be taken multiple times it can only be taken once.

RAW, yeah, but it doesn't make sense why a PC can't be of two different races.

I think it makes sense if a half-orc PC takes Racial Heritage to be technically an Orc and a Human. Likewise I don't see whats the problem with having a Gnome Dwarf crossbreed.

I don't see any giant mechanical flaws and the player is investing 2 feats for it....

Er... Half-Orcs already count as both Humans and Orcs. Furthermore, if they take Racial Heritage they can also count as, say, an Elf (nobody likes to talk about it).

Drake Brimstone wrote:

Ok, I found where it says you CAN even if it doesn't say so in the feat.

CRB says: "If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description."

The question is, would it be considered stacking benefits when the benefits are a little different. They would be giving two different subtypes not the same one twice.

Refer to the fact that Weapon Focus requires special text to allow you to take it with different weapons to infer as to why this doesn't work.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Chess Pwn wrote:
unless a feat says it can be taken multiple times it can only be taken once.

+1

Only feats that describe how you can take it a second time, allow you to take it more than once.

The line the OP offered about not stacking is in cases where you get bonus feats the same as a feat you already have.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Er... Half-Orcs already count as both Humans and Orcs. Furthermore, if they take Racial Heritage they can also count as, say, an Elf (nobody likes to talk about it).

The thing to do is take a 1/2 elf sorcerer with the Orc bloodline and the Racial Heritage [dwarf] feat. That way you count as human, orc, elf, half-elf and dwarf!!!

lemeres wrote:
He is half angel, half dragon, half giant. But his race is human.

Is that crazier that the example I gave above? By RAW, you can count as 5 races...


graystone wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Er... Half-Orcs already count as both Humans and Orcs. Furthermore, if they take Racial Heritage they can also count as, say, an Elf (nobody likes to talk about it).
The thing to do is take a 1/2 elf sorcerer with the Orc bloodline and the Racial Heritage [dwarf] feat. That way you count as human, orc, elf, half-elf and dwarf!!!

Now that's a night everyone wishes they could forget.


graystone wrote:
lemeres wrote:
He is half angel, half dragon, half giant. But his race is human.
Is that crazier that the example I gave above? By RAW, you can count as 5 races...

...it is since I see no example. Are you referencing a different thread?

How can you get 5? Best I can come up with is 4 (an aasimar with that one trait that counts as human, who took racial heritage and the orc bloodline from sorcerer)

But just because you can do something hardly means you 'should'.


lemeres: Didn't you read the post you replied to? Where I talked to Arachnofiend above my reply to you?

1/2 elf sorcerer with the Orc bloodline and the Racial Heritage [dwarf] feat.

Counts as:
1: human
2: orc
3: elf
4: half-elf
5: dwarf

So even if you think racial heritage is a mistake, you can make a character that counts as 4 races without it.


graystone wrote:

lemeres: Didn't you read the post you replied to? Where I talked to Arachnofiend above my reply to you?

1/2 elf sorcerer with the Orc bloodline and the Racial Heritage [dwarf] feat.

Counts as:
1: human
2: orc
3: elf
4: half-elf
5: dwarf

So even if you think racial heritage is a mistake, you can make a character that counts as 4 races without it.

Honestly- no. I scanned for my own name, and saw the top part was in comment aimed towards arachnofiend.

My mind threw itself off due to thes elf reference within the same comment it was referencing. That, combined with the fact that this is one of "those" topics (metaphorical hands, claws on feet, punching with greatswords, etc) meant I was full of assumptions of spill over.

Admittedly, not good practices.

Grand Lodge

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Shiroi wrote:
Might I ask your intentions with the concept so I can file away a neat idea in my collection?

An idea I had that I'd probably never be able to do anyway seeming as I play mostly PFS. The idea spawned with the debates about Racial Heritage Kitsune and Magical Tail Feat and remembering the old debate about Racial Heritage Kobold and Tail Terror. If it worked you could get yourself a tail via Magical Tail then apply Tail Terror to it. (Worse would be taking Magical Tail 8 times, but that one no GM in their right mind would allow to give more then one tail attack with tail terror.)

I just like to think of crazy things.


James Risner wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
unless a feat says it can be taken multiple times it can only be taken once.

+1

+2

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Drake Brimstone wrote:
idea spawned with the debates about Racial Heritage Kitsune and Magical Tail Feat

If you remember that debate, there were a number of people saying that magical tail wouldn't give you a tail either. Along with a small group of extremely vocal supporters. Pretty much the same thing happened with Tail Terror.

Grand Lodge

That debate is still going and quite frankly RAW it does give a tail. Every argument used against it refers to something that isn't required for a Kitsune to take, and benefit from, the feat or an interpretation of the use of the word Extra.

And one more time, WHERE does it say you can't take a feat more then once if it doesn't say you can?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Drake Brimstone wrote:
And one more time, WHERE does it say you can't take a feat more then once if it doesn't say you can?

IMO you've already quoted it.

Does the feat have any text indicating that there are benefits for having it more than once?

No. Ergo... no benefit for having it more than once. The argument that the benefits might be different is actually self-defeating... getting benefits from each instance of the feat IS 'stacking'. That's what the word means in this usage... you get the benefits of the second instance 'stacked' with the benefits of the first instance.

Nothing in the feat explains how having it multiple times would work, ergo having it multiple times does nothing.

Grand Lodge

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That isn't saying you can't take it more then once, just that you can't benefit from it more then once, and therefore not answering the question of where it says you can't Take it more then once.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Ok... you can take it as many times as you like. However, all instances after the first do nothing except use up a feat.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Drake Brimstone wrote:

That debate is still going and quite frankly RAW it does give a tail.

WHERE does it say you can't take a feat more then once

Your RAW says it gives you a tail. Mine says it doesn't. If you show up at my table telling me you have a tail because you took Racial Heritage, I'll tell you it doesn't by the rules and that will be the end of the discussion if you wish to remain at my table.

Look at any feat that you can, in the unusual facts section:

Quote:
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times


By RAW, probably not, so not for PFS.

For a home game, ask your GM. Most will probably allow it if it makes sense for the character. It's not as if it is an overpowered option.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Here... this is the measure to use when trying to figure out if something happens with a weird combo with Racial Heritage.

Do you have X? Yes, then you get Y

Do you have X? No, then you do not get Y.

So, does the character have Kisune Magic, one that allows the use of a spell like ability? No? Then you don't get another ability and you don't grow a tail...

Same with Fox Shape.

Does the character have the Kitsune Shape Change ability? No? Then you can't use the Fox Shape until you have it or an equivelant.

Now, you can still take the feats in question, but whether or not you actually have the effects depend on what the feat expands upon.

Humans have hands, they can get claw attacks. Humans have mouths, they can get bite attacks and do amazing things with their tongues. Humans have skin, and it goes on. What they don't have is tails, Spell like abilities and being able to morgh into another humaniod form.

So, getting this feat twice to try and... and... uhmmm...

I am not sure why any player would want to spend that many feats in this way. It really seems like one is trying to make a 2nd edition Bard, but worse?

I wouldn't think Racial Heritage could be taken twice. To make a racial mix of that sort would require something more than feats and traits. (And a night at a Temple of Calistria one will always try to remember but fail)


lemeres wrote:
mercilessdm wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
unless a feat says it can be taken multiple times it can only be taken once.
RAW, yeah, but it doesn't make sense why a PC can't be of two different races.

He is half angel, half dragon, half giant. But his race is human.

But what do I know. I have always thought racial heritage was a huge mistake and a rules NIGHTMARE, causing countless extremely varied rules problems since you are combining races and options never meant to exist together.

By half-angel do you mean half-celestial? Is the half-giant template your using a 3rd party template? Or are you even referring to templates? The racial heritage feat allows you to have blood ties to another PLAYABLE PC race (aka elf, dwarf, halfling, etc etc).

This does not necessarily mean you are HALF of something. It just means you have blood ties to a specific PLAYABLE race (and thus means you qualify for traits and feats that require you to be of that race in order to take them).

Now, if your using templates, well, I would never ever in a million years allow a PC to have three templates on him at once (especially when those three templates are HALF-"something" templates).

You can only be half-something / half-something ELSE! There is no 3rd or 4th HALF.


thaX: the thing is, you're inventing prerequisites that aren't there.

Kisune Magic isn't referenced even by inference. This a HUGE leap of logic to change the fluff of "growing magical powers" into 'needs Kisune Magic'.

You have more of a point with fox shape as it says "Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action" so there is at least an inference but there is still no explicit requirement for Kitsune Shape Change.

#1 mistaken assumption fix, humans in fact CAN have tails. Google it once.
#1a mistaken assumption fix, humans in fact CAN have tails. AAsimars and Tieflings can count as human AND both have options for tails either with racial traits or Alternative Physical Features. So an explicit example of 'humans' being able to have tails in game.
#2 mistaken assumption fix, humans can take racial traits and/or background traits to get Spell like abilities. The internet is your friend and you can find these too. Start with Fey Magic racial trait.
#3 mistaken assumption, humans are not "able to morgh into another humaniod form". Google alter self spell...

If you think these things need fixed Paizo either have to add explicit requirements to those feats or you need to house-rule them in.


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graystone wrote:

lemeres: Didn't you read the post you replied to? Where I talked to Arachnofiend above my reply to you?

1/2 elf sorcerer with the Orc bloodline and the Racial Heritage [dwarf] feat.

Counts as:
1: human
2: orc
3: elf
4: half-elf
5: dwarf

So even if you think racial heritage is a mistake, you can make a character that counts as 4 races without it.

Why not also take Half-Drow Paragon?


1)
You can take the same feat multiple times if you wish.

However, as quoted earlier, if you have the same feat more than once you only gain the benefits of one of them (presumably the first chosen) unless stated otherwise.

The check for "stack or not stack" is based on the feat, not the benefits it gives. If a feat gave you the option to have +1 to hit or +1 caster level (your choice), and you took it twice, the feat would still not stack with itself and you would only gain one of the benefits. (unless it mentioned you could take it more than once/stack its benefits)

Conversely, if two different feats, with identical benefits, each gave an untyped +1 bonus to hit, you would be able to take them both and stack their benefits.

As Racial Heritage makes no allowance for you to benefit from more than one of it, doing so is fairly pointless.

2)
You can take Magical Tail on a non-Kitsune using previously mentioned tactics.
However, as there is no mention of growing a tail in the benefit sections, you don't.

The "fluff" states you grow an "extra tail". But if you don't have a tail to begin with, you can't grow as extra of it. See the Tail Terror ruling. Hence, no extra tails unless you had one before taking the feat. At my games anyways. Expect table variation from GMs with creative interpretations on the meaning of the word "extra".

That being said, you still gain the primary benefits of the feat, namely, the spell-like abilities, as actually having tail(s) isn't a prerequisite.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
graystone wrote:

thaX: the thing is, you're inventing prerequisites that aren't there.

Kisune Magic isn't referenced even by inference. This a HUGE leap of logic to change the fluff of "growing magical powers" into 'needs Kisune Magic'.

You have more of a point with fox shape as it says "Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action" so there is at least an inference but there is still no explicit requirement for Kitsune Shape Change.

#1 mistaken assumption fix, humans in fact CAN have tails. Google it once.
#1a mistaken assumption fix, humans in fact CAN have tails. AAsimars and Tieflings can count as human AND both have options for tails either with racial traits or Alternative Physical Features. So an explicit example of 'humans' being able to have tails in game.
#2 mistaken assumption fix, humans can take racial traits and/or background traits to get Spell like abilities. The internet is your friend and you can find these too. Start with Fey Magic racial trait.
#3 mistaken assumption, humans are not "able to morgh into another humaniod form". Google alter self spell...

If you think these things need fixed Paizo either have to add explicit requirements to those feats or you need to house-rule them in.

As this has been gone over in other threads, I won't go over the feats themselves one by one. The overall purpose of the feat, as set by the descriptive text, is to expand on the various powers of the race's particular. The Kitsune specifically has these powers that the human with Racial Heritage does not. When you expand a power that isn't there, it is expanding on nothing, hence nothing is gained.

No tail means you can't use it to attack with, no innate power means no expanded powers that base themselves on it, no Kitsune Shapeshifting means no additional forms, and so on...


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion Subscriber

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tadv?Adopted-NineTailed-Scion#32

Crossposted specifically for thaX, because I disagree that my Kitsune doesn't qualify for Magical Tail. The prerequisite is "Kitsune". I would agree if it were like some of the other feats in the same book that specified the racial trait it built off of, like Half Drow Paragon

"Prerequisites: Drow-blooded and drow magic racial
traits, half-elf"

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graystone wrote:

"Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action" so there is at least an inference but there is still no explicit requirement for Kitsune Shape Change.

If you think these things need fixed Paizo either have to add explicit requirements to those feats or you need to house-rule them in.

Or you use the inference, and call it RAW and reject it based on rules as written (the inference.)

gatherer818 wrote:
I disagree that my Kitsune doesn't qualify for Magical Tail. The prerequisite is "Kitsune".

You are welcome to disagree, and have fun if your GM agrees. But if you are at a table I'm GMing then you won't gain any benefit from Magical Tail if you are not a natural Kitsune without Racial Heritage. Also if I'm just a player at a table you try this, I'll also strong disagree and I won't play at the same table if the GM sides with your version of RAW.


Drake Brimstone wrote:
That isn't saying you can't take it more then once, just that you can't benefit from it more then once, and therefore not answering the question of where it says you can't Take it more then once.

To specifically answer your question, after looking in all the expected places, I have not found any rule that says you cannot take the same feat more than once. However, as several people, including you, have already said:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/feats.html wrote:
Feat Descriptions...Benefit:... If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.

So even though you could take the feat, and select elf the first time, when you took it a second time, you wouldn't get the benefit. Even if you wanted to choose Dwarf it wouldn't stack, because all of that is part of the benefit that doesn't stack.


@James Risner
@graystone

I'm not sure I understand why you guys are connecting the Magic Tail Feat to the Kitsune Magic racial trait, or the existence of a tail. The feat literally says nothing about having the Kitsune Magic racial trait. It also doesn't say anything about modifying it. Make no reference to the rules from it. You take that feat and "You gain a new spell-like ability...[lots of text about what spells you get]...Your caster level for these spells is equal to your Hit Dice. The DCs for these abilities are Charisma-based."

As for the descriptive text, I'm pretty sure the Dev has stated many times that the descriptive text is not rules, and you shouldn't treat it as such.

EDIT: I don't even see anything in the description of the race that connects that says the tail has anything to do with their magic.

Another EDIT: Just say the other thread where this is being talked about. I'll take this conversation over there. :D


Does it say you can take it multiple times? Such as extra revelation or weapon focus?

Or is it like extra channeling where once is all you get.


Can we not have the Racial Heritage [insert tail-related argument here] conversation again?

It was obnoxious when it was about Kobolds.

It was even more obnoxious when it was about Kitsune.

The only correct answer is "not in PFS, in home games ask your GM."

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Doomed Hero wrote:

The only correct answer is "not in PFS, in home games ask your GM."

+1

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It adds to the innate magic that the Kitsune have. It is the main purpose of the feat, the tails are just "fluff."

Grand Lodge

Doomed Hero wrote:
The only correct answer is "not in PFS, in home games ask your GM."

Here is the thing, in PFS RAW rules. If it is determined that RAW you grow a tail and gain SLAs then in PFS you grow a tail and gain SLAs. If it is determined that RAW you gain the tails SLAs you do NOT have the power as a GM in PFS to say no to the player. If I sat down at your table with such a character and provided an appropriate source such as an official Dev post (as far as I know this does not exist atm) that RAW a Human with Racial Heritage Kitsune can take Magical Tail and grow a tail and gain SLAs and you say "not at my table" I would report you to the VO in a heartbeat.

The only arguments I'm seeing against Magical Tail are invisible prerequisites that are being arbitrarily added by people who don't like the idea and a strange interpretation of the word Extra.

This as far as I am aware is not settled one way or the other, making possible table variance, but it does NOT mean it wont' work in PFS at all.

I've been seeing way to much of "Not at MY table" in the Rules forum when it is essentially them saying they are House Ruling that you can't do it. That belongs in the Home Brew forum.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Drake Brimstone wrote:
provided an appropriate source such as an official Dev post (as far as I know this does not exist atm) that RAW a Human with Racial Heritage Kitsune can take Magical Tail and grow a tail and gain SLAs and you say "not at my table" I would report you to the VO in a heartbeat.

Funny thing. You won't get anywhere with the VO.

PFS is RAW.
GM reads the rules and determine RAW.
PFS leadership only expects GM's to follow FAQ and PFS leadership responses.
A random Dev comment isn't something that is currently binding. I'm the first to say they probably should be binding, but alas they are not now.

Also, you can find dev posts saying this doesn't work. So the probability of finding a dev saying it does, just not going to happen. At least in my view of probabilities.


thaX wrote:
It adds to the innate magic that the Kitsune have. It is the main purpose of the feat, the tails are just "fluff."

Fluff-y*

fixed it for you. =3


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion Subscriber

Deleted my post since I was getting way off-topic - there's another thread for the Racial Heritage / Magical Tail combo. Thing is, the arguments against being able to take Magical Tail in that case imply my Kitsune - my natural Kitsune, no Racial Heritage feat - also couldn't take Magical Tail. So I'm not arguing further here, but keep in mind the implications of your rules interpretations, as they could be further reaching than you realize.

Grand Lodge

James Risner wrote:
Drake Brimstone wrote:
provided an appropriate source such as an official Dev post (as far as I know this does not exist atm) that RAW a Human with Racial Heritage Kitsune can take Magical Tail and grow a tail and gain SLAs and you say "not at my table" I would report you to the VO in a heartbeat.

Funny thing. You won't get anywhere with the VO.

PFS is RAW.
GM reads the rules and determine RAW.
PFS leadership only expects GM's to follow FAQ and PFS leadership responses.
A random Dev comment isn't something that is currently binding. I'm the first to say they probably should be binding, but alas they are not now.

Also, you can find dev posts saying this doesn't work. So the probability of finding a dev saying it does, just not going to happen. At least in my view of probabilities.

Usually the PFS leadership defers to the Devs, but technically you are right. So, why don't I duplicate the tails question over there so they can tell you how it is RAW.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Drake Brimstone wrote:
so they can tell you how it is RAW.

Not really how RAW works, but sure.

RAW simply means "how does the GM interpret the rules".


Stacking has a fairly specific meaning in the rules, and counting as a race isn't among the things that stacking applies to.

I cannot find any specific and relevant rule preventing you from taking and benefiting from racial heritage twice (as long as it is for different races).

Weapon focus and like feats do not have a normal line stating you can only take a feat once. And we already have the quote clearly indicating that you can take feats multiple times.


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion Subscriber

Racial Heritage doesn't function in PFS.

Outside of PFS, I'm interested in this question, since technically the rules never do say that you can't take the same feat twice, only that the benefits don't stack. Stacking, as dragonhunterq says, isn't something that would normally apply selecting Racial Heritage for different races. Besides, Sorcerers already manifest all kinds of things from having a weird ancestor in their blood... why couldn't someone have two weird ancestors? "My great-grandfather was a bit of a fox..."

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

dragonhunterq wrote:
Stacking has a fairly specific meaning in the rules, and counting as a race isn't among the things that stacking applies to.

Stacking isn't as rigid as you say, spells that "don't stack" don't have to do the same thing to block each other.

Dark Archive

lemeres wrote:
mercilessdm wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
unless a feat says it can be taken multiple times it can only be taken once.
RAW, yeah, but it doesn't make sense why a PC can't be of two different races.

He is half angel, half dragon, half giant. But his race is human.

But what do I know. I have always thought racial heritage was a huge mistake and a rules NIGHTMARE, causing countless extremely varied rules problems since you are combining races and options never meant to exist together.

That's no siller then a GM allowing me to make a half fiend, half celestial, half dragon, young aasimar. Course I was limited to 10 attribute points to spend instead of 20. And I decided that was excessively silly so dropped the half fiend and half dragon templates. The Young template helped to balance the character to an extent. Twas still rather broken though.

Grand Lodge

James Risner wrote:
Drake Brimstone wrote:
so they can tell you how it is RAW.

Not really how RAW works, but sure.

RAW simply means "how does the GM interpret the rules".

No, RAW means Rules as Written. Has nothing to do with an individual GMs interpretation.


Drake Brimstone wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Drake Brimstone wrote:
so they can tell you how it is RAW.

Not really how RAW works, but sure.

RAW simply means "how does the GM interpret the rules".

No, RAW means Rules as Written. Has nothing to do with an individual GMs interpretation.

Since the written word is necessarily up for interpretation by the reader, James' point is that what constitutes RAW for the game's purpose is really up to the person determined to be the final arbiter of how the rules work.

RAW is something of an ambiguous catch-phrase that people like to use to mean "How I most literally read the words on the page" (which isn't to say I'm above doing the same).

Because language is by design imprecise, despite our best attempts, interpretation is always relevant.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Of course it is always possible to try and convince the GM to agree with the way you read the RAW ;-)

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