If you already have a shadow stalker you can, of course, rename it. Hope you like it.

SHADOW STALKER
BAB: +1
Good Saves: Fortitude and Reflex
Hit Dice: 1d10
Class Skills: Climb(STR), Craft(INT), Handle Animal(CHA), Heal(WIS), Intimidate(CHA), Knowledge (dungeoneering, geography, nature(INT)), Perception(WIS), Profession(WIS), Ride(DEX), Stealth(DEX), Survival(WIS), Swim(STR).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Shadow Rangers are proficient in all Simple and Martial Weapons, Light Armor, Medium Armor and Shields (but not Tower Shields).
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Fast Movement, Track, Trapfinding
2. Combat Style Feat, Evasion
3. Ruggedness, Umbral Sight
4. Skill Focus: Stealth, Trackless Step, Uncanny Dodge,
5. Hide In Plain Sight, Shadow Path
6. Combat Style Feat, Vital Strike
7. Flawless Stride, Umbral Sight
8. Fast Stealth, Swift Tracker
9. Improved Uncanny Dodge
10. Combat Style Feat, Shadow Path
11. Improved Vital Strike, Umbral Sight
12. Camouflage
13. Improved Evasion
14. Combat Style Feat
15. Shadow Path, Umbral Sight
16. Greater Vital Strike
17. Slippery Mind
18. Combat Style Feat, Freedom Of Movement
19. Umbral Sight
20. Shadow Master, Shadow Path

Fast Movement (Ex): A shadow stalker’s land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor, and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the shadow stalker’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the shadow stalker’s land speed.

Track (Ex): A shadow stalker adds half his level (minimum 1) to Survival skill checks made to follow or identify tracks.

Trapfinding: A shadow stalker adds 1/2 his level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps (minimum +1).

Combat Style Feat (Ex): At 2nd level, a shadow stalker must select one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or two weapon combat. The shadow stalker’s expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
If the shadow stalker selects archery, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot. At 6th level, he adds Improved Precise Shot and Manyshot to the list. At 10th level, he adds Pinpoint Targeting and Shot on the Run to the list.
If the shadow stalker selects two-weapon combat, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Quick Draw, and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 6th level, he adds Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense to the list. At 10th level, he adds Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Two- Weapon Rend to the list.
The benefits of the shadow stalker’s chosen style feats apply only when he wears light, medium, or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style feats when wearing heavy armor. Once a shadow stalker selects a combat style, it cannot be changed.

Evasion (Ex): When he reaches 9th level, a shadow stalker can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the shadow stalker is wearing light armor, medium armor, or no armor. A helpless shadow stalker does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Umbral Sight (Ex): Umbral Sight (Su). Beginning at 3rd level, the shadow stalker gains low-light vision (or superior low-light vision if he already has low-light vision). At 7th level, he gains darkvision with a range of 60 feet (or an additional 30 feet if he already has darkvision). At 11th level, the shadow stalker gains the ability to see perfectly in complete darkness, even magical darkness, out to 60 feet. At 15th level, he gains blindsense with a range of 30 feet. At 19th level, he gains blindsight with a range of 60 feet.
Ruggedness (ex): The shadow stalker enjoys a +1 bonus to fortitude and will save. He gains Endurance as a bonus feat.

Skill Focus: Stealth: The shadow stalker is particularly adept at stealth. Shadow stalker gets a +3 bonus on all checks involving stealth. If he has 10 or more ranks in stealth, this bonus increases to +6.

Trackless Step (Ex). At 3rd level, the shadow stalker can choose to leave to trackable trace behind.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a c shadow stalker an react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible. He still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A shadow stalker with this ability can still lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Chapter 8) against him. If a shadow stalker already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 5th level, a shadow stalker can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a ranger can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.

Shadow Path (Su): In a lengthy ritual, you allow shadowstuff to physically infuse your flesh and surround your form. At 5th level you gain 50% (full) concealment (as blur spell, however truesight does not counteract effect since this is not a glamour) instead of 20% (partial) concealment in dim light or darker (this is negated in bright light/ daylight spell conditions). In addition you can shadow jump (as per shadowdancer) 40' (x2/ 5 levels) and you gain the ability to create darkness (as the spell) 1 x per day/ 5 levels. At 10th level and forever after, you may instead create deeper darkness (as the spell).

Vital Strike (Combat): You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal. Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6. Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together, but do not multiply damage bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), or precision-based damage (such as sneak attack). This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit (although other damage bonuses are multiplied normally).

Flawless Stride (Ex). At 7th level, the shadow stalker can ignore the penalties for difficult terrain. Areas that are enchanted or magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect him.

Fast Stealth (Ex): This ability allows a shadow stalker to move at full speed using the Stealth skill without penalty.

Swift Tracker (Ex): Beginning at 8th level, a shadow stalker can move at his normal speed while using Survival to follow tracks without taking the normal –5 penalty. He takes only a –10 penalty (instead of the normal –20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A shadow stalker of 9th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another (rogue) the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more (rogue) levels than the target does. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum (rogue) level required to flank the character.

Improved Vital Strike (Combat): You can make a single attack that deals a large amount of damage. Prerequisites: Vital Strike, base attack bonus +11. Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the damage dice for the attack three times and add the results together, but do not multiply damage bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), or precision-based damage (such as sneak attack).
This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit (although other damage bonuses are multiplied normally).

Camouflage (Ex): A shadow stalker of 12th level or higher can add use of the Stealth skill (and Hide in Plain Sight ability) to hide in any natural terrains, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 13th level, a shadow stalker’s evasion improves. This ability works like evasion, except that while the shadow stalker still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, he henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless shadow stalker does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Greater Vital Strike (Combat): You can make a single attack that deals incredible damage. Prerequisites: Improved Vital Strike, Vital Strike, base attack bonus +16. Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the damage dice for the attack four times and add the results together, but do not multiply damage bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as f laming), or precision-based damage (such as sneak attack). This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit (although other damage bonuses are multiplied normally).

Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability represents the shadow stalker’s ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel him. If a shadow stalker with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, he can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. He gets only this one extra chance to succeed on his saving throw.

Freedom Of Movement (Ex). At 18th level, the shadow stalker gains a constant Freedom of Movement effect.

Shadow Master (Su): At 20th level, whenever a shadow stalker is in an area of dim light (or darker), he gains DR 10/— and a +2 luck bonus on all saving throws. In addition, whenever he successfully scores a critical hit against a foe who is in an area of dim light (or darker), that foe is paralyzed for 1d4 rounds.

Verminaard:

--SmiloDan, Is it possible to modify this into a 20 level class, I like your gloomblade and I've made a shadow ranger type you may like. I don't know if I can really reply to this old thread but I'm a tryin'.

HI!
Glad you liked the gloomblade.
You want a 20 level shadow priest? It's kind of a mystic theurgy class, half divine, half mystery-casting, so I don't know how to make it a 20 level class without changing a lot.

Do you want a stealthy divine caster, an undead creating mystery user, or what? Something like a dread necromancer (Heroes of Horror)?

I think there's definitely a class out there that might use negative energy and mysteries (shadow magic). Let me think about it while I watch Dollhouse. ;-)

Maybe take the shadowcaster as a base, add some Channel Negative Energy badness, and somehow incorporate negative energy and undead-like traits with the sustaining shadow ability.

Maybe come up with some new Paths and Mysteries that focus on Stealth, Scouting, Battlefield Control (through fear and terrain), and Animating/Controlling Undead.

I'm creating a party based on shadowy stealth. I'm probably using 2 clerics, 2 gloomblades and 2 shadow ranger types. It's a stealth/ infiltration/ assassination special forces type party.

I don't have access to (dread necromancer)Heroes of Horror or the other book (Tome of Magic) you mentioned which explained the shadow power you mentioned in the class description. They all have shadow powers which enhance their stealth capacities. If you could drop a link for the shadow channel type ability explained a little more thoroughly it would be a great boon.I'm still trying to work out the 20 level ability on my shadow stalker type.

Probably less mysteries in the priest because I should have it covered with the Gloomblade(s). Channel negative energy badness is imperative. Perhaps with some shadow traveling abilities to boot. I've borrowed some thoughts from you and a few others for my shadow stalker class. Animating/ controlling undead will be helpful as well, with a focus on the shadowy darkness though.

Thanks SmiloDan!! Will post my (hopefully not too powerful Shadow Stalker type class when I'm sure it's finalized for you and others to critique.

SmiloDan, Tue, Apr 21, 2009, 12:31 PM Flag | Reply

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Shadow Priest

Shadow Priests use their knowledge of shadowcasting to enhance their manipulation of negative energy.

Requirements:
Alignment: Non-good
Hide 6 ranks
Knowledge religion 6 ranks
Knowledge the planes 6 ranks
Ability to cast 3rd level divine spells
Ability to cast 2nd level mysteries
Ability to rebuke undead

Class Features:
BAB: +1/2
Good Saves: Fortitude and Will
Hit Dice: 1d6

Class Skills:
Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge arcana, Knowledge religion, Knowledge the planes, Move Silently, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft

Skill Points per Level: 2 + Int modifier

Shadow Priests gain no new weapon or armor proficiencies.

LEVEL ABILITY
1. Channel Shadow (Extra Mystery), Rebuke Undead, +1 level to divine caster level, +1 level to mystery caster level.
2. Animate Dark Servant, +1 level to divine caster level, +1 level to mystery caster level.
3. Channel Shadow (Resist Negative Energy), +1 level to divine caster level, +1 level to mystery caster level.
4. Bonus Fundamental, +1 level to divine caster level, +1 level to mystery caster level.
5. Channel Shadow (Negative Energy Healing), +1 level to divine caster level, +1 level to mystery caster level.
6. Create Dark Servant, +1 level to divine caster level, +1 level to mystery caster level.
7. Channel Shadow (Negate Critical Hit), +1 level to divine caster level, +1 level to mystery caster level.
8. Bonus Fundamental, +1 level to divine caster level, +1 level to mystery caster level.
9. Channel Shadow (Negate Attack), +1 level to divine caster level, +1 level to mystery caster level.
10. Create Greater Dark Servant, +1 level to divine caster level, +1 level to mystery caster level.

Channel Shadow (Su). The Shadow Priest can channel negative energy into shadow magic for a variety of effects.
At 1st level, the Shadow Priest can cast a mystery that he knows by spending a number of rebuke undead attempts equal to the level of the mystery.
At 3rd level, the Shadow Priest can spend a rebuke undead attempt as an immediate action and gain immunity to negative energy effects for 1 round.
At 5th level, the Shadow Priest can spend a rebuke undead attempt as an immediate action and heal from negative energy effects for 1 round, as if he were undead.
At 7th level, the Shadow Priest can spend a rebuke undead attempt as an immediate action and negate the extra damage from a critical hit or sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish attack.
At 9th level, the Shadow Priest can spend a rebuke undead attempt as an immediate action and negate the damage from any single attack, be it melee, ranged, or from a spell, spell-like effect, supernatural, or extraordinary effect.

Rebuke Undead (Su). Shadow Priest levels stack with cleric levels for the purposes of rebuking undead.

Animate Dark Servant (Sp). At 2nd level, undead creatures created by the Shadow Priest's animate dead spells gain the Dark creature template from page 158 of the Tome of Magic.

Bonus Fundamental (sp). At levels 4 and 8, the Shadow Priest gains the ability to choose an additional fundamental, or the ability to use a fundamental he currently knows 3 more times per day.

Create Dark Servant (Sp). At 6th level, undead creatures created by the Shadow Priest's create undead spells gain the Dark creature template from page 158 of the Tome of Magic.

Create Greater Dark Servant (Sp). At 10th level, undead creatures created by the Shadow Priest's greater create undead spells gain the Dark creature template from page 158 of the Tome of Magic.

SmiloDan, Tue, Apr 21, 2009, 11:24 PM Flag | Reply

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Thanks for the feedback! :-)

The Dark creature template adds a big bonus to Hide and Move Silently, +10 to Speed (all forms of movement), Cold Resist 10, LLV, Darkvision 60 feet, and Hide in Plain Sight.

I see their role as a combination social specialist (Bluff/Intimidate/Sense Motive) and scout (Hide/Move Silently, plus divinations) and master of minions (undead, summoned shadow elementals, etc.), leading from the back, with battle field control tactics too (especially some of the mysteries).

There is a 3rd level mystery called flicker that lets you teleport a short distance as an immediate action once a round for your level in rounds; if you teleport away from an attack, there is a 50% chance it misses. Maybe use a version of that for the Negate hit? Or maybe become incorporeal for at just the right moment, like Umbral Body? Or even incorporeal for 1 round? That way, there is a 50% chance magic weapons hit, and ghost touch and force effects are still useful.

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--SmiloDan, Is it possible to modify this into a 20 level class, I like your gloomblade and I've made a shadow ranger type you may like. I don't know if I can really reply to this old thread but I'm a tryin'.

SmiloDan, Is it possible to modify this into a 20 level class, I like your gloomblade and I've made a shadow ranger type you may like. I don't know if I can really reply to this old thread but I'm a tryin'.

verminaard wrote:

Wow, a whole bunch of responses a week later! I like your ideas Mikhaila and Kurt. As far as the 30' goes (to others), 30' isn't very far. You zero a fifle at 300 meters (or roughly 900'). A ranger archer is supposed to be the ultimate archer, why would he only be firing it as far as the neighbor's house? A bow can fire out to 10 range increments, perhaps 30' should be the range for a "sneak attack" but a sneak attack and a sniper shot are two different animals.

The 30' (or at most 60') limit for precision damage is for the reasons I outlined in my real world arguements before. Watch the Mythbusters episode about splitting an arrow. Arrows undulate and warp in flight. Arrows are orders of magnitude slower than bullets, and have more surface area and thus are affected much more by even minor atmospheric disturbances. The effect of those disturbances will be exponentially worse the further the arrow has to fly.

Hitting a man-sized target at 100' is not too difficult. Even hitting one at 1000' is possible. With magical assistance (Distance enhancement) you can get it even further, and with specialized training (Far Shot feat, and others) you can get better at hitting things further away. However, due to the *random* oscillations of the arrow in flight, plus all the slight disturbances in the air, you cannot hit *exactly* where you want, *every* single time. Which is what precision damage is.

Look up any archery sight online. it would appear that 30- 40 yards is pretty common to zero a bow. That is, MOST shooters can place 3-5 arrows in a 3 inch circle at 30- 40 yards. That works out to about 90- 120'. That is precision in theory and practice. Therefore getting a critical hit in optimal range 60'- 70' shortbow and 100'- 110' longbow (actual possible ranges according to rules being 600'- 700' and 1000'- 1100' respectively) shouldn't be all that fantastical, considering having the prerequisite precise shot and far shot related feats, (and this is a fantasy game). I'm not trying to add on 10d6 here but double damage criticals. Even at higher levels stacked with the vital strike feats this would certainly not unbalance a game, considering that it couldn't be used as a full round attack action.

verminaard wrote:

I have scoured these threads for something akin to this but most are skirmish/sneak attack/sudden strike/ambush related.

I want to make a new feat (or combination of feats) for a ranger archer for sniping.
Would it be terribly unbalanced to make a feat(s) that would give a attack and damage bonus equal to character level and at full weapon range? (Instead of at 30' as for sneak attack type abilities).
It would certainly be less powerful than any sneak attack type ability (particularly at higher levels).
Also it will be limited to single attack per round (like skirmish)with some movement possible but stack damage with the vital strike tree. I could also add it in as a class specific skill/ feat.
In my present campaign I'm not using prestige classes but modifying existing base classes for flavor to suit the players and their respective play styles and my currant campaign.
What are your thoughts on this, homebrew gurus? Thanks in advance.

Actually, there's a really well written, concise feat in the Campaign Setting under the Kyonin writeup. Found this, thought of you.

Alas Mikhaila, I don't have that book yet. However I do like the critical type feat listed above. Thanks all.

The point of tying it to favored enemies made it significantly more restricted. Separating it from that, I'd suggest adding Far Shot as an additional prerequisite. Oh, and remember, you still have to confirm the crit.

While far shot would be sensible to add to a character with this feat, it only reduces penalty for using ranged weapons beyond it's optimal full range increment. The feat is based on hitting with precision at the normal range increment (60'- 70' w/ shortbow and 100'- 110' w/ longbow). I do see your point and will add it in.

I understand the point of favored enemies, but not sure I agree to the necessity for limiting all of the ranger's abilities to pre defined enemies and terrains. Not saying anyone else should feel that way, just that I am not relying on it in my personal campaign.

And yes, you would still need to confirm the critical hit. Here goes...

Sniper Shot(ex):

Prerequisites: +6 BAB, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Far Shot

A Ranger with this feat may spend an attack action to fire a single well placed shot at one full range increment. This attack (Fired with a +2 bonus), is an automatic critical if it hits but must still be confirmed as such.

Thank you for your input

Wow, a whole bunch of responses a week later! I like your ideas Mikhaila and Kurt. As far as the 30' goes (to others), 30' isn't very far. You zero a fifle at 300 meters (or roughly 900'). A ranger archer is supposed to be the ultimate archer, why would he only be firing it as far as the neighbor's house? A bow can fire out to 10 range increments, perhaps 30' should be the range for a "sneak attack" but a sneak attack and a sniper shot are two different animals.

I apologize for making so many rule mistakes in my posts from last week here, I worked out that other class (ranger shadow dancer type base class) and I believe my brain was fried.(Like writing spring attack instead of shot on the run, etc.)

OP by Mikhaela Burnett 313:
Sniper Shot(EX)
By studying their target and maintaining a certain distance and detachment, the Ranger may add x amount of damage. This damage is modified by critical on a 1:1 basis. (ie a x3 modifier would provide 3x damage on a confirmed critical hit.

OP by kyrt-ryder: FEAT-
Sniper's Shot:
Prerequisites: +6 BAB, Rapid Shot, Many Shot
Benefit: A Ranger with this feat may spend a standard action to fire a single shot at one of his favored enemies. This attack (Fired with a +2 bonus), is an automatic critical if it hits.

I'm not really using the favored enemy/ terrain class feature. You both imply using critical hit rules for damage. That would work well. I will improvise onto yours...

Sniper Shot(ex):
Prerequisites: +6 BAB, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot
A Ranger with this feat may spend an attack action to fire a single well placed shot at one full range increment. This attack (Fired with a +2 bonus), is an automatic critical if it hits.

It's an attack action which means it should stack with the vital strike tree, and also cannot be used with full round attacks. Is that workable to Y'all?

Something similar to Sneak Attack yet doesn't stack with it would be in my opinion ideal. Don't want Rogues with Sneak Attack and a sniper feat doing 1d8 + boatload of d6 + boatload of other damage. Not even sure if I'd want Rogues able to Sneak Attack at 30 feet then back off further and end up with the same bonus.

It wouldn't stack with sneak attack. Could make it a ranger archer only feat so this wouldn't really occur. Say at 10th level a rogue firing one arrow would do 1d6+10d6+vital strike. A ranger archer at 10th would in the same situation get 1d6+10+vital strike. The rogue would obviously win hands down in that contest but it would make the ranger a little more fun to roleplay. Maybe even +2/ lvl. But no attack bonus along with it. I wrote that by mistake in the OP. It also wouldn't work with full round attacks which have rapidshot and manyshot. On the other hand the SA does work for full round attacks, although I'm not completely sure why...

verminaard wrote:

I have scoured these threads for something akin to this but most are skirmish/sneak attack/sudden strike/ambush related.

I want to make a new feat (or combination of feats) for a ranger archer for sniping.
Would it be terribly unbalanced to make a feat(s) that would give a attack and damage bonus equal to character level and at full weapon range? (Instead of at 30' as for sneak attack type abilities).
It would certainly be less powerful than any sneak attack type ability (particularly at higher levels).
Also it will be limited to single attack per round (like skirmish)with some movement possible but stack damage with the vital strike tree. I could also add it in as a class specific skill/ feat.
In my present campaign I'm not using prestige classes but modifying existing base classes for flavor to suit the players and their respective play styles and my currant campaign.
What are your thoughts on this, homebrew gurus? Thanks in advance.

Back when I mistakenly thought Vital Strike multiplied all but str damage, I was convinced that was the ultimate sniper feat. RAW, however, it does not seem to be the case.

I would love, however, if VS were multipling everything. My build for a fighter (sniper) using a hvy crossbow netted over 100 dng every round...

The ranger archer will only do X amount of damage unless he/ she is using a full attack action. The rogue sneak attack is a powerful damage dealer. But to make a ranger archer without the skirmish/ SA ability that wants to be a move and shoot (and move again with spring attack) instead of using a full round attack will do minimal damage, even with the vital strike tree.

I have scoured these threads for something akin to this but most are skirmish/sneak attack/sudden strike/ambush related.
I want to make a new feat (or combination of feats) for a ranger archer for sniping.
Would it be terribly unbalanced to make a feat(s) that would give a attack and damage bonus equal to character level and at full weapon range? (Instead of at 30' as for sneak attack type abilities).
It would certainly be less powerful than any sneak attack type ability (particularly at higher levels).
Also it will be limited to single attack per round (like skirmish)with some movement possible but stack damage with the vital strike tree. I could also add it in as a class specific skill/ feat.
In my present campaign I'm not using prestige classes but modifying existing base classes for flavor to suit the players and their respective play styles and my currant campaign.
What are your thoughts on this, homebrew gurus? Thanks in advance.

Hydro, I love your rendition here. I'm kind of waiting for the kobold quarterly to come out that Marc Radle 81 mentioned before I finalize my make. When is it coming out?
As far as bleeding attack from thieves' abilities to sneak attack with this ranger rebuild, I'd imagine it could also grant a bonus to track if you hit someone with it. Perhaps it could go under your ranger lore, along with the evasion or uncanny dodge skills. The viridian bond ability is great, but I was thinking that in place of the fast healing progression that perhaps your natural armor and stealth could progress. Perhaps as a choice of either when undertaking the ritual. Have you thought any more on this? Thanks

BTW, I like much of your houserule stuff as well Hydro. Keep it up!! Good stuff.

Hydro, I made another thread for this since I figure I've derailed this thread for you quite enough. I have to go for much of the day myself, again would like to hear your ideas regarding the variant scout ranger class though. Will try to keep this thread ranger strong. Not a regular forumite type myself, so apologies for the tangents.

Hey guys & gals, I was perusing through the cleric stuff and I like everything for the most part. My question ,however, regards substituting domain powers for feats, skills, or more likely channeling feats. For instance, Death domain gives a bleed power, why not the command undead feat? Elemental based domains likewise could offer the elemental channel feat. War domain could get channel smite, and so on and so forth.

I like the cleric class and the domain based spell lists as they are, I just thing the powers are somewhat underwhelming and would rather apply their space to appropriate channeling ability or other feats/ skills. After all, that is the bread and butter of clericdom.

To not unbalance anything, would you propose 1 channel feat to substitute for both powers of each domain? I believe that this is actually an appropriate return on the traditional cleric's channeling but customized a bit for domain specialization.

Thoughts, opinions, flamestrikes...

True dat!!

...And by the way, I love kittens...

"I just see orcs as more coping with nature and destroying it if it gets in their way than trying to be at one with it. Such as with animals or plants"

Humans completely do the same thing. (sad) I'd assume they try a little harder than my idea of an orc though, or pretend better at least.
I'm still trying to make the orc a bit more primal than them.

And Hydro, any more ideas on what I should do to my ranger?

I'll change the SA down to 6.

And what do you think about giving the cleric death domain command undead feats instead of their given powers?

And thanks again.

I was just trying to be humorous about the kittens. I just see orcs as more coping with nature and destroying it if it gets in their way than trying to be at one with it. Such as with animals or plants. Your ideas are great and I'm not one upping you at all. And I mentioned boars because they are the perfect mount for orcs. As I stated, I just see them treating them as slaves more than as friends... that doen't mean I'm right and you're wrong, it's campaign specific to how I view their interaction as a race to animals, plants and the outside world. I was specifically speaking of my campaign and encouraging OP to consider his/ her own campaign to work as a guide to decide what is wanted to be achieved in their class generation.

Hey Freehold DM, Hydro's CT ranger can easily be used to be non spell casting and he has some real good ideas. I've always wanted to make a ranger/ thief mix without the ability sets of either (like the trap stuff for rogues or the favored enemies/ terrains/ (I'm using a military campaign and my characters will constantly be sent to different terrains to deal with different enemies, so they probably wouldn't have this specialization anyways, although I of course could use these) and animal stuff, but orc rangers probably aren't going to be cuddling too much with kittens and such...boars are good steeds for them but do you think they would be friends? To make my ideal type of classes (for my campaign) is just like mixing up any other classes. Rules are just guidelines to follow and bend as you need to fit to your campaign. It's a game you need to make sure you and your players are going to enjoy their characters and have fun, hopefully without bending the rules too much or writing a book yourself. What version of the class are you looking to achieve?

"In one of my upcoming games, I'm going to use half-orc stats for orcs (as per the Beta "noble savages"). Ages ago, an evil warlord learned to modify the orcs to make them stronger but stupider and more vulnerable to sunlight; orcs can still be warped in this way, and can even choose to do so to themselves. There are savage rivalries between those who embrace this path vs. those who adhere to the (even) older ways and live naturally".

-Thanks Hydro!!

As is for now, I basically have to use the 1/2 orc stats for PF for my orcs. I'm giving them +2 str +2 con & -2 int. They're N/E. I left orc ferocity as is and darkvision 60' with +2 intimidate and proficiency with 2 weapons as per clan (2hd morningstar and ranseur for their clan). There are no 1/2 races in my game (except for the hobbit/ halfling). I'm waiting for the monster book to see what else... I don't have the "Noble Savages" thingie. The elves and dwarves (and everyone else)are always out to kill all the orcs so I figured I'd turn the age old table on them for the underdogs. My orcs are not without all cunning and thoughts of retribution for their eternal persecution and their belief that they are the sentient race that should rule their planet. Ha elves and dwarves!!

I've got "The Sagas Of The Icelanders" by Penguin Press. I brought it on a deployment and it took forever to read. Well over 700 pages of sagas. It read like a fiction book and was better than most that I've read. Unbelievable more people are not aware of these literary gems of the European past (asides from the Arthurian Legends). I've read other sagas not included in it too, but... Amazing book- 18 sagas!!

Go with the skald and have him/ her chant songs whilst fighting to bestow bonuses/ penalties to others. And the sagas are all very good reads.

Is the editing tool/ paragraph script a bit off on this forum? My paragraphs keep resizing when they post?!

I guess I could cut it down to 6 SA and change the 20 lvl power...(sad). And I know it is similar to your build, which is why I asked for your input, we're on a similar page, just different flavors of rangerdom.

Are you gonna hit up orc for your race redux? The guys in my campaign are all special forces type orcs who want to covertly but aggressively kick all the elves and dwarves in the teeth. They'll do the aggressive stealth and assassination type and the army will come clean up the mess after.

I'm trying to make everyone single class only which is why I'm aggressively mixing classes a bit so my players will still have what
they want in characters. Two are currently fighters, one will be the
ranger/ sniper and one is a cleric. They will all be stealthy to an
extent. The cleric trickery domain powers and spells fit ideally,
whereas the death domain would make more sense if it had the command
undead feat as it's power (IMO). They all have 2hd morningstars as
melee weapons (clan thing) and shortbows. (They also like to cut off
their enemies faces and use them as masks). I may get more players at a
later date.

Like I said, it's been 14 years since I DM'd or played. Since then
I've had the opportunity to experience combat and conflict first hand.
So I try to apply ideas and tactics I have learned to enhance the game and add to it's realism/ physics factor.

I like making classes to suit my campaigns anyways. Cheerio.

BTW thanks for your opinion HYDRO. Are you going to do a version of cleric because I would look forward to your interpretation. That's going to be my next project.

Secondly, are there any classless system rules or updated guidelines for making your own classes? I know I had something a decade ago or so but I don't even remember what it was. (I haven't really been playing since 2E). Thanks and keep up the good work!!

It's also only 2 special abilities better than a ranger with spell progression and the above listed discrepancies. The 11- 20 levels are a little light on abilities but they're not necessary there. I tried to spread the abilities out and/ or line them up with ranger and rogue respectively.

It's supposed to be a mostly rogue/ ranger mix. I threw in the fast mvmt because the military scout types are always running all over the place far out beyond everyone else. I was hoping it wasn't too overpowered, it's just so difficult to make this concept without making a fighter thief at 10/10 max.

I left out the favoured enemies, wild empathy, favoured terrains,magic, and quarries. Bah!! How many sneak attacks should I leave out to not be too overpowered in your opinion?

Hey Hydro, not to derail your thread seeing as you've done a fantastic

job with your vision of rangerdom... but I've made a variant of the

class for my militant campaign and wonder if you could gauge it up for

me. My goal is to make a roguish ranger military scout. The class has

no magic and is built around stealth and combat feats. I've taken out

the animal kinship abilities and extreme familiarization to specific

regions (terrains) because the character will be moving around a lot to

wherever he/ she would be needed. . If the archer path is taken, I

would add in your sneak attack benefit for it. I would also allow for

the 2 hd. weapon fighting specializations which I believe have been

listed elsewhere previously. Without as much description as you've done

it is currently as follows:

1st level- sneak attack +1d6, track, fast movement

2nd level- combat style feat

3rd level- sneak attack +2d6, ruggedness

4th level- bleeding attack

5th level- sneak attack +3d6, uncanny dodge

6th level- combat style feat

7th level- sneak attack +4d6, woodland stride

8th level- fast stealth, swift tracker

9th level- sneak attack +5d6

10th level- combat style feat, evasion

11th level- sneak attack +6d6, improved uncanny dodge

12th level- camouflage

13th level- sneak attack +7d6

14th level- combat style feat

15th level- sneak attack +8d6

16th level- improved evasion

17th level- sneak attack +9d6, hide in plain sight

18th level- combat style feat

19th level- sneak attack +10d6

20th level- master strike

"Yes, this (potentially) increases the range at which you may sneak-attack someone. "One range increment" means the range increment of your weapon: for instance, a ranger with a heavy crossbow could deal sneak-attack damage to someone up to 120 feet away."

Thank you for this clarification. Like I already stated, I believe that this general idea is long overdue and applies especially well to the ranged specialist ranger.

Good job!!

Arrows from the Trees (ex): A ranger using a ranged weapon may sneak-attack foes up to one range increment (rather than 30 feet) away. She suffers only a -10 penalty to stealth checks made to hide after attacking (rather than the usual -20)

Sorry if this is a foolish question, but specifically what is meant by "one range increment"?

I like your ideas and will probably use them or incorporate some of your ideas into my build I'm working on. I also quite like "ruggedness".

Do you mean extending the sneak attack range with a ranged weapon, (which I think is a good idea especially if you are going the ranged specialist route) or are you simply rewording it?

verminaard wrote:

Don't sorcerers and wizards have the same skill ranks/ level? Sorry, not following yet. (We don't use either much).

Prime stats make the difference here. Wizards is int, Sorc is cha.

Gotcha on the sorc/ wizard thing. (Low magic campaign). I agree on the 4 point/ level thing. Need to think about it before houseruling it, though. Am keeping the perception as is for now.

Don't sorcerers and wizards have the same skill ranks/ level? Sorry, not following yet. (We don't use either much).

concerro wrote:

verminaard wrote:

I don't understand why you would need to be a roguish class to have perception as a class skill. Couldn't a trained fighter type have exclusive use of his god given senses? Perhaps this is how it's been all along, but I just can't justify any cleric, fighter, paladin, sorcerer or wizard not being able to utilize their senses without the justification of devoting outrageous amounts of skill points dumped into this. A high level fighter or paladin should be able to notice a low level thief sneaking about without having to spend their menial amounts of skill points all in this one. Perhaps I will house rule it though. Sorry for the rant.

I had the same issue in 3.5. Even commoners had spot, but the fighter didn't.

I just checked. The commoner gets perception in pathfinder also.

Commoners are like dear, eyes on the side of the head because they are prey. If they don't see if coming they are dead. Fighters are hunters, eyes forward, and they have survival to track those pesky commoners down.

It's better then in 3.5, at least you can take the skill now without paying double. All an inclass skill gives you is a +3 to use it. Better, not perfect. I really think fighters, clerics, wizards all should get 4 skill points/level base always have thought they needed that.

+1 to the 4 skill points/ level. That would definitely help out a bit.

Thanks Krigare, again useful input. I will probably keep it as written. Although one thing I still find a little odd is that perception is a wisdom based skill and clerics also don't get it as a class skill. They are generally the epitome of intuition and wisdom. I guess it won't unbalance gameplay much and my players are playing 3 fighter/ rogues (with 1 or 2 designated snipers) and a fighter/ cleric. So even with the cleric type at a disadvantage here, as a whole they won't be. Again thanks for the advice. I kind of felt like I had unknowingly slapped somebody's Momma from a few of the replies to my original query.

There are valid reasons that certain classes gain Peception as a class (with a bonus) and these reasons are well balanced.

Definition:
Perception is a Wisdom based skill, and Wisdom affects common sense, awareness, and intuition. It "allows you to notice fine details and alert you to danger."

Being a Roque/Thief is about mastering your surroundings, and often about taking advantage of those surrounding where the surroudings are 'society'. (Even an adventuring rogue has all the skills for dealing with society.)

Being a fighter is not about mastering your surroundings, it is about mastering oneself and the physical environment of ones immediate encounter - (i.e. winning the battle and overcoming an opponent through direct confrontation using skill/strength, or overcoming the obstacle (swim/climb/ride).
[Note: While being on guard duty or being a Scout may still require the senses, they are not applied the same way by different classes. A soldier warrior scout is looking at the big picture, the battle, the opponent, the opportunity for confrontation and master over the opponent. In contrast, the best guard would be a roque, who would have a better understanding of what it takes to get past himself (Hide/Move Silently] and therefore since he has those two skills, his ability to percieve/detect those two skill would be better as he has a more innate understanding of them.[/b] Fighter, with their 'inward' focus on mastering themsevles and applying themselves does not lend itself to having a better Perception than Rogues, who themselves are about mastering their environment and people in their surroudings (a very extroverted application of their skill set).

Being a Magic User (Wizard/Sorcerer) is about unlocking the secrets of magic or of ones innate talents. In either case, perception of the outside world and unlocking it is not as important as overcoming the intellectual puzzles.

Thank you Chovesh, that is the kind of answer I was looking for. I think the fighters in my campaign are probably all multiclassing with rogue anyway. We're doing a militant campaign as spec-op type characters. I agree that a roguish mindset is ideal for counteracting it (it takes a thief...). I guess I kind of wish that the spot/ listen checks weren't lumped into this skill.

I prefer that all enemies and players in my campaign have a decent chance at detecting stealth (not secret doors and traps). It makes a high level rogue more fearsome with his/ her stealth capacities and a low level rogue more apt to fail at it. This seems appropriate to me, and makes succeeding on the skill checks on either side a bit more rewarding.

But I appreciate you explaining in a rational fashion the devil's advocate side of the skill. Thanks!!

verminaard wrote:

Just as an aside, the fighter depicted in the core rulebook appears quite scout like and doesn't appear to be encased in sheet metal at all.

Valeros, the iconic fighter, in the picture is wearing half-plate (breastplate covering chainmail) and in his stats he wears chainmail. How is this a scout?

Skills are easier to get than before in PRPG, the only advantage of having a class skill is the +3 bonus. If you really want rogues to be detected more often, just reduce their Stealth DC due to many many environmental factors you can use.

Different classes are good (and spend time training) at different things. Not all classes are specialized looking for things such as secret doors and traps, and noticing (and remembering!) small details on people, places and thing. Rogues spend time watching, looking and detecting things other people wouldn't notice, I think they deserve the meager +3 bonus as a class skill.

If I were a scout I would probably go with a breastplate. It would be quiet, protective, and not too heavy. I believe many rogues wear mithril plates. This doesn't necessarily make them less perceptive. Although I can see applying a penalty for using large helmets. As was pointed out earlier, even commoners have the perception class skill.

I'm not trying to make rogues easier to detect, I'm just asking for an unbiased opinion on why this is not an across the board class skill. Spotting and listening are traits of this skill. Perception covers the 5 senses that we all have. Just because someone trains more at fighting than picking a lock doesn't seem a good reason to have or not have this as a class skill. Soldiers are taught to be perceptive. As that is one of their main jobs. Apparently you have never been one, or you would be aware of that.

So the main reasoning is, because classes have to be different. If that works for you then fantastic. Don't get all righteous and juvenile at me. Thanks for stating the same answers already provided by others and striving to be more self righteous than they. I believe differently than you and well, that's reality.

verminaard wrote:

If a fighter did not take the special skill feat, he would have to be at least 4th level to have a chance at noticing a 1st level rogue sneaking (1 skill rank + 3 class skill bonus.) Am I correct here? So a standard guard (level 1 - 4)doing his guarding type duties would be completely incapable of noticing a rogue sneaking by him. Spotting, listening, and smelling are senses everyone is born with. I just really don't understand why this would be the case.

No your not correct, the fighter would have a less than even chance (probably) but still a chance. And guards tend to take 10, giving the Rogue a 10+ 1 (perception) + ? (say 1, Wisdom) score to beat: 12 or higher with a roll 1d20 + 4 (class skill stealth) + 3 or 4? DEX. A good chance but not 100%. And as pointed out before as there are no cc skills, the chance is not that far behind 50% (ability scores, not withstanding); the 'percerptioner' [;-)] can add Skill Focus or one of the traits which give perception as a class skill :-)

I feel the lack of cc skills now means only those classes that spend their time scouting (Rogue, ranger and...maybe..monk) should get Perception; not people who spend their time practicing toe-to-toe fighting while enclosed is sheet metal!

That was very inciteful mach1.9 pants. Thanks so much.Guess it will be houseruled then. Just as an aside, the fighter depicted in the core rulebook appears quite scout like and doesn't appear to be encased in sheet metal at all.

I haven't played since 2E. I played extensively from the inception of the game through 2E. Everyone could search as an action back then, I believe. And this is certainly not a rant against Paizo, rather an observation after reviewing the rules.

If a fighter did not take the special skill feat, he would have to be at least 4th level to have a chance at noticing a 1st level rogue sneaking (1 skill rank + 3 class skill bonus.) Am I correct here? So a standard guard (level 1 - 4)doing his guarding type duties would be completely incapable of noticing a rogue sneaking by him. Spotting, listening, and smelling are senses everyone is born with. I just really don't understand why this would be the case.

I don't understand why you would need to be a roguish class to have perception as a class skill. Couldn't a trained fighter type have exclusive use of his god given senses? Perhaps this is how it's been all along, but I just can't justify any cleric, fighter, paladin, sorcerer or wizard not being able to utilize their senses without the justification of devoting outrageous amounts of skill points dumped into this. A high level fighter or paladin should be able to notice a low level thief sneaking about without having to spend their menial amounts of skill points all in this one. Perhaps I will house rule it though. Sorry for the rant.

Wouldn't shot on the run negate the sniping penalty issue, since you are restealthing after moving to a different location? It seems to me that the penalty applies to restealthing in the same location (since you just gave away your position)as your move action. Shot on the run basically gives you an additional move actions and stealth is part of a move action.

Correct me if I'm wrong,but with vital strike and shot on the run a stealthed character with sneak attack can: be stealthed, move and attack, and restealth with no penalties. A lot of extra damage can be had with the sneak attack and deadly aim with vital strike. Add wind/ lightening stance to this combo (for +20%/ 50% concealment when moving) and you have a very powerful ranged attacker.

verminaard wrote:

Can a higher lvl Fighter/ Thief with the Fighter armor bonuses with max dex bonus wear medium/heavy armor then?

I don't see why not. With the lowered armor check penalty I could easily see a high level fighter/rogue wearing mithril full plate with nearly no penalty to skills and no movement restrictions.

This could make for the ultimate assassin type character if made properly.Looking forward to receiving my book!

Can a higher lvl Fighter/ Thief with the Fighter armor bonuses with max dex bonus wear medium/ heavy armor then?