Paladin + Antipaladin Hybrid Class


Homebrew and House Rules


So, I'd been curious about designing a custom class, and starting off simple with a hybrid class, and very recently I became fed up with coming up with a Paladin of Pharasma NPC for my campaign that worked appropriately. So at this time I've considered crafting my own Paladin class able to worship Neutral deities. So I decided to design a hybrid class with Paladin & Antipaladin as the parent classes, I suppoooose that has to be Any Neutral (or some way to word it so that a character with this class could be LN, CN, NG, or NE, but not N, considering a paladin has to be convictive in some way)

Good starting question: What would be a good name for this class? While I really, really, really want it to retain "Paladin" in its name, the current placeholder name I've begun using while I design it further is "Midknight".

What main obstacles does such a class have, that unbalance it from Paladin and/or Antipaladin? Any advice by chance?

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I'd say the biggest obstacle you're going to run into is that the class isn't going to be able to distinguish itself from the Paladin class and the Antipaladin archetype (yes, it's really just an archetype of the Paladin class). You should instead consider pulling in a couple powers from another class, like the Warpriest or Shaman, maybe.


Though more frequently, I've seen Antipaladin fall into the classification (even in official Paizo sources) of Alternate Class, whereas Archetype is a different category. Regardless, in this case, I'm going to treat it as a class. So being able to be Any Neutral and worship plenty more deities and prooobably have differing class features in the same vein as Clerics being able to Channel either Positive Energy, Negative Energy, or their choice depending on their alignment and/or deity doesn't make the class a bit overpowered compared to the parent classes?

I'd considered making it a hybrid prestige-like class in that in order to put a level into this class, you have to be both an ex-paladin and ex-antipaladin.

I will definitely look into Warpriest. What about Shaman feels right for the job?

Perhaps something more deity specific, such as a class feature that functions like Deific Obedience, or a favored enemy/enemies appropriate to the deity, or a Shaman-like familiar that must be the deity's sacred animal.

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Well I was thinking that, since it's being very deity-specific, you could include a spirit guide of some kind that gives advice directly from Pharasma, or something like that.

Basically, I worry that you're just making a neutral Paladin archetype, which I distinguish from a hybrid class. A hybrid class should have at least one if not multiple NEW class abilities that distinguish it strongly from either of its base classes. Pulling ideas from other hybrid classes that have a divine component might be a good way to achieve that.

I don't think you need them to be both an ex-paladin and an ex-antipaladin... those are two very extreme belief scales and I think it would put undue burden on the player to roleplay that all out, even just as a backstory.


Alternate Classes are merely more fleshed out archetypes.

You're really just talking about a paladin that isn't LG and instead channel some other aligned force.

However, between Tyrant Antipaladin, Grey Paladin, and Insinuator Antipaladin I think we have most of the bases covered.

If fact, I think you could do your whole thing as an Insinuator, or slightly modifying it. And by slightly modifying I mean change alignment from any evil which expands the option for what Outsider the Insinuator can invoke a bond with. Which would expand how all options work.

This would allow for you to on a daily basis change between good, evil, lawful, and chaotic (depending on character alignment).

I would suggest that the alignment requirement be any non-true neutral. So that they can't cover all alignments (would be too strong). But you end up being able to smite everything but your own alignment.


Yay! Paramanders/Paremandyrs! http://members.tripod.com/lord_eadric/paladins/paladins.html

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Claxon wrote:

Alternate Classes are merely more fleshed out archetypes.

You're really just talking about a paladin that isn't LG and instead channel some other aligned force.

However, between Tyrant Antipaladin, Grey Paladin, and Insinuator Antipaladin I think we have most of the bases covered.

If fact, I think you could do your whole thing as an Insinuator, or slightly modifying it. And by slightly modifying I mean change alignment from any evil which expands the option for what Outsider the Insinuator can invoke a bond with. Which would expand how all options work.

This would allow for you to on a daily basis change between good, evil, lawful, and chaotic (depending on character alignment).

I would suggest that the alignment requirement be any non-true neutral. So that they can't cover all alignments (would be too strong). But you end up being able to smite everything but your own alignment.

Out of curiosity, what is the Grey Paladin you mentioned? Is that from Paizo?


Marc Radle wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Alternate Classes are merely more fleshed out archetypes.

You're really just talking about a paladin that isn't LG and instead channel some other aligned force.

However, between Tyrant Antipaladin, Grey Paladin, and Insinuator Antipaladin I think we have most of the bases covered.

If fact, I think you could do your whole thing as an Insinuator, or slightly modifying it. And by slightly modifying I mean change alignment from any evil which expands the option for what Outsider the Insinuator can invoke a bond with. Which would expand how all options work.

This would allow for you to on a daily basis change between good, evil, lawful, and chaotic (depending on character alignment).

I would suggest that the alignment requirement be any non-true neutral. So that they can't cover all alignments (would be too strong). But you end up being able to smite everything but your own alignment.

Out of curiosity, what is the Grey Paladin you mentioned? Is that from Paizo?

It's new (from Ultimate Intrigue). Lets you be Lawful Neutral or Neutral Good apart from Lawful Good.


I know in this particular context I'm GM of a campaign to feature an NPC Paladin of Pharasma, but my goal is to maybe design a class that's in-between Paladin & Antipaladin (but is still pretty much a Paladin) that players can choose to play in future campaigns, so in this case, why alter Insinuator to be any (or any neutral, or any non-true neutral) instead of any evil when I ~can~ just alter Paladin to be any neutral/non-true neutral instead of Lawful Good?

In the same vein, I want to utilise an NPC who is an Avatar of Urgathoa, but the Third Party Cleric archetype "Avatar" could be better, perhaps I may make a custom NPC Class called Avatar (considering there is the Hybrid Class Swashbuckler and the Rogue archetype Swashbuckler) that functions similar to a prestige class (similar to Evangelist's Aligned Class feature) but incorporates everything a given deity has: alignment, favored enemies if they have any, favored weapon, sacred animal as animal companion/familiar but with appropriate creature type on top of that, and maybe even additional Shaman-like qualities to said animal, as well as being able to properly play the role of whatever classes are appropriate, like an Avatar of Norgorber being able to simultaneously be a Rogue or Assassin.


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I like the name Templar for a neutral Paladin, but I would probably keep it LN only personally.


Question in all this; What do you want them to champion as neutral paladins?

One who champions the river of souls?

One who champions their view of balance?


Claxon wrote:
Alternate Classes are merely more fleshed out archetypes.

I can't agree with you when we have archetypes like the Archeologist that replace nearly all of the bard features; so many fighter archetypes that replace most of bravery, trainings and masteries; or many other archetypes that completely turn the original theme on its head.

In comparison, the Antipaladin merely replace every paladin feature by a "evil" version of it. An exact mirror, level per level. Mercy ? Cruelty; Aura of justice ? Aura of vengeance.

If an alternate class is a "more fleshed out archetype", the antipaladin simply isn't that. It's a lazily-made evil paladin. Hell, even the Insinuator would be more of an alternate class than the Antipaladin.

On my end, I see Alternate Classes as archetypes in disguise; with the amount of class-ability theft that goes with some archetypes, even the ninja isn't unique enough to get a special label.

With that said, Werefoowolf, on the subject of the hybrid class : Cartmanbeck really hit the major issue - (nearly) all the hybrid classes aren't simply a mix of their parents, they each have unique abilities, as they should.

Given your stated goals, an hybrid class doesn't looks like it is what you want. What you want is simply a neutral-aligned paladin.

I believe that you could go with simply alterations like :
- Divine Target: at level 1, a neutral paladin designate a concept he personnaly war against. To do so, he choose a domain as his divine target. Any creature possessing this domain, as well as any creature primarily worshiping or associated with a god to which this domain belongs to are considered Divine Opponents of the neutral paladin.
- Detect Opponents: As detect evil, but detect Divine Opponents.
- Smite Opponents: As smite evil, but affect Divine Opponents instead of evil creatures, and creature being both outsiders and Divine Opponents instead of outsiders with the evil subtype.
- At level 2, the neutral paladin select either Positive Energy or Negative Energy (as a neutral cleric does). If he choses positive energy, he gains access to Lay on Hand, and afterward Mercies and Channel Positive Energy. If he choses negative energy, he gains access to Touch of Corruption, and afterward Cruelties and Channel Positive Energy
- Any time the neutral paladin gain an aura (level 3, 8, 11, 14 & 17), he may choose either the paladin or the antipaladin version of it. Alternatively, you could come up with a theme-specific list of auras.
- Et cetera

As an aside, you should read Unchained's section on alignement (and removing it).


So making this class option just an archetype feels wrong with Paladin and Antipaladin being separate classes with their own archetypes (I'm surprised Gray Paladin isn't an archetype shared by both Paladin & Antipaladin (but 1 version for Paladin and 1 for Antipaladin) so I don't feel quite right about it being an archetype of Paladin vs an archetype of Antipaladin.

As the closest equivalent of an Alternate Class, essentially making it function the way a neutral Cleric does, but I agree maybe it needs some exclusive class ceature, or something close. There is "Detect the Faitful" which is interesting... I can see Good deities promoting the elimination of evil forces, and Evil deities promoting the elimination of good forces, but for Neutral deities, I think it may work like Deific Obedience in that the Paladin in question would have Detect and Smite abilities semi-unique to them, in that a ___Paladin of Pharasma would have Lay on Hands and Smite Evil (or something like Smite Evil) and Channel Positive Energy, and in place of Detect Good or Evil, he/she would have Detect Undead. Unsure about how other Neutral deities would operate for a Paladin. Perhaps even the auras could be specialized.

For the Avatar NPC class, to simplify it, perhaps it would simply have the "must worship a deity" clause, "must be the SAME alignment" clause, profiency only with the deity's favored weapon, and a clause that states things like weapons have alignment and other types appropriate to the deity, and if said Avatar ever obtains a familiar/animal companion, it is always the same as the deity's sacred animal and has appropriate properties (like Celestial type, etc) perhaps also eventually gets access to all the domains the god has. Beyond that, the NPC can just pick up feats appropriate to the deity and related classes (like an Avatar of Norgorber getting a feat that bestows him Rogue or Assassin-like features) instead of the NPC Class itself being tailored to do that.

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Designing a class is really, really hard. You might be better off just making an archetype or using an existing class.


Aralicia wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Alternate Classes are merely more fleshed out archetypes.
I can't agree with you when we have archetypes like the Archeologist that replace nearly all of the bard features; so many fighter archetypes that replace most of bravery, trainings and masteries; or many other archetypes that completely turn the original theme on its head.

You can disagree if you want, but it's the truth. Alternate classes are really just archetypes, that got a slightly longer write-up than your average archetype.

Ninja for instance are allowed to take any Rogue archetypes if they have the correct class features to trade out. Samurai can take cavalier orders instead of Samurai orders.

Paizo stopped writing alternate classes, because they found archetypes were sufficient and merely caused confusion, like the ones that are the reason we're having this discussion now. It's why we only have 3 alternate classes, the Antipaladin, Ninja, and Samurai. Mechanically speaking it's not really important whether its an archetype or a alternate class.

Wayfinders

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ooh, I might be able to help! A couple years ago there was the (unfortunately and unexpectedly) final iteration of a Pathfinder Grab Bag Competition on another forum, a so-called "Teamwork Round" where we were randomly thrown into pairs and had to make coinciding stuff. My partner created a true neutral paladin/summoner hybrid called the Envoy of the Grey Guard. It can be found: Here!


Though I do now realize Pharasma doesn't have a Paladin/Antipaladin code/creed, likely for a reason, so I may just have to respect that and make said Pharasmin NPC an Inquisitor (Exorcist) or some other martial class with divine attributes who CAN worship Pharasma and fight Undead and such in her name. By chance, are their any "backdoor feats" that would allow a character to play very much akin to a Paladin while actually being a race eligible for Neutral-deity worship? Similar to a character getting a bloodline and being LIKE a Sorcerer thanks to taking the Eldritch Heritage feat without being a Sorcerer or Bloodrager. I've just accepted the character can't be a Paladin of Pharasma, but is there a simple enough way to blur the lines between Inquisitor and Paladin for example?

As for Avatar, I am still pursuing making such a named class an NPC Class that behaves more like a Prestige Class for Heroic NPCs to better represent a deity interacting with the party in the flesh. So a handful of clauses ensuring the NPC is as characteristic of the deity as possible, from alignment to favored weapon to sacred animal to domains to the colors they wear (okay, pretty sure besides armor proficiencies, wardrobe doesn't get that mechanical) perhaps gaining class features quickly to represent how much significance the deity has given this chosen form. Anything I've forgotten? Perhaps instead of Deific Obedience, the NPC should be portrayed as if they did regularly participate in the obedience (such as an Avatar of Pharasma having a plethora of bones in his or her inventory) Proficient with the facored weapon, weapon takes on alignment and other properties, Aligned Class like Evangelist, familiars/animal companions are automatically the deity's sacred animal and may or may not automatically be Celestial for example, and for fluff they do wear the deity's colors.

Question: Can a character retrain class levels into prestige class levels for prestige classes they've obtained.

Hmm, if not a Prestige NPC Class, I could see Avatar be a hybrid class of Shaman & Cleric or something, though then it would be very odd and stick out as a Class that essentially elevates you to be a god's avatar...


Might I suggest Champion of the Faith Warpriest for something to look at?


Hmm, I looked into the entry for Evangelist about Aligned Classes, and for Pharasma it listed Fighter, Inquisitor, Oracle, Sorcerer, and Witch. How do you give Fighter a more religiously fluffy mechanic besides simply using your martial skills to fight off undead and/or avenge a slain woman who was 'with child'? The NPC in question I'm wanting to make is a NG female Aasimar whose step siblings are all evil or semi-evil offspring of her witch stepmother (tiefling, skinwalker, half-drow, etc) and her occupation involves wearing clunky armor and shield fighting in Pharasma's name.

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You can still make a paladin of Pharasma. Unlike a cleric, paladins don't have a deity restriction. That's just a PFS houserule.

If you don't want to be a paladin, then choosing Deific Obedience is a good way to add religious flavor to your character.

A warpriest of Pharasma would actually make a really good dagger wielder. Sacred weapon would increase the damage die and Deific Obedience gives you a +2 attack roll bonus.


I guess one big question is: Why?

I mean, what about Pharasma makes her unavailable to Paladins? A Paladin isn't prevented from following a Neutral Deity as long as that deity doesn't work in Evil ways, but more importantly as long as the Paladin himself doesn't do Evil deeds. Pharasma wants her followers to take down the Undead and those who raise them, something Paladins can be rather good at.

Or in this case: A Paladin "of Pharasma" would most likely be a prominent Undead Hunter, out to deal with Necromancy and protect those who risk being harmed by it. They hunt down Undead and Necromancers whenever they find out about them, they give worship on days important to Pharasma's church, they help mothers give birth when they run upon them and they oversee funerals, and all in all they uphold the things important to Pharasma. Other than that, in regards to how much they follow different parts of Pharasma's tenets it's really all up in the air as long as they stay true to the core (Kill the Undead!) and stay Paladin-y.

I guess what I'm asking is: What is it you want to do with it that separates it from an ordinary Paladin or Anti-Paladin?

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She's the godess of fate and death, and those come in a 'indifferent to your plight' flavor. She does not care about the injustice or evil act that killed you, only about preserving the natural order and destroying those who would pervert it (undead and some outsiders).


As a means to an end, I just want a Paladin who worships Pharasma who hunts undead actively, and assists with the rest of Pharasma's cares passively (perhaps this character was the oldest and assisted her step mother with her childbirth of her mixed breed siblings)

In general, I WOULD like to design a class, hybrid classes seemed to be a logical place to start, and Paladin+Antipaladin seems like easier still.

However, main goal is cool heavily-armored dagger-wielding knight like character who reveres Pharasma and all she values.

My main solutions seem to be A) Make up a custom creed for a Paladin of Pharasma and say this Paladin is special and was actually chosen by Pharasma, hence the breaking the mold, and just BS it and say she can be a one-of-a-kind N (more so NG) Paladin of Pharasma or B) Make her a Fighter who worships Pharasma, and just give her Believer'S Boon, Deific Obedience, and/or any feat anyone can think of to give her Paladin and/or Warpriest features without being either class.

Sovereign Court

As someone already pointed out, you can do that as a NG/LN Gray Paladin, you can even smite non-evil creatures - for the cost of your auras being weakened and losing divine grace.


But it says: Alignment: A gray paladin can be lawful good, lawful neutral, or neutral good, though she must still follow a lawful good, neutral good, or lawful neutral deity.

Also, Pharasma doesn't have a Paladin/Antipaladin creed as most deities do who are worshipped by Paladins or Antipaladins.


I reitterate; You could have a Champion of the Faith Warpriest devoted to Pharasma. You can then be any alignment you want within one step of TN. You can detect your opposed alignment, smite your opposed alignment, and get abilities tied to your chosen deity. Given this is Pharasma and most Undead are Evil... Being Neutral Good or True Neutral with Good as your chosen alignment makes the most sense, as most of what she would want you to kill will fall under your smite. I would suggest at that point picking the Repose blessing as your second blessing, but that is my take.

Sovereign Court

Yeah, forgot that the deity must be LN/NG/LG.
How about a Zealot Vigilante?


So far, the best choice to accomplish what I want is Champion of the Faith Warpriest. How is a dagger-wielder better as a Warpriest again?

Ohh, I do like Zealot Vigilante either perhaps as a character for me to play in another campaign.... OR, idk how multiclassing works with Vigilante, but I could see a Zealot Vigilante in this campaign being a Pharasmin Monk in one persona, and a Norgorberite Assassin in another.


Werefoowolf wrote:

So far, the best choice to accomplish what I want is Champion of the Faith Warpriest. How is a dagger-wielder better as a Warpriest again?

Ohh, I do like Zealot Vigilante either perhaps as a character for me to play in another campaign.... OR, idk how multiclassing works with Vigilante, but I could see a Zealot Vigilante in this campaign being a Pharasmin Monk in one persona, and a Norgorberite Assassin in another.

Sacred Weapon. Basically, a Dagger wielded by a 1st level warpriest does 1d6 damage instead of 1d4. At 5th, it would deal 1d8. This goes all the way up to 2d8.


How about an Inquisitor of Pharasma who just refers to himself as a "Paladin". I've seen the idea done before with a LN "Paladin" of Asmodeus, using Bane to mimic the effects of Smite Evil. So your "Paladin" of Pharasma could replicate Smite using Bane(Undead) but also leverage evil or chaotic spells as needed and need not be a paragon of good and justice so much as a champion against the enemies of the natural order of life. Make the character female and she could even have Profession(midwifery).

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