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If they are "stealthing" everywhere then be aware the following applies.
If they move at more than half speed they take a -5 penalty on Stealth checks.
If your players want you to assume that they are ALWAYS "stealthing" then you can assume they are taking 10 on their stealth checks unless they declare a roll.
Players need some manner of cover or concealment in which to make Stealth checks. Otherwise they need the target to be distracted and remain so during the duration of the Stealth check (if a creature's passive perception aka 10 + Perception Modifier beats a PC's passive Stealth then autodetect!).
Remember: Anyone making a Perception check takes a -1 penalty for every 10 ft. between themselves and the Stealthed character.
Hope that helps.
Remember the first "The gamers"episode?
Nimble the rogue "But i sneak everywhere i go"
GM"NO you don't sneak when you have breakfast , you don't sneak when you are drinking in the local tavern or when you go to sleep in your inn etc etc..."
Stealth may only be attempted when it is important some one doesn't see the stealthy PC.
Also there are situations in which it is completly useless trying to use stealth, like in the middle of a market day in great cities, like Waterdeep or Absalom.When you are caught amongst thousands of other people everyone is hiding and no one is.
Start by telling them you are not a psychic, and that a GM shouldn't 'assume' anything about character actions that he is not specifically told about.
Also follow the stealth rules closely, they need concealment or cover to stealth, and remember concealment from darkness doesn't count against creatures with darkvision (and creatures with low-light vision treat shadowy illumination as one step brighter, so you can't stealth in it when observed by a creature with LLV either). Make sure that both you and your players are very familiar with the stealth rules, this will help all side involved when questions about being seen arise.
Finally remember to let their attempts to sneak around work sometimes (in fact set up situations where it is not only possible, but the best way to do something on occasion), otherwise they might start to feel like you are denying them a valid tactic or that they have wasted their skill points.
Hope that helps.
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Reminds me of a warlock character I had. One of his invocations was spider climb, and the GM and I came to the understanding that, when the environment made it practical, I WOULD be spider-climbing. Most because I wanted Einar to be as creepy as possible. And nothing says creepy like a warlock who refuses to walk on the floor.
Also I think your PCs will see how annoying they are when suddenly, everyone they are fighting is stealthing... and all have sneak attack ;)
I am reminded of The Gamers.
"You don't sneak around in church."
I think this comes up about once a month, doesn't it? More longtime posters can tell you.
In any case, stealth slows down all movement, and not everybody is very good at it. Without knowing the demographics of your party, I would say to allow the fighter types with heavy armor to go ahead and sneak all they want. When the noise they subsequently make upon failing attracts a flock of hungry owlbears, it may serve to convince them of their folly.
In all seriousness, not everybody is good at stealth, and you ought to play up the repercussions of that to illustrate this to them. As to those who are good at it, that's fine, and you cannot punish them for their caution, but you ought to make sure they understand how being stealthy slows them down, and there ought to be fair examples in the game of how it's not always practical.
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Let them. Give them the drop on some enemies. But if they aren't taking the -5 for moving faster than halfspeed, meaning they are slowly skulking along, have them get to the bad guys chamber only to find out they're too late to stop the ritual/sacrifice/bake sale. And have the villian taunt them with 'I did it 36 minutes ago'. :)
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Eh. If the party has invested enough into stealth to be collectively good at it, let them. Just make sure you follow the stealth rules, half speed, armor penalties, etc.]
They are only as stealthy as the worst guy in the group. If they all have great stealth then they have likely sacrificed something else.
It just gives the bad guys more time to buff if they know the PC's are nearby.
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That's another thing... combat is loud, enemies scream for help from their buddies, etc. Regardless of how carefully they sneak up to a door if they had a combat in a room it's almost assured the folks in the next room, or even 2 rooms down heard it (there are modifiers under perception). The players aren't going to know who heard what when they are sneaking around so they might get a nasty surprise occasionally.
Wait wait wait. The ENTIRE party has invested enough skills, declined to wear good armor, etc etc, to be viable at stealth?
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Have high-level NPCs that reasonably could spot them see them and call out to them, loudly asking what the hell they're doing skulking around town. In front of a crowd.
This. If PCs are constantly sneaking about town people will start to whisper, rumors will circulate and they may start to develop a reputation as 'shifty, sneaky, not real trustworthy' types. This will eventually have an impact on how NPCs interact with them.
While there has some good advice on the topic (namely "make sure they follow the rules") there could be another dimension to this problem and that is you (the GM).
Before you go all out heavy on your players ask yourself if anything you've done in the past could have instigated such a behavior. Do you always have your villains get a drop on the PCs? Do you play surprise rounds as normal rounds instead of "half-rounds"? Is surprise and sneaking generally a big must have in your adventures?
If yes you might come to the agreement that you tone this down and therefore the players do so too.
If not then simply make them stick to the rules as written. Stealth is snot very effective in Pathfinder if played with the RAW.
The thing with stealth is you look very suspicious if someone spots you. If you're just walking around, and someone looks you way, no problem (unless you're not supposed to be there). But if you are sneaking through town and a guard spots you, you look like a pickpocket/burglar/general ne'er-do-well, and then you're in trouble.
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Well, are you constantly springing ambushes on them if they don't? That's the reason nobody in my party wears anything heavier than a mithral breastplate. After getting jumped by skumm / drow / giant vermin / purple worms for the umpteenth time while trying to make our way to the next plot point, we started being sneaky by habit whenever we weren't sure what else might be around.
If they're just being paranoid and sketchy in/around town, I'd use the take 10 rules and occasionally throw in the high-Perception guardsmen mentioned above (or just have a suspicious guard with a dog & scent). Maybe have them coincidentally be near the scene of a crime or fit the description of a wanted criminal and have a little fun with it - to kick off a quest or a little mystery story to prove their innocence.
In the end, so as not to slow down gameplay (and also because we acquired a wizard in the party who can't seem to cast any spells outside the evocation school - he likes to pew pew), we started posting our rogue (with fast stealth & trap sense) about 100ft ahead of the party to serve as a kind of early warning system. If it speeds things up for your group, maybe you could suggest the same to them.
Honestly, there should be some kind of analogue for 'tactical' (traditional 3.5) stealth in the overland movement rules... something like moving at a good pace but not making lots of noise, with a more abstracted chance of noticing ambushes or other parties in the area. Maybe get an average of the party's stealth score (should only change once a level, barring new items) and compare it to the average of an opposing force's Perception? Seems simple enough.
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That's another thing... combat is loud, enemies scream for help from their buddies, etc. Regardless of how carefully they sneak up to a door if they had a combat in a room it's almost assured the folks in the next room, or even 2 rooms down heard it (there are modifiers under perception). The players aren't going to know who heard what when they are sneaking around so they might get a nasty surprise occasionally.Unless of course one of them either is a mage or has a wand of silence and sufficient UMD. Just cast it on a pebble and carry it (ontop of an open palm) into wherever your going to fight at, free action drop it and let the killing begin. Depending on how the scenario is set up you may be able to pull this off in several encounters with a single stone.
Hmm, Wand of silence lasts three rounds. That gives you one round to sneak up, one surprise round, and one round of combat... maybe two rounds of combat if you hit it right as you kick a door open.
Again, assuming you follow the rules and the players actually invest in the wand/ spells/ day, sure.
As far as I'm concerned a sneaky/ stealth focused group where the party infiltrates and accomplishes their mission in complete stealth/ silence is pretty cool. There is a terror aspect to it which I wish the game system could take into account. A welcome variation on the typical smash/ kill tactics I see in many groups.
The thing with stealth is you look very suspicious if someone spots you. If you're just walking around, and someone looks you way, no problem (unless you're not supposed to be there). But if you are sneaking through town and a guard spots you, you look like a pickpocket/burglar/general ne'er-do-well, and then you're in trouble.
Yeah, I mean the last thing you want to do in town is walk down the middle of the street on tip toes and hunched over.
"We wanted to give you this big reward, but no one in the town could find you."
"We wanted to give you this big reward, but no one in the town could find you."
I about fell out of my chair reading that.
Bravo!
+1
Hmm, Wand of silence lasts three rounds. That gives you one round to sneak up, one surprise round, and one round of combat... maybe two rounds of combat if you hit it right as you kick a door open.
Again, assuming you follow the rules and the players actually invest in the wand/ spells/ day, sure.
As far as I'm concerned a sneaky/ stealth focused group where the party infiltrates and accomplishes their mission in complete stealth/ silence is pretty cool. There is a terror aspect to it which I wish the game system could take into account. A welcome variation on the typical smash/ kill tactics I see in many groups.
Are spell trigger items not voice activated?
PC: By the power of this wand I bequeath silence!
NPC: Guards! Intruders! I hear intruders!
Stealth (because it is a physical based skill like climb, jump, and swim) over prolonged periods of time would cause fatigue.
Hmm, Wand of silence lasts three rounds. That gives you one round to sneak up, one surprise round, and one round of combat... maybe two rounds of combat if you hit it right as you kick a door open.
Again, assuming you follow the rules and the players actually invest in the wand/ spells/ day, sure.
As far as I'm concerned a sneaky/ stealth focused group where the party infiltrates and accomplishes their mission in complete stealth/ silence is pretty cool. There is a terror aspect to it which I wish the game system could take into account. A welcome variation on the typical smash/ kill tactics I see in many groups.
Are spell trigger items not voice activated?
PC: By the power of this wand I bequeath silence!
NPC: Guards! Intruders! I hear intruders!It says to cast a spell you must speak in a firm voice. Doesn't say you have to yell or even that it can't be a whisper just says to be firm.
I've argued that many a time and been shot down just as many a time on these boards.
What's more, you aren't casting a spell, but activating a wand. Diiferent rules apply.
Hmm, Wand of silence lasts three rounds. That gives you one round to sneak up, one surprise round, and one round of combat... maybe two rounds of combat if you hit it right as you kick a door open.
Again, assuming you follow the rules and the players actually invest in the wand/ spells/ day, sure.
As far as I'm concerned a sneaky/ stealth focused group where the party infiltrates and accomplishes their mission in complete stealth/ silence is pretty cool. There is a terror aspect to it which I wish the game system could take into account. A welcome variation on the typical smash/ kill tactics I see in many groups.
Are spell trigger items not voice activated?
PC: By the power of this wand I bequeath silence!
NPC: Guards! Intruders! I hear intruders!It says to cast a spell you must speak in a firm voice. Doesn't say you have to yell or even that it can't be a whisper just says to be firm.
I've argued that many a time and been shot down just as many a time on these boards.
What's more, you aren't casting a spell, but activating a wand. Diiferent rules apply.
Wait... How does the NPC get the shout out if the Silence is up? Conversely how do the PC's know the alarm is raised if silence is up? (Also, just how many spells is your Cleric/Mage (or particularly Bard) going to be casting in a silence?)
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Wait... How does the NPC get the shout out if the Silence is up? Conversely how do the PC's know the alarm is raised if silence is up? (Also, just how many spells is your Cleric/Mage (or particularly Bard) going to be casting in a silence?)
The NPC gets to shout if he is outside of the zone of silence, which is not that wide compared to how far sounds travel.
I honestly see no problem with this so long as, like everyone else is saying, they follow the rules. Thankfully Paizo put the perception check of most critters near the top of their entry.
So every once in a while don't let them make the stealth rolls. Let them do it when it's unimportant. When it's important go ahead adn roll secretly. Let them know that it's to make sure the party doesn't act any differently due to a high/low roll. Increase tension by muttering things like "interesting" or "oh wow" while you roll perceptions. Also keep in mind about things like armor check penalties, environment, etc.
Also skulking about is rather disreputable. If a group of armed men skulks silently into the bar, the barkeeps calling he watch. Because that's different than the normally loud and boisterous group of armed men that typically go through his door.
Well, are you constantly springing ambushes on them if they don't? That's the reason nobody in my party wears anything heavier than a mithral breastplate.
That reminds me -- I played in a superhero game once where we all made characters independently and we ended up with 4 PCs who were telepathic. I think that was a pretty clear sign that we didn't like mysteries or secrets (e.g. allies who turn out to be traitors). Similarly, I've made more than my share of D&D/Pathfinder characters with a high Search/Perception check because I don't like traps.
I sympathize with the original poster; it gets a little tedious when players spam the same tactic over and over again (whether it's searching for traps every 5' or casting Guidance every turn or constantly using Detect Magic). I'm not sure what the best solution is.
I only check every area if the DM springs a "You didn't say you were checking for traps in the corridore" on me. The same with stealthing. If someone is scying, sure you have everyone roll stealth. Sure it can be a false alarm. Maybe a ghost is a fanboy and follows them around because the dead are so freaking boared.
...have them get to the bad guys chamber only to find out they're too late to stop the ritual/sacrifice/bake sale. And have the villian taunt them with 'I did it 36 minutes ago'. :)
Or "Too late! I ate ALL the S'mores! Bwahahaha!"
Seriously, have the delay cost them a time or four. I had some players back in '77 that had a drill worked out for advancing through my original (terrible) dungeon, that took over a minute to say, much less do. I had them run out of water, then food IN THE ENTRY HALL!. Only when they realized that their 'drill' took about 20 minutes to clear a 10' length of hall, did they lighten up.
On the Wand of Silence, SKR has a bit on his website about doing away with Absolutes. A friend suggests inflicting a -20 on Perception rolls instead. Thx to whoever 'links' it.
I have houseruled a general "caution level" into the game. This determines passive detection and stealth values, as well as some detect spells. They are arranged by speed, or what it takes to get through an average "room". Room size is left deliberately abstract for the GM, although I'm sure you could classify that too.
Caution Levels
As you explore an encounter site, you have a "passive" detection roll made in secret by the GM. The check result is dependent upon your level of caution — additional caution takes more time. The time taken has been abstracted into "rooms" for easier resolution. Larger or smaller rooms may adjust the listed times.
Reckless
Passive Perception: 1
Combat Speed: Double Move or Run
Detection spell: No
Time per room: Speed
Inspect in detail: No
Ambulatory
Passive Perception: 1d20
Combat Speed: full speed (30/round)
Detection spell: 1 round (presence or absence)
Time per room: 1 round
Inspect in detail: 1 object/phenomenon
Careful
Passive Perception: 10
Combat Speed: half speed (15/round)
Detection spell: 2 rounds (number)
Time per room: 1 minute
Inspect in detail: 10 objects/phenomena
Meticulous
Passive Perception: 20
Combat Speed: slow (5/round)
Detection spell: 3 rounds (location and school)
Time per room: 10 minutes
Inspect in detail: unlimited objects/phenomena
What this does for me is create a framework of passive roll results. Players can ask for new checks, but the actions those checks require are spelled out very explicitly in the Skills section of the CRB.
If I were having your problem with my players, I would include stealth on this table, similar to perception where applicable.
Part of the problem here is that perception is such a complex issue with so much riding on it, and yet rare is the GM who is actually accounting for every modifier fairly. Simply breaking it down to "How careful are you choosing to be?" is a better way to make the players realize the pros and cons of a given approach. Then they make their decision and get one with the game.
I sympathize with the original poster; it gets a little tedious when players spam the same tactic over and over again (whether it's searching for traps every 5' or casting Guidance every turn or constantly using Detect Magic). I'm not sure what the best solution is.
There is no tactic that lacks a downside. Exploit it.
Note: exploit, not punish.
If they are constantly stealthing, than have NPC's give them missions that not only utilize stealth, but absolutely require it at all times, with even a temporary slip having significant consequences. They can't complain they are being punished because the NPC just gave them a mission that suited their tactics. If they enjoy such missions, everyone wins; the DM has a definite hook to build adventures around, and the party gets to feel like their tactics are being recognized and worked with, instead of against.
Let them do it!
But make them slide in an alternate reality, bit by bit. People now seems to forget them, then, they have to shout to get other people's attention, finally, they are no longer visible to anyone and references to them fade away, they get back to their house finding it's been rented to someone else, etc.
At the same time, make monsters appear that can spot them, strange new alley where shadows dwell and talk to them, strange nightmares coming true. Warp their world - you are the DM!
Maybe they are the prey of an ancient god of stealth and are shifting in his twisted vision of the world because he wants to use them in his plot, and they will have to serve him in order to shift back?
Maybe they are the victims of an unseely faery, a mistress of shadows, who plan to take control of the town through her ancient magic by warping the very fabric of reality and gaining obedience from thieves and assassins?
Maybe they are the victim of a dream master, who uses their inmost traits to craft an horrendous nightmare in their mind and trap them there in order to brainwash them?
Maybe the world is really shifting, fading away in the shadow plane because of an ancient artifact, and, unknowlingly, they are on the safe side because the only way to stay tuned to this new reality is to be always stealthing? They think people are forgetting them, but the whole world is in fact forgetting itself to shadow and by stealthing, the shawdow world forgets to forget them?
In all these cases, they have the choice to stop stealhting, but if they do it, it gets a little weirder and they sink a little more...
Roll with it and have fun!