I don't know, the I can deal with Eladrins being the who-ho, mystical, inscurutable high powered elves of LotR and other mystical lore, while regular elves are more "accessible".
This change alone "works" for me, and I may bring it into my home game very shortly.
The WOTC-ites are cribbing from my campaign notes again. I really like this.
I once loved to play high/grey elves. Max-min'ed, impossible-to-hit-because-of-that-19-dex-and-field-plate, condescending ageless magic-wielding near-immortals without a care in the world. Oh, and all sporting names pasted together from the elven name guide at the back of the LotR.
I can't stand those elves any more. Make 'em into semi-divine eladrin, make them 7 feet tall, and put 'em in the Monster Manual - not the PHB.
They make great enemies. Even for good-aligned parties. Especially for good-aligned parties.
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I'm just wondering with all the Eladrin references are they the "new" race? If you look back at one of the playtests someone was playing as an Eladrin. I take it that elven bit was flavor text from the 4e phb. In which case I wouldn't reference a race that much without them being one of the other phb choices. But thats just me.
Also, if you go this route... the new race is basically just another type of elf? So we're going to sac a race (halfling, gnome or half-orc i think are all in the running), and replace it with another elf?
Yes, I know Eladrin's are far from elves in 3.5, but from that post it seems that in 4e they are simply elven cousins. The mechanics I've been hearing sound fine for 4e. But when it comes to this fluff stuff its making me a sad panda. And I haven't been playing as long as many of you. Its just beginning to remind me of why I no-longer play warhammer 40k. :0(
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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This eladrin thing annoys me.
Well, you know, the customer base isn't sophisticated enough to handle the idea that "elf" includes "wood elf", "wild elf", "high elf, "gray elf", so now we'll bundle wood/wild into elf, and high/gray into eladrin. It makes it simpler, right? Even though it breaks a ton of older stuff. Oh, and you have know that eladrin and elves are really the same type of thing, even though they have different names.
Whee.
Oh, and you have know that eladrin and elves are really the same type of thing, even though they have different names.
Obviously. They both start with "E." Ettercaps are now driders (spider-elves), because they, too, start with "E." And don't get me started on envelopers. It's OK to roll succubi and erinyes together because demons and devils both start with "D," so they're cousins anyway. And dragons are now fiends, of course, or will be renamed something else (preferrably something that something else is already called).
I understand why you like the planes, but I can only understand it because I have some old school background from my teens--the last year of playing is not enough. I can't imagine how confusing it is for anyone new coming in.
I think people who know what they are doing can create the chaos they want, but for those coming into D&D for the first time need an easier way to figure out what the hell is going on, no pun intended.
I know this post was from a while back, but I just wanted to add in: I came in the tabletop games during 3E, and having read the DMG, was fascinated with Great Wheel... enough to buy the Manual of the Planes and soak it in!
Maybe I'm just an exception... but O how quickly have I became a grognard for this particular status quo! ;)
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I know this post was from a while back, but I just wanted to add in: I came in the tabletop games during 3E, and having read the DMG, was fascinated with Great Wheel... enough to buy the Manual of the Planes and soak it in!
Maybe I'm just an exception... but O how quickly have I became a grognard for this particular status quo! ;)
You're not the only one Mike... Todd Stewart, one of the foremost authorities on all things Yugoloths specifically and planar in general also didn't start playing till 3.0. Just because you're new doesn't mean you can't be interested in "what came before."
I of course am a super-planar-grognard or better yet graybeard having snatched the PSCS off the shelves the moment it came out (and still has the original Grubb MotP)!
-Vrock of Ages
I of course am a super-planar-grognard or better yet graybeard having snatched the PSCS off the shelves the moment it came out (and still has the original Grubb MotP)!
Nice! Bit jealous, too... berks like me gotta spend plenty of jink to get Planescape stuff these days!
Even though I don't plan on running 2E, recently I've been snatching up Planescape stuff on eBay where I can. Just starting reading "In the Cage." It's like a delicacy to me!
Maybe the high prices of Planescape setting material goes to show something about how well loved the planes really are?
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I'll add that, I don't mind succubus and eninyes having nearly or identical stats, and just putting "variant succubi: erinyes are the devil equivalents to succubi, and have identical stats except..."
And I have no problem with "sages have theorized that the nine hells started by..." but the origin of the multiverse is supposed to be a mystery. Honestly, my opinion of fourth edition just shifted from "cautiously optimistic" to "Dejected"
You're right on there. A bunch of change for the sake of change. Actually, it's for the sake invalidating all of your fluff as well as the rules, so you need to buy their shiny new books to relearn the new retconned D&D. WotC says they are listening to their customers, but their hearing must be extremely slective. Most gamers didn't want Dungeon and Dragon to be cancelled and made into a useless elctronic product, but they did it anyway. A lot of gamers didn't want a new edition this soon, but they did it anyway. They are not listening to gamers. They are listening to their corporate bosses saying they need to boost sales and make the DI a success. So 4th edition was born premature.
I never understand peoples need to "leave a mark" on things that dont need changed. If I hire you to repair my broken TV set I dont want you deciding to paint my walls an off color or changing the slant of my stairways or god forbid peeing on my couch. Just fix the game, make it better, but dont ret-con things and screw it up or we will have to dub you "D&D's John Byrne"
/rant off
I'd be curious to know how many retcons were NOT met by legions of angry fans. I'm not a huge comic book dude, so I may just be exposing my ignorance here. :) Still, it seems like a student of history should see their announced change as a harbinger of doom (or at least customer unrest).
Wow, I didn't realize just how big the anal probe for 4th Edition really was until I saw James here turning purple.
Well, I sent James and Erik this some months ago, so now I'll try and cheer you all up by posting it here. I now present the Obox-Ob song.
Obox-Ob Cultist
(With Apologies to Larry Groce)
You know I love to be a hero,
I never refuse a quest.
And when my party saved the King from a demon
He said I was the best
My best friends are a Paladin/Cleric
And his brother, the Holy Priest
And the rest of my party trusts me
To take them wherever we can
To fight all manner of evil beasts
Oh, yes, they do….
Oh, but at night I sneak down to the basement
And I make sure the steps don’t creak
And I open the secret panel
By tracing the dead Vrock’s beak
I slide open the secret door quickly
As I reach out to turn the knob….
Then I pull out my twice-curved dagger,
And I worship Obox-Ob!
Yeah, in the daytime, I’m Mr. Righteous
As goody-twoshoes as I can be,
But at night I’m an Obox-Ob cultist
May the gods have pity on me…
Well you know that you can find me
On my knees in sacred prayer
With my hands on my knees before Heironeous
And my head tilted in the air…
And swearing to strike dishonor
In a manner just and fair
And when I raise my sword
On high for justice
It’s too beautiful to bear…
Oh, yeah…
Oh, but when the doomed clock strikes darkest
And I find myself alone
I slide out my hidden key
That I made from a Deva’s finger bone
And I open up my path to the temple
In the sewers filled with slime
And bathe in the glorious madness
Of the vermin in my shrine!
Yeah, in the daytime, I’m Mr. Righteous
As goody-twoshoes as I can be,
But at night I’m an Obox-Ob cultist
May the gods have pity on me…
My friends among the homeless
They all think I’m pretty straight
Because they know nothing crawls nearby
When I walk past their sewer grate
I’m a friend to the common man
I’ll grant the helpless any boon
And I’ll share my meals with anyone
Who comes to my house in the afternoon
Yes I do…
Oh, But gentles, lately I have been noticed
With a crown that’s made of rats
Gibbering at the door to the temple
And pointing at the funny priest hats
I’m afraid one day they’ll find me
With a toad substituted for my brain
Because I serve the lord of madness
And I’m really not insane…
Yeah, in the daytime, I’m Mr. Righteous
As goody-twoshoes as I can be,
But at night I’m an Obox-Ob cultist
May the gods have pity on me…
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Hope that entertained.
And, lets give thanks to my least favorite game designer ever, Richard Baker.
He created the City of Shade. He reclaimed Myth Drannor, removing it's usefulness as a classic adventure setting.
He put Shadow Weave Magic, the bastard child of Birthright, into the Forgotten Realms, creating legions of foolish morons who thought that Mystra was boring and evil was cool. It might not have mattered so much if it thematically didn't belong there.
He created Tome of Nine Swords, a book so filled with erectile dysfunction that they decided to adopt it so that people could roxxor more. (Sigh)
Now, Richard Baker has done the impossible.
He has put the "Suck" into succubus.
Wow, I didn't realize just how big the anal probe for 4th Edition really was until I saw James here turning purple.
Well, I sent James and Erik this some months ago, so now I'll try and cheer you all up by posting it here. I now present the Obox-Ob song.
Obox-Ob Cultist
(With Apologies to Larry Groce)You know I love to be a hero,
I never refuse a quest.
And when my party saved the King from a demon
He said I was the best
My best friends are a Paladin/Cleric
And his brother, the Holy Priest
And the rest of my party trusts me
To take them wherever we can
To fight all manner of evil beasts
Oh, yes, they do….Oh, but at night I sneak down to the basement
And I make sure the steps don’t creak
And I open the secret panel
By tracing the dead Vrock’s beak
I slide open the secret door quickly
As I reach out to turn the knob….
Then I pull out my twice-curved dagger,
And I worship Obox-Ob!Yeah, in the daytime, I’m Mr. Righteous
As goody-twoshoes as I can be,
But at night I’m an Obox-Ob cultist
May the gods have pity on me…Well you know that you can find me
On my knees in sacred prayer
With my hands on my knees before Heironeous
And my head tilted in the air…
And swearing to strike dishonor
In a manner just and fair
And when I raise my sword
On high for justice
It’s too beautiful to bear…
Oh, yeah…Oh, but when the doomed clock strikes darkest
And I find myself alone
I slide out my hidden key
That I made from a Deva’s finger bone
And I open up my path to the temple
In the sewers filled with slime
And bathe in the glorious madness
Of the vermin in my shrine!Yeah, in the daytime, I’m Mr. Righteous
As goody-twoshoes as I can be,
But at night I’m an Obox-Ob cultist
May the gods have pity on me…My friends among the homeless
They all think I’m pretty straight
Because they know nothing crawls nearby
When I walk past their sewer grate
I’m a friend to the common man
I’ll grant the helpless any boon
And I’ll share my meals with anyone
Who comes to my...
That was Awesome!! :)
Wow, I'm sort of surprised -- more people were reading than I thought. It looks like I stirred up a real hornet's nest with my comments on the work I'd recently done on devils.
When I read Rich Baker's quote at the beginning of this thread, I snickered a little because I thought someone was being funny...I mean, it was so over the top, it couldn't really be true - then I started reading the replies...oh, boy.
Uhh...I'm not really looking forward to that SORT of Yugoloth action. :)
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Personally? I really hate this. It's disrespectful of the past 30 years of D&D devil/demon tradition, for one thing. For another, it invalidates a lot of the Fiendish Codex I and the Demonomicon and a lot of other stuff I've worked on. It's hard for me not to feel insulted a little by this decision.
I won't mention names, but a certain Elf-lady seems to feel the same way when Wizards recently declared they were breathing new life into the Elves of a certain campaign setting.
It's said that Wizards is completely out of touch about how dear certain facts are to the game. Then again, they're interested in new players, not the crusty old ones.
It's said that Wizards is completely out of touch about how dear certain facts are to the game. Then again, they're interested in new players, not the crusty old ones.
But us crusty old ones are set in our ways and like things as they are. :)
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Does the succubus=devil retcon imply that the succubus is now lawful evil, that chaotic evil is a legit choice for devil alignment, or that the alignment system is getting revamped? (haha...vamp...succubus...I get me.)
Also, I'm sorry, but IMHO, chaotic evil just makes more sense for a succubus than lawful evil. As to their being "generally humanoid," I think their xenotype meshes well with the "anything goes" nature of the Abyss; i.e. chaos can provide you with awesome yet alien beauty as well as staggeringly hideous monstrosity.
Looked up succubus on Wikipedia and it describes it as a demon.
When has wikipedia ever been wrong?
Yeah I know. Wiki's are not reliable.
But I did look succubus up in other online dictionaries and they all said she was a demon.
Don't have an Oxford English Dictionary to hand, but I'm sure it says the same.
It seems only WotC think a succubus is a devil.
Damn it! Once again, I spent a long time typing a post that got lost and deleted when I somehow got logged off the site. This is becoming very annoying, when I can otherwise stay logged in for weeks on end.
I'm a little too demoralised at all the wasted effort to mess about going through all the points and arguments again, but the main thrust was as follows:
It is my opinion that a new edition of the rules should concentrate on improving the 'crunch' to a level wherein play is enhanced in terms of ease, speed and intuitiveness for all involved.
Messing about with 'fluff' is dangerous. 'Fluff' has been built up over the years by many of the finest minds in the business and it is what actually defines D&D from other games. After all, the basic premise of "assume a fantasy persona and act it out in a fantasy world" pretty much applies to all RPGs - it is the 'fluff' that makes D&D the game that it is.
I've never much used the Planes myself, but I like the fact that they are all there for me as and when I should happen to need them. I like the fact that there are so many different types of dragons waiting for me to use them as I see fit. I like the idea that there are any number of low-level sword-fodder humanoids just waitng to give low-to-intermediate level PCs challenges that may only differ in flavour and description, if not game mechanics. Keep goblins, kobolds, hobgoblins, orcs and gnolls. Keep ten types of true dragon (and throw in all the gem, shadow, gloom and whatnot variations you like), keep the Great Wheel and more Planes than can be used at once.
Hang onto it all with the jealous fury of the drowning, because it's much better to discard half of what's available, or severely limit the usage of certain things, than to have only half of it available and be severely limited by lack of choice before you start. Retain as many options as possible, even if you can't use them all at once, or even don't like some of them (someone probably will, somewhere in the world, and the brand is stronger for catering to all tastes).
If 4e concentrates on making the game quicker and easier to play, then I'm all for it. If it wants to cut down and simplify the background, then those parts can go and play in the traffic.
But they're not just changing the system, they are throwing out the history that makes Dungeons and Dragons unique. Furthermore, they are doing it in the core books, not in an optional supplement. It makes both fluff AND crunch from older products incapatable with the new edition, and many players, myself included, have invested heavily in those source books.
And that's really the point here, You HAVE invested in those books. Hasbro/WotC already has your money for them and are well aware they sold them to you not long ago.
If they don't make 4e 'evolved' enough from 3.X then there's a (really, really) good chance you'll ignore the fancy new manual of the planes (4e) when it comes out and just translate what you need as you need it (as folks who bought the 1e manual of the planes did when they needed planar stuff, rather than buying a great whacking lot of 2e Planescape stuff).Or am I being too cynical? Was there a hue and cry for a new edition among the fans that I missed?
Does the succubus=devil retcon imply that the succubus is now lawful evil, that chaotic evil is a legit choice for devil alignment, or that the alignment system is getting revamped? (haha...vamp...succubus...I get me.)
Also, I'm sorry, but IMHO, chaotic evil just makes more sense for a succubus than lawful evil. As to their being "generally humanoid," I think their xenotype meshes well with the "anything goes" nature of the Abyss; i.e. chaos can provide you with awesome yet alien beauty as well as staggeringly hideous monstrosity.
They have said that alignment is still in the game, but is "less of a straightjacket." They have also said that there are no "mechanical elements" regarding alignment (which I would take as meaning that no classes have alignment restrictions, no spells are keyed to alignments, etc.)
So the way I read this is that alignment is still in the game, but it won't really mean anything. Its just sort of a half-assed measure to try to keep pro alignment folks in the game. Personally, I like alignment, but if they are going this direction, I'd rather they just got rid of it than to include it and say it doesn't really mean anything.
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I agree with a lot of what felonstream is saying; I feel like if you want to jack with the fluff, there's so much fluff that has room for expansion. Why mess with the golden stuff? There's 666 layers of the Abyss. There's new demons created every day. The yugoloths have been on the back burner forever. Etc...etc... there's room there, I'm sure of it.
When Playing or DMing, I have always found it more enjoyable and useful respectivley to have the details of the planes obfuscated. I hold fast to them when running in published settings (which will most likely come out with planar books after the switch), but for home games, I like the etherial (Not the planar meaning) nature to ease the use of the inhabitants in wider than traditional roles.
What I mean to say is that no barrier will exist unless the crusty old players (Myself included) make it themselves. Like Planescape in 3e, it will be a small task to assemble the old fluff extrapolated from the new.
When Playing or DMing, I have always found it more enjoyable and useful respectivley to have the details of the planes obfuscated. I hold fast to them when running in published settings (which will most likely come out with planar books after the switch), but for home games, I like the etherial (Not the planar meaning) nature to ease the use of the inhabitants in wider than traditional roles.
yeah I can see that. I am probably about the same, just hadn't really thought of it that way.
What I mean to say is that no barrier will exist unless the crusty old players (Myself included) make it themselves. Like Planescape in 3e, it will be a small task to assemble the old fluff extrapolated from the new.
Good point. we don't HAVE to follow the metaplot, at least we never have before.
I agree with a lot of what felonstream is saying; I feel like if you want to jack with the fluff, there's so much fluff that has room for expansion. Why mess with the golden stuff? There's 666 layers of the Abyss. There's new demons created every day. The yugoloths have been on the back burner forever. Etc...etc... there's room there, I'm sure of it. [/QUOTE
Too right there is. There's as much room as you (the player or DM) are prepared to make. what goes into, or stays out of, your world should always be your choice, not that of a designer 'simplifying' things. People reading this are probably wise enough in the ways of D&D to sort things out for themselves, but new players may be in danger of losing a great deal of background and heritage to the cause of 'logic'.
I thought that the erinyes and the succubus were distinct enough in character and intention, similarities notwithstanding, to fulfil separate roles in any campaign (like orcs and hobgoblins - the dice rolls involved may be similar, but the disorganised rabble v. the disciplined army thematics can result in very different problem-solving appoaches to encounters). It seems to me that we're taking a 'heads' monster and a 'tails' monster and making them into one 'coin' monster, just because you can, 'holistically', see both from the edge.
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Wow, lots of opinions on this one.
Well, I certainly see why several people would hate the change, but personally I like it.
The whole Blood War thing to me is silly. The whole Devils are lawful and Demons are chaotic, so they hate one another more than they hate the angels, which are good. The emphasis is on law and order with good and evil being minor issues.
I prefer that Devils are humanoid in appearance and Demons are decidedly not so.
And while I like this change and some of the others mentioned by WOTC so far, I think 4E is going to receive a horrible response and that will cause Hasbro to sell WOTC and the whole D&D line to Paizo.
So James and Erik... you guys should go ahead and get started on 5th Edition... :)
And while I like this change and some of the others mentioned by WOTC so far, I think 4E is going to receive a horrible response and that will cause Hasbro to sell WOTC and the whole D&D line to Paizo.
You have been banned by 4e, Wotc and Hasbro
Frankly, I don't know why seductive fiends are such a big deal. Is there a real and solid reason why there has to be a discrete number of fiends for a single purpose. Is DnD so conceptually poor that it can only afford 1 or 2 seducer fiends?
I mean, a marilith can be seductive, right? It can cast Polymorph at will and it has a Diplomacy check of +30, so I assume it's pretty good at the role.
Heck, a Hellcat with a Wand of Alter Self and a level of Sorcerer could cast Charm person several times a a day, seduce people in the form of a Tiefling, and still be a vicious combatant at a CR hovering around 8.
Frankly, I don't know why seductive fiends are such a big deal. Is there a real and solid reason why there has to be a discrete number of fiends for a single purpose. Is DnD so conceptually poor that it can only afford 1 or 2 seducer fiends?
I mean, a marilith can be seductive, right? It can cast Polymorph at will and it has a Diplomacy check of +30, so I assume it's pretty good at the role.
Heck, a Hellcat with a Wand of Alter Self and a level of Sorcerer could cast Charm person several times a a day, seduce people in the form of a Tiefling, and still be a vicious combatant at a CR hovering around 8.
There's a very good reason for limiting the number of seductive fiends. Unions!
Millenia ago there was total chaos in the abyss with all sorts of demons doing the seducing.
Malcanthet stepped in with the Ladies Union of Seducers and Temptresses (L.U.S.T.) to bring things under control.
On a (slightly) more serious note, you are right that a Marilith can use polymorph at will, but unlike the succubus the duration is not unlimited, so she has to remember to recast every 16 minutes.
And with the Polymorph errata they released, they actually took that ability away from mariliths.
Uh, that should be a limited number of fiends.
A discrete set of fiends would be a set of fiends that had been previously anatomically separated. Now, ordinarily, I'd be a little less chastising if you had been talking about inanimate objects, but a bunch of internal organs and body parts just lying around and seducing people is...umm...gross.
Uh, that should be a limited number of fiends.
A discrete set of fiends would be a set of fiends that had been previously anatomically separated. Now, ordinarily, I'd be a little less chastising if you had been talking about inanimate objects, but a bunch of internal organs and body parts just lying around and seducing people is...umm...gross.
Errrr, what?
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Anyway, it seems lame to force backstory on ANY planes or ANY race in DnD.
You really can just leave the tanari and baazetu alone and let have their Blood War because its all classic 2e ADnD stuff. If you want god-killing devils or ones with some sort of Demon Lord sanction, call them some other name with another subtype and make them have their own appearance and move on with your life.
I mean, Hordes of the Abyss even adds a whole new kind of demon to the mix, and the game is richer for the experience. When you start changing iconic stuff into different stuff for no reason, the game is poorer for us all.
Heck, you could just expand the game and have "succubus" be the catch all name for any seducer fiend. There would be a devil one and a demon one and a yugoloth one and even just random fiendish templated ones from any ole Lower Plane. Any fiend that seduces could be a "succubus."
I mean, my first experience with Demons came from an old issue of Dragon that had this 1e ADnD system where you would take two monsters, combine their powers and appearance, and then add powers from a chart depending on whether they were a Type I, II, III, IV, V or Demon Lord. Every demon was unique and awesome.
In the interest of game balance, you couldn't do that today, but you could just open things up a bit. I mean, 3e made a quantum leap when they let the game have orcs that could get character classes so that you could just be a powerful hero that fought an equally powerful orc, rather than orcs being a horde monster past level 5 that had to be fought in the hundreds to be a threat. (I even wrote an online supplement that did something like this for 3e Fiends... "Tome of Fiends" is the key Google phrase).
My point is this: don't be small minded. DnD is a large place and you don't need to "leverage" existing intellectual property by making some wildly different new version of it every edition. That's the marketing department talking and they need to be told when to sit down and shut up every once in a while.
If you want someone to love your game and your monsters, you just put them in cool adventures. Heck, I played Red Hand of Doom and now I hate anything thats "made from dragons, but not a dragon even though Tiamat loves them and everything"-style BS even though that was cool in Dragonlance. On the flipside, Dungeon made a great adventure in the Styes with a ghoul NPC and I now have a new love for ghouls, so I think its clear how this should work.
Millenia ago there was total chaos in the abyss with all sorts of demons doing the seducing.
ummmmm.... isn't it SUPPOSED to be chaotic in the Abyss? :)
Of course it is. I was attempting humour. :)
Did you really think I was serious when I suggested that the Queen of the Succubi formed a union?
Union sounds very lawful to me, although the one I am member of could not organise the proverbial in a brewery.