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Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters

That thread is fantastic and I've been using the ideas therein for several campaigns now when faced with 5, 6 or even 7 PCs. I don't use it for every encounter (since I believe that shear numbers should be worth something of a benefit to the PC group), but I've found it to be an incredibly handy aid.

I'm currently running this for a very experienced group who bailed on Iron Gods (which I really dig, but anyhow...) and bought me the first few books (they really wanted to play it). It's a different sort of PF experience in that Rocket Tag™ begins immediately. It is a very, very violent AP with about 9 deaths so far (and many, "near deaths"). For reference, we play with 15-point builds, all Paizo materials allowed except Summoners and Leadership (mainly to keep everyone's action economy about equal). My online Jade Regent game as a point of reference is nearing completion of book 6 and has seen 6 deaths (4 of which are from the same player who has struggled mightily to play a frontline character). Both groups consist of players who have played since the late 70s early 80s (there is one newer player in the online group).

So far, I feel that Book 1 and 2 are fine. My group really enjoyed them. Book 3 seems horribly flawed, but we're soldering on. The foes in the AP so far are horribly susceptible to REF & WILL save sorts of builds so your casters (if they can stay safe) will have fun. It is really rough on the dudes who are happiest wading into HtH since most enemies hit incredibly hard. My group really digs the challenge and are having a lot of fun in spite of how many times some of them have died. So, for the right group, it's probably going to deliver for you. It's certainly not for the feint of heart or those who're looking to solve mysteries and the like.

I see so many people griping about how this build or that build ruins their game. In almost every instance, they're using 20 or 25 point buys. I'm sure I'm not alone in in stating that the 15-point buy (upon which the original D&D 3.X engine was built around) approach and maybe disallowing things that make action economy unfair to the other players in the group (we're looking at you Summoner and Leadership feat) produces a game that is reasonably balanced and very fun for everyone. No game with this much complexity could ever be perfectly balanced.

Make sure you have a GTFO option when the Shadows show up. I can't count how many people have died in my campaigns due to gimping STR. I only run APs so it's not like I'm purposely throwing Shadows (and even worse, Greater Shadows) at parties. YMMV, but STR 9 gives you that slightest bit of buffer that can save a TPK.

Y'all are very much welcome and I'm looking forward to actually using them in my own CC campaign which I finally get to start this Friday (yay!).

Is it just me or isn't the windstorm that's going on in that encounter putting a halt to any missile fire short (CRB 439) of siege weapons? I'm not sure that would have kept the OP's party from "scrying and frying" (well, close enough if the PCs win init) but I think they would have been forced to use melee weapons to do so. My group did a similar thing, but the Eidolon couldn't hit her (missed with 5 attacks) and the fighter grappled her, but was disappointed to find the FoM in effect. The encounter was fine for my group of 5 players. YMMV.

Unfortunately, Crafting rolls are not the same as Spellcrafting rolls (or the particular Craft roll) when making magic items. It actually takes quite a bit longer to make Alchemical items than you might think. Additionally, I don't believe that you can take a DC 5 penalty to expedite the time as you can with magic items (I certainly do see it in the Craft Skill description).

For example, if you take 10 on your check and get the 20 that you need (DC 20) for Alchemist's Fire, that means it took you a bit less than 4 days to make it at which point you've got yourself a 20gp item that you have 7gp in cost. I'm betting your GM won't let you sell it for more than 10gp though.

Maybe do Instant Alchemy instead.

Or, even better, just play Bob the Crafter. Tell the DM, we're gonna take some time off and simply try to make some money doing our "crafts" until we're a bit better equipped to Fight Evil™. Abuse the Crafter's Fortune spell and just have a bit of fun playing Settlers of Golarion for a few years. Don't take 10 either, simply do the rolls each week and earn 1/2 of your roll in gp each week. Sadly, without the Downtime rules or the Hedge Magician trait (or similar), you just don't have a lot of good options within the rules to make bank.

Regarding the Soulforger, he already has a Bonded Item and since the Magus Arcana says that it works like the Wizard ability (which prohibits having both iirc, but maybe that's not the case), it's sketchy at best that he could have a familiar. I don't believe this has been FAQd so by all means, if your DM allows it, go for it.

In the above example by Bacon666, the cooperating character would increase your top speed to 6000 per day, not 8000 per day due to the the added multiplier rule in Pathfinder.

As I have stated though, this character only gets this enhanced speed when crafting metal items or weapon and armor.

The Arcane Crafter goes at 3000 per day, up to 4000 per day if you allow another cooperative Crafter (which I agree with CraziFuzzy, I don't think it's legal as it states "another").

Now, I'll agree to disagree that the Arcane Crafter is better or inferior to the normal Wizard in regards to magic item creation (he has one more craft feat though and that is indisputable), but I remain firmly convinced that the Wizard is vastly superior than any other character at crafting magic items, constructs, oozes, or what have you. For example, let's just assume that we're talking about a single 12th level wizard. He gets the following feats that the Cleric/Magus never gets:

Craft Rod (caster level 9)
Craft Staff (caster level 11)

Those multi class levels don't add together so you can never make those items.

Meanwhile, if a customer comes into your shop asking for a Handy Haversack (or other items which you are only average at crafting), you work at 1000 + 1000 (by taking the +5 penalty to enhance speed) +1000 from your own Valet (if your DM allows it). So at that point, you're on par with the Wizard. If the Valet is disallowed (which it should be barring a FAQ that I missed), you're at 2000/day for almost all of the meaningful Wondrous Items.

Over at Bob's & Tom's House of Human Wizard Shenanigans
Both Bob & Tom have virtually every Craft Feat (8 if they wish, counting Scribe Scroll, because they got a Freebie Craft feat at 3rd level). Both of them have Valet Familiars helping out, while their 4, 6th level Lesser Simulacrum (all of which have cooperative crafting of course, since Bob & Tom took it at first level) make items as well. Of course this would require a bit of Diplomacy since you don't control the Lesser Simulacrum, but one can assume that a 12th level Wizard can very easily manage an 18 or 19 by taking 10 on Diplo (their Simulacrum probably have -1 or -2 CHA mods).

So, once they've spent a couple of hours prepping stuff, they get on with their day and craft the following:

Bob and his Valet craft 3000 on virtually ANY magical item, casting Fabricate as needed.
Tom also does 3000 and may cast Fabricate as well.
Bob's 2 Lesser Simulacrums cooperate with each other to craft 3000 worth of whatever items with feats of 6th level or less (i.e. no Rods, no Staffs).
Tom's 2 Lesser Simulacrums cooperate with each other to craft 3000 in the same fashion.

Total progress per day:
12,000 of virtually any item.

Note that the 2 dwarves in their shop can manage this same rate on metal items and weapons and armor, so they can do some respectable work themselves, but will fall way behind when making ioun stones, cloaks of protection, staffs & rods of all sorts no crafting meta magic rods at the dwarf shop), etc.

Note #2: If the DM can be convinced to allow 13th Level Wizard crafters, we're all of the sudden in crazy town since both Bob and Tom will upgrade their Lesser Simulacrums to real Simulacrums and at some point, thus having an entire staff of Simulacrum working on stuff.

Note #3: Yes, there is a cost for making those lesser Simulacrum (300 gp each), but Bob and Tom were clever and both took False Focus at 1st level (since they didn't really need Improved Initiative or whatever) and can recoup this cost by Fabricating masterwork armor and other items costing less than 300 gp for free and of course, once they have 5th level spells, they simply create the gems required via Major Creation. Bob and Tom can also offer services that the poor Dwarves can only dream of since they both have access to Planar Binding which brings Efrit magic into play.

Can someone explain how Tiny here is getting his poison onto his arrows? I have a rather handy Homunculus who would like very much to do this. I'm assuming that you lot are simply house-ruling that he can "fill up his quiver" with his own poison. If there is some other way, I'd like to know it. Chapter and verse would be great, thanks!

Except that the Arcane Crafter (Hero Lab calls them Arcanamirium Crafter) gets a Valet familiar, thus cutting his crafting time in half for ALL magic items (the Dwarves get a boost on weapons and armor in one case, metal items in the other) since he doubles the GP value you can do per day. Neither of those Dwarven characters get a Valet familiar which is a tremendous asset and a freebie Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd levels is very, very good.

I think the human Arcanamirium Crafter Universalist Archetype is the better deal guys. He gets the extra feat at 1st level, and trades the terrible Hand of the Apprentice for Craft Wondrous at 3rd level. Obviously give him the Valet familiar and Magical Heritage trait. Focus your skills on Spellcraft rather than the crafting skills since it will be your default skill for most items you make (assuming you'll make more Wondrous Items than anything else). Don't worry about actually crafting MWK weapons, simply cast Masterwork Transformation on them and go about your business.

My groups vary between 5-7 PCs. I wanted to echo the comment pointing you to the Everyman Gaming blog. The original article is in a guide here on the forums:

GM's Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters

I will use that approach on encounters that seem important. It takes a very small amount of work, but really, not that much. You simply buff the encounter by the method that Alexander suggests. If it's a CR6 encounter for instance and your party is 5th level, well then it's going to be a CR +1 encounter. You tally up the points that should be there, subtract the totals of the encounter as written in the AP and add some dudes.

On the other encounters, occasionally I'll simply run them as is and allow the party to steamroll them. Often though, I'll just add the Simple Advanced template since it's so easy to use that on the fly.

Using these two approaches, I've managed to keep the party right at the suggested levels in the AP all along. Obvsiouly, gaining levels makes the players happy. As for the fights, well, everyone seems to have fun and the modules remain deadly enough to be a challenge. I have quite a few APs going right now (I have the summer off) and here's the obits at this point:

RotR: 2 deaths, PCs are at 8th level and are in the 3rd book
Shattered Star: 2 deaths, PCs are 6th level and are in the 2nd book
Jade Regent: 1 death, PCs are at 7th level just finding book 2

It's important to get numbers up in most important encounters just to try and catch up to the player's massive action economy. Make ample use of the NPC codex (clerics and wizards in support roles can make nice challenging encounters) and pick up a copy of File the Serial Numbers Off. That's a tremendous resource for beefing up your encounters in a way that will really puzzle your players and keep them on their toes.

I was referring to him as a BOSS as a jest referencing the Tiny God thread HERE. But really, what I think you want is to have an "extra familiar" in your Homunculus. He won't have all the abilities of a familiar, but he'll be damned handy as a scout and occasional SLA caster.

Thing 1
Standard Homunculus
SLA: Stabilize, Enlarge Person, Vanish, Grease all 1X day

His caster level won't be all that high, so you like him to have utility slots or spells that don't depend so much on that. If you've got someone in your party who can craft potions, it would be even cheaper, but you can simply collect a few potions from loot drops along the way, then top them out at 10. At that point, make your Homunculus and have fun with him. I'm collecting some more potions even now to "upgrade him" the next time we get to a city.

Anyway, it's sketchy about whether or not he can use those SLAs on anything other than himself. Since you're creating him, it certainly makes sense that you could do so. Since his caster level will be based on his Hit Dice , you might even ramp up his HD to make him eligible for some helpful feats like Instant Alchemy, Brew Potion, Cooperative Crafting, or the like. The extra hit dice at 2,000 apiece are a bit high (considering that price buys you nearly 3 more 1st level SLAs), but he could use a bit of help in Perception. I think I might save up and make a Thing 2 who is a "spitter".

What I find is in most cases, the purchase of magic items is generally not as fun and not as entertaining as adventuring, questing, rewarding or under some circumstances, creating magic items.

You're absolutely correct here. Try using the RAW for acquisition of items and just get on with the adventure. It's horses for courses I know but I'm firmly in agreement with you about the adventuring part and that is one of the best reason to embrace the RAW.

It's simply easier to use the quick RAW and not sweat this stuff so that you and your players can get on with storming the castle, romancing the princess, what have you. If you'd rather have your players make that 75% roll in front of you, keeping track with which items are not available, by all means do so. Quick, easy, fair and gets your dudes on their way out of the city doing more adventuring (or off to more interesting parts of the city if your campaign is Urban). I can see how that, if it's absolutely necessary for your group if it's an Urban campaign, but I find we spend more time adventuring by simply glossing over these other bits of minutiae.

To everyone suggesting something other a Master Summoner, can you please comment on how bad your guy is during the first round of combat.

The Champ, Master Summoner
Standard Action to Summon Monster #, Move Action to put himself out of harm's way.
Ediolon Wand Jockey does something valid like Grease or Silent Image at low levels, Enervate later when you're rich.
Summoned Monsters do stuff like, attack, cast spells, eat the bad guys' faces, etc.

All the Other Summoning-types-of-Dudes
FULL ROUND ACTION to Summon Monster #, five foot step

I'm not trying to start a skirmish here, but geez, the standard action timing of his Summon spells alone just completely obsoletes everyone else. Even with a 15-point buy, he has 9 Summon Monster I per day and at 2nd level, they're all getting +4 Str +4 Con.

Maybe you haven't seen what one of these hideously OP characters is really capable of doing.

Master Summoner

/thread

Srsly, is this even in doubt?

I've been keeping an eye on that guide myself and I'm actually running a construct crafter right now. It's certainly an entertaining way to play the game. I'm not sure what level your guy is, but have you already made yourself a Boss Homunculus yet? I know that seems really lame compared to something as powerful as a Stone Golem, but they can make really fine support. They also give you something to do with all those random potions your group finds in the course of adventuring.

For the cost, I think the Junk Golem is really handy and plan on making one in the immediate future. Having your own Swarm seems pretty cool to me, plus you can Haste it with Grease which is hysterical.

I'm tempted to create my own C3PO with an Intelligent Clockwork Servant and give him some sort of helpful feat. Instant Alchemy would be hysterical or maybe make a pair of them and give them a teamwork feat just for the LOLs.

How about a Clockwork Familiar for yet another Scout and as an Emergency Pro Evil source to help out your party's martials when (not if) they get dominated.

I think my point is that you can get some quality assistants without ponying up for Megatron. Maybe you already have those though.

Make sure you take advantage of the Letters from the Main Villain that Loki_Thief and I made. They can be found in this THREAD.

Which Alchemist book are we talking about here? Is it 3rdP?

It's actually fun to get it early and tinker around with some of the cheaper constructs. A throwaway Homunculus actually makes for a really fun scout and you'll laugh hysterically if he ever puts the bite on someone. I don't think it'll make a difference either which types you build as they're all quite fun.

Not sure what you mean by construct armor, but your Sorceress will do just fine with a +1 Guardian Haramaki one you can either afford to purchase/make it.

KISS

Allow and encourage Leadership, but do not adjust encounters for the extra cohorts.

PCs begin with:
10 point build 1st - 3rd
15 Point build 4th to 7th
20 point build 8th to 13th
25 point build 14th to 15th

All of those effective "retrains" are free.

For gritty LotR or GoT play E6 or E8.

So you allow the Leadership feat but somehow find the Gamemastery RAW rules for settlements and the purchase of magic items to be beyond the Pale. Hey, to each his own, party on Garth.

I'm with Anzyr, this is a 3.x game, so you get quite a bit of cool stuff that you want. Not everything, but enough to feel like you've found some nice magic item rewards and are improving you PC's lot in the game.

If you want Gygaxian magic item distribution, you probably should crank down the CR in encounters beyond 5th level or accept a fairly high body count. For Christ's sakes, have y'all even looked at the Iconics? It's not like their running around with utter chode. If you run the RAW, the PCs are only going to ever find anything over 13000gp for sale in a metropolis and only then through shear luck or DM agency.

Rappan Athuk or anything really by Frog God or back in the day when they were Necromancer Games.

If you're feeling particularly devious, break out Heart of Nightfang Spire from 3.0 and by SKR if memory serves. It's ridiculously evil. I've never had a group get close to beating it.

Also, don't throw the door wide open. Make them roll on a 75% chance of availability as per the rules in the Gamemastery guide. You should also use the rules in that book on settlements for price limits, but at low levels it may not matter too much.

We pretty much use bits of all the books, but restrict a few classes and archetypes. I don't find that it hampers role playing in any way at all. Most of my games revolve around either APs or large, modules (Rappan Athuk for example) so in that way, I'm able to run a good game without making prep time too much of an ordeal. It's very easy to over-prep in PF and other 3.X games so I try to avoid going too "sand-boxy".

What book keeping is involved is handled by appointing one player to tallying the loot for later party-split. In large games, I appoint a Co-DM for quickly referencing rules. This lightens my load quite a bit and improves the game.

Crafting as laid out in the Gamemastery guide works just fine if you follow the rules as written there. Keep a close eye on the party's wealth per level and you'll keep things challenging enough. Doesn't matter if they make it themselves or buy it in cities. The latter method actually gives them more reason to travel to Magnimar, Absalom, or wherever.

The Pathfinder Campaign Setting is excellent by the way I run it almost exclusively for PF play (I've several other setting for running OSR games). Grab one of the APs that suits your group (Shattered Star would work well since they sound like they would dig a rather old school, "kill the bad guys and take their stuff" vibe) and have at it. I'd recommend omitting the rules that you don't like or that you don't want to deal with (because they break immersion or are a bit overpowered), but otherwise, just keep it wide open as far as Paizo material is concerned. I think the 3P stuff is a bit unwieldy, but for the most part, the material from Paizo is usually well-considered and won't break your game.

Here's an example of the house rules I use:

Mark Hoover just ended the thread. That's almost always the case when the DM loses control is to simply let it play itself out. Brilliantly stated man.

As for the side road we went down with Craft Wondrous, I don't disagree with the concept that Craft Wondrous is solid. I would rate it as Green bordering Blue in my non-existent Guide to Arcane Casters, but y'all are misinterpreting what I posted. I was simply disagreeing that it's the 2nd most powerful feat in the game. Someone skilled at playing God Wizards (for example) will still dominate play with the normal amount of wealth. Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread, even if Mark Hoover just ended it. :)

Another vote for Sunless Citadel. Also, check out the old Necromancer Games Crucible of Freya. Both are 3.X and will require a smidgen of conversion work, but are very much worth it.

Not to pick nits, but I don't see Craft Wondrous being rated all that high in most Arcane class guides. I'll agree that Leadership is generally a ridiculous feat, but Wizards are going to be more powerful if they skip Craft Wondrous. I believe it was Treatmonk who correctly referred to it as "selling your feats" and in so doing, you delay things like Preferred Spell, Dazing Spell, Spell Perfection, Improved Familiar, etc.

Anyway, I think it's a fun feat, but I don't think it is a consensus #2 feat in the game. Ymmv...

The money and time issue is certainly something that the DM can and should control regardless of whether or not you have crafting characters in your party. Realistically, most PC crafters will be Wizards and every Craft feat that they take, ratchets their personal power down. Khrysaor makes a good point that it's supposed to be easier than it was in 3.5 (though a 1st Lv wizard can't craft a +5 sword, any sword really. He has to be Lv 5 to get the feat. The DC will also bump up since you don't have the prereq Level; a special rule for weapons).

Control the money, control the PCs time and you shouldn't have any problems with crafting. Same is true with the core system in the GM Guide.

I'm sorry but the 75% chance as presented in the core rules is in no way "luck based". The PCs can come back a week later and try again. It will most certainly be available at that point. If you run that system exactly as written, and your PC group has no crafting ability to amount to anything, you'll be fine. Seriously, by RAW, the best thing in Magnimar for example might be nothing more than a +2 Glamered Longsword (at 11,000). The Base total is only 12,800 gp (via M,CoM).

If you want to go to the trouble of finding out which, if any, Medium or Major items are present above the bases total, why it's absolutely no trouble to do so. Have a look at the Iconics, they certainly look as if they adhered to this sort of system as they made their way up from 1st level (one imagines).

Sounds like 25-point buy characters plus a collection of items that shouldn't have gotten into the campaign even via Ye Olde Magic Store. Items above 16K are only available if the PC makes them or the DM decides that they're available. I'd be surprised if all of those were actually made by the characters themselves

Of course an enemy will take a poke at those floating Ioun Stone. Hell, what kind of lame 15th level character hasn't had them embedded a la Karzoug (and the others)? LOL

Also, an AC 53 after buffing up and fighting defensively is great and all, but still can be hit. A CR 15 dude will still hit on 17+ (mean of 25 at that level) and many of those foes will be lobbing Dispel Magics or even better Greater Dispel Magic. One wonders at what point Bad Guys will wake up to the fact that PCs are often buffed like mad and need to have those effects stripped away before a proper fight can be had. Someone in Bad Guy Leadership should form a committee or bring this up at the next meeting.

In short, I don't think the OP's problem is caused by a 2000 point item, but rather a number of other items and campaign decisions.

Thanks for the advice folks. We've signed up for The Confirmation on Friday and then we'll try Scars of the Third Crusade on Saturday. I picked that one since we're all 3 going to be in the Silver Crusade faction. Sounds like it should be fun.

Stick to the 15 point buy.

Strongly consider the PFS average hits per level and definitely consider banning any Archetypes that the PFS has banned.

Scrap the Leadership feat.

Do not open the magic store, but rather force players to use the RAW in acquiring items (the 75% availability and settlement limits actually help to keep things quite reasonable).

Keep a very close handle on PC wealth. Take it away when it gets way out of hand, turn the faucet on when they fall behind.

Read and apply the DM's Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters.

Read the FAQ, figure out how the various exploits are really supposed to work, RTFM and get on top of the rules.

That should just about do it.

Take another look at Unwitting Ally since it doesn't have the daze effect that Strayshift is implying. The target takes no hostile actions against your enemies, but that does not mean that it can't wallop your friends and thus, not Dazed. It's an OK cantrip, but doesn't really belong on this list, sorry.

Probably not since they would have to be crafted for a small or tiny being. The solution would be to wear it yourself and just let your familiar snag stuff as needed.

Sounds like you intend to have an entire adventuring party of buddies (familiar, eidolon, etc.). ;)

Thanks for the advice guys, really appreciate it.

They are very much down with the idea of making our own starting three characters. Sounds like The Confirmation is the way to go for us. Is there a session to jump in after that one? Also, what is the process of prepping a PC? I have Hero Lab so making them correctly isn't too difficult, but I'm assuming that we pass them along to a DM? I'm fairly conversant with general PFS character restrictions since we mostly adopt those for our local campaigns.

The Efficient Quiver is actually better for storing wands which are clearly by description legal for use with the quiver. Your DM may have to OK this and it may not be kosher for PFS, but removing the wands would be a Free Action. I don't know if there is a FAQ on that though.

As for choosing your Improved Familiar, it would be better for those of us doing so to know your alignment as that actually plays a big role in deciding what options you have. Given what we know though, yes, the Faerie Dragon is a no brainer, but probably so much so that it isn't very original.

Not sure if the Nosoi is available to you (maybe, if you're Neutral good since the text suggests that might be possible), but with at-will invisibility, flight and darkvision, they make excellent scouts and have a fair few other excellent abilities. You would lack wand usage, but with a 16 CHA, they'd be excellent with other UMD sorts of items. Scroll use given their mastery at writing them seems particularly fluffy.

A Salt Mephit with its nasty, nasty Glitterdust 1X hour is certainly worth considering. They also fly, have darkvision, and Stealth +12 so they'd be pretty solid scouts in their own right. Most all of the Mephits are worth looking at tbh.

A few details, my boys are 9 & 12 and have been playing RPGs for about 4 years, and Pathfinder specifically for at least 2 years (the full game actually with me running it). We are attending GenCon this year for the 3rd time and I thought it might be fun to test the waters of organized play with them. I realize there is a Kid's Track with the Beginner's Box (which they actually have no experience with), but they would probably enjoy it more if Dad was playing too.

So, is this allowed? How to proceed? Thanks in advance for your opinions and posts.

Just to play Devil's Advocate:

You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount. The steed serves willingly and well. The mount comes with a bit and bridle and a riding saddle.

The serve you "willingly and well" sentence suggests to me that you have more controlled over the creature than a normal horse. I'm not alone in this interpretation. Our group lets them fight (though pathetically) and we laugh hysterically when they manage to do anything at all. Of course, as the DM I run them and frequently have them make Will saves to stand and fight "unnatural creatures". They generally muck up the battlefield in a way that's entertaining. The happy medium is to allow the player to control them in a limited way, but for the DM to treat them as magical horses of a sort, but not particularly brave ones. Demons, undead, etc. should simply terrify them, though it is funny when one particularly Spartan horse sticks around to fight the BBEG.

In short, embrace the Wall of Horseflesh and have some fun with it. Just find a happy medium that the entertains both the players & the DM.

I usually have a large group, so I tweak the encounters in spots to make it a challenge, not all of them, but enough to provide a fun battle. I usually keep the enemy NPCs just as they are, but beef up the encounter with appropriate numbers to make the fight an appropriate challenge for their APL. I use a lot of resources for this, but one that is surprisingly good is File the Serial Numbers Off. Your PC will marvel at the unpredictable nature of you"NPCs".

I'm into book 3 right now in RotR running a DM-controlled ninja. We have zilch for wizards or any sort of battlefield control, but we can really dish out the pain. It would be super handy to have a wizard, but we lost ours in Book 1. :/

While I appreciate the desire to do something different here, I think you're going to struggle with this guy. Enchant/Charm with 2 feats thrown at it at first level just isn't worth it.

I assume your group is using PFS Wiz rules, but I'd lobby for Scribe Scroll at 1st Lv if at all possible. It's extremely helpful at getting you into mid levels by having a good supply of scrolls on hand for both utility, and when you run low on spell slots.

I think a better plan for your Diviner would be to start out with Spell Focus: Conj, not for the Summon Monster suite of spells, but rather for the excellent support spells that will be far more useful through mid level play than the rather lackluster Ench/Charm spells. Later, you can pick up Spell Focus: Charm once Charm Monster and Dominate start coming on line. You can probably delay your SR busting feats until around 10th and simply rely on a minor meta rod until then.

Have fun w/ RotR man.

For Pete's Sake, if you're going to use a Hvy X-Bow, at least be a wizard and cast Gravity Bow and have your Unseen Servant reload it for you. :)

The BEST weapon a wizard will ever need other than those we've already mentioned and the FULL BAB characters he orders aroun... I mean, adventures with, is a +1 Dueling Guardian Cestus. I guess you could get the masterwork version and just keep adding to it as you go (assuming you take Craft Weapons and Armor)

Best weapon available for a low level Wizard is a Haversack stuffed full of scrolls and wands. If you've built your wizard correctly, you probably don't have the Str to waste on carrying stuff. Grab a dagger or a cestus just so you can threaten every now and then. Honestly, if you're rolling to hit with a weapon in either H-t-H or range with a Wizard character, you've probably planned pretty poorly.

At 5th level, your Wizard has a BAB of +2, probably not enough STR to get a bonus so you're swinging in melee at enemies in the AC 18 range. That's an extremely underwhelming 25% chance to put a hit on the average CR 5 baddie. Ranged attacks aren't likely to be much better since you'll probably be up against Firing into Melee and Soft Cover together adding 8 to the bad guy AC.

Scrolls of Grease and Enlarge Person cost almost nothing, both of which will be far, far more effective in almost every low-level combat. You can even make them as you're adventuring (1X day EASILY). It's a FREE feat that is hugely helpful through mid levels.

Why would you need a lenient DM to take Craft Wondrous Items? It's in the Core. Do you also need his permission to play a Wizard at all? Stop sleeping with his girlfriend. LOL (I'm joking here of course).

@ OP,

Shaman Bond has recently written a guide for the Rogue and I urge you to go read it now. While it's not perfect, it does keep the focus on trying to find a niche that Rogue's can do best without trying to convince you to play other classes. Otherwise, I fear your thread is simply going to devolve into how other classes and archetypes can do every little thing better than the Rogue.

The Hedge Magician Trait will get you a base 5% discount from making ANY magic item and so you end up making them for about 47.5% of the market price. You won't do very well selling them back to the market (until you get Fabricate), but you'll come out pretty nice selling them to your party mates for a nice discount off of retail. At a 25% discount for instance, the entire party ends up better-equipped and the crafter can make extra stuff as party items all while having primo gear for himself. That's about the best method for saving money on items.

Do you force you players to use these or do you allow them to simply pick any 2? I can see where some APs they are mostly required. You'd be a pretty sad puppy in Reign of Winter for instance or say, Jade Regent if none of the PCs had any connection at all to the NPCs. OTOH, I find it kind of dumb to bring in new characters to that one and force them to be connected to Amieko, Shalelu, etc.. I can see now how originally, it would have been fine if a few characters simply lacked any past association with them.

Your thoughts?

Funny, but our group curb-stomped her.

Now convert to the worship of Nethys and take the new Magical Ephiphany feat so you can fill those ME slots as a standard action and it's now officially a party. Thanks for the seminar MrRetsej.

Nice work, nice work, really enjoyed the read and an honest attempt at re-thinking the Rogue. I urge you to reconsider keeping Wizard Green (as it is now), but moving Divination (and of course Foresight & Scyer schools) to Blue. If the Never Miss a Surprise Round ability isn't enough, surely the Prescience (which you'll likely use 4 times per day) SU pushes it into Blue. You're essentially getting 4 uses of a Witches Fortune Hex per day. Some good.

Also, you may want to reconsider Moonlight Stalker as a Red in those situational cases where you're either getting Combat Expertise free or buying it en route to other feats along the CE tree. You basically pay 2 feats in those cases (Blind-Fight and Moonlight Stalker), but you essentially get +2/+2. There's all sorts of inexpensive ways to work this to your advantage and again, it's not something every build will use, but it's pretty awesome for those who can. Surely Dwarf and Half-Orc rogues with their Darkvision can find plenty of opportunities for concealment.

Anyway, great guide, just my 2 coppers.