Sounds like 25-point buy characters plus a collection of items that shouldn't have gotten into the campaign even via Ye Olde Magic Store. Items above 16K are only available if the PC makes them or the DM decides that they're available. I'd be surprised if all of those were actually made by the characters themselves
Of course an enemy will take a poke at those floating Ioun Stone. Hell, what kind of lame 15th level character hasn't had them embedded a la Karzoug (and the others)? LOL
Also, an AC 53 after buffing up and fighting defensively is great and all, but still can be hit. A CR 15 dude will still hit on 17+ (mean of 25 at that level) and many of those foes will be lobbing Dispel Magics or even better Greater Dispel Magic. One wonders at what point Bad Guys will wake up to the fact that PCs are often buffed like mad and need to have those effects stripped away before a proper fight can be had. Someone in Bad Guy Leadership should form a committee or bring this up at the next meeting.
In short, I don't think the OP's problem is caused by a 2000 point item, but rather a number of other items and campaign decisions.
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I'm discussing the cracked version that offers first level spells to characters who can't cast spells. While it only lasts 1 minute, it's not hard to know ahead of time as a 15th level party (scrying, 30+ perception, see invisibility, gamer trope sense) when s+#%'s about to go down. 2000g for 4 shield to any character is ludicrous. As I said before, targtting ioun stones seems like the best option here. It's just super mean lol.
At 15th level, characters should be able to UMD low level wands/scrolls to their hearts content, gaining not only shield but many other spells.
Consider, for example, the list of spells my level 15 fighter has available if needed. Link
I'm just gonna spitball his AC bonuses because I don't have his character sheet right meow.
10 Base
5 Monk AC Bonus (Monk's Robe brings this to a 20th level monk's bonus)
7 Dex
6 Wisdom
4 Mage Armor
4 Shield Ioun Stone
4 Nat Armor Amulet
5 Ring of Protection
6 Crane Wing/Rod of Balance/Fighting defensively
1 Jingasa of the fortunate soldier
=53?This is far off 60 so perhaps it was a miscommunication on his and I's part, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were more bonuses I'm missing. Targeting Ioun stones feels dirty to me. But any intelligent foe with magic item knowledge would do it if their foe was immune to their attacks otherwise. Right?
Also, this player is the best roleplayer at the table. This is a good example of a powergamer that can roleplay.
+4 from ki
+1 from haste+1 from dodge
+ 2 from golden legionairre ally
Is 61 I believe
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That is quite a lot of resources invested defense, so I imagine his offense must be low. If enemies can't go around him, I recommend avoid using 15ft. corridors. At high levels many things are huge or bigger (certainly more so then at low levels) and thus would naturally have environments that provided them more space. Once his allies are dead, the monster can then focus on him. Furthermore, Greater Dispel Magic is an option at this level and some monsters have it as an at will ability. His caster levels are all low so they should have no issue dispelling him. Dispelling stuff and avoiding high AC/low offense targets are basic tactics, so the player should not complain about this being unfair.
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The appropriate response to this is simply, NO. An unslotted item that costs 2K that emulates a slotted item that costs 18K is simply ludicrous. That ioun stone should cost a minimum of 36K.Actually, the appropriate response is "Yes."
Later that day....
GM: "Due to your rockin' Sense Motive, I'll let you know that this guy seems kinda shifty, all smart-like. Almost as if, how shall I put it, maybe a little bird told him something. ...something about *you*. Because of that, you get to act in the surprise round. Roll init to see if you beat him."
"Too bad. BBEG wins. He quickdraws a rather vicious-looking axe and wings it over your head, really putting some oomph into the throw. You'd think he does this for a living..." <rolls not-a-1> "Since your Perception score is so awesome, even over the sounds of impeding battle as your companions shout and draw steel, you're distinctly able to hear the faint tink! of an Ioun stone being split."
* * * * *
That PC may have an AC of 60, but unless he's one of those wizards who beats rocks into his forehead, his Ioun stone has an AC of 24 and 15hp damage trashes it. Sure, there's many things the player can do to mitigate -- but did they?
If as a GM you are going to do this, then please tell you players they they may not get a magic Glaive before they put the weapon focus and specialization feats into a weapon.
If someone builds their character around having a particular weapon, then giving them a different one is making them a NPC class by effectively taking away those feats.
No it isn't.
Yes, I do tell everyone very clearly up front if magic item choices will be limited.
If as a GM you are going to do this, then please tell you players they they may not get a magic Glaive before they put the weapon focus and specialization feats into a weapon.
If someone builds their character around having a particular weapon, then giving them a different one is making them a NPC class by effectively taking away those feats.
No it isn't.
Yes, I do tell everyone very clearly up front if magic item choices will be limited.
You do realize this has the side effect of making casters even more powerful then normal, right? And making crafting feats exponentially better then they already are and Craft Wondrous Item is quite frankly the second strongest feat in the game after Leadership. You are also throwing off the CR system, though this again will mostly hurt martials. In short, your decision has a significant number of consequences which I do not believe you have fully considered.
Telling someone magic items will be limited is just a way of saying "Don't play a martial if your smart."
You do realize this has the side effect of making casters even more powerful then normal, right? And making crafting feats exponentially better then they already are and Craft Wondrous Item is quite frankly the second strongest feat in the game after Leadership.If as a GM you are going to do this, then please tell you players they they may not get a magic Glaive before they put the weapon focus and specialization feats into a weapon.
If someone builds their character around having a particular weapon, then giving them a different one is making them a NPC class by effectively taking away those feats.
No it isn't.
Yes, I do tell everyone very clearly up front if magic item choices will be limited.
And even then, one of the popular uses of Leadership is to make a cohort who takes Craft Wonderous Item and the other crafting feats.
I'm discussing the cracked version that offers first level spells to characters who can't cast spells. While it only lasts 1 minute, it's not hard to know ahead of time as a 15th level party (scrying, 30+ perception, see invisibility, gamer trope sense) when s&+~'s about to go down. 2000g for 4 shield to any character is ludicrous.
Why? Is the Shield spell itself overpowered? Compared to Mage Armor?
Cloak of the Hedge Wizard (abjuration) gives him the spell for 2500 gp. So is that overpowered?
Someone else already pointed out wands. Of course, your monk could take a one-level dip into Wizard, Magus, or Sorcerer and have the spell for free: is that not overpowered?
I guess I'm not sure why it's overpowered in the ioun stone and no where else.
You can always use a caster or specifically a magus designed around the feint manuever, heck you can even use the greensting archetype. With a successful feint you can negate well over 30 of his AC by denying him his dexterity bonus and then spellstriking him. If you just deny him his dex he still loses 18 AC.
Not to pick nits, but I don't see Craft Wondrous being rated all that high in most Arcane class guides. I'll agree that Leadership is generally a ridiculous feat, but Wizards are going to be more powerful if they skip Craft Wondrous. I believe it was Treatmonk who correctly referred to it as "selling your feats" and in so doing, you delay things like Preferred Spell, Dazing Spell, Spell Perfection, Improved Familiar, etc.
Anyway, I think it's a fun feat, but I don't think it is a consensus #2 feat in the game. Ymmv...
Most casters rely primarily on Wondrous Items as their magic items. In fact, 10 out of 13 magic item slots agree and all of the unslotted items as well. Used correctly it can increase your WBL by 50-75% by itself. Dazing Spell and all that jazz is nice, but very little beats what someone who is skilled at selecting magic items can do with that kind of wealth.
Wands were omitted? That's important to know. I saw somewhere that noncasters could cast the item once it was charged, though. Are you sure a monk wouldn't be able to use Mirror Image or Shield?The appropriate response to this is simply, NO. An unslotted item that costs 2K that emulates a slotted item that costs 18K is simply ludicrous. That ioun stone should cost a minimum of 36K.
Also According to the item you must be a caster to use it. You can use scrolls to charge it, but wands were omitted.
From the CRB pg 482-483
A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells
(either divine or arcane, or even a mix of both spell types) that
the wearer can cast. Each spell has a caster level equal to the
minimum level needed to cast that spell.
...
A spellcaster can cast any spells into the ring, so long as the total
spell levels do not add up to more than three. Metamagic versions
of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by
the metamagic feat. A spellcaster can use a scroll to put a spell into
the minor ring of spell storing.
I'm just gonna spitball his AC bonuses because I don't have his character sheet right meow.
10 Base
5 Monk AC Bonus (Monk's Robe brings this to a 20th level monk's bonus)
7 Dex
6 Wisdom
4 Mage Armor
4 Shield Ioun Stone
4 Nat Armor Amulet
5 Ring of Protection
6 Crane Wing/Rod of Balance/Fighting defensively
1 Jingasa of the fortunate soldier
=53?This is far off 60 so perhaps it was a miscommunication on his and I's part, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were more bonuses I'm missing. Targeting Ioun stones feels dirty to me. But any intelligent foe with magic item knowledge would do it if their foe was immune to their attacks otherwise. Right?
Also, this player is the best roleplayer at the table. This is a good example of a powergamer that can roleplay.
+4 from ki
+1 from haste
+1 from dodge
+ 2 from golden legionairre ally
Is 61 I believe
With the shield spell and haste and ki. And figthing defensively after spænding a swift action to entre crane style. I Think that is fine. Does he also have good offense?
Around +26 to hit and expected damage of at least 70 before buffs seem appropiate. I ask because it seems that he is very invested in AC, but i dont Think it looks unreasonable. Most if the time the +4 from the shield is gonna be a wasted action on his part as lots of folks wont hit him anyway. Let him do it and remember that lots of bad guys have other options than attacking the highest AC guy.And thanks for pointene out the rod of balance i had forgotten about that:)
If as a GM you are going to do this, then please tell you players they they may not get a magic Glaive before they put the weapon focus and specialization feats into a weapon.
If someone builds their character around having a particular weapon, then giving them a different one is making them a NPC class by effectively taking away those feats.
No it isn't.
Yes, I do tell everyone very clearly up front if magic item choices will be limited.
You do realize this has the side effect of making casters even more powerful then normal, right? And making crafting feats exponentially better then they already are and Craft Wondrous Item is quite frankly the second strongest feat in the game after Leadership. You are also throwing off the CR system, though this again will mostly hurt martials. In short, your decision has a significant number of consequences which I do not believe you have fully considered.
Telling someone magic items will be limited is just a way of saying "Don't play a martial if your smart."
I was simply responding to the other person's statement. That limiting the magic mart effect would make his fighter a NPC class. (It does not.) And please tell everyone upfront. (I do.)
I never said it was the only rule in my campagin.I have seen no reduction in the number of people playing martial characters or their relative usefulness to the party.
I have seen no great increase in the amount of crafting (virtually none).
The only change in the CR system is I don't throw huge amounts of creatures with DR that they can not yet bypass.
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If you are a level five fighter, and you have weapon training in heavy blades, and weapon focus/specialization in great sword, then getting a heavy flail as your only magic weapon means you are not getting the benefit of your bonus feats, or your only worthwhile class feature if you are fighting something that you need magic to hit.
You have the choice of being a fighter without necessary equipment, or a the equivalent of a warrior NPC class with one.
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Ok, let's say the Hound of Tindalos. It has DR 10/magic. (Believe it or not I was actually having some trouble finding a level appropriate creature that only had DR x/magic.)
1st: I would probably not use something with DR 10 magic on a 5th level party unless it was the climatic battle. In which case, it is supposed to be tough.
2nd: Let's say they are faced with this. Yes, the fighter has choices. He almost always has choices.
He can attack it with his great sword and try to get through the DR with power attack. He can use the +1 Hv Flail which isn't affected by the DR. He can use the Oil of Magic Weapon that he was smart enough to purchase. He could ask the sorcerer to use the Wand (or Scroll) of Magic Weapon that he was smart enough to purchase and loan to the sorc. He could ask the cleric, who was smart enough to prep Magic Weapon since they were going up against demons, to temporarily enchant his blade. He (and his fellows) might decide to drench it in oil, alchemist fire, acid, etc... since they know it is resistant to their usual attacks. He might tank defensively (while taunting it) to draw it's ire, so the archer with the magic arrows can pincushion it. He might acrobatics into position so the rogue can sneak attack it and let his 4d6+2 damage work through the DR. He might even try to grapple it so it can't just keep turning invisible to attack them by surprise. Or he might take out the cleric of ZonKuthon that summoned it before it summons anything else and let his buddies the cleric and sorc blast the Hound into little pieces. Etc...
Against that one creature his weapon specialization is not as encounter ending as it usually is. He still has lots of other options. Against the multitude of other opponents it works as well as can be expected. He is not a warrior class unless he chooses to be so.
In some of my campaigns, an extraplanar demonic thing from beyond should be very difficult and dangerous to fight. In most campaigns, modules, AP's a DR x/magic is completely meaningless by APL 5+ because everyone that uses weapons has a magic weapon. So why even bother to write that the creature has any DR?
So I'll admit; I didn't read the entire thread. The gist of the OP however is that you've got an unhittable monk who wants to pick up even better defensive items?
I say let him.
Seriously, I haven't played a lot of high-level stuff but the most fun and at the same time most boring game I played was being on god mode with tons of the best of everything. My PC was a wizard with a 3pp PrC bent around controlling golems. I had a dozen highly optimized combat/stealth bots, plus an army of Warforged rip-offs and god-like wizard spells. We hit the field for some mass battles and I just wailed on everything. It was great...
And then it wasn't. We were fighting mass battles against gnolls and ogres, and all of us were 18th level. It got so dull after a while. Then we rebooted the campaign and I was a Ranger 1/Cleric 1. Suddenly things were challenging again and I never wanted it to end!
I know my experience was only mine, but perhaps that's all your player needs. Once they're done hacking on god mode for a while they'll get bored. Sure, the monk can't do TONS of damage but without any weakness to target they'll eventually wear down any foe. Let 'em go on like that for a while and maybe they'll just get sick of it and want some new challenge.
Mark Hoover just ended the thread. That's almost always the case when the DM loses control is to simply let it play itself out. Brilliantly stated man.
As for the side road we went down with Craft Wondrous, I don't disagree with the concept that Craft Wondrous is solid. I would rate it as Green bordering Blue in my non-existent Guide to Arcane Casters, but y'all are misinterpreting what I posted. I was simply disagreeing that it's the 2nd most powerful feat in the game. Someone skilled at playing God Wizards (for example) will still dominate play with the normal amount of wealth. Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread, even if Mark Hoover just ended it. :)
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Ok, let's say the Hound of Tindalos. It has DR 10/magic. (Believe it or not I was actually having some trouble finding a level appropriate creature that only had DR x/magic.)
1st: I would probably not use something with DR 10 magic on a 5th level party unless it was the climatic battle. In which case, it is supposed to be tough.
2nd: Let's say they are faced with this. Yes, the fighter has choices. He almost always has choices.
He can attack it with his great sword and try to get through the DR with power attack. He can use the +1 Hv Flail which isn't affected by the DR. He can use the Oil of Magic Weapon that he was smart enough to purchase. He could ask the sorcerer to use the Wand (or Scroll) of Magic Weapon that he was smart enough to purchase and loan to the sorc. He could ask the cleric, who was smart enough to prep Magic Weapon since they were going up against demons, to temporarily enchant his blade. He (and his fellows) might decide to drench it in oil, alchemist fire, acid, etc... since they know it is resistant to their usual attacks. He might tank defensively (while taunting it) to draw it's ire, so the archer with the magic arrows can pincushion it. He might acrobatics into position so the rogue can sneak attack it and let his 4d6+2 damage work through the DR. He might even try to grapple it so it can't just keep turning invisible to attack them by surprise. Or he might take out the cleric of ZonKuthon that summoned it before it summons anything else and let his buddies the cleric and sorc blast the Hound into little pieces. Etc...Against that one creature his weapon specialization is not as encounter ending as it usually is. He still has lots of other options. Against the multitude of other opponents it works as well as can be expected. He is not a warrior class unless he chooses to be so.
In some of my campaigns, an extraplanar demonic thing from beyond should be very difficult and dangerous to fight. In most campaigns, modules, AP's a DR x/magic is completely...
I know he has choices. But when the choice is you can be completely ineffective against the Shadow (A CR 3 creature) or use a fall back weapon that you have no class features in, then it sucks, because you as a DM are invalidating class options. It's not as severe as causing a Paladin to fall in a lose/lose situation or destroying a Wizard's spellbook, but it's in the same ballpark.
If a player has class abilites they should have the ability to use them, even if they rely on a specific weapon. Otherwise being a fighter is meaningless and the class falls even farther behind the Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger.
I know he has choices. But when the choice is you can be completely ineffective against the Shadow (A CR 3 creature) or use a fall back weapon that you have no class features in, then it sucks, because you as a DM are invalidating class options. It's not as severe as causing a Paladin to fall in a lose/lose situation or destroying a Wizard's spellbook, but it's in the same ballpark.
If a player has class abilites they should have the ability to use them, even if they rely on a specific weapon. Otherwise being a fighter is meaningless and the class falls even farther behind the Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger.
I certainly get what you are saying. I also agree that any GM needs to be mindful of the capabilities of his or her party. However, I also don't think the choices necessarily need to be as extreme as laid out in the example.
Will a major city (assuming a non-low magic campaign) have a magical heavy blade available? Almost certainly. Will it be the pretty +2 Adamantine Holy Keen blade that the fighter wants? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps the fighter will just have to make do with the heavy blade with a different set of properties. (and no, I didn't bother figuring out what that would cost, just using it as an example)
So in this scenario, the heavy blade trained fighter still has a very viable weapon available. It may not have all the properties he's looking for, but that won't make him ineffective. Also, as a GM, I would absolutely be mindful of what my players were using on their characters. If the fighter starts off with a hammer, and first chance he gets buys a better hammer, while the barbarian always seems to be going for axes, etc., odds are I'm not going to allow the dice to say "Oh, there's only daggers available in this town." If I were to ever even consider that, there would have to be a pretty darn good reason why.
As for the Craft Wondrous Item discussion, certainly it can be a very good feat. Personally, I don't really have a problem with it. Mainly because it doesn't really make the caster more powerful (assuming he's not crafting to sell to NPCs for monetary gain), rather it makes the whole party more powerful.
All that said, I agree that there are a pro's and con's to both styles of play (i.e. a more randomized magical loot/inventory system vs. magic mart). Neither is strictly better or worse than other, its just a matter of what an individual group or player enjoys. I do agree though that the group should make sure that everyone is on the same page from the beginning though. This way, the fighter that really wants to use say a dwarven Urgosh, probably won't invest the feats until he or she actually has said Urgosh.
I, on the other hand, would be perfectly comfortable saying, "Sorry, only magical daggers in town at this time. But when you ask about magic hammers, the weaponsmith says, 'Have you heard of the Cave of Finding a Magic Hammer?'"
OK, maybe not that name specifically. But I'd far rather my players say, "This is the Flaming Fist of Terror, which I wrested from Garguch the Scorpion Master after battling him on a net of chains above a lake of fire!" Rather than "This is a flame +2 hammer which I bought!"
Yeah that potentially works too. Again you are not really denying the players a particular type of item, just making them work for it. It may be a bit difficult in some instances depending on how closely tied together you want your adventures to be in terms of story. Or, if suddenly none of your players find anything they want to buy and suddenly you're left with 3 or 4 adventure seeds. The multiple seeds at multiple locations are cool. The problem comes when one of those players potentially has to wait three or four adventures to find the item that is particularly effective for him or her.
I agree though, telling tales of the weapon you found/liberated/were gifted/etc., is more rewarding to me as a player than the tells of the weapon you purchased at Magic Mart.
... Also, as a GM, I would absolutely be mindful of what my players were using on their characters. If the fighter starts off with a hammer, and first chance he gets buys a better hammer, while the barbarian always seems to be going for axes, etc., odds are I'm not going to allow the dice to say "Oh, there's only daggers available in this town." If I were to ever even consider that, there would have to be a pretty darn good reason why. ...
I, on the other hand, would be perfectly comfortable saying, "Sorry, only magical daggers in town at this time. But when you ask about magic hammers, the weaponsmith says, 'Have you heard of the Cave of Finding a Magic Hammer?'"
OK, maybe not that name specifically. But I'd far rather my players say, "This is the Flaming Fist of Terror, which I wrested from Garguch the Scorpion Master after battling him on a net of chains above a lake of fire!" Rather than "This is a flame +2 hammer which I bought!"
Bingo, Bango, Boingo, and Bongo. These exactly.
If a city is renowned for having the finest cavalry. I would probably put a lance, light mace, and short bow in the magic item list. Roll the others. If something comes up just ridiculous (land locked nation with a Trident of Fish Command) change that to something at least close to what the players are sing. If they are also closely allied and intermingle with (or conversely often at war with) the nearby dwarf nation; I would probably add in a maul, throwing hammer, and crossbow.
If the PC is really focused on the rapier and can't find what he like; maybe he will chose to travel toward Venicistan where dueling is common, legal, and often done with rapiers.
If it is a really big city or they are searching the whole nation they are very likely to find at least the type of weapon they want (if they didn't pick something really exotic) but what properties it has will be random. If they want to get really picky on exactly X they will probably have to research to find where they can steal... of course I mean recover one. Or they can try to talk someone into making it for them.
10 Base
5 Monk AC Bonus (Monk's Robe brings this to a 20th level monk's bonus)
7 Dex
6 Wisdom
4 Mage Armor
4 Shield Ioun Stone
4 Nat Armor Amulet
5 Ring of Protection
6 Crane Wing/Rod of Balance/Fighting defensively
1 Jingasa of the fortunate soldierIf WBL isn't a concern, and it appears it's not, then these numbers could be pushed up easily with:
+8 Bracers instead of the Mage Armor
+5 Amulet
+6 Belt of Dex
+6 Headband of WisDepending on how much of the Belt and Headband are already figured in, those changes could add up to another 11 to AC.
There are Feats to gain more Dodge and Natural Armor as well.
I do think that all of this should add up to an unhittable monk, who can't do any damage, and who should be bypassed by enemies until they have whacked the rest of the party. At which time a little bit of grappling or touch attacks will likely handle the problem.
I dont Think he looks like he is off WBL with the numbers we are given.
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... I know he has choices. But when the choice is you can be completely ineffective against the Shadow (A CR 3 creature) or use a fall back weapon that you have no class features in, then it sucks, because you as a DM are invalidating class options. It's not as severe as causing a Paladin to fall in a lose/lose situation or destroying a Wizard's spellbook, but it's in the same ballpark.
If a player has class abilites they should have the ability to use them, even if they rely on a specific weapon. Otherwise being a fighter is meaningless and the class falls even farther behind the Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger. ...
Still false. Again 'be completely ineffective' is not anywhere on spectrum list of his choices unless he choses to make it so. And not being able to use all of your abilities against one particular rarely encountered opponent is not the same as the 'you as DM are invalidating class options' at all. If the party encounters a golem did I suddenly turn the wizard into a commoner? It is immune to most of his spells which the class is built around. No, of course not.
Any fighter that is that much against using the flail (though really having a backup that is blunt is a good idea) by the level in your example can easily afford an Oil, Scroll, or even Wand of Magic Weapon. He is not helpless against anything unless he chose to be that badly prepared. The GM did not invalidate his class options, he did it to himself.
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Still false. Again 'be completely ineffective' is not anywhere on spectrum list of his choices unless he choses to make it so. And not being able to use all of your abilities against one particular rarely encountered opponent is not the same as the 'you as DM are invalidating class options' at all. If the party encounters a golem did I suddenly turn the wizard into a commoner? It is immune to most of his spells which the class is built around. No, of course not.Any fighter that is that much against using the flail (though really having a backup that is blunt is a good idea) by the level in your example can easily afford an Oil, Scroll, or even Wand of Magic Weapon. He is not helpless against anything unless he chose to be that badly prepared. The GM did not invalidate his class options, he did it to himself.
Still missing the point. In almost any game world based loosely on the middle ages, swords are more iconic than flails. It's not unreasonable to assume that magic swords are more common than magic flails. There are several more stories about swordsmen than flail wielders. Excalibur, Glamdring, Orcist, the Holy Avenger... These are all swords.
If a character plays a fighter who wants to be a swordsman and devotes his feats and weapon training class features to using a sword, it's a jerk move to give him a magic flail, and then force him to rely on oils/scrolls/whatever to hit incorporeal DR/magic stuff if he wants to use his class abilities with his chosen weapon.
All a fighter is is fighting. They are the second weakest class in the game, and the only thing they have above a NPC Warrior is Bonus Feats, Bravery(Hah!), Weapon Training, and Armor Training. Not having access to a magic weapon of their chosen specialization is a pretty large weakness on a class that is already outperformed by almost any other class.
Whatever. We are pretty far afield of the OP issue here, and we aren't going to convince each other. There is no badwrongfun, but it's clear our playstyles differ.