jim lafflam's page

I could give up the main-gauche for a buckler and gain the +2AC bonus instead...but I would happily take only a +1 AC bonus of the main-gauche for the opportunity to use Twin Feint and the Agile MAP.

My mistake...buckler is only +1 AC.

Thank you to everyone who has participated in this discussion so far. For those who are curious, here is how this character concept started out:

I have an old RPG accessory book titled Central Castings: Heroes of Legend, originally written by Paul Jaquays and published in 1988 by Task Force Games. Basically, it’s a bunch of tables useful for creating very complex character backgrounds, personalities, motivations, etc. I have often used this to discover interesting character concepts since randomization often forces me to consider skills and other options that I might not otherwise consider using. After creating the concept, I then try to fit the concept (as best I can) within the character creation rules of the game.

So for this character, the concept was fairly straightforward. Some of the key things I rolled for was: an Elf in a civilized-decadent society, born into a comfortable social status which changed to poor after the death of her mother (a prostitute), and a fire at an orphanage. Something good happens to her as a child involving a thief, something good happens in adolescence when when saves a child’s life from slavery and the child becomes a lifelong friend. As a young adult, tragedy occurs when she was captured and sold into slavery herself. Charisma and “playing the long game” become important for her to be in a position to kill her captor and successfully lead a slave revolt before then becoming an adventurer.

After doing a ton of research on in-game history, I decided that she was born in 4597AR to an elven prostitute working at the Pleasure Salon of Calistria, in the great city of Absalom, on the Isle of Kortos. After her mother died when she was just three, the ranking Sacred Prostitute abandoned her at an orphanage located in the Puddles. The character does not know any of this, of course, because she was just too young to remember. Her earliest memories are of the fire that gutted the orphanage, leaving her homeless as a very young child. She also remembers terrible storms that ravaged the city just a few years later (which marks the beginning of the Age of Lost Omens). Living primarily in the sewers under the big city (Cavern Elf = darkvision), she survived the big city by using her wits and her charm (so high-ish Charisma, which is good for Deception, which is good for Feint)—filching food, picking pockets, and performing odd jobs here and there (Ancestral Longevity means she can be trained in any skill and scratch out a legitimate living in the big city if needed). Falling in with a thief as a child taught her the first things she needed to become a thief, and since I knew Charisma was going to play a critical role later in her life, the Scoundrel racket seemed like a perfect fit. At this point, I am already feeling the rapier/main-gauche combo. She could use Feint or Twin Feint to set up her own flat-footed opponents when necessary, and then parry with her third action for a +1 AC so she could stay in the fight with a little protection.

I don’t see her as a common street thug. She steals when she needs to survive, but otherwise can hold down a skilled job. She is kind of a lone wolf good-guy when she sticks her neck out to disrupt the slavers on Misery Row (before that was shut down). Finesse and Agile weapons would be important to her, and so too would be the ability to Parry when needed. I know someone had suggested that I should just play a Swashbuckler. But a Swashbuckler does not feel like a Rogue to me. It feels more like an extremely dexterous fighter with a lot of flair (which is cool, just not her...she wants to be the party Rogue for things like sneak attack, picking locks, traps, etc.). I could give up the main-gauche for a buckler and gain the +2AC bonus instead...but I would happily take only a +1 AC bonus of the main-gauche for the opportunity to use Twin Feint and the Agile MAP. As for typical combat scenarios, I imagine she could “move in/sneak attack/move out” and “move to flank/attack/whatever” like other Rogues. But in the event an enemy closed with her, I was looking forward to possible “feint/attack/parry” or “twin feint/parry” to be able to create my own flat-footed opponents when needed, and then boost my AC a little until my next turn (every +1 matters).

Anyway, that’s how it all started. I filled out some more backstory and fell in love with where it was going, but then got tripped up on the Rogue not being able to use the main-gauche proficiently (doh, I missed that one). If the rapier had been left off the list of allowable Rogue weapons in RAW, I would probably not have been trying to figure out how to acquire proficient use of the main-gauche in the first place. But since the rapier is allowed, it only seemed logical that the main-gauche should also be allowed. It appears to me that the reason a Rogue can’t use a main-gauche proficiently without bending over backwards is simply a design oversight. I’m not sure a Rogue needs to be able to use all martial weapons proficiently. The Rogue can already do a lot of cool things that other characters cannot (massive number of skills, sneak attack damage, etc.), so leaving “all martial weapon proficiency” to the Fighter seems fair (though why does an Investigator, Magus and Thaumaturge gain full access to martial weapons? Hmmm...).

If it wasn’t for Elf, I could possibly pull this off with a Human. Or instead, the Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication path list above grants Parry at Level 6, which isn’t horrible. Just too bad she won’t have Parry any time sooner.

In short, unless Paizo decides to errata the weapons that are available to core classes, I doubt this restriction will be removed officially.

Anyway, thanks again for the guidance and good discussion :-)

One correction: switch the levels you take twin distraction and twin parry, since dww doesn't gain access to twin parry until 6

Yup, those would have to be switched. I think I accidentally focused on the Level 4 mentioned in the actual feat description for that one instead of the Level 6 requirement of Dual-Weapon Warrior. Good catch.

jim lafflam wrote:

One thing I failed to mention in the build above, I think I was going to use the Scoundrel racket. That way I could use Feint (with a high Charisma, of course, since I am sooo dashing) in order to maintain flat-footed foes with or without the help of flanking allies. I realize there is a chance I fail the Feint, so I could follow it up with a Twin Feint to guarantee flat-footed foe for my second agile attack. But when I do succeed my Feint, it is good the the end of my next turn, and if I crit the Feint, the foe is flat-footed to ALL attacks. The Parry is just there to protect me a little between turns.

Please remember that feint has the Mental trait: this means it has no affect on mindless creature so you might still want a way to get flank without it.

I had considered that, and had already accepted that weakness as part of the character design. But again, good point.

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Please note this also keeps Exotic weapons effectively 'out of reach' even if you spend an ancestry feat to get access and reduce the proficiency to martial, which means they don't have to be quite as nervous about possibly adding an exotic finesse and/or agile large-die weapon in the future.

No it doesn't: Human [Versatile Heritage]

1st-Free general feat: Weapon Proficiency
1st-Ancestry feat: Unconventional Weaponry [advanced weapon]
13th-ancestry feat: Unconventional Expertise [advances weapon proficiency equals your normal progression]

Good point. The original character concept was an elf (sorry I failed to mention that). But I thought there was a feat path to do what I was thinking for a human, so changing the ancestry could fix it. Just too bad there wasn't a more universal solution at the class level. Again, though, good point.

One thing I failed to mention in the build above, I think I was going to use the Scoundrel racket. That way I could use Feint (with a high Charisma, of course, since I am sooo dashing) in order to maintain flat-footed foes with or without the help of flanking allies. I realize there is a chance I fail the Feint, so I could follow it up with a Twin Feint to guarantee flat-footed foe for my second agile attack. But when I do succeed my Feint, it is good the the end of my next turn, and if I crit the Feint, the foe is flat-footed to ALL attacks. The Parry is just there to protect me a little between turns.

Oh, and I agree Nimble Dodge would be great swashbuckling flair...which is kinda why I was hoping to find a way to ditch Twin Parry by using an Agile Finesse weapon that has Parry baked right in.

Basically, I think I know this so far:

1. I could always house rule this for games I GM.
2. I could possibly convince my GM to house rule this for my character.
3. I could not expect to use this for PFS play unless I convince Paizo to add the main-gauche to the list of Rogue-available weapons (which is unlikely unless they read this and agree--wink wink?).

I also know that I have not overlooked any obvious way to get a Rogue to be able to use a main-gauche as proficiently as a rapier in the current RAW. So, thanks to everyone contributing so far, at least I feel good about not brain-farting something obvious (which is always a good feeling :-)

jim lafflam wrote:

Unicore wrote:

I think it was probably more of a narrative choice than mechanical game balance. As Greystone points out, you can get parry already. In fact, the PF2 rogue doesn’t have a whole lot of two weapon support, so a lot of the choice here might come down to secondary attacks you occasionally make, often with a different rune or damage type from your main weapon, or to have a maneuver trait you want to use often.

From your own description it sounds like the developers maybe see your character as more of a swashbuckler

Perhaps you are correct, but the Swashbuckler wasn't a thing until the Advanced Player's Guide, iirc. Still, perhaps I should look at the Swashbuckler and see if I could add the thieving skills I want to that.

Otherwise, I do have this progressing in mind for a Rogue which gives me Parry at level 4, which isn't horrible.

Level 1: Twin Feint
Level 2: Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication
Level 4: Twin Parry
and then a bunch of other two-weapon possibilities through level 20 if it seems to be working out for me.

In Deities and Demigods, he was a thief 15th level, Fighter 11th level and magic-user 3rd level: so he wasn't any level rogue...

As to the feat options, I think Twin Feint is mostly pointless as Double Slice is better as MAPs doesn't advance until Double Slice is over but Twin Feint's second attack uses MAP normally so it'll be -3 [-5 second attack penalty and +2 flatfooted]. Second, unless you're planning to use hide for your sneak attack, things like flanking and making them prone lasts your whole round so the extra flatfooted isn't going to matter. It depends on how much you want Twin Distraction I guess.

Nimble Dodge, IMO, would be better and still have that swashbuckling flair. That and 6th I'd take Gang Up to make sure you're getting your sneak attack from flanking.

Ah, a fellow AD&D player I presume? I still have my original copy of Deities and Demigods in a box around here somewhere, which predates any concept of "Rogue" at all, iirc. Back then, we were all "thieves" :-) I don't think Rogue was introduced until AD&D 2nd Edition?

Still, I always imagined Cat's Claw as a main-gauche, and not just a simple dagger.

Yeah, I found the following concept on Reddit. I do not yet know how effective this build would be, but with normal thief skills, this is close to what I am imagining. I could do it with a dagger (or even a short sword) as my second weapon. But thematically, I was hoping it could be a main-gauche, which would also grant the parry option at level 1.

Anyway, in case someone is interested in the full path:

Level 1: Twin Feint
Level 2: Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication
Level 4: Twin Parry
Level 6: Twin Distraction
Level 8: Flensing Slice
Level 10: Dual-Weapon Blitz
Level 12: Twin Riposte
Level 14: Dual Onslaught
Level 16: Two Weapon Flurry
Level 18: Twinned Defence
Level 20: Improved Twin Riposte

(edited for spelling)

I think it was probably more of a narrative choice than mechanical game balance. As Greystone points out, you can get parry already. In fact, the PF2 rogue doesn’t have a whole lot of two weapon support, so a lot of the choice here might come down to secondary attacks you occasionally make, often with a different rune or damage type from your main weapon, or to have a maneuver trait you want to use often.

From your own description it sounds like the developers maybe see your character as more of a swashbuckler

Perhaps you are correct, but the Swashbuckler wasn't a thing until the Advanced Player's Guide, iirc. Still, perhaps I should look at the Swashbuckler and see if I could add the thieving skills I want to that.

Otherwise, I do have this progressing in mind for a Rogue which gives me Parry at level 4, which isn't horrible.

Level 1: Twin Feint
Level 2: Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication
Level 4: Twin Parry
and then a bunch of other two-weapon possibilities through level 20 if it seems to be working out for me.

jim lafflam wrote:

EDIT: One last question: I know the rogue can take Weapon Proficiency general feat to become "trained" in martial weapons (so I could use the main-gauche at the Trained level), but I am unsure how I promote that skill level to Expert, Master, etc., since the main-gauche is not in the list of Rogue weapons that can be promoted with Weapon Tricks?

You could get trained in it so you can use the parry but it wouldn't advance past that. A Nightstick [1d4 B, Hands 1, Simple, Group Club; Traits Agile, Finesse, Nonlethal, Parry, Uncommon] or Clan Dagger [1d4 P, Hands 1, Simple, Group Knife; Traits Agile, Dwarf, Parry, Uncommon, Versatile B] can be uses instead out of the box as both are simple. If you're going for the finesse option for attacking, Nightstick is your best bet. If it's just for parry, either will work.

Can you imaging Fritz Leiber's the Gray Mouser fighting with a nightstick named Cat's Claw? just joshing, but still lol :-D

Regarding "future-proofing" and "abuse"...from a game balance perspective, I completely agree with where I think you're going. Sometimes a player just needs to make hard choices. For example, if I want to play a Rogue, then can't have easy access to the (generally) heavier hitting martial weapons. But from purely a thematic perspective, since the Rogue already has access to a couple of roguish martial weapons (the rapier and sap), I guess it just feels like the main-gauche was forgotten about (can't imagine many classic fighters bothering to use it). Either that, or someone did the math and found the parry trait too powerful with all the other stuff a Rogue can do (compared to a dagger, for example). But I just don't see that.

Hmmm, perhaps there is no way to build the swashbuckling thief I am imagining in RAW.

They did fix the parry trait at some point. It no longer provokes. Rogue is still stuck with simple weapons for the most part. Easiest path to martial proficiency is through ancestry feats but nothing specifically for a main gauche. There's a distinct gap in archetypes that make one handed martial weapons very awkward to build for with the simple weapon classes.

Thank you for pointing me in the direction of "they fixed the provoke AoO for parry trait" idea. I KNOW that one (technically unofficial) rule source I have been referencing still specifies that parry is an Interact action, but I just checked my printed copy of the rules (third printing) and the Interact trait has been removed from parry. My bad, I completely missed that. I will mention this to the unofficial rule source so they can fix their copy. Thanks again.

Now hopefully someone can enlighten me on the remainder of my question :-D

I had the idea to play a two-weapon PF2e Rogue character wielding what I considered to be the classic two-weapon combination: a rapier and a main-gauche. Then I discovered that the main-gauche is not available to a rogue by default, which surprised me. Then I spent a lot of time searching The Internets for reasons why the Rogue class should not be able to wield a main-gauche in PF2e without expending extra feats to do so, but so far I have found nothing. So...is there a game balance reason why the Rogue doesn't have the main-gauche available in PF2e as a class weapon by default?

Then I'm confused why parrying with a main-gauche should trigger an attack of opportunity. I mean, my character is already holding a rapier and a main-gauche, makes a first attack with the rapier, and a second attack with the main-gauche, then wants to use the main-gauche to parry attacks until her next turn. What is it about parrying with an already-in-hand main-gauche that causes it to draw an attack of opportunity?

In the end, I know I could use a dagger as the second weapon for the same agile trait and damage as the main-gauche, but I would lose the parrying trait. I find it hard to believe the main-gauche is mechanically unbalanced. I am just curious if there are rules-balancing reasons for this particular combination of rules (before I throw out the whole character design).

TIA for any insight you can provide :-)

EDIT: One last question: I know the rogue can take Weapon Proficiency general feat to become "trained" in martial weapons (so I could use the main-gauche at the Trained level), but I am unsure how I promote that skill level to Expert, Master, etc., since the main-gauche is not in the list of Rogue weapons that can be promoted with Weapon Tricks?