guamae's page

Yes that does make it much better, even if not exciting.

Couldn't you use it at 12 Int now, you'd need to make your hit the round immediately following scanning?

How does an Investigator get claws?

I made an Investigator for a home game meeting every few weeks, we've only played one short session so far (loved the Inspirations, got to do a lot of interesting things with skill/attribute checks). I'm also having trouble thinking of a place I'll fit into combat. Similarly I went Strength/Intelligence (made my character before the latest revision when they still had Sneak Attack) because even if I want to do ranged, I'll want the strength for my Composite Shortbow.

But now with Sneak Attack taken away, the class feels even more one-sided to only being effective outside of combat. The limits on Studied Strike seem too extreme to make it very useful (unless you have 18 Int [very expensive with point buy...] you only have 1 round to make your hit, and you're sacrificing an action to get an extra +2 to hit and 1d6 damage and can only do it once per target).

Maybe it'll get better with Mutagen at level 3 and when I get 2nd level spells, but so far Investigators remind of selfish Bards in combat.

as to weather the mage needs that many points all depends on the style of the game would it not?

That's a good point, for example in DDO they get even more spell points and still regularly run out. Of course all the other classes are similarly buffed as is HP. I was personally trying to keep the general power level of RAW by +Versatility -Spells per day.

Of course in the game i'm play testing in the DM over-powered all the players and is having trouble keeping up. Never really played in any really high level campaigns, but assuming you average 3-4 challenging encounters a 'day' i would assume that your average Wizard will not be scraping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to spells remaining.

(off topic)Maybe it is just the lack of tone on a BBS but this statement reads like you do not agree with a GM utilizing this tactic?

That is a lack of tone thing. Any problem, with any system, can be alleviated by proper DMing.

HP was just my first thought (most games I have been in its not a stat that players take lightly but are not afraid to tap for extra power either). Con is a good choice as well but the pay off would need to be worth the effort... Maybe a sliding scale? Sp equal to your modifier for every point spent with a 1 ability point regained per 24 hrs? or something to that effect. This would require more thought.

The relative value of HP changes based on level. A 1st level wizard with 7 hp is going to be a lot more careful than a 20th level with 100. Con will Always hurt. Also its harder to get back (Paladin, Ranger, Druid, Cleric or anyone with a good UMD skill can whip out a wand and you'll be fine). Of course since Con is so valuable, it should be a better pay-off than 1 for 1... maybe 1 or 2 for caster Level, or for Highest Spell Level SP would be good. Also it could be a tiered Feat Series.

I designed it with slight bump in power (mostly for ease of math). Also I used a formula that assumes a caster would be able to cast the same number of spells they would if using the Vancian system (well it works out like that by 20th level any way.) so yes casters do get a bump at lower levels but it plateaus eventually. Also your original numbers assumes all mage players will always nova. (My thoughts on Nova casters is not repeatable on a board frequented by children or the faint of heart.)

The trick about trying to link up high-level spell equivalence is that no one actually Needs all the spells a 20th level caster gets. The reason it's considered "balanced" is because the chances of your lvl 20 wanting to use all those Magic Missiles lying on the bottom of the stack is highly unlikely or would just be for very "low threat" situations. But if you sub it into Spell Points... those 6 Magic Missiles become a Disintegrate ... and then you gotta wonder whether or not that Wiz actually needs 300 spell points ...

My system is based off of a line in one of the books (i honestly can't remember where) where it says when your caster goes beyond the listed "spells per day chart" the character gets a number of extra 'slots' equal to the highest spell they can cast [21st level wizard gets 9, 21st level Bard gets 6]. And then can assign these to whatever level they want [3 3rd level spells, 1 9th level spell exc].

As for complexity of calculations... that really doesn't bother me too much. I mean, right now, the only way most people know how many spells a 9th level wizard gets is by looking it up on the chart and then adding the value from the Attribute chart. With my system, i might not know off the top of my head how many spell points a 9th level Wizard gets, but i can tell you that they get 5 more when they hit 10th level (number of highest castable spell).

At first blush it looks overpowered but resource management is still the capstone of casters.

Resource management is only an issue when you're likely to get close to running out of resources. This approximately doubles the number of spells from RAW. If that's what you're going for, more power to you (and your players). Personally, i think the added versatility should lead to less spells per day

so DC should be 10 + target caster level or 10 + targets Spellcraft score which ever is higher? I could see that. Or do you think it should be an opposed roll check? spellcraft vs spellcraft?

I generally don't do opposed rolls because it puts in too much randomness (a d20 is already a pretty wide range). I would personally suggest Spellcraft vs 10+Concentration, but leaving the option open would also be fair and follows Bluff.

This abuse only applies to divine casters and it assumes that Desperate Measures would be used to cast CLW on ones self. There is a built in control for that... using the spell in that manner excessively would cause the divine casters deity to determine s/he is abusing their deity granted power. Set the HP to SP conversion too high and it becomes useless to arcane casters.

What would in your opinion be a fair conversion rate that does not render the feat (which is genre appropriate) useless?

Yeah, if you're laying down the Deity Hammer you can stop abuses pretty thoroughly. And i think the 2 for 1 is pretty good for spells using level+1 [though that pricing scheme motivates folk to rely more heavily on higher level spells than lower level (CMW is more economical And faster than CLW)]. Personally i would take out the Feat, but if you wanted to keep it, might i suggest a temporary Con penalty? Noone will burn Con lightly... You can even make a special type of attribute damage where Restoration spells don't work but it all goes away after 8 hours rest.

Spell points per level - as determined by class

• Wizard - 10
• Sorcerer - 15
• Ranger - 2
• Paladin - 2
• Druid - 10
• Cleric - 12
• Bard - 6
• Witch - 10
• Summoner - 6
• Oracle - 15
• Inquisitor - 6
• Alchemist - 6

Additional spell points - are gained every level from high ability scores. Equal to the modifier.
Replenishing SP - regardless of how few or how many have been burned/lost it requires 8 uninterrupted hours of rest to restore ones spell points.
Spell Cost - Equal to the spell level +1
Spells Known - as per class
Bonus spells - Those gained from ability scores are now bonus spells learned by the character every level.

New Meta-magic feats:
Desperate Measures: allows caster to convert HP into SP.
Prerequisite: ability to cast spells
As a swift action a caster may convert her HP into SP for the purpose of casting a spell. 2 HP are equal to 1 SP. (It is possible this feat could kill the caster).

Steal SP: Allows caster to siphon off SP from another caster.
Prerequisite: ability to cast spells and one rank of Spellcraft.
As a standard action the caster may attempt to siphon off SP energy from another caster within a 5 foot radius. A Spellcraft check vs DC 10 + targets caster level is required. The amount siphoned is equal to the 1/2 of the "thief" casters level rounded down. Attempting to do this will provoke an attack of opportunity.

Wow.... that makes for some quite potent spell casters ... your average 1st level wizard gets 5 spells per day? 13 2nd level spells per day at level 3??

Stealing SP is too easy. Skill check vs lvl gives an auto +3 to the skill check. It's similar to Bluff, but the defender should be able to sub 10+Spellcraft if that's better.

Desperate measures is still too generous, again think about using it to cast CLW. Pay 4 hp, get (average) 5 even at first level. As levels get higher the payout is even better.

System Point system that i like.

1st level spell points = Prime ability modifier +1 (example: Wis 16 is +3 modifier for a total of 4 points at 1st level).

+1 point every level there after.

Each class has its own separate pool (for multi-classing).

Recovery of spell points
Sleep per hour = +1 points.
Meditation/No action allowed per hour = +2 points.

..................................

With this system, the caster could cast a spell that he new (kind of like a sorcerer).

1st level = Modifier +1 (again 16 Cha = +3 +1 for level = 4 spells known)
2nd level and every level there after = +1 new spells
2nd level and every level there after = allowed to swap out any spell for a new spell that one could cast.

5th level = 8 spells known
10th level = 13 spells known
15th level = 18 spells known
20th level = 23 spells known.

OR/AND

Spell Book (rare) = caster provide the spell points = Book can be re-used. = Casting time is as spell...

The more i think about it, the more i'm starting to like this system. The only difference i would want to make is to make a lot faster to regain SP, because this GRAPHICALLY reduces the amount of spells per day as listed in the book. If you got SP back per 15 minutes instead of per hour, it would be more realistic to hold up somewhere to meditate and refocus a bit between battles, though still not something you want to do excessively. And have mana regen tied to level... possibly a Concentration check for every 15 minutes of meditation resulting in 1 sp for every multiple of 5 scored (17 on the roll = 3 sp exc).

Plus i wouldn't want to cut down on the spells known as much as you are doing, if at all. If you're taking a 10th level caster down from casting 16 spells a day to 13 to 3-4 they should at least have a good selection of spells. [and i would allow for changing out prepared spells during the 15 minutes at reduced mana regain rate].

I think it was mostly just a hassle to keep track of all the math, especially when you also have to keep track of varying point costs according to whether you're casting certain spells at max level versus lower levels. For instance, with the spell point system, a 9th level wizard has the option of casting a 5d6, 6d6, 7d6, 8d6 or 9d6 fireball, and each version costs more than the last. Plus, they have to recalculate their spell points each time they go up a level. And not everybody had a copy of the UE, so people were having to rely on other players to calculate their spell pools. It really opens up some new and interesting options, but it's also more math to keep track of.

Yeah, i understand not wanting to recalculate points all the time. In my group i've kinda been dubbed 'Master of Points' and tell people what they're at whenever their level/stat changes. I don't really see the need for charging more for a 9d6 fireball from a 9th level caster than a 5d6 fireball... yeah, it kinda makes sense, but that extra level of complexity doesn't really seem to add anything to the game other than drive people to use spells that aren't as level dependant. And if a second level spell is three times as much as a first level spell, it drives you to use CLW all the time.

The other two groups have reverted back to the spell slot system, but with a modification based on the spell point system - they don't have to memorize a spell multiple times in order to cast it multiple times. If a caster has five 4th-level spell slots, he/she can memorize five different 4th level spells but cast the same memorized spell five times, ignoring the others, as long as there are spell slots remaining.

That's a pretty good modification for folks who don't want to change things that much.

So what does the sorcerer get in return? Since the wizard stole his shtick with the 'cast any spell prepared' thing.

In my system the Sorcerer gets twice the spell points from level to help make up for the reduced spell selection (and for being a level behind in the new spells).

I think it is really important that the character using the spell points not be able to cast any more high level spells than they could under the normal system.

I'm looking through the book, and i can't see a lot of examples of spells that would be spammed at higher levels. Once you hit 5th level, i can see casting as many fireballs as possible to do tons of damage. But once you hit 8th level, a RAW Wizard could cast 4 a day, which is plenty. This change just makes it so the local artillery caster can still have access to Tongues if necessary. Maybe Disintegrate, but that has a touch-attack and a Save to balance it out vs Scorching Ray.

Most of the other spells i see seem to be balanced by paying a high casting cost. And even in these systems we're proposing, there would be a limited selection of prepared spells per day. [In my system, even less than RAW because attribute mod only gives more SP and not more slots]

Of course i haven't Played in many high-level campaigns, so i could just be missing a lot of really nice spells.

Wizards get 9 spell points per day. The highest level spell they can cast costs 6 points. The second highest level costs 3. The third highest costs 2. The next lowest, just 1 point. Lower level spells are free, so long as the wizard retained a single point.

This is a neat idea, but sounds Really limiting. A 2nd level caster could only cast 1 1st level and 1 0th level (or 3 0 level). Plus there appears to be no bonus for attribute mods?

one more restriction we placed eventually was that you couldn't cast more than two times the amount of spells of a given spell level than you would normally be allowed on the chart. Thus the wizard above would not be able to cast more than 8 first level spells that day.

That's a very good rule and seems to solve my biggest uneasiness with my system.

... However my Sorcerer will miss his 9 Maximized Fireballs a day....
Heh, or not, Sorcs get 5 3rd level spells at my level anyways :P

Excuse the brief threadjack but the fact that CoC still does less than empowered Fireball, mechanically they do the same (15d6 vs 10d6 + 50% = 15d6)

Yes, that follows for 15th level caster, but if you think of a 9th or 10th level caster, it's quite different: Cone of Cold = 10d6, Empowered Fireball = 15d6.

My experience with elemental resistance is rather limited, though you're probably right on that point.

Our houserule for creating stats is to roll 8d6 three times and build 2 stats with 3 dice each (you may reroll once). This allows more flexibility if you want to get either one high and one low score or two average scores.

My favoured technique is similar, i roll 24d6, drop lowest 6, assign 3 dice to each stat. One thing about doing it like this is that you're pretty well assured an 18 in one stat if you want it, whether or not that counts as a bad thing is up to whatever group you're in.

After further number crunching, my spell system actually allows the casting of fewer max-level spells than the one posted on the d20Srd site (not counting bonus spell points).
Still begs the question of how a non-magic character could compete with a thusly increased caster. But could a Fighter ever really compete with a Wizard at mid/high levels?

New Meta-magic feat:

Desperate Measures: allows caster to convert HP into SP.
1 sp is equal to 2 hp. (It is possible this feat could kill the caster)

Not a good idea. Think of a Cleric converting hp to cast CLW: Spend 2 hp get 1d8+1 back = Entire party is healed (and Cleric has full sp-1) after every combat.

The spell point system i've been toying with is inspired by the casting in DDO (though reduced in power) and is a little simpler than the one on d20srd, and has a higher level-power bias which has got me a little bit concerned.

Spells cost a number of Spell Points to cast equal to their spell level (Cantrips are free, Fireball costs 3[regardless of caster level], Cone of Cold costs 5 [and always WAS a rip-off. Empowered fireballs always do more damage than CoC]).

Primary casters (Clerics, Wizards, Druids exc) get additional spell points per level equal to the highest level spell they can cast: Gain 1 spell point at first level, another one at second level, and 2 spell points at 3rd level.
Sorcerers get twice the spell points per level as a Wizard.

Bonus Spell Points are equal to (Caster Level) x (Attribute Mod) / 4 (round down). [1st level Wizard with 16 Int has 0 bonus spell points, 1 total; 4th level Wizard with 16 Int has 3; As does a 3rd level Wizard with 18 Int].

Prepared spells per day are equal to the charts in Core, unmodified by attribute mods.

Currently, Metamagic Feats take extra time as a Sorcerer, need not be prepared in higher level slots, and take more spell points to cast as stated in the Feat description. [A 6th level Sorcerer with 18 Cha has 30 spell points {Wizard gets 12 at 6th level, plus 6 for attribute*Level/4} and could cast 5 Maximized Fireballs per day, each taking 6 SP and doing 24 damage]
This is starting to look quite a bit over-powered.

The DM of the game i'm trying it with is allowing us to get our casting stats as high as Mod 9 at lvl 10 and we're taking out high level baddies fast enough to gain a level each session. I'm not sure how much of this is the DM and how much is my meddling with casting [how many CR 12 critters are Supposed to survive 2 fireballs and a Flamestrike from a 9th level party??]

That;'s the first time I think I have read of anyone enforcing that rule. I take my hat off to you sir!

Reading through other spells and such, i realized that a quick work-around for this is to use Summon Nature's Ally (which, near as i can tell) does not require any knowledge of the animal. Which would allow for changing into certain dinosaurs, but would restrict elephants till lvl 11 for example (provided the Druid doesn't see one in the wild sooner).

guamae wrote:

All the Huge Animals we could find were either whales, elephants, or dinosaurs. Is that the extent of the animal options for a lvl 8 Druid?

You can turn into T-rex, or giganotosaurus, and you want anything else? What more do you NEED?

Actually the Druid can only transform into animals he's familiar with, so even the elephant is being slightly generous.

So i spent most of yesterday reading and re-reading the books and checking other threads trying to figure out how all of these abilities stack. [in part because of the druid, in part because i got a Fiendish Behir in the next adventure and i want to know how all it's abilities work out] And this is the understanding i came up with (i know some parts of the -20 bit are not 100% what's written in the book from the most literal translation, but i think it's what they were going for).

With Pounce, a Lion would get 5 attacks (Bite, Claw Claw, Rake Rake).
As part of the Bite a Lion gets a free CMB roll to start a grapple, due to the Bite ability it also gets +4 to grapple.

The "Grappled Condition" (which applies to both grappler and grapplee) gives:
-4 Dex,
-2 to Attack/CMB (except into the grapple),
only has 1 'hand' available,
needs to make a Concentration check (DC 10+CMB+Spell Level) to cast a spell,
cannot make opportunity attacks.

In order to maintain a Grapple, you need to spend a standard action to make another CMB check (with a +5 on the check). As part of this check you can chose to:
Move your enemy,
Damage your enemy [Such as Bite damage],
Tie up your enemy,
Pin your enemy, [Flat-footed, -4 AC, Can't move except to try and get away, can still cast spells with no somatic components] but you are also denied Dex to AC (even Rogues),
Swallow your enemy if you have the Swallow Whole ability (opponent takes bite damage this round, and swallowed damage in subsequent rounds).
If you have Constrict, you do your constrict damage on a successful CMB in addition to whatever other effect you perform.
If you have Rake, you get your Rake attacks (as a free action) as part of this action, whether or not your CMB succeeds.

A creature with the Grab ability can a -20 on the CMB check to not gain the "Grappled Condition." If the creature goes this route, it is free to move normally, but must use it's standard action to maintain the grapple as above (still at -20 penalty); or it can take a Full Attack action with one of the attacks being to maintain the grapple and the others to foes either in or outside the grapple. [Bite (Rake {constrict} Rake) to maintain the grapple, Claw Claw outside of the grapple for example].

While Grappled, you can:
Make a CMB check to control the grapple (allowing you to release it as a free action, and gaining a +5 in subsequent checks),
Make an Escape Artist check with a DC equal to the grappler's CMD to get out,
Make an attack with a 1-handed, light or natural weapon (remember -2 penalty),
Cast a spell (with a Concentration check).
If you have Rake, you can make you Rake attacks whether or not you control the grapple.

If you are Swallowed you can:
Attempt to climb back out (CMB or Escape Artist) and end up back in the mouth (still grappled),
Cast a spell without somatic components with a Concentration check (DC= 10+CMB+Spell Level+1/2 Damage Dealt),
Attempt to cut your way out with a light slashing or piercing weapon (-2 penalty to attack due to Grappled condition). If one Swallowed creature cuts it's way out, all swallowed creatures can escape and the original creature cannot attempt another swallow until the damage is healed.

Does that sound blatantly wrong to anyone?

Actually a Giant Lion is stronger than an Allosaurus because Lions get Grab, Pounce and Rake. Of course if they weren't meant to be able to get Grab, Pounce or Rake, the spell wouldn't have said that they could.

Speaking of which, when you're being Raked by a creature, do you get your normal full attack and then the Rake attacks in addition, or just the Rake attacks? Because if it's just the Rakes, the lion's full attack is better.

As long as you don't let anyone go crazy you can apply some templates to give your friendly neighbor druid more options. And not just the Giant Template. Applying the young template so they can be a Roc, for example.

I was thinking about that, but when i read under Polymorph in Transmutation, it said that "Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature." Or are Giant and Young special exceptions to that rule?

So the Druid in my game just got to level 8 and wanted to use the new Wild Shape options. We started flipping through the bestiary looking for a Huge Animal, and couldn't find one quickly, so i just said that he could turn into a "huge lion" so we wouldn't have to spend 10 minutes flipping through the book.

Now that the session is over, i'm thinking that the ability is only supposed to transform you into creatures of the normal size, right?
All the Huge Animals we could find were either whales, elephants, or dinosaurs. Is that the extent of the animal options for a lvl 8 Druid?

Also, Beast Shape III also allows for the transformation into Magical Beasts, and while Wild Shape doesn't specifically say you can do Magical Beasts, it does say you can turn into animals and that follows the rules of Beast Shape III.

Thanks a bunch!

In my personal opinion, I would have this Feat remove the main-hand penalty and keep the -4 for when you're attacking with a shield ... though that's more just my saying that it makes more sense than having anything to do with what's written in the book.