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I think you are forgetting that a big part of the Barghest is the ability to charm monster. So a theme may be those that are charmed and a few outsiders since this is taking place within a city. But I do agree that the Trogs were out of place, they were a substitution for some skeletons I'd placed there that didn't fit either. So do you think I should put a few Charmed people there? Or how about a few outsiders?
Well the previous location thing was part of the adventure. You are to revisit the museum to explore the new basement area. But it doesn't say that the players should know about this basement so that's how I came up with this. I didn't think of that in the first encounter actually. Good catch there. I'll add in something about how they heard this voice while they were exploring the storage area during the reopening process if the PC's dispel the enchantment. I would also advance the characters because advancing does look to be the better solution. The Troglodytes actually were random in the fact that they were a substitution for some skeletons I had placed there. I was thinking that they would have come up from the dungeon level of the Barghest but I noticed I hadn't mentioned anything. Do you have a better suggestion? The "welcoming party" is actually not dominated but contacted by one of the enchanted villagers so I'll add that in. As for the Stat blocks, I left it open until I get to another draft but it would be challenging but not overwhelming for the party to face them. Probably an element of the room or something will help the PC's. Advancing the chokers would be a better idea so I'll add that in as well. I think I was going for 6 chokers at that level but they would still be rather useless and easy.
I attended PaizoCon this last weekend. On Sunday, I had a seminar about adventure submissions for the Pathfinder Society with Joshua Frost, and I learned quite a lot. My submission was rejected of course and for good reason. So I've edited a little and will post the draft I should have submitted, that way I'm not wasting your time and not embarrassing myself with that work any further. I'm open to your feedback as long as it's constructive. SO please, let me have it.
Spoiler: Introduction Blakros Museum, once a famed museum in Absalom, now lies in ruin. After that fated day with the cursed idols of Mwangi, the place has been abandoned and forgotten to time. The council of nobles have come to the decision that the museum should be restored to its former glory, despite the reputation the building has kept since the incident. Now something lies deep within its recesses and has plans of its own. The curse has not disappeared completely. It has manifested itself into something more vile and cunning. It works its foul magics and calls in followers that share its same goals: to help gain control of the museum and eventually a foothold in the everyday workings of the city. Workers from the site have begun to disappear and rumours have begun to spread. One of the more popular ones sounds almost like a dream: a shadowy creature calls out from the darkness to each of the workers. The Pathfinder Society has been called in to investigate these strange happenings to keep the museums reopening on schedule. Adventure
After the encounter, the PC's may search through the workers belongings which will uncover a key and many daggers with strange symbols carved into the blades. The key will be used to unlock the first subterranean level of the museum. Moving down the stairs, they find narrow corridors and lots of debris. It looks like the workers still have a good amount of work to do, but the dust that covers the floor has been disturbed in a few places by something with clawed feet. The players pick up the faint smell of something foul. There are several door ahead on each side of the hallway. When the PC's move forward, the door will open and the Troglodytes will step out.
These rooms are storage areas for displays that used to be featured in the Museum above. Nothing of worth can be recovered because of the stench of the troglodytes permeates them. At the end of the corridor, a set of wooden doors blocks access to the next room. The door is locked but untrapped. Once the Pc's have opened these doors(Strength Check DC 15 or Disable Device DC 20), they find a large room, that once served as a private showing area for the Museum, now is vacant of art and artifacts. The place isn't devoid of life though for several humanoids stand about guarding the hole in the back of the room. A single rope ladder seems to be the only way down it.
A voice calls out from below when all these humanoids are dispatched: "Come no further or your fate will be sealed."
The party come across a burial chamber down in the depths. The voice speaks once more, much closer than before: "I see that you are a persistent but not very wise."
Finally the PC's encounter the source of the voice. Entering the next chamber, they discover a goblin with strange eyes. It grins at their prescience. "I shall not let you ruin my plans." It's shape contorts and it transforms into a hybrid of a wolf and it's original self.
Conclusion
Since I've attended, I've got to say that I am hooked and will continue to make the 2 hour bus ride each year now to this event. It's that good! However, I was wondering if Paizo was planning on running any events at PAX this year? This convention is taking place after the release of the rulebook so that's why I'm wondering.
Honestly, I'd like the same group to run all three quests or a good amount of returning players so if you could do one sign-up that would be great. I'd also like something during the day but don't care if it's on one day or three. I'll be there for all the events. ;)
If I can get my hands on a copy of the Rise of the Runelords adventures, I would like to do them in OSRIC to give them that classic feel. Do you think that's possible? If you are not familiar with OSRIC, here is a link: OSRIC
Marco Volo: Departure, Journey, and Arrival
This is my favorite adventure of all time and I've converted it to the 3.5 ruleset a while back so it's only one hop over to the Pathfinder ruleset. I hope this will work for the convention format because I would like to see the same players for all three parts.
I would love to DM one of the AP's...only if I actually had the source materials though. :( I'd actually like to try something a little crazy with my DMing skillz ;), I would like to convert an old second edition module into Pathfinder and run it for the event. I'm open to suggestion on the adventure at this time as well as volunteering for running any of the games that will be available.
Though we do agree that humans don't need the proficiency, I'm just pointing out that Clerics don't gain martial weapon proficiency. So Dwarfs and Gnomes are screwed on their racial proficiencies if they choose a class that doesn't have access to martial weapons. Elves however still get there's. Weapon Profs are something that shouldn't be given out too freely.
I would have to agree with Daniel on this one for the will saves. Iron will covers the low will save pretty well and a Player would rather get the resistence cloak than spend one of their precious feats. But in the same respect, giving the fighter a equivalent of a spell ability could be good as a feat ie. your freedom of movement feat.
This idea I like because it can be flavored that the fighter uses his strength to break free of the hold. The only thing that I see as a problem is that this feat makes the other will save one useless for the purpose that you created for.
This is a good start but I find it a little more powerful than a normal feat. You not only get to move as a free action in place of an AoO but you also get to stop your enemy and make him roll to move. 3 actions for the price of a small one would need to be tweaked a little. Maybe if we divide this into two feats or make one part of it a fighter ability and the other a feat. So the two parts I see as needing seperating are: 1. The movement action.
Now 1 is perfect for a feat. Instead of using a AoO or giving up the next rounds move action(Not sure what would be a good balancing factor against the movement), the player could choose to move. 2 would be great as a feat or it could be a better fighter ability. Now anyone near the fighter would have a harder time moving past the fighter. Now would stopping movement be the goal or how about taking a note out of the Knight's book and make the area he threatens difficult terrain. Now I'm not saying that these are truly more balanced than Kirth's idea or should replace them. But these are here for some thoughts.
I don't agree that Magic should be the ultimate form of power either but thats the stance that games have been taking since DnD came out. I would like to step away from that but find that magic is the most versatile and balanced effect(Excluding some spells)in the game. If a wizards fireball is far more effective than a fighters sword swinging, why is that. Well it covers a 20ft radius. It does 1d6/level of the caster. And the caster can cast the spell while under fire using the 3.5 rules. The only element I can be removed from that equation is the Spellcraft/Concentration check making wizards lose there spells if hit. Now what part of that can a fighter gain? The damage is not what makes the spell good(because it's only usable 1/day/slot)but the radius of the spell is the culprit. Now a fighter shouldn't get an attack with that range but maybe if he could swing his sword in the area around him multiple times a combat, he would be just as effective. Now this already exists in the game as a end of a feat chain. Whirlwind is good but it's requirements are a little steep(Prereqs: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.) And it requires a full attack option. So the fighter is stuck in place to perform it's area attack and that's if he has all those prereqs. Now I know all the fighters I build could qualify for this but I have seen many fighter builders buff up strength the most and not look at dex and int as stats they would need. Con usually overshadows Dex let along Int. Maybe if the feat was reworked a little to allow this to happen as a standard action, the fighter could move and provide an area attack. I mean, it requires spring attack for crying out loud. Why would a mobile character stop dead in his tracks to do one area attack a round? I have no problem with your suggestions Kirth, they are in the right ballpark for what the fighter needs, they just need to be worked out more like mine. Damage is the last thing on the list that I would love to truly tackle. Right now, maybe we need to focus on what a fighter could do that's similiar to magical effects for battlefield control. IE: Trip, Sunder, Grappling, Radius attacks, etc.
My original point that may not have come through was still this, why do humans need that extra weapon prof? It makes no sense since no one but elves in 3.0 had them, then, in 3.5, dwarves and gnomes gained familiarity(Still not a proficiency if you didn't have the martial weapon feat). Humans already have a bonus feat and don't need another one. Dwarf Fighter start with 3 Feats: 1 from 1st level, 1 from Class, and one from familiarity and that's if they choose to use it.
Dwarf Cleric starts with 1 feat: 1 from 1st level. Now where is his familiariaty?
To me, the human losing one feat is not a big deal. He has more than enough to compensate.
Well I'm not thinking that a +1/2 a level will cut it exactly. That's just like a small bonus leading up to a +10 total bonus on damage which can be achieved by a Power Attack without much penalty. I think the idea of increasing weapon damage as if he were a size bigger or just making the weapon damage double what it does would be more helpful. Taking one out of 4e's book there though. I agree that a Taunt mechanic is not ideal. I would like to a sudden shift or something that involves movement for the fighter. I've seen a few feats that actually accomplish this in 3.5. But the overall problem with this, it gives the fighters a good number of actions that other characters just don't have which the 3.5 ones took away actions from the fighter. If the fighter has a movement based counter, that means he gets a free move action every round that an enemy goes to move past him on top of what his normal round of actions. I'm not saying that it hurts the game but it can lead to some bad synergy juju. Other than that, I think we could come up with some way to make battlefield control, weapon and armor master to work for the fighter without giving him a boost to face off against magic(Which btw, 1e did no better than any other addition with the problem of wizard and warrior). Magic is meant as the ultimate form of power. Fighters are nor wizards are special in it's eyes because it effects them equally(Have you seen finger of Death or disintegrate hit a wizard? Scary if the wizard survives).
The only three things I can agree on with the OP is... 1. Smite should over Good DR or the DR of Evil Creatures. Now there is a catch though, if the creature has DR/Adamantine or DR/Silver etc., it shouldn't be able to overcome it because smite is an alignment based ability. So if the Evil creature has DR/Evil, Chaos, Godd, Lawful etc. those could be over come by the smite. 2. Smite could be applied to a Ranged attack. The catch here would be if the creature was within 30ft. This is similar to the ability that RotW gave to Elves but since it's not OGL, we have to come up with something else but I still don't think it should span the entire battlefield. 3. Smites should not be expended on a miss. I don't know of many abilities in the game that are expended on a miss. Just the smite. The reason I agree with these two and none of the others is that I have been doing some playtest with the paladins as well with all martial classes. I found out some statistical numbers that would suggest that the paladin's once per day smite is much better than a once a day Rage. The barbarians rage adds 10% to an attacks chance to hit for that barbarians combat. A paladin's smite can be anywhere from 5% to a 20% (Cha 12-18) increase to an attack in combat. I don't know a Paladin that would take a 11 or less charisma nor one that would have it under a 14 because of the save bonus he gains as well. Once more, even if the paladin uses the smite, he doesn't risk any harm to himself while the barbarian is suffering a -2 to his already low AC. So the paladin that uses a smite against an evil foe gains a tremendous bonus with no penality except once per day and a Barbarian gets that same bonus for a combat while hurting him even more. The trade off is nice if you look at it that way.
I think you forget that Elf Fighers don't get anything out of their weapon proficiencies either. So why are you not arguing for the Elves? Dwarves and Gnomes lose their racial weapons if they play anything that doesn't have martial weapon proficiencies. Do they need that fixed as well? I think the races racial weapon abilities are just fine the way they are, though I think the free human weapon prof needs to go.
I'm not sure if a fighter should be able to do all this because there are other classes that this overlaps with. *Speed and melee damage is the Barbarians role in combat. Fighters could benefit from this but that's not their role. The fighter should be a combat tactician instead. *Having them be more resistant to spells or prevent spellcasting is actually bad for fighters to have because most of the spells in the game have been designed specifically to stop fighters from reaching wizards. If you decide to give fighters more options to beat a wizard, the wizard quickly moves down the track from ubergood to the suck in no time flat. The reason that's true, the pc's are not the only fighters in the world. So the things a Fighter should do could look like this. 1. Control the field of battle around him. That means preventing enemies from moving past him and keeping them engaged with him. Trips and Grappling of good ways of achieving this but so are boasts and intimidation. 2. Though this is for all melee builds, the fighter should do appropiate damage for it's level. Weapon damage plus Strength mod and any other little bonuses really are not enough to keep up with damage outputs of other classes. SO maybe the should be a weapon damage increase for the fighter at every 10 levels or so. 1 die of weapon damage at 1-9, 2 die of weapon from 10-19 and so on. IT's not a big increase but it's meaningful. 3. Fighters, unlike the other classes of martial characters, are supposed to master of weapons and armor. So getting better bonuses with them would be ideal. Now that is the role that a fighter should be able to handle without hurting other characters roles. Now if you have been 3.5 for some time and have enough splat books, this is possible and I think beta has done a good job of covering this as well. The only thing that is not covered is number 2 but I can live with that because if the fighter can do number one well, that's enough for his class.
I wasn't looking for the abilities to change in a combatant type of way but more along the lines of they evolve past normal animals in the same way. Other flavor elements could be added in as well. So familiars would gain more HD/HP and the abilities that all the animals of a magic user/divine caster would have but the wizards familiar is smarter than the normal while vs. the druid's animal companion which is hardier(the ac bonus and stat boosts). When I mean common abilites, I'm talking about things like Share Spell, Empathic link, etc.
Half races have always been problematic in a sense. They always seem to favor one race over the other and it made sense in 2nd Edition but not in 3.5. Humans in the older edition had no bonuses so being a Half something meant you gained some of the abilites of your other half and the human versatility which then was to play any class. When 3.5 came along, the half races kept there same abilities and the humans gained some abilites as well. So humans didn't add any abilites except that same versatility to the half race in the switch. That is the problem. Now I don't know if I would like to a see a change so much as a little addition like Paizo has already done. I think a little more skills could go a long way instead of stat changes. The +2 Wisdom on the Half Orc really doesn't make sense but it can as well. It can be viewed as a side effect of the halforc being an outcast and learning life's lessons quicker or something. That's what seperates them from their parents.
Why does it have to be different though? That's the point I'm making. Each of the "Pets" in 3.5 had similiar gains but the druid had the cream of the crop followed by the Ranger. Sorcerers, Wizards, and Paladins had limited choices and had more restrictions on what happened when their's died. So maybe the lists should be opened up so everyone has more choice, less restrictions on death, and a uniform system of what each gains and at what level so that there is less confusion on what pet should have what.
I like the idea of system unity but I don't think that there should be a shift in the tiers yet. It's a Riding dog for crying out loud. All the character could do is RIDE it! I think that unifying the system should be the idea discussed here, not what you deem is tier worthy. Now to the discussion at hand. Pet rules are fairly similiar. Pets of most classes gain abilities at the same levels are are quite similiar in gain. Paladins and Rangers are just 4 levels behind the curve while Druids, Clerics, Sorcerers, and Wizards get a slightly stronger one. Other than the flavors of each animal, I don't see much difference between the abilities gained. Maybe the HD/HP system should be a little more unified for animals?
Some things to consider why a monk has a lower BAB. Stunning fists: This ability his one of his most helpful abilites and will always be useful. Once the creature is stunned, you can tear into it because it will have a lower AC. Improved Trip: So when the monk trips the opponent, doesn't that lower the opponent's AC? If so, the monk then can flurry with no problems from the enemy. Improved Grapple: Yes, it's most affective against mages but when you are going against other medium sized creatures and you initiate a grapple, you are looking at the chance to flurry while grappling the SOB. That's right, 5 attacks against an opponent that can't necessarily retaliate. With abilities like these, and employed well, the monk does not need anything to augment his BAB. Those things would help him in straight up combat but that's not his thing. He meant has a shock trooper type character with great mobility and an in and out mantality.
Actually I'm against it and I have used so many stat methods, it's not even funny. With a point buy, you are less likely to get the Int you want because of MSD than if you were to roll it from my experience. I think though the reason people want more stats is because they are looking at what they want to be doing and not what the character should be doing. A fighter is designed with the idea that he is a combat specialist. Skills are useless to him because his main role is to fight. That's why he has the best armor selection and weapon selection and so many feats to shake a stick at. With that many feats, if he were to go guard or something, he would then take the time(Feat) and up his alertness and maybe even focus on the skills. Otherwise, his training is all about combat. That's how he was designed and meant to be played. I understand that people want to see their character work differently than what the game was designed for, but I don't see why the game has to be designed for those people when the game works well the way it is. Anywhos, if any skill changes are to be made, I support the 3/4/5/6 method of 4/6/8 method. There should be a difference between a barbarian and a fighter and a druid.
Here is the second installment of the conversion of heroes from DnD to Pathfinder. For a link to the old Mialee, here you go. Here is what I have made. 1st Level 3.0 Ability Score Modifier
Initiative Modifier: +3
Saving Throws:
Gear:
Feats:
Skills:
Spells:
Special Abilities:
1st Level Alpha 3 Ability Score Modifier
Initiative Modifier: +3
Saving Throws:
Gear:
Feats:
Skills:
Spells:
Special Abilities:
Some things I noticed between this conversion and the one with Jozan. 1. Mialee has 1 less HP than Jozan. That makes a large difference but that's because of the Toughness feat. 2. Mialee took me less time to convert because the wizard changes were easier than the clerics. I will put her through the same playtest that I put Jozan through. And on another note, I will level them up to 4 and 7 after I get the majority of the characters completed. Tordek is next followed by Lidda. The playtest for Mialee will be coming soon.
I've done the tests with the current skill points and changing them and I came to the realization that the skills could change but it wouldn't need to be a major overhall. Alpha has aready done a good job of making skills easier to choose. Your points go farther now then they did before. But sadly, the fighter is the only class that did not really get an improvement. If anyone really needs the skill ranks per level changed, it would be this class. But in the same light, if we are changing skill ranks per level, the rogue would have to be dropped down to 6+Int to keep his skills in line. At level 10, he has too much to really deal with because lets face it, some skills at higher levels are useless. Dabbling in them for a few levels seems like their true purpose. But I agree with Jason and SirUrza on this, leave it as is. The system works fine and better than the 3.5 system. That Fighter can do a lot more than it's 3.5 counterpart with skills. If you want to have Int has you dump stat and still be skillful, why did you make Int your dump stat? Is Str, Dex, and Con so much more imporatant for gameplay than having a chance for more skills and opening up your combat expertise feat tree?
That's my plan. I hope to have the Jozan portion done soon so that way I can move on to Tordek. Surprisingly, they didn't list the stats for Regdar. I just have Mialee, Lidda, Jozan, and Tordek but those should be enough to really compare 3e with Alpha. This thread is moving over to the Alpha 3 forum so you can see it unwind over there.
I've run my second test now and the results were the same. Jozan is a support character. That's what his powers are designed to be and what his role is in the party. Some things that should be noted about the test. 1. I didn't change the adventure in anyway. I left it has is. The changes to skills and such have made it easy to just run it as is. 2. The CR's of the Critters would suggest that the fights should be easier but they were just as difficult. 3. Even with the channeled healing, Jozan could not keep the bolts from hitting. It just delayed the inevitable. 4. I didn't get a chance to use the Halberd in any of my test because Jozan wouldn't have used it realizing that the pirates are ranged combatants. Paizo has kept the cleric in his role nicely. He is a support character and not meant as a killing machine. The bonuses that Alpha put out are allowing to use his other spells for buffs and crowd control. I will continue this over in the Alpha 3 forums and add the updates that 3 has brought out. I also will look over my notes with Alpha 3 in mind and see what it changes.
Ok I just ran a 3.0 Playtest with Jozan from 3.0 and he failed miserably. His role was definately a support role. This is the guidline to see if Jozan Alpha is indeed improved and viable against future tests. Notes: I only ran 5 Encounters for each.
Pirate Patrol: 2 Human Warriors CR 1/2
Lizardfolk Scout: Lizardfolk CR 1
Note: Now these where the only two exact encounters in the crawl, there are several other options for the next part. The next part is very difficult because it's EL is 4 so there are multiple ways to handle it. Since Jozan was not able to persuade the Lizardfolk for help and I needed to test how Jozan can handle a situation, I decided on the Divide and Conquer method. Jozan would have gone to town for militia help if that option was available and made the combat easier from this point on. Inventory and Appraising Loot:
Hiding Loot: 4 Human Warrior Cr 1/2
Pirate Camp Patrol: 1 Human Warrior CR 1/2 and 1 Dwarf Rogue CR 1
Preparing a Meal: This encounter is much like the inventory one except add two more warriors.
General Activites: This encounter will be explained later. It's the bases for the final fight. Nighttime: Since Jozan is not able to see in the dark and would need to carry a light source, this option is not fully explored. Too many variables to factor in. I classify this as a certain loss because Jozan has no way of completing this task successfully.
Final Fight: I used the General Activities to set up this encounter, it's the most probable way Jozan will enter the camp. I also factored in that if he had successfully take out the first mate in the patrol encounter.
Total: 2 Probable Loss, 4 Certain Loss At 1st level, the cleric is so much a support character, he could not accomplish any of these goals with a 50% success rate. Now that I have these results, I will test the Alpha 2 Jozan against and we will see how it stacks up.
I got bored so I decided to do a side by side comparison of 3e's Jozan to Alpha's Jozan. It's interesting to see what has changed. Also, I plan to do a little playtest with the characters that I convert. Whether or not it's appropiate, I will be using the 50%/CR system for the tests but I will use a published adventure to determine the challenges. I will give links to the adventures so you could follow along and links to the NPC Jozan's page on WotC. The test will only go up to 7th level because that's the highest level the PC's go. This may give us a little idea of what got more powerful and actually look at what the adventurers are expected to do in an adventure. Jozan, Human Cleric of Pelor
Ability Score Modifier
BaB/Grp: +0/+1
Saving Throws:
Gear:
Feats:
Skills:
Domains: Good, Sun Spells: 0-level: Virtue
Special Abilities:
1st Level Alpha 2 Ability Score Modifier
BaB/CMB: +0/+1
Saving Throws:
Gear:
Feats:
Skills:
Domains: Good, Sun Spells: 0-level: Virtue
Special Abilities:
That's just junk. I can't believe WotC is pulling this crap with their new game. The OGL was genius and abused but it lead to an interesting industry and many products for us consumers. Without the OGL, WotC would have floundered shortly after TSR but with the other companies publishing books based off the game, it kept them alive. Even games like Mutants and Masterminds using the OGL still lead people over to try DnD. The games were the same and allowed for a large dichotomy of choice. With the new GSL, we won't see as much.
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