Human fighters gain nothing from the free martial weapon proficiency

[Mosaic]

Humans get a free martial weapon proficiency, but so do fighters, so human fighters lose out. Maybe in the case of a human fighter, the free martial weapon proficiency should get upgraded to a free exotic weapon proficiency. That would also lend itself to the stereotype of humans as being drawn to the strange and diverse.

[Gurubabaramalamaswami]

I'll jump on this bandwagon and "vote" in favor of that ruling.

[seekerofshadowlight]

I do believe Jason said that was gone...so mote point

[Gurubabaramalamaswami]

He did? They really need to set up a "Changes Made" board to let us know this stuff.

So we can b@$*~ about it endlessly and engage in endless circular debates about it.

[Dennis da Ogre]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I do believe Jason said that was gone...so mote point

Mote Point? I know you hate when people talk about your spelling but pretty funny oops ;)

I hadn't heard Jason say that was gone but it wouldn't surprise me. All the races have some martial weapon profs that are pretty useless for fighters. In any case, all the free martial profs are there to benefit the non-fighters not the. Dwarves are the only ones who get a nice exotic weapon proficiency right now. I think Jason said there might be something on the way for halflings... maybe all the races will get a decent exotic? If they do then it might make sense to give humans the bastard sword.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Heh I don't mind folks poking fun of me, just as long as they don't come off as better then you ass's.

[Arakhor]

I strongly disagree with the idea that all humans suddenly sprout bastard sword proficiency in the name of "balance". That's ridiculously gamist. Even setting aside whether they get the free weapon in PF any more, why do they need it (and how do they justify it) in the first place?

[Dennis da Ogre]

Arakhor wrote:

I strongly disagree with the idea that all humans suddenly sprout bastard sword proficiency in the name of "balance". That's ridiculously gamist. Even setting aside whether they get the free weapon in PF any more, why do they need it (and how do they justify it) in the first place?

Heh... I don't really think they should get any EWP but I think the idea of them getting a wide open bonus EWP feat on top of their human bonus feat is a little ridiculous. My suggestion of Bastard Sword was a compromise.

[fliprushman]

I think you forget that Elf Fighers don't get anything out of their weapon proficiencies either. So why are you not arguing for the Elves? Dwarves and Gnomes lose their racial weapons if they play anything that doesn't have martial weapon proficiencies. Do they need that fixed as well? I think the races racial weapon abilities are just fine the way they are, though I think the free human weapon prof needs to go.

[Dennis da Ogre]

fliprushman wrote:

I think you forget that Elf Fighers don't get anything out of their weapon proficiencies either. So why are you not arguing for the Elves? Dwarves and Gnomes lose their racial weapons if they play anything that doesn't have martial weapon proficiencies. Do they need that fixed as well? I think the races racial weapon abilities are just fine the way they are, though I think the free human weapon prof needs to go.

Elves get a martial weapon prof. Halflings ,humans, and gnomes are the only ones without an exotic weapon prof.

Well Halflings and gnomes have "any weapon with" XXX in their description but there are no exotic weapons for them in the equipment section. Elves, Dwarves, Half-Orcs all get specific exotic weapons. Unfortanately for barbarian orcs their weapon sucks but it is there.

Personally I don't see any reason for humans to get EWP or even martial weapon proficiencies listed so whatever.

[Marty1000]

fliprushman wrote:

I think you forget that Elf Fighers don't get anything out of their weapon proficiencies either. So why are you not arguing for the Elves? Dwarves and Gnomes lose their racial weapons if they play anything that doesn't have martial weapon proficiencies. Do they need that fixed as well? I think the races racial weapon abilities are just fine the way they are, though I think the free human weapon prof needs to go.

Actually elf fighter types get the eleven curveblade exotic weapon for free under the proposed system. We know dwarves get two exotic weapons -Urgrosh and Waraxe.

That said, I say no to human fighter types getting free bastard sword and i further say take these exotic weapons away from the dwarves and elves and whoever else gets them because of racial familiarity. They are more powerful weapons, effectively give an elf or dwarf fighter the equivalent of a human's 1st level bonus feat, in fact, technically, the dwarf gets two bonus feats.

Once again no free exotic weapon prof to ANYone regardless of race. This was a 3.5 add-on (it wasn't in 3e or earlier). It is time to subtract it.

[Dennis da Ogre]

Marty1000 wrote:

Actually elf fighter types get the eleven curveblade exotic weapon for free under the proposed system. We know dwarves get two exotic weapons -Urgrosh and Waraxe.

Umm yeah, that's what I was trying to say... fingers got ahead of brain.

Marty1000 wrote:

That said, I say no to human fighter types getting free bastard sword and i further say take these exotic weapons away from the dwarves and elves and whoever else gets them because of racial familiarity. They are more powerful weapons, effectively give an elf or dwarf fighter the equivalent of a human's 1st level bonus feat, in fact, technically, the dwarf gets two bonus feats.

Well technically all the non-human races have potentially infinite bonus feats. Paizo could release a book filled with "Dwarven XXXX" weapons and because of the wording of the trait they are proficient with them all... I guess supplemental material is always like that though. Jason's already hinted there will be racially flavored weapons all around in the final version.

[fliprushman]

My original point that may not have come through was still this, why do humans need that extra weapon prof? It makes no sense since no one but elves in 3.0 had them, then, in 3.5, dwarves and gnomes gained familiarity(Still not a proficiency if you didn't have the martial weapon feat). Humans already have a bonus feat and don't need another one.

Dwarf Fighter start with 3 Feats: 1 from 1st level, 1 from Class, and one from familiarity and that's if they choose to use it.
Human Fighter starts with 3 Feats: 1 From 1st level, 1 from Class, and from race. So who cares if they lose the weapon. They are still at the same powerlevel as a dwarf fighter.

Dwarf Cleric starts with 1 feat: 1 from 1st level. Now where is his familiariaty?
Human Cleric starts with 3 feats: 1 from 1st level, 1 for race, and the weapon proficiency. How is that fair to any of the other races?

To me, the human losing one feat is not a big deal. He has more than enough to compensate.

[Daniel Moyer]

As it was setup in the most recent installment of Pathfinder Beta, Half-Elves are the only ones that don't have a martial weapon proficiency out of the gate, racial or otherwise. Poor Half-Elves have come a long way, but are still slacking behind in this aspect or were if the humans no longer get it either.

I noticed it when browsing races while making my latest character a Sorcerer. He has a high dexterity for ranged touch attack spells and I figured I could make him just as useful as anyone else in melee for a few(1-5) levels with 'Weapon Finesse' no longer requiring a BAB+1 in PF-Beta.

EDIT: Dwarf Clerics have access to their 'Deity's Favored Weapon'. They don't get the racial familiarity because the weapons, despite being racial, are still MARTIAL... War hammer, War axe, or otherwise. At least I think, I don't have the book in front of me because I'm hard at work, hardly working, lol.

EDIT2: And to weigh in on the post's actual topic. I don't think the human or any other race deserves any special treatment (extra replacement feats) just because they can already use something due to racial preferences.

[DivineAspect]

In the Golarion Setting we've used regional weapons as human types, so for example the Varisians have those neat scarf weapons as their human weapon proficiency.

EDIT: Err, realized I was in the Design Forums. So Howabout specifying a regional tool or weapon as a weapon proficiency?

[Dennis da Ogre]

fliprushman wrote:

Dwarf Fighter start with 3 Feats: 1 from 1st level, 1 from Class, and one from familiarity and that's if they choose to use it.

Human Fighter starts with 3 Feats: 1 From 1st level, 1 from Class, and from race. So who cares if they lose the weapon. They are still at the same powerlevel as a dwarf fighter.

Well this places no value on other racial traits. As far as I'm concerned dwarves come out ahead after you add in slow & steady, darkvision, etc.

fliprushman wrote:

Dwarf Cleric starts with 1 feat: 1 from 1st level. Now where is his familiariaty?

dwarf wrote:

Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers, and treat any weapon with the word "dwarven" in its name as a martial weapon.

Right there, he gets choice of 3 martial weapons. Frankly, dwarves and elves are pretty well taken care of in this end of things. Halflings and Gnomes get the shaft on this end of things with gnomes getting only an unnamed exotic weapon prof and halflings getting the sling (a simple weapon which nearly everyone gets anyhow) and unnamed halfling exotic weapons.

fliprushman wrote:

Human Cleric starts with 3 feats: 1 from 1st level, 1 for race, and the weapon proficiency. How is that fair to any of the other races?

Now here I agree with you, humans shouldn't get weapon profs. Half elves... I'm not so sure about them but not humans and definitely not an open ended version.

[Dennis da Ogre]

DivineAspect wrote:

In the Golarion Setting we've used regional weapons as human types, so for example the Varisians have those neat scarf weapons as their human weapon proficiency.

EDIT: Err, realized I was in the Design Forums. So Howabout specifying a regional tool or weapon as a weapon proficiency?

I like the idea but the IMO implementation belongs in the campaign setting, not in the core rules.

[flash_cxxi]

Mosaic wrote:

Humans get a free martial weapon proficiency, but so do fighters, so human fighters lose out. Maybe in the case of a human fighter, the free martial weapon proficiency should get upgraded to a free exotic weapon proficiency.

I've thought this exact thing for a while now and would totally agree with this happennig.

Also: I liked the idea that they all got one free Martial WP. Makes them all slightly different and means that you can have a "signature" characterwithout sacrificing a Feat for it. eg. a Wizard who wields a longsword but isn't a fighter. Why was there a need to get rid of it. It didn't really "break" humans now did it. One extra Feat and One Extra Skill Point don't really stack up to some of the abilities that the other races have.

[fliprushman]

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

fliprushman wrote:

Dwarf Cleric starts with 1 feat: 1 from 1st level. Now where is his familiariaty?

dwarf wrote:

Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers, and treat any weapon with the word "dwarven" in its name as a martial weapon.

Right there, he gets choice of 3 martial weapons. Frankly, dwarves and elves are pretty well taken care of in this end of things. Halflings and Gnomes get the shaft on this end of things with gnomes getting only an unnamed exotic weapon prof and halflings getting the sling (a simple weapon which nearly everyone gets anyhow) and unnamed halfling exotic weapons.

Though we do agree that humans don't need the proficiency, I'm just pointing out that Clerics don't gain martial weapon proficiency. So Dwarfs and Gnomes are screwed on their racial proficiencies if they choose a class that doesn't have access to martial weapons. Elves however still get there's. Weapon Profs are something that shouldn't be given out too freely.

[Daniel Moyer]

fliprushman wrote:

Though we do agree that humans don't need the proficiency, I'm just pointing out that Clerics don't gain martial weapon proficiency. So Dwarfs and Gnomes are screwed on their racial proficiencies if they choose a class that doesn't have access to martial weapons. Elves however still get there's. Weapon Profs are something that shouldn't be given out too freely.

I'm gonna copy & paste direct text from the BETA PDF, since my first post got bullrushed to the wayside...

The following are class features of the cleric.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient
with all simple weapons, with all types of armor, and with
shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient
with the favored weapon of their deities.

Deities of the Pathfinder Chronicles:
Deity & Alignment - Favored Weapon

• Erastil LG - longbow (martial)
  
• Iomedae LG - longsword (martial)
  
• Torag LG - warhammer (martial)
  
• Sarenrae NG - scimitar (martial)
  
• Shelyn NG - glaive (martial)
  
• Desna CG - starknife (martial)
  
• Cayden Cailean CG - rapier (martial)
  
• Abadar LN - light crossbow (simple)
  
• Irori LN - unarmed strike (simple)
  
• Gozreh N - trident (martial)
  
• Pharasma N - dagger (simple)
  
• Nethys N - quarterstaff (simple)
  
• Gorum CN - greatsword (martial)
  
• Calistria CN - whip (exotic)
  
• Asmodeus LE - mace (simple)
  
• Zon-Kuthon LE - spiked chain (exotic)
  
• Urgathoa NE - scythe (martial)
  
• Norgorber NE - short sword (martial)
  
• Lamashtu CE - falchion (martial)
  
• Rovagug CE - greataxe (martial)
  

TOTALS ::: 13 Martial, 2 Exotic, 5 Simple :::

I count 13 Martial and 2 Exotic weapons that a Cleric can be very familiar with, assuming you're ONLY using PATHFINDER DEITIES. Dwarf & Gnome Clerics have at least one option, even if they don't get their racial weapons. The other point I'd like to mention would be that PATHFINDER does not have specific RACIAL DEITIES, adding these could get your Cleric that Hooked Hammer or Waraxe (or Urgrosh) you want.

SIDE NOTE: Most of the time you only have to ask your DM, assuming the request isn't too outrageous, you can get what you want.

[Dennis da Ogre]

fliprushman wrote:

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

fliprushman wrote:

Dwarf Cleric starts with 1 feat: 1 from 1st level. Now where is his familiariaty?

dwarf wrote:

Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers, and treat any weapon with the word "dwarven" in its name as a martial weapon.

Right there, he gets choice of 3 martial weapons. Frankly, dwarves and elves are pretty well taken care of in this end of things. Halflings and Gnomes get the shaft on this end of things with gnomes getting only an unnamed exotic weapon prof and halflings getting the sling (a simple weapon which nearly everyone gets anyhow) and unnamed halfling exotic weapons.

Though we do agree that humans don't need the proficiency, I'm just pointing out that Clerics don't gain martial weapon proficiency. So Dwarfs and Gnomes are screwed on their racial proficiencies if they choose a class that doesn't have access to martial weapons. Elves however still get there's. Weapon Profs are something that shouldn't be given out too freely.

Ok, I'm not sure what you are getting at but all dwarves (even a dwarf wizard) get proficiency with the weapons I bolded above. The Weapon Familiarity thing is 2 tiered, races are granted proficiency with some martial weapons which helps the non-martial characters, and they gain "exotic as martial" which helps the martial characters. Dwarves are not 'screwed' on any front when it comes to weapon proficiencies dwarf clerics get the battle axe, warhammer, or pick, all martial weapons.

[Douglas Mawhinney]

Several people have mentioned that Gnomes and Halflings have "gotten shafted" in the weapon proficiencies. I know that not everyone has a lot of books but there are a lot of racial weapons out there.

Halfling
-Skiprock
-Warsling

Gnome
-Hooked Hammer
-Calculus
-Tortise blade
-Quickrazor
-Swordcatcher
-Battlepick

Orc
-Shotput
-Double axe

Ogre
-Greatsword (ie. fullblade)(This one may be streatching it a bit)

Elf
-Thinblade
-Lightblade
-Courtblade
-Double bow
-Curveblade

Goliath
-Greathammer

Dwarf
-Waraxe
-Urgosh
-Buckler-axe
-Warpike
-Doublespear

Koa-Toa
-Harpoon

Salamander
-Longspear
-Shortspear
-Halfspear

Chuul
-Lasher

Goblin
-Stick

So if anyone is going to be shafted with this new system, its the poor Goblin. The halfling weapons are actually kinda nasty and Gnomes have more than even elves and dwarves!