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I agree, elemental blast should take zero actions, only my mercy and my natural lifespan as a player should limit how many I can make in a round.

I should have specified to a minimum of one action. I just kind of assumed since it's standard in the system that one action activities wouldn't become free.

This would be interesting. Although you'd probably have to tac on "once per turn" to overflow abilities. If they add stoke element or some other 1 action damage booster as a core feature, you could have a variety of different routines on your turn, like gather + overflow + blast, or gather + stoke + overflow.

Overflow already has the "once per turn" restriction.

Apologies if this is a bit rambly, I know I am not the best essay writer.

tl;dr: A class feels bad if their bread and butter combos cost 3 actions as the "third action question" is one of the most interesting and unique parts of the system. To fix this, they should standardize 1 action impulses so you can blast + impulse on the same turn, and either add more ways to gather for free or make gathering itself be more interactive (like Gunslinger or Magus)

Most classes are built on having a go-to 2 action combo/ability and a third varying action, with the occasional 3 action combo being more exclusive/rare. Since there is very little cost to using Blast the first time, you always want to Blast at least once each turn, filling up the first action slot. Almost nothing can compete with this, in the same way Demoralize cannot compete with hunted shot if you had to choose only one. That leaves 2 variable actions each turn. Since most of the "good" impulses are 2 actions (to match spells), you have what is effectively an optimal 3 action turn that is dramatically better than having to leave off one action.

This is the same problem Magus had, where they had no flexibility in their action economy to interact with the most fun and unique mechanic of the system.

On their "off" turn they are slightly better, as they are able to Gather + Blast, although gather + impulse or gather + 2 action blast is still so much better that it's hard to justify using using that third action for Demoralize or movement.

So how does one fix this? My suggestion is to first reduce the action cost of all impulses by 1. This would allow Blast + 2 action impulse to leave 1 action remaining to do... something with, similar to Magus' 2 action spellstrike. This is also why I don't advocate simply removing the overload trait: Splitting the action cost over 2 turns allows the Kineticist to have a variable first turn, in the same way Magus's spellstrike allows the spellstrike turn to have more variety.

Of course, this idea is only half baked, and is more of a suggestion of lines to think along for designers rather than a request to copy paste my system into the game. I understand abilities will need to be rebalanced, and ideas such as disallowing overload and gathering on the same turn will need to be considered to meet these goals. That being said, I think this is a good starting point for revisions of the class.

After playing a level 8 one-shot, I think the action economy can work. The 2+1 and 3+1 cost spells encourage you to do multiple different things each turn, and combo together multiple turns. For air (what I tested) Blast + Boomerang into Gather + 2 action blast felt very good, and leans into the strength of being able to make an attack roll AND a spell save in the same turn for max value.

On the other hand, this further restricts the usage of overflow per combat, and lends credence to the argument that they should be more compareable to focus spell strength. The "infinite" argument means little when you use them twice per 4 round combat. For my two cents they should have legendary DC, but that won't actually increase the power of the class in any noticeable way most of the time and is mostly a QoL change.

Because the class is designed around what is effectively a 6 action basic combo, even using a single move action can noticeably reduce your efficiency. I won't say this is a bad thing just yet, but I wouldnt be surprised if having built in 3rd action choices that are almost mandatory means common 3rd action options will go unused, and the support systems built into the game won't interact with the class.

Going back to the main topic of this thread, the biggest problem is the payoff. The unique action economy can work, but this means you get maybe 2 overflow effects off per combat. The damage on the damage overflow is way to small, and the fun utility effects are way too underwhelming. It's easy enough to buff the damage on the damage overflow, but the utility effects will need more creative solutions.

Great write up! I was initially confused why so many people wanted burn back, but I found your arguments very convincing. That being said, I have to disagree with your conclusion that blast and impulses should be connected. Impulses having their own varying costs and damage let's them have much more fun and unique effects, even more so with the reintroduction of burn. Going the other way might hurt the "feel" of the class, as from preliminary playtesting it seems like elemental blast -> other impulse is a core feeling. I think a simple damage buff on impulses, giving the blasts the two-handed trait, and replacing overload with burn would a more fun solution than forcing the player to choose between bread and butter basic damage and other more unique effects.

roquepo wrote:

I agree with the general sentiment of the class being really low in overall damage and power. I think the biggest contributor to this is the relation between action cost and the power level of said actions. In actuality, all overflow abilities take 1 extra action due to the need of gathering the element. I think the gathering mechanic in isolation is perfect, but its execution and implementation has been a bit sloppy and the overall impact it has on the class has been underestimated (similarly to reload in the Gunslinger playtest). I have a personal idea on how strong I think this feats should be in relation to their cost:

3+1 actions: Should be on par with on level spell slots. They are not limited but as if they were since you need 4 actions to set them up. They should also be slighly stronger than that if their effect is not completely frontloaded on the turn they are used. Buffs like Earth Mantle should never take 3 actions to cast, the worst the action economy is, the worse an effect that does nothing with those actions gets, since the pay-off comes later.

2+1 actions: Comparable to 2 action focus spells, maybe slighy stronger. Out of combat both of these get as many uses as they want and in combat, unless it drags out, you will get 1 to 2 uses for both, but with worse action economy for the Kineticist overflow abilities in exchange of being more reliable than focus spells.

1+1 action: On par with cantrips. Maybe a bit weaker since you can split the action cost.

1+free action/reaction: Comparable to low level spell effects in relation to the level you get the feat.

I will try to organise a playtest session and see for myself if my thoughts on this remain the same.

... I don't think they are underpowered. For the simple reason... That there is no limit of how many you can do in a day.

That doesn't automatically make it good. A spellcaster would suck if they just used cantrips, even if they can be used infinitely per day. In my experience spellcasters only ever run out of their highest level slots, and never their second highest or worse slots. Additionally, most combats don't last so long that spellcasters need to burn considerable non-focus resources.

If kineticist is going to be a con based class anyway, blasts would be better off as spell attacks with the class having legendary class DC/attacks. At high levels you end up with only -1 under a martials to hit (same as it is now with full handwraps and Apex item to str/dex) but also have legendary class DC, 2 higher than now (3 if the plan now is to put Apex item into str/dex instead of con)

At level 19 this is true, but there are many levels before that where spell accuracy is -2 or -3 compared to martials, getting as high as -4! This would swing too far the other way and make elemental blasts feel worthless.

Is anyone else somewhat disappointed by the lack of options to wield elemental power in two hands? The effects seem to be balanced around being able to wield medical tools, a shield, a scroll, or have an empty hand. The problem is, not every character will want to have their other hand full flavor-wise. I think it just feels bad to be forced to pay a power tax for something your character might not like.

Oh I get it would be stronger. I was assuming Paizo would nerf the elements in some other way in exchange, which is something I should have included in my original comment. As it is, it feels odd that they have an entire core class features built to get around elemental immunities, and yet only one element actually uses that feature. Especially since I can't see wood or metal dealing elemental damage.

EDIT: I think Nitro-Nina has the right idea. Having multiple attacks you choose between would be the perfect solution.

Agreed. If they really wanted to they could give Air and Water the versatile trait, which could be a nice compromise.