Zourin's page

It sounds like a case where the entire party rolled for straight combat and no utility. Players' choices aside, who'd hire a bunch of combat mercenaries for what amounts to a covert heist? DM plot choices aside...

There are two avenues:
1: Charisma is not a party dump stat: "The Bardic Knock Spell". If you've got a high diplomacy or bluff skill in your party, and you're convincing enough, a good DM will quietly applaud the 'path less traveled'. A less good DM will simply railroad you into the grinder. You really only get once chance to simply 'ask nicely' for said map, but it's a possibility since you can at least enter the premises without raising an immediate alarm.

2: Charisma is a party dump stat. Hope that Ranger isn't just a quirky fighter and actually knows how to 'range'. Look for a back door or other path of least resistance, either inside or outside the fortification. "Fortifications" can often involve a hidden exit to the outside, or possibly a nearby cave system comes conveniently close to the basement or somesuch. If you're lucky, it'll lead you to your little vault. If you're not lucky, it'll be a sewer. If your DM is less good, you'll get railroaded into the grinder.

This sounds terrible, both as a situation to be walking into as a new player, and as a kind of game being run by a newbie DM.

Run! These are not the friends you are looking for!

Strike 1: Newbie DM running a medium-to-high level game off the cuff
Strike 2: Player playing an Evil
Strike 3: Player threatens party members and wants to exert control over new players game decisions
Strike 4: DM is cool with this.
Strike 5: Rules lawyering against inexperienced players.
Strike 6: Ambiguous rules borrowing from two different rulesets.

I don't know how to make this red flag bigger. I really don't!

The easiest way, at the start of the game, lay out what CAN be played that you are ready to incorporate into the world. Some players may balk, but the players you want are the people who stay and play.

My homebrew dates back to when I first played AD&D as a newbie GM on OpenRPG, and every game I ran, a lot of them one-offs, went into cobbling together something bigger. One of the legacies of this is a small continent, and restricted race availability due to how I had built the world and just how big a newbie I was at the time.

I've had to loosen the nuts in adapting from 2E to 3.X (which was a lot more diverse), and I'm doing it again in the latest evolutions into PF. 10 years of sporadic development, but it's still the same game world, and all the old territories, npc's, and unfinished campaign devices exist.

It's not a world built from PF RAW, but one that's been adapted to it, so there's going a lot that doesn't line up. This is different than, say, Golarion, which was designed from the ground up around the the unmitigated orgy of everyone-having-babies-with-everyone to allow everyone to jump in with whatever, and the buffet of rapidly released mechanics that didn't even exist conceptually back when I started world building. It's put pressure on me to incorporate many of them somehow, as either evolutions of the game world or having simply been there the whole time. In some cases, some content just doesn't exist or have room to. In others, it filled gaps I needed.

In my case, I can take the gaps between incomplete campaign attempts (historically seperate, but canon in some fashion) and make the world flex with new content, but I still have to say 'No' to a lot of things that may contradict precedent or larger narratives, and I am up front about it.

If I pay 10000 gp for a magic sword from the crafter CheatYaMaximus, then get it stolen soon after, and then find out that crafter BuildsItCheaper, could have sold me the same sword for 7,000 gp, but with a build-in anti-theft.
Do you really think I'll EVER take my return business to CheatYaMaximus again?

CheatYaMaximus saw you as a sucker and a newcomer, and you bit a 10kgp scam. He's not planning on seeing you again, he has enough regular business (or regular suckers) satisfied with his work to keep in business, and so far nobody's noticed the sell-and-steal game.

RPG games typically hand-wave artisan quality and gives everything a generic quantification. It also generally assumes honesty in the seller and competancy in the crafter. In reality, both of these factor in, as well as their ability to market their skills, which can generate sales despite being a lower quality. In business, you can compete (honestly) in either price, quality, or service. Successful businesses focus on one of these.

Just like how you have two gas stations across the street from one another, one selling gas for 3 cents higher, yet there are still cars being filled up on both sides. Maybe the 'higher price' is more convenient, maybe it's a higher quality, maybe their customers are convinced of one or the other. Maybe one still has a guy that runs out and cleans your window for you.

More economics.. yay. Now I gotta stab something.

I don't know of any business that wants it's products resold.

Allow me to introduce you to Microsoft, Nvidia, AMD, Intel, ATI. Their products are sold to manufacturers (chips and OS) who incorporate that into their own designs and effectively 'resell' their suppliers' product plus their own.

Allow me to also introduce you to most American car dealerships. MSRP is the manufacturer suggested profit margin. Dealerships may be associated with multiple auto manufacturers, but they aren't run by them in many cases. Dealers resell multiple different brands of cars they purchased from the manufacturers, and also resell used cars.

Tradesmen routinely buy up items or have business deals with crafter A (and B, C, and probably more) and move them to places where these items can demand a price. This works for both the manufacturer, who is able to routinely sell products to sustain a living, as well as the trader, who gets a profit in the resale. That's how Amazon works, friends! They don't make ANY of that stuff themselves!

I agree. You can make anything horrifying. For example. I have, and can, scared people with small rocks. I f'k you not. Rocks.

As the players go about, they'll undoubtedly be rolling perception to find all the little goodies you find laying about. Among them, simply mention ".. and a rock." Just one. They'll make note of it.

Whenever they do their easter egg hunt again, add, ".. and a rock." It can be a small. round, palm sized rock of no particular significance, just laying on the floor.

Eventually, this rock will receive scrutiny. If they ask if it's the same rock, respond "you can't tell" or "Maybe". Investigation reveals no alignment, magic, life, undeath. It's just "A rock."

Things will get freaky for them real fast if they decide to 'mark' the rock. The next rock they find will also have this mark. This may be an entirely different part of the world. This rock will continue to appear off and on when they make a 'room exploration' perception check. You have them hooked now and can cut back on the frequency of when this rock appears. From time to time, when they do their easter-egg hunt check, cue the return of "...and a rock."

If they destroy this rock, they find two rocks, both with the same marking. If they keep destroying these rocks, take this to Blair Witch territory where they start seeing these rocks everywhere, in small piles, on benches, hanging by moss from the ceiling. Perhaps a natural stone section of wall has a large 'mark' on it. it becomes something they immediately notice upon entering rooms, or perhaps appears in places where it wasn't a moment earlier.

Don't overplay it too fast. This should proceed over the course of several sessions. If they start getting freaked out, have these marked rocks pop up in even more unlikely places, like on shelves, on their pillows in Inns, on bars, in holy water fonts in temples. Wherever. If they look for it specifically, it's probably not there unless they already found one.

If there are NPC's around, nobody finds this strange, or there's some perfectly plausible explanation. Maybe there's one sitting on the throne when the King isn't sitting in it. Just let this rock screw with players and have fun with it. :)

Double post, but this one is VERY involved and may be a bit of reading.

It also shouldn't be put anywhere near a paladin, or anyone who is sensitive to piles of F-bombs. Be prepared for one hell of an NPC.

Bertrand the Smith

Bertrand's Blade

The problem I have with the hydra is.. well.. it's dumb as a dog turd, and usually played dumb as a dog turd.

A hydra is a g~&-d&%n vicious critter if it hits and submerges over and over, taking even a few rounds to regenerate body hp and multiply its heads, then Pounce starting movement from below the water's surface.

A hydra played away from the waterline better be a much stronger hydra, the CR4 version is better played in a favorable environment.

If you want a more dangerous hydra, either hit and run to regenerate, or have it take serious objection to the first yokel who chucks fire at him and do an overrun to the back line. Yeah, he's got 5 heads, he saw you do that, Fishstick-fingers. Now you're gonna wiggle a skid mark while it overruns the front line to eat you. Pounce+Overrun is valid in a single round if it makes that maneuver check.

What is pathetic is that a Huge creature has less strength than your average fighter.

It's not so much a monster, so much as an oddity item.. but it's a critter.

A short backstory, I had a VERY paranoid rogue. Virtually every round, turn, room, bend, or five foot step, he would roll perception. Out of sheer boredom of this, I simply responded "You see a rock."

Everytime he rolled and there was nothing to see, i'd simply tell him "You see a rock."

He became suspicious, and leery. "Is this the same rock?"

"You can't tell."
He whips out a wand of Detect Magic.
"Is it a magic rock?"
"You can't tell."

A few hours later. "You see a rock."
"Is it the same rock?"
"Maybe."
Now he's completely weirded out that he's being stalked by this tiny rock.

This is enough to freak out just about any player by itself, but he was a good sport and one of my better players. I decided, on the fly, that it was a tiny, amorphous metal-based critter with the ability to imbue metal items with the properties of other metals or low level enchants that it has touched before.

Suffice to say, he was thrilled to have a new pet rock.

Telepathy + The most annoying song you can think of

No DM's going to see that coming the first time you do it.

8 str and 8 con. Unless there's some supernatural power, she has no muscle mass and really looks like she could use a cheeseburger. She's not moving a couch across a room without considerable effort, forget about lifting her own weight over her head.

Looks alone would be 14 cha, only lower if she's socially inept or has 'issues' dealing with people. She'd probably get more than one free drink at a pub before she opened her mouth.

You can't tell Wis and Int by looking. You also actually can't tell Dex by looking, since even someone of apparent grace can still be a total butterfinger, and even a muscular person in heavy armor can have surprising reflexes and sense of self-position.

You also can't tell Con above 10, since there's no way to really tell the difference between 'healthy' and 'vibrantly resilient'. If she didn't look almost bulemic I'd cut her the 10.

If you're going by japanese RPG standards or teen-boy standards, she's straight 18-20's across the board with an AC of 20+.

If you want to see what 16+ str looks like:

The most fun adventures are ones where every magical item is something to hold on to, because it's not candy. Players seem to have been cuddled into this belief that the loot has to conform to their 'builds' and that there is a magic Amazon.com in every city where Deckard Cain runs the registers and they can simply exchange the stuff they find for what they want.

Adventures are more fun when the players get creative with the tools they're provided. You don't need 'high magic' for that. No, you can't have that flaming holy two-handed oversized greatsword you specced for. You've got a pile of holy water, a regular greatsword, and a cleric that's bleeding out because you thought the chest in the back of the room was more important.

But, I digress...

I find DM's forget my First Rule of GM'ing: Never let players know when, why, or how you cheat.

I tend to play with close groups (sadly, coworkers I have to work with), and I can't tell you how disruptive it is when the DM simply announces at some point about how he pulled punches and saved so-and-so from dying, or lays out a festival of obscene saving throws and suddenly gets a deer-in-the-headlights look when people don't pass his Save-or-Suck lightshow.

Here's what I do. I happen to be cooking an adventure at the moment so I can give a living example.

1: Player count and total gold dispersal. Generally speaking, I like to avoid them going out of control, so I go by 80% to allow me room to toss in unquantified awesomethings of my own creation. Say 4 players, 3,600 gold in 'material'.

Here's the big part...

Half of that value I embed in the terrain. I make my players very well aware that knowledge, proffession, and other 'min/max' "Trash" skills are profitable. Everything from reliefs, architecture, random stray books that may be laying about, paintings, small scupltures, etc. The dungeon would have about 1,800GP in stuff that would otherwise have no value except to those of particular proffessions. A rubbing of an elven relief painting or a mural from a lost dwarven fortification? Small gold mines for the appraising eye.

These are things that are not immediately quantifiable. I just make note of what they find, and it's up to them to find people who value their finds. Maybe it's a blacksmith hard up for scrap metal. There'll be bits of scrap strewn about in all sorts of places. Maybe it's a pile of old books where a few of them may be of some academic significance to someone somewhere. Etc. Min/Maxed and one-trick-wonders will find themselves modestly poor if they go by whatever they get off kills. I find this to keep their power in check, and try to get them more engaged in their environment other than waiting for the next initiative roll. There may be some red herrings here and there, such as a skunked keg of ancient dwarven ale, but generally, there are things to take home for the appraising eyes. I can gauge this value as I please at a later time to adjust for how the players are doing.

That leaves a very modest 1,800-2,400GP in articles to seed into more direct forms of loot. Immediately, close to half that go into consumables and mundane articles that can be repurposed into serviceable condition (torn chainmail, bent swords of exceptional quality, etc). So 900-1,200GP is enough for a few permanent magical trinkets. This I'll usually decide on the fly for whoever's having the worse luck of the session. I wouldn't tell them that, of course. A find is a find, congratulations lucky bastard.

The worst thing to do is "feed" players loot via combat and allow them to 'meet their GP quotas' that way. Most combat should be as fruitless as it is challenging, leveraging the good stuff in more reasonable (or entertainingly random, as I prefer) locations.

So.. how am I breaking down that 'embedded' loot?
Well.. lessee..
400gp in assorted blacksmith scrap metal (Prof:blacksmith/appraisal)
5x80GP reliefs (rubbings) (Appraisal/Prof:Scribe)
1x100gp ancient historical account (book) (knowledge:history)
1x100gp Abjurer research journal (knowledge:arcana)
4x100gp relief art/statue (sketch) (Prof: Engineering/history/scribe)
75gp copper chicken sculpture (appraisal)
1x100gp historical account (prof:soldier/scribe)

That's about 1500gp right there easy enough. These are things that can help add details to an environment, as well as a supplemental source of income. Remember, Players should be -interacting- with the environment. Don't look. Touch.

The best solution would be to incorporate more hazards and puzzles that don't simply resolve via napalm. Leave the combat aspects be for now, but pose otherwise impassable obstacles that may, on closer observation, be more easily circumvented by using some of the lesser used class features.

Not everything needs to resort to combat solutions. Combat solutions are very difficult to deal with if you train your party that the only way they are going to be challenged is by fighting things. Once you start having to throw enemies with immunities on the field, you're on the defensive for control.

That said, tone down your itemization, lean back more on hazards, secrets, more hazards, and probably a few extra hazards. Also, never let your party rest as a cop-out. If they're not scared and bleeding, they don't need to rest. I like brown mold outbreaks :) One campfire, a few stray spores, and an hour or so and PFWOOOFPH, so much for a peaceful rest :)

It depends on the strength of the GM and their preference.

For a while, I was so intimately familiar with the rules, the game world I created, and generating a strong narrative, I literally just lounged on the couch coming up with s*&* as they played along, occasionally faking rolls. I'm damn good at improvising everything, not so good at sitting down and trying to cope with drawing a dungeon like a four year old.

As far as combat went, a narrative GM should never be mapless, just perhaps without the talent or time to actually draw them out in full. The map should be in your head, and at the start of every players' turn, you should be describing their position, hinderances in terrain (walls, penalties), and relative distances to one another. If taking a five foot step would cause an archer to still risk shooting an ally in the head, you need to take this into consideration and warn the player ahead of time that this would not be an advantageous maneuver. Furthermore, if the rogue wants to flank, you have to mentally visualize the path and warn about AoO's that they may normally draw.

The important thing is that you should be able to, at a moments notice draw it all out for everyone if they feel things are too complex. It is important for the players to be able to trust you to maintain the combat field and relay to them the hazards and consequences of what they physically cannot see.

It isn't something I advise for new GM's. World building is a bit of a skill, and it helps to physically build a couple before you start winging it. I've seen bad experiences happen when novice GM's take the field with just the book and their imagination.

If you do opt for narrative, remember it's a lot harder to avoid breaking what is my number one rule: Never let the players know when, how, or why you're cheating as a GM.

Harrison wrote:

A room... WITH A MOOSE!

A room with a tile that turns whoever steps on it into a Moose!

Well.. there was this one time I stabbed a munchkin with about a dozen or so of his own baneful polymorph arrows...

Any brothel where the GM asks for a fortitude save.

Save or Suck is one of those things I find is best adjudicated by the DM more than the dice (although the dice should handle most 'doesn't really matter' scenarios). It's a test of how tuned a game world is, as well as a test of positive control the DM has over the players.

Let the players control themselves and neglectfully allow them to get too powerful, and you'll never threaten them in the slightest, SoS or otherwise. Vice versa, don't hose them with saving throws or they're going to get frustrated and seek self-control to become immune.

As I say. First rule of DM'ing. Never let the players know you're cheating. Rule number two: Cheat liberally to keep things fun. Rule Three: Never allow a player/character to become powerful enough to defeat the DM.

Monsters played properly are fun as hell.. If your monster has special abilities like movement, immunities, or range and you're taking advantage of them.

Vampires are one such critter. They should be personally harassing the crap out of the party whenever the priest has his back turned.

Dragons in an open environment should be breath harassing the snot out of the party trying to get them to break ranks. Blacks in swamps are just as nasty. Ever see a black dragon pull a crocodile move at a shoreline?

Kobolds. Kobolds are nothing if not a bottomless bag of fun and hazard, ranging from comically hapless to absolutely diabolical.

A personally fun staple monster for fresh characters are Krenshar. They're usually off-beat enough that they feel new, scary enough to make a fight feel challenging, but simple enough you can throw them out there and not have to worry about the players too much.

If (as a GM) you don't want to have to monitor the creation process, then simple point buy is good depending on how intense you plan your game to be. If you trust your players, this gives them time to plan their characters and flesh them out. On the downside, I find this provides a lot of time for power players to prep their rules lawyering. For new players, this time is a good thing.

For experienced players, I prefer a roll-on-the-spot character creation and get things rolling ad-hoc with little to no prep time. Everyone rolls their 4d6-drop-1's and they can pick among each others' roll-sets for what stats they want to use. Max HP for the first few levels, average starting gold, no magical/alchemical starting items other than class features if applicable.

This is fair since others can partake of others' fortunes, while also shaking up my anything-they-can-get-away-with munchkins *cough* I mean, coworkers I can't ditch.