A bit of a player killing issue

[Killer Triangle]

I hope this is the right forum, sorry if it isn't I am new to the forum. And I apologize fo

Anyhow Hello, I would like to say that I am new to Pathfinder and I haven't played D&D in several years due some really bad luck with DMs. Anyhow to add to my confusion we are playing a so called "Halfinder" using rules from 3.5 mixed in Pathfinder. My issue is that the current DM is okay with player killing and has a whole side story written out if some of our characters die, the issue is that well I there is a guy in the group who keeps telling me about how he is going to kill my character and how I will not have a chance of saving my character without metagaming. He has listed a few ways of doing so but I have no idea if he actually can but I haven't had a turn with any of the books since then.

His first method is the spell Magic Jar, I understand I get a will save but I am playing an 8th level fighter with a very small will save and as I didn't know that pvp so I had no preparation. He says that he can take my body and adjust my sword just right so that when he switches back I will impale myself with my own sword without me having a fighting chance aside from a will save.

His second method involves an instant kill spell called Phantasmal Killer, I understand that I get 2 rolls one with fortitude and another with will. He claims that my bravery bonus only applies to intimidate and not fear based spells.

His third and final method is to wait until he becomes a lich, unfortunately I don't even know what book that is from so even if I had access I am not sure I could find it. He says that he can create a phylactery and as long as it exists he can not be killed by any means and that until it's destroyed he doesn't even need to worry about negative HP. I told him I would destroy the phylactery but he claimed that as long as it is within 60ft he is fine and that he will just bury it before the battle if he didn't have time for his alternate plan.

His alternate plan has him throwing the phylactery into another dimension, when I said that another dimension is a little over 60ft he argued that I wouldn't know and that it could be an alternate universe overlapped with ours.

Another important note is that this is the DMs first time being a DM, He feels that magic items will ruin the balance of the game so I have no access to magical items to protect myself. When I asked the DM about all of this he said "Don't worry if it does happen I will resurrect your character as one of his minions" when I explained that being a mindless zombie didn't sound fun to me I got "Don't worry I'll make it fun."

I need help on how I should handle this situation, if he is either cheating/misinterpreting I don't wish to make a huge fight over it but instead calmly point out that the rules state otherwise. I don't wish to metagame and attack him first and my character currently has no reason to distrust him. To be honest I'm half worried even if I bring up all the appropriate counters and information that I will still die as right now it feels like this is the route the DM wants to take it and I'm really sad to see my best friends campaign turn from something I looked forward to every week to something sour.

Anyway sorry for this very large post

[Rynjin]

Your run of bad luck with DMs has continued. Find one that isn't an a!$%#*@, and a group likewise.

Though your buddy is flat out dead wrong on the Phantasmal Killer thing AND the Lich thing (to an extent). Bravery applies to ALL Fear effects. Phantasmal Killer is a Fear effect.

And Liches can be killed. They merely reconstitute in 1d10 days if their phylactery still exists. So you could happily murder him, and then laugh uproariously when he can't get back to the Material Plane because he stashed his Phylactery elsewhere.

See, you reconstitute where your Phylactery is. Without your gear.

Meaning, even if he still has Plane Shift prepared, he can't get back to the Material without a tuning fork tuned to sai Plane, which he left in his other pants. Oh well.

That's what you get for "throwing" your Phylactery somewhere instead of actually making a plan for it.

You could also always just...you know, murder him while he's making his phylactery, or sabotage the process. One wrong check and he ends up merely killing himself through the process, at best becoming trapped in the phylactery unable to act on the world.

Of course, none of this negates the first point, this guy's a jerk and so is the DM for encouraging him. Find a better group, play online if you have to.

[kestral287]

First things first:
There's no way to pick out a specific target with Magic Jar unless there's a hit die difference or he knew exactly where you were prior to casting. Unless your party finds it normal for his body to suddenly collapse he's unlikely to be in direct view, which means that he's going to be possessing somebody random in the party. If that happens, go find his body and stab it; he's helpless.

Bravery certainly applies against spells with the Fear descriptor. It's a Fear spell, Bravery applies against Fear. Amusingly it doesn't work against Intimidate, because Intimidate has nothing to do with Will saves.

There's no RAW way to become a lich.

And Pathfinder pretty much assumes magic items are going to be a thing. Not having them will turn lethal unless he tones down the encounters to match, and is horribly screwing over the non-casters.

That said... personally I would talk to the GM directly about your concerns and tell him that you don't want to play in a game where PvP is a thing, and/or that you don't want to play with this player.

[pauljathome]

Details aside, a high level wizard who gets to pick the terms of engagement is almost certain to kill just about any character (including the same wizard). There is NO vaguely reliable way to protect against a high level wizard who wants you dead and picks the timing of the battle.

Either kill his character first (invent some "in character" reason), expect to die, leave the campaign, or convince the GM/other player that this isn't the game you want to play.

[Killer Triangle]

Thank you both for your fast responses, as much as I hoping to avoid killing him using metagame knowledge or even having pvp in the first place I have gained permission to kill his character before pvp is banned from the game. He told me he thought he was supposed to cause some trouble in the group as DM but I relayed that it wasn't really fair that he was trying to do this outside the campaign. He agreed and I will happily give him another shot as DM as he says he is going to be much more careful and I'm willing to take that risk for now.

But I think I may have another solution, but I'm not entirely sure how this situation would work. What would happen if I instead wait until he uses all his spells and then instead of killing him I destroy his spellbook? Would his daily spells refresh without him being able to switch or would he lose the ability to prepare spells in general?

Anyhow thank you for your fast responses, in all honesty I was afraid I wouldn't get a response before game day.

[Blackwaltzomega]

OK, initial thing: If you have a player like this at the table and the GM is ENCOURAGING HIM instead of telling him to back the hell off, seek another group as soon as possible. You seem to have landed in a rotten one.

Going forward...

Quote:

His second method involves an instant kill spell called Phantasmal Killer, I understand that I get 2 rolls one with fortitude and another with will. He claims that my bravery bonus only applies to intimidate and not fear based spells.

This method is blatantly cheating. Phantasmal Killer is a fear effect, all immunities and bonuses against it apply. "It only works against intimidate" is an asinine claim, as Intimidate doesn't have a will save, just a DC. This guy is trying to trick you into thinking Bravery doesn't do anything so he can use a spell you are better protected from at full power. Call him on that immediately if he ever tries it.

Your GM is begging for disaster if he lets one of his players attain lichdom on his first run as a GM but won't let anyone else have magic items. The game is balanced on the assumption your players have appropriately enhanced weapons, protective items, and armor based on your wealth by level. He is going to get you all killed if he ignores that, and it's blatant hypocrisy to make it possible for one player to enact the extremely expensive magic item-requiring ritual to become a Lich while not giving you so much as a Cloak of Resistance.

Inexperienced GMs should never, EVER allow PVP until they've picked up the chops to make sure it doesn't destroy the group, but this guy seems to be gunning for you for no reason and the fact the GM's encouraging him means he'll probably take it for granted that he's allowed to antagonize the other players and get away with it. Abandon ship if at all possible, this will not end well.

[TOZ]

You may want to contact the local authorities about your GMs player killing ways.

[Alick]

Critical fumble and kill him by accident. >_>

[Gwen Smith]

Why is the other player planning to kill your character? And why is the rest of group going to be OK with it?

Even if the GM is OK with pvp, the rest of the party should at least be concerned about the guy who killed one of their number with no apparent reason. I mean, even from a pure self-preservation standpoint, they should wonder which of them is next.

[Anguish]

Killer Triangle wrote:

I need help on how I should handle this situation

Kind of kidding, but...

Max out your ranks in Sense Motive the next opportunity you get, without telling the wizard's player. Then ask for frequent checks.

Odds are he hasn't bothered with Bluff.

The moment your character gets the idea the wizard is homicidal, one of several things can happen:

1} Your fighter can (try to) gank the wizard preemptively. I do not recommend this.
2} Your fighter can leave the party.
3} You can leave the game.

PVP is very simple. If his wizard kills your fighter, the wizard's player gets to do what he wants to do, and you do not get to do what you want to do. A game where one player's fun is at the cost of another player's fun is not a good game.

[Mikaze]

Blackwaltzomega wrote:

OK, initial thing: If you have a player like this at the table and the GM is ENCOURAGING HIM instead of telling him to back the hell off, seek another group as soon as possible. You seem to have landed in a rotten one.

Truth. This situation is dysfunctional at best. Bring up your concerns upfront and civilly, but if that doesn't help and this game is stressing you out, don't feel obligated to stick with it.

The game is supposed to be fun, not miserable.

[RedDogMT]

Don't play with these people. It is a game and is SUPPOSED to be fun.

Go find something else enjoyable to do.

[Pappy]

This sounds absolutely horrible. Did you insult this guy's mother or dog or some such for him to target you, or does he threaten other PCs too?

I think that you should find a new group ASAP. It is painful to read accounts like this. The hobby can be so much fun, and help create lasting friendships. Sad to hear of someone having such a bad experience.

[Kayerloth]

Yep drop the game and GM asap, bloody waste of time unless you enjoy such ... stuff.

[Killer Triangle]

His "story" reason is that he wants to build an undead army and as a player I'm one of the more powerful humans.

The actual reason is that I killed some bandits outside of town and kept the gold. Normally I split the gold, but since nobody else was there so I kept it. Personally I don't think I'm in the wrong nor does he normally share. So honestly in game he doesn't know as of yet but he made it clear his character won't like it.

I'm definitely willing to try another group if I can find a good one. it would be nice to find a solid local group.

[Omnitricks]

Hes just looking for a reason to kill you.

If your GM has a some downtime in the campaign, try changing your fighter into a paladin. Better saves, immunity against fear, magic weapons, etc. Problem solved. As a bonus, you even get to preemptively kill that evil wizard who wants to kill you, raise an undead army or become a lich.

Alternatively tell your nearest paladin order about your suspicions. They will solve the problem for you.

Or get in the rest of your party, barring the wizard to pull a Batman at the next hard encounter. "Just because I won't kill you doesn't mean I have to save you"

[Rynjin]

Killer Triangle wrote:

His "story" reason is that he wants to build an undead army and as a player I'm one of the more powerful humans.

That story reason is pretty dumb considering that since class based hit dice don't factor into most undead templates' power reanimating you will most likely net him a whopping...CR 1/2 zombie or skeleton.

But pray he uses Create Undead on you, since then you'll just be a souped up version of yourself like a JuJu Zombie and not under his control. That would be a hilarious way to get payback.

[Zourin]

This sounds terrible, both as a situation to be walking into as a new player, and as a kind of game being run by a newbie DM.

Run! These are not the friends you are looking for!

Strike 1: Newbie DM running a medium-to-high level game off the cuff
Strike 2: Player playing an Evil
Strike 3: Player threatens party members and wants to exert control over new players game decisions
Strike 4: DM is cool with this.
Strike 5: Rules lawyering against inexperienced players.
Strike 6: Ambiguous rules borrowing from two different rulesets.

I don't know how to make this red flag bigger. I really don't!

[Reckless]

Zourin wrote:

This sounds terrible, both as a situation to be walking into as a new player, and as a kind of game being run by a newbie DM.

Run! These are not the friends you are looking for!

Strike 1: Newbie DM running a medium-to-high level game off the cuff
Strike 2: Player playing an Evil
Strike 3: Player threatens party members and wants to exert control over new players game decisions
Strike 4: DM is cool with this.
Strike 5: Rules lawyering against inexperienced players.
Strike 6: Ambiguous rules borrowing from two different rulesets.

I don't know how to make this red flag bigger. I really don't!

Strike 7: Evil Player starts dressing as his character. He insists on referring to you by your character's name.

Strike 8: The GM starts handing out experience and gold to the (other) PCs for ooc actions

This could be a forum game.

[Lessah]

Now, most people have given you the best advice (deal with it OOC or find another group). I'll just echo that as well as give you a cheap and efficient way of getting rid of him.

Simply offer him some tea as a peace offering, then coup de grace his unconscious ass.

Note that the listed DC is merely to avoid addiction - not to resist the effects. This is spelled out quite clearly in the drugs subsection. Cheesy as heck - but at the very least you will be following the actual rules of the game, unlike his plans : )

Edit: Should he be unwilling to take a drink, lace his food with it or look up the Syringe Spear

[hgsolo]

Lessah wrote:

Now, most people have given you the best advice (deal with it OOC or find another group). I'll just echo that as well as give you a cheap and efficient way of getting rid of him.

Simply offer him some tea as a peace offering, then coup de grace his unconscious ass.

Note that the listed DC is merely to avoid addiction - not to resist the effects. This is spelled out quite clearly in the drugs subsection. Cheesy as heck - but at the very least you will be following the actual rules of the game, unlike his plans : )

Edit: Should he be unwilling to take a drink, lace his food with it or look up the Syringe Spear

He's a wizard, meaning he has to sleep to regain spells anyway. Just offer to take watch and CDG him in his sleep, without doing anything to tip him off before hand. Remember that a sleeping creature takes a -10 penalty to perception checks, so it should be easy enough to sneak up on him by taking 10. If he complains about you having no in character reason to do so just take the alignment hit to chaotic evil and multiclass into antipaladin so his new character can try to mess with your now amped up saves.

Or, you know, handle it maturely or whatever.

[Azerkatil]

Have your fighter kill his wizard whilst he sleeps. Coup De Grace.

Why. "I Couldnt trust him. He has a bad habit of eying me. I'd do it again if I notice that any of you eyeball me back."

[tsuruki]

The gyu is delusional.
Under pathfinder rules:

1) The sword thing with magic jar is a waste of magic jar, that stunt would do roughly 1d8 (if its a longsword) + an X number of damage depending on your weight, if any damage at all, its certainly not enough to insta-kill yourself. The gm might rule it as a critical hit, but any more hten that would be silly, falling on a sword is not as deadly as just cutting yourself with it.

2) You DO get the bravery bonus because the spell has "Fear" in its type, in fact you get the bonus both on the Will and the Fort save, and your fort save is certainly high enough to negate the spell.

3) Becoming a lich involves so much work that it requires the campaign to completely revolve around him and his quest, and if the campaign IS about HIS character then get out of there, those people are not fun company.

4) Him throwing away his phylactery is just absurd, a passerby extraplanar would notice a phylactery just floating around and an Inevitable would notice a plane being formed just to store a tiny objekt, If your GM has a creative and fun brain that is.

Finally, ask him to please give you an -in game- reason why, make him role play it. Because honestly he might just as well be full of bullcrap and wont have the balls to actually do it.
If actually he does tell you hes going to kill you ingame, make sure he does it point blank, preferably in a tight space like a small room or dungeon corridor, have your character grapple and choke him to death, he provoked it so its his fault. If he refuses to give an in game reason then you dont need one yourself, choke him to death for being a dick and then walk away from the table if anyone disagrees with your action.

[tsuruki]

Dont forget that the lich reforms where his phylactery is, so if you have to kill him in lich form, he will reform, with no spellbook, in another dimension with nothign around but empty space. A wizard cant prepare spells without a spellbook or paper, nor without ink. Liches dont have any blood to use as ink either. That means he wont have a spell to get back home. Ever.

#Fateworsethendeath

[Rynjin]

Well, a smart Lich would have backup spellbook with at LEAST Plane Shift prepared, plus a spell component pouch and some other stuff stashed away there, but this guy seems dumb as a bag of hammers and doesn't understand how half the things in the game work apparently. I'd be interested in sticking around to see how he f#!*s up his grand master plan myself.

[kestral287]

tsuruki wrote:

2) You DO get the bravery bonus because the spell has "Fear" in its type, in fact you get the bonus both on the Will and the Fort save, and your fort save is certainly high enough to negate the spell.

Bravery actually specifies that its bonus applies to Will saves against Fear, so he only gets it on the Will save against Phantasmal Killer, not the Fort. Yes, Bravery sucks that much.

[bookrat]

Since this game is a cross over of 3.5 and pathfinder, how many of the rules that this guy is quoting actually legal if you use both systems interchangeably to his advantage?

[kestral287]

Bravery didn't exist in 3.5, so not that. Magic Jar didn't change significantly, so not that.

It is, apparently, possible to legally become a lich in 3.5 via their template-class-thingies. He's not doing it until caster level 11th though.

[Duiker]

OP: "I'm playing with a bunch of jerks, what should I do?"

Well since this is the rules forum, and this question is asked repeatedly, despite the community consensus that RAI is "talk to each other like adults" then I'm just going to hit the FAQ button to see if we can get an official developer response to clarify this.

[Arturus Caeldhon]

Sounds like the absolutely worst DM in history. This other player is a complete f!$*ing a$$~!*$. If I were in your place I would tell him to his face to get f$!#ed.

The short answer is get a new group, because you shouldn't have to be dealing with this crap.

The long answer is Bravery does count against Fear effects. This other player sounds like he either doesn't understand the rules or is purposefully lying about them to mess with you. Magic Jar is kind of an instant win, but Phantasmal Killer requires two saves. You have a sword. Kill him in his sleep with it. Since your group is like the Wild West, declare that anyone else who threatens player killing will be murdered in their sleep. This should cause sufficient chaos so that your DM realizes he's an idiot and change his stance on player killing. That or it'll turn the game into an all-out arena. Either way, your current problem is "solved".

P.S. Show your DM this part. DM'ing is about facilitating a shared story experience, in which each player(the DM included) is having an equal amount of fun. It is not your job to cause problems amongst your players. That is so wrong it hurts.

If one player is hurting the fun of any other player, it is the DMs job to take care of it. If either player is being unreasonable, they need to be talked to, or removed from the group. If you can't do that, get on the other side of the screen.