Zaphod42's page

I found a very old thread on this, but I'm looking for a current opinion/ruling based on current knowledge in case there are any errata or whatnot since the old thread that affect this.

Double-barrel pistol, firing both barrels at once is considered a single "standard action (the attack action)". But the to-hit is rolled separately for "each shot" (or each bullet).

If I fire both barrels at once and roll a misfire on both "shots", is it considered 2 misfires and the gun is destroyed in a single attack, or is it only considered a single misfire and then has the broken condition going forward as if it had misfired when firing only a single barrel?

I found this old thread about Weapon Focus and what selecting a weapon "type" means.
https://www.paizo.com/threads/rzs2l17f?Weapon-Focus-and-Weapon-type

Gun Training for Gunslingers has essentially the same wording as Weapon Focus, referencing choosing a weapon "type".

Now, I'll agree that "type" does not mean damage type as suggested in the above thread.

But does "type" mean a single specific gun, or a family of guns? I.e., do I need to pick literally A specific gun and it applies to only that 1 gun, or does it apply to, for example, "pistols" in general if I have both a single and double-barrel pistol in my inventory, but would obviously not apply to muskets or other 2 handed guns (if I indeed chose pistols)?

Or possibly it applies to all single-barrel pistols but not double-barrel, or vice versa?

If it applies to a gun family like "pistols", would that then also include technological pistols vs. normal "early" firearms? We're playing the Iron Gods adventure path so we are running into technological weapons.

This question is NOT about whether any of these stack. I've read enough to know that they do not.

This question is to compare and contrast these 3 to make sure I have a full understanding of them, and not misinterpreting anything.

I've searched and read many threads on this. I've also tried searching for threads that directly compare these, but haven't found any. Many people compare Dead Shot with Vital Strike. But I disagree, I think Dead Shot is more of a variation on the Clustered Shots feat, and noting at all like Vital Strike.

So if I understand correctly...

Vital Strike adds ADDITIONAL damage dice (or x2 or x3 damage dice with Improved/Greater) for a single attack action (being a standard action). I.e., it does extra damage that the player wouldn't otherwise have.

Dead Shot and Clustered Shots do NOT do any ADDITIONAL damage beyond what the player would have in a normal full attack. At a basic level, they both pool damage from what is essentially multiple attacks during a full attack action. The idea with both is to create a single larger damage potential to overcome DR vs. smaller damage separate shots each having to overcome DR individually, but neither Dead Shot nor Clustered Shots do any additional damage beyond what would happen in a normal full attack action if there were no DR.

My guess of why people think Dead Shot is like Vital Strike, I think it comes from this clause in the Dead Shot description:

"For each additional successful attack roll beyond the first, the gunslinger increases the damage of the shot by the base damage dice of the firearm. For instance, if a 7th level gunslinger firing a musket hits with both attacks, she does 2d12 points of damage with the shot, instead of 1d12 points of damage, before adding any damage modifiers."

This is similar to the mention of damage dice in Vital Strike. But I think people are misinterpreting this Dead Shot description, and I think the example provided for Dead Shot is a poor example. By "increases the damage of the shot by the base damage dice", it doesn't mean you actually get extra damage dice that you wouldn't normally have. It just means you get the normal damage dice from THAT attack roll, the same as you would normally get anyway during a full attack action with multiple attacks. Just as if the attack roll is not successful, you don't get the damage dice for that attack roll. And a better example would be something like, if a 17th level gunslinger firing a musket hits with 3 attacks and misses with 1 attack, she does 3d12 points of damage, instead of 1d12 points of damage, before adding any damage modifiers." If the interpretation were similar to Vital Strike, the result of that example would be 5d12 (1d12 for each hit + an extra 1d12 for each successive successful attack).

Based on the above, that's why I say that Dead Shot is a variation on Clustered Shots (they both pool normal damage, not do additional damage), and not like Vital Strike at all. (Unless I'm the one interpreting that clause of Dead Shot incorrectly.)

The differences between Dead Shot and Clustered Shots are...

Clustered Shots pools a truly full attack action. Extra attacks from Rapid Shot & Haste would also apply. It also pools all BONUS damage from EACH successful hit. Each individual attack can crit on it's own.

Dead Shot is technically a single shot, thus using only a single ammunition, but still requires a full round action and still rolls separate attack rolls "as if she were making a full attack", just like Clustered Shots. Dead Shot only allows the base attacks "based on her base attack bonus," it does not allow extra attacks from Rapid Shot/Haste. It pools damage only from the base damage dice. Bonus damage is only added once after adding all of the base damage dice together. There is only 1 crit confirmation, either it all crits or none of it crits.

It also seems to me then that if one took Clustered Shots, the Dead Shot deed would be useless, except maybe to save ammunition. And Clustered Shots should do more damage overall since it also pools bonus damage, and allows extra shots (Rapid Shot/Haste).

So am I correct in my interpretations of the above? If not, what am I wrong about? (Does Dead Shot actually add an ADDITIONAL damage die for each successful attack?)

Thank you!

I've done a bunch of searching and reading on this already and think I know the answer, but I want confirmation in case there's something I'm missing.

This is all assuming one has reloads as a free action (rapid reload + alchemical cartridges).

The majority of what I read seems to indicate that you can NOT fire both barrels simultaneously (for the -4 to each shot) in successive attacks in a full attack action, like when you get multiple attacks from BAB at level 6 and above, or extra attacks from Rapid Shot or Haste. Some threads seemed to indicated that it was ok, but the majority said no, or at least that it's a GM decision.

So if that's the case, and if reloads are free, you're better off shooting only 1 barrel at a time and with free reloads that's no different/better than a single barrel pistol.

And shooting each barrel separately does NOT give any extra attacks during either a normal standard attack action or a full attack, correct? I believe firing a single barrel is considered a normal standard attack action, correct?

The double-barrel might be okay before one has free reloads, just for a bit of extra flexibility of occasionally not having to reload between shots if you're in a tight spot. But once you have free reloads there seems to be no advantage to a double-barrel when making a full attack.

The double-barrel might still be good if, for example you need to move and fire so cannot take a full attack, but could still fire both barrels as a standard action.

But outside of the occasional use, I see no advantage to a double-barrel over single barrel if one cannot fire both barrels with each attack in a full attack action.

Am I correct in that thinking, or am I missing something? Has something come out at some point that definitively indicates that we CAN shoot both barrels with each attack of a full attack action?

Thanks much!