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Wow, thanks everyone! Little did I know this would be just as lively of a debate now as it was in the 6 year old thread I originally read.

To add a bit of clarification to the situation... My character is a gunslinger so has gunsmithing. As someone pointed out the 2B pistol has a misfire of 1-2. I'm also using paper alchemical chartridges which increases the misfire to 3. Then, IF you're in the camp that both "shots" do apply and cause the gun to explode, then the misfire on the 2nd roll would be 5 (a "broken" gun increases misfire by 4, or 2 with gun training). I happened to roll a 1 and a 3.

We've been playing this campaign for a little over 2 years and I've never rolled a misfire on both when firing both barrels at once before. So this is the first time that it happened, and we didn't know for sure how to treat it.

As the player, I'm in the camp as someone described...

Under a full iterative attack, when it misfires once, the player then has a choice whether to take the risk to continue firing with the gun in broken condition, and if it misfires again and explodes, well, then the player chose to take that risk. I can accept that.

When firing both barrels at once (I moved, so I can't make an iterative attack, so firing both barrels at once is the next best thing), we take the combination of "at once", and "standard action" to imply that the player must delcare firing both barrels up front and then MUST roll BOTH "shots" (i.e., both attack rolls). I.e., if the first "shot" misfires, they don't have a choice on the 2nd roll, they must technically still roll it.

I'm certainly willing to accept that if either shot misfires (even if the other one does not), that both shots "miss". But because of the lack of choice in making the second roll (technically MUST make the 2nd roll), it would be more fair to the player to say that the 2nd shot does not make the gun explode. Of course, in actual game play, you'd just say that if the first shot misfires then don't bother to roll the 2nd roll. But we're using Roll20 and the macro automatically rolls both dice at the same time.

I guess if the rules explicitly stated that the gun explodes if firing both barrels at once and both roll misfire, then I'd accept that too, but then the player knows that rule going in and can again make an informed choice of whether to take that risk. Since the rules don't explicitly state it, and unless the GM mentions it ahead of time, the player (me) doesn't think about that possibility when making that decision.

I.e., it's one thing if a rule explicitly exists and the player either forgets or fails to take that into account in their decision making. It's another if the player can't make an informed decision because the rules are fuzzy.

I found a very old thread on this, but I'm looking for a current opinion/ruling based on current knowledge in case there are any errata or whatnot since the old thread that affect this.

Double-barrel pistol, firing both barrels at once is considered a single "standard action (the attack action)". But the to-hit is rolled separately for "each shot" (or each bullet).

If I fire both barrels at once and roll a misfire on both "shots", is it considered 2 misfires and the gun is destroyed in a single attack, or is it only considered a single misfire and then has the broken condition going forward as if it had misfired when firing only a single barrel?

I found this old thread about Weapon Focus and what selecting a weapon "type" means.
https://www.paizo.com/threads/rzs2l17f?Weapon-Focus-and-Weapon-type

Gun Training for Gunslingers has essentially the same wording as Weapon Focus, referencing choosing a weapon "type".

Now, I'll agree that "type" does not mean damage type as suggested in the above thread.

But does "type" mean a single specific gun, or a family of guns? I.e., do I need to pick literally A specific gun and it applies to only that 1 gun, or does it apply to, for example, "pistols" in general if I have both a single and double-barrel pistol in my inventory, but would obviously not apply to muskets or other 2 handed guns (if I indeed chose pistols)?

Or possibly it applies to all single-barrel pistols but not double-barrel, or vice versa?

If it applies to a gun family like "pistols", would that then also include technological pistols vs. normal "early" firearms? We're playing the Iron Gods adventure path so we are running into technological weapons.

The whole gun gains the broken condition, not just 1 barrel. So you still take the negatives to hit and if you misfire again it breaks

Well, that's how *I* was playing it. It was my GM who, one time I said "misfire", then said "don't you have another barrel? You can keep firing with that."

But I do think you're right. I'll have to mention it to him.

Honestly, I also forgot I could still attack with a "broken" gun, just at a penalty and increased further misfire value. I do remember doing that early on, but I had forgotten recently and if I misfired I just ended my attack (again, until the GM mentioned the other barrel).

I know this thread is a few months old, but we (myself and my GM, my GM is the one who actually pointed it out to me) found another advantage of the DB pistol over the single barrel. That is, to help with misfire situations.

The DB is 2 separate barrels. Earlier posts established that during a full attack, you're only ever firing a single barrel and just keep reloading the same barrel (with free reloads). Thus, if you misfire in the middle of a "full attack", you can still keep attacking with the other barrel.

For example, I'm level 9 right now, so I have 3 attacks in a "full attack". 1st attack hits, 2nd attack misfires, I can still make the 3rd attack with the other barrel.

With a single-barrel pistol, the attack would have ended as soon as the misfire happened.

It also means I don't NEED to quickclear the misfire immediately if we're in a tight battle. I can keep fighting until either we finish the battle, or until the other barrel also misfires, at which point I can either quickclear only 1 barrel if I'm tight on time, or spend 1 full round clearing both barrels (with using 1 grit to clear 1 barrel as a move action but still being able to clear the other barrel as a standard action).

Quote:

If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot each shot=2 shots= not a single attack

I guess interpret what you will, but the vast majority don't see it that way. The explicit statement that it's "the attack action" overrides that little statement about "each shot". "Shot" is not the same as "attack".

Even comparing to real world, it makes sense that it's a single attack. The gun has 2 triggers, a separate trigger for each barrel. To fire both barrels at the same time, the wielder pulls both triggers at exactly the same time. This is a single "attack."

But there are still 2 separate bullets. It's entirely possible that one bullet could hit and the other could miss. Thus each bullet, or "shot" is rolled separately.

The -4 is because the kickback from firing both barrels at the same time is that much more, thus throwing off the aim.

I guess in the end, it's a GM decision.

vital strike also calls out a single attack, when you fire both barrels of a weapon they are two separate attacks as a standard action and each take a -4 to hit, so you are not making an attack you are making two attacks thus not usable with vital strike

I tend to agree with the others. I'm not sure where you're getting the "two separate attacks" when firing both barrels at the same time. Nothing in the DB pistol description says that it is two separate attacks when firing both barrels at the same time. In fact, the description explicitly says that it is "the attack action", which I think would by definition mean that it's a single attack.

DB Pistol description:

This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as separate attacks, or both can be fired at once as a standard action (the attack action).

If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.

As the description states, it is only separate attacks if each barrel is fired separately. Per the phrase that I bold-faced, to me, this wording clearly indicates that firing both barrels at the same time is a SINGLE attack using "the attack action", not two separate attacks. It may be logical in the real world to think that it's two separate attacks, but real world has no implications on the game rules. By my reading, the rules explicitly state that firing both barrels at the same time is a single attack using "the attack action."

Vital Strike description:

When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

As has been pointed out in so many other threads about Vital Strike, "the attack action" is a specific action defined by the rules to which Vital Strike applies. This same action is called out in parentheses in the DB pistol description in regard to firing both barrels at the same time.

The phrase "the attack action" can't reference a single attack for one item and multiple attacks for another item. "The attack action" is a clearly defined action by the rules and has the same meaning no matter where it's used. Since both descriptions clearly mention "the attack action", I'd say that Vital Strike can be used when shooting both barrels at the same time.

So, I just read this again. Could one potentially use the double-barrel pistol, and fire each barrel separately, at different times during the same round, using the Leaping Shot Grit feat?

You gain a +2 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump. As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make firearm attacks at your highest base attack bonus with each loaded firearm you are wielding. You can make these attacks at any point during your movement, and if you are wielding two firearms, you can make the attacks at different points during the movement. At the end of this movement, you fall prone. This deed costs 1 grit point to perform.

Could the two barrels be treated as if having two separate weapons based on the phrases I bold-faced?

This feat does require Dodge and Mobility as pre-req's, so it may not be a great choice. That's not the question. The question is purely IF one wants to go this route, would it work that way with a DB pistol. (There are several other feats that require both Dodge and Mobility too, so if one wants to go that route in general, then Leaping Shot may not be a stretech to add on.)

Thanks Diachronos!

Any further thoughts from anyone on this? Even if I'm correct, I'd like further confirmation, and also maybe people will see this thread and STOP saying that Dead Shot is like Vital Strike. I just read it again in somebody's Gunslinger Guide.

I was just so baffled at how many people said that Dead Shot was like Vital Strike, and I keep thinking, "no it's not, it's a stripped down Clustered Shots."

I even saw a post in ONE thread where somebody did compare Dead Shot to Clustered Shots, and somebody else replied "no, it's more like Vital Strike," but gave no reasoning. And I'm thinking to myself "NO, it's NOT like Vital Strike, the first guy was right." But that thread was several years old so it wasn't worth replying to now. :)

blaphers, sorry, I don't know the answer to your question. It's kind of out of scope for my original question. Maybe try posting it as a separate question if you don't get any other answers here.

Thanks again!

A double-barrel pistol is still better any time you need to move. You can still do both barrels as a standard action, so move and fire both.

If you're full-attacking, they're no better nor worse than regular pistols.

Thanks for all of the additional information everyone! This quoted post pretty much sums my thinking.

One other potential use I thought of, though VERY situational, was to hold 2 different kinds of ammunition going into a situation where you're not sure which you'll need. For example, regular ammo and a blanched or enchanted ammo. It saves either wasting a first shot using the wrong ammo, or having to unload and reload (even if UNloading is a free action, would UNloading without actually firing be considered a free action? I'm thinking not). But I also wouldn't get a double-barrel just to use for this purpose.

Thanks much all!

No, I wasn't confusing TWF for double-barrel. I had read all of that on TWF too, but most of the threads were very early posts back when gunslinger first came out, and I had seen more recent threads about the TWF being clarified and made harder. There still seem to be ways to make it happen (spells/enchantments/items), but based on everything I'd read, I've concluded that even if TWF with pistols might be technically possible, it's not in the intended spirit. Instead, work on getting more attacks (Rapid Shot/Haste) and/or damage bonuses.

And yeah, I thought I read somewhere too about firing both barrels during a full attack action being nerfed, I couldn't remember for sure.

The only other way I'd see the double-barrel as benefiting is if it actaully gave an extra attack during a full-attack action. But I'm pretty sure that's not true either is it?

So that leads me back to my original realization that, with the possible occasional exception in certain situations, there's really no advantage of a double-barrel over single-barrel with reloads as a free action?

Thanks again!

This question is NOT about whether any of these stack. I've read enough to know that they do not.

This question is to compare and contrast these 3 to make sure I have a full understanding of them, and not misinterpreting anything.

I've searched and read many threads on this. I've also tried searching for threads that directly compare these, but haven't found any. Many people compare Dead Shot with Vital Strike. But I disagree, I think Dead Shot is more of a variation on the Clustered Shots feat, and noting at all like Vital Strike.

So if I understand correctly...

Vital Strike adds ADDITIONAL damage dice (or x2 or x3 damage dice with Improved/Greater) for a single attack action (being a standard action). I.e., it does extra damage that the player wouldn't otherwise have.

Dead Shot and Clustered Shots do NOT do any ADDITIONAL damage beyond what the player would have in a normal full attack. At a basic level, they both pool damage from what is essentially multiple attacks during a full attack action. The idea with both is to create a single larger damage potential to overcome DR vs. smaller damage separate shots each having to overcome DR individually, but neither Dead Shot nor Clustered Shots do any additional damage beyond what would happen in a normal full attack action if there were no DR.

My guess of why people think Dead Shot is like Vital Strike, I think it comes from this clause in the Dead Shot description:

"For each additional successful attack roll beyond the first, the gunslinger increases the damage of the shot by the base damage dice of the firearm. For instance, if a 7th level gunslinger firing a musket hits with both attacks, she does 2d12 points of damage with the shot, instead of 1d12 points of damage, before adding any damage modifiers."

This is similar to the mention of damage dice in Vital Strike. But I think people are misinterpreting this Dead Shot description, and I think the example provided for Dead Shot is a poor example. By "increases the damage of the shot by the base damage dice", it doesn't mean you actually get extra damage dice that you wouldn't normally have. It just means you get the normal damage dice from THAT attack roll, the same as you would normally get anyway during a full attack action with multiple attacks. Just as if the attack roll is not successful, you don't get the damage dice for that attack roll. And a better example would be something like, if a 17th level gunslinger firing a musket hits with 3 attacks and misses with 1 attack, she does 3d12 points of damage, instead of 1d12 points of damage, before adding any damage modifiers." If the interpretation were similar to Vital Strike, the result of that example would be 5d12 (1d12 for each hit + an extra 1d12 for each successive successful attack).

Based on the above, that's why I say that Dead Shot is a variation on Clustered Shots (they both pool normal damage, not do additional damage), and not like Vital Strike at all. (Unless I'm the one interpreting that clause of Dead Shot incorrectly.)

The differences between Dead Shot and Clustered Shots are...

Clustered Shots pools a truly full attack action. Extra attacks from Rapid Shot & Haste would also apply. It also pools all BONUS damage from EACH successful hit. Each individual attack can crit on it's own.

Dead Shot is technically a single shot, thus using only a single ammunition, but still requires a full round action and still rolls separate attack rolls "as if she were making a full attack", just like Clustered Shots. Dead Shot only allows the base attacks "based on her base attack bonus," it does not allow extra attacks from Rapid Shot/Haste. It pools damage only from the base damage dice. Bonus damage is only added once after adding all of the base damage dice together. There is only 1 crit confirmation, either it all crits or none of it crits.

It also seems to me then that if one took Clustered Shots, the Dead Shot deed would be useless, except maybe to save ammunition. And Clustered Shots should do more damage overall since it also pools bonus damage, and allows extra shots (Rapid Shot/Haste).

So am I correct in my interpretations of the above? If not, what am I wrong about? (Does Dead Shot actually add an ADDITIONAL damage die for each successful attack?)

Thank you!

I've done a bunch of searching and reading on this already and think I know the answer, but I want confirmation in case there's something I'm missing.

This is all assuming one has reloads as a free action (rapid reload + alchemical cartridges).

The majority of what I read seems to indicate that you can NOT fire both barrels simultaneously (for the -4 to each shot) in successive attacks in a full attack action, like when you get multiple attacks from BAB at level 6 and above, or extra attacks from Rapid Shot or Haste. Some threads seemed to indicated that it was ok, but the majority said no, or at least that it's a GM decision.

So if that's the case, and if reloads are free, you're better off shooting only 1 barrel at a time and with free reloads that's no different/better than a single barrel pistol.

And shooting each barrel separately does NOT give any extra attacks during either a normal standard attack action or a full attack, correct? I believe firing a single barrel is considered a normal standard attack action, correct?

The double-barrel might be okay before one has free reloads, just for a bit of extra flexibility of occasionally not having to reload between shots if you're in a tight spot. But once you have free reloads there seems to be no advantage to a double-barrel when making a full attack.

The double-barrel might still be good if, for example you need to move and fire so cannot take a full attack, but could still fire both barrels as a standard action.

But outside of the occasional use, I see no advantage to a double-barrel over single barrel if one cannot fire both barrels with each attack in a full attack action.

Am I correct in that thinking, or am I missing something? Has something come out at some point that definitively indicates that we CAN shoot both barrels with each attack of a full attack action?

Thanks much!