Copper Dragon

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James Jacobs wrote:
Roshan wrote:
When you summon a creature using summon monster or summon natures ally, how does it work? Does it conjure a likeness of that creature to fight for you or does it bring a real creature from somewhere?

It summons a "copy" of an idealized incarnation of the creature. A summoned creature doesn't exist before you cast the spell, nor does it exist once the spell expires.

That's the difference between summoning spells and calling spells. Calling spells DO conjure a real creature.


Does a Summoner's Eidolon exist with the same context, or does the Eidolon have an existence somewhere else independent of the PC?

I'm new to pathfinder and DnD in general, and I'm trying to play a Sylph Oracle with the Time mystery in my group's new campaign we started yesterday (25 point buy, max rolls for HD), with a focus on making him extremely evasive/nimble (darting in and out of melee, using things like blur, wind stance, dodge, etc, eventually stopping time to avoid being hit) and being disruptive with his touch attack spells and abilities. He is 2nd level, has 18 DEX, and Weapon Finesse at the moment.

I expected this to be a mediocre build (oracles aren't rogues!), but right now it's practically unplayable with a few of the problems I'm running into.

1) While my 1st level AC was pretty decently high (A nonlethal duel with our party's monk resulted him hitting me only two out of about nine or ten times, and his attack bonus was nothing to laugh at) I've come to the realization that past this point I have no idea what I can do to get it higher. There's no improved dodge or anything of the sort, and I can't exactly upgrade to heavy armor - I'd like to be hard to hit, but not by turning myself into an M1 Abrahms.

2) Oracle attack bonus is terrible and I have no idea how to boost my chance to hit something with these touch attacks beyond taking weapon finesse (which I have). With my mystery's spells, if I miss with them, it still uses my daily alloted charge for it, and I want to focus on just landing attacks and minimizing fail chance - I don't care about damage, just connecting the abilities.

I don't want to play straight debuff/buff/heal oracle, but I'm still trying to lend aid and disrupt combat via more tricky means - for example, in one of our first battles, our mutagen-focused Alchemist was about to be killed, so I used Erase from Time on him, taking away his ability to heal or contribute but making him completely invincible for a round while we dealt with the monster.

Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated. If this turns out to be impossible to make playable whatsoever, I might give up and just try to subclass or something (if it's any indication, Shadow Dancer has a bit of the flavor that I'm aiming for.)

We've reached an agreement. You've been really helpful in both topics. He was thinking I was trying to bend the rules of the game, which I'm not, which was the cause for a large discussion on the topic. Thank you for your help, again in both topics.

wraithstrike wrote:
3. He is wrong.

Can you explain why? Is there something in the books that says so?

wraithstrike wrote:
You two are really debating fluff not rules

You are absolutely right. This entire topic is intentionally ambiguous and he as the DM makes the call on how it's played out.

Thank you!

I made a thread on here earlier asking about an Eidolon and the "true outsider" behind it.

My DM is stating that there is no outsider behind the Eidolon a summoner has, instead, the Eidolon is the actual body and conciousness of the Outsider itself.

My understanding of Eidolons:

The Summoner bonds with an Outsider, able to summon an Eidolon to his side, which is an aspect/avatar of this creature. As the summoner levels up, he is able to draw more power from this outsider, shaping it's projection and using the borrowed power for the Eidolon or himself if he wanted.

His understanding of Eidolons:

The Summoner bonds with an outsider, and is able to summon the outsider itself to his side. The summoner is so proficient at his art that he is able to shape the outsider's form into what is referred as his Eidolon, becoming so powerful that he is even able to draw evolutions onto himself.

His reasoning includes:

1) You can't summon "aspects". You summon monsters, creatures and outsiders. The aspect is referring to your ability of manipulation.

2) If it were only an aspect, why do you have to wait 24 hours to summon it after it dies, and why does it have a con score?

3) They are dismissed when they reach 0 HP, and come back in 24 hours. That is a full day rest, and is the reason for the cooldown. Their physical form is injured, it needs to heal.

Which one of us is right?

(For the record, I know you guys hate player/DM fighting. If he rules it his way, I'll play the campaign that way. But I think there is a misunderstanding on ONE of the sides here.)

wraithstrike wrote:
2. see #1

Are there no set rules on an "aspect" of an outsider? Is their memory/vision/entire conciousness not one and the same?

If I teach my Eidolon how to write a scroll, can it retain that information in it's true form after being dismissed?

To start, I am new to Pathfinder. My first character is the summoner that I am playing and trying to figure this out for - I'll recount what I've figured out so far in researching this;

From what I can gather, an Eidolon is a projection (an "aspect") of a stronger than normal outsider (read: not your average, mediocre animal summon) that the Summoner has bonded with. When an Eidolon is dismissed, it does not carry back any items or equipment in it's possession whatsoever.

My questions are as follows:

1) Just what in the seven hells is the Eidolon an aspect of, anyway? Any potential outsider on any potential plane?

2) Is consciousness shared between the Eidolon and the outsider it is projecting? If I find this outsider and wave at it, will it know who the hell I am?

3) Is anything I give the Eidolon (ability increases, skills) actually taken back to entity I am projecting? If I give it more intellect, does it keep it, or is that specific to the Eidolon itself? How the heck does that even work?

4) Does anything on the Eidolon get transferred back when it's dismissed? Injuries? Tattoos?

My end goal is to meet the outsider I am projecting as my Eidolon. To accomplish this easily, at 13th level I am taking Create Demiplane, and having both parties meet on that demiplane, which seems to be much easier and safer than plane shifting to the Eidolon's home plane and wandering around clueless in the 500 mile "close enough" radius that Plane Shift can land us in, provided my party can even learn where the Eidolon is centered in that plane in the first place.

My first idea was to scribe Plane Shift to my demiplane on the Eidolon's arms, and have it try to make a UMD check to cast after I dismiss it, but it seems the physical form it takes on the material plane is just an image, so the being would not receive the writing.