Advice for building a touch-attack oriented evasive Oracle?

[Zaleen]

I'm new to pathfinder and DnD in general, and I'm trying to play a Sylph Oracle with the Time mystery in my group's new campaign we started yesterday (25 point buy, max rolls for HD), with a focus on making him extremely evasive/nimble (darting in and out of melee, using things like blur, wind stance, dodge, etc, eventually stopping time to avoid being hit) and being disruptive with his touch attack spells and abilities. He is 2nd level, has 18 DEX, and Weapon Finesse at the moment.

I expected this to be a mediocre build (oracles aren't rogues!), but right now it's practically unplayable with a few of the problems I'm running into.

1) While my 1st level AC was pretty decently high (A nonlethal duel with our party's monk resulted him hitting me only two out of about nine or ten times, and his attack bonus was nothing to laugh at) I've come to the realization that past this point I have no idea what I can do to get it higher. There's no improved dodge or anything of the sort, and I can't exactly upgrade to heavy armor - I'd like to be hard to hit, but not by turning myself into an M1 Abrahms.

2) Oracle attack bonus is terrible and I have no idea how to boost my chance to hit something with these touch attacks beyond taking weapon finesse (which I have). With my mystery's spells, if I miss with them, it still uses my daily alloted charge for it, and I want to focus on just landing attacks and minimizing fail chance - I don't care about damage, just connecting the abilities.

I don't want to play straight debuff/buff/heal oracle, but I'm still trying to lend aid and disrupt combat via more tricky means - for example, in one of our first battles, our mutagen-focused Alchemist was about to be killed, so I used Erase from Time on him, taking away his ability to heal or contribute but making him completely invincible for a round while we dealt with the monster.

Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated. If this turns out to be impossible to make playable whatsoever, I might give up and just try to subclass or something (if it's any indication, Shadow Dancer has a bit of the flavor that I'm aiming for.)

[joriandrake]

Lore oracle has the ability to add its Cha modifier to AC, a Ring of Revelation or Strange Revelation feat can get you access to it

to hit others consider True Strike

if you are a pure Oracle, look through options for an archetype if you are allowed to change now, or take a few levels in a godling class to get some of their spellcasting aiding powers

[cartmanbeck]

Zaleen wrote:

I'm new to pathfinder and DnD in general, and I'm trying to play a Sylph Oracle with the Time mystery in my group's new campaign we started yesterday (25 point buy, max rolls for HD), with a focus on making him extremely evasive/nimble (darting in and out of melee, using things like blur, wind stance, dodge, etc, eventually stopping time to avoid being hit) and being disruptive with his touch attack spells and abilities. He is 2nd level, has 18 DEX, and Weapon Finesse at the moment.

I expected this to be a mediocre build (oracles aren't rogues!), but right now it's practically unplayable with a few of the problems I'm running into.

1) While my 1st level AC was pretty decently high (A nonlethal duel with our party's monk resulted him hitting me only two out of about nine or ten times, and his attack bonus was nothing to laugh at) I've come to the realization that past this point I have no idea what I can do to get it higher. There's no improved dodge or anything of the sort, and I can't exactly upgrade to heavy armor - I'd like to be hard to hit, but not by turning myself into an M1 Abrahms.

2) Oracle attack bonus is terrible and I have no idea how to boost my chance to hit something with these touch attacks beyond taking weapon finesse (which I have). With my mystery's spells, if I miss with them, it still uses my daily alloted charge for it, and I want to focus on just landing attacks and minimizing fail chance - I don't care about damage, just connecting the abilities.

I don't want to play straight debuff/buff/heal oracle, but I'm still trying to lend aid and disrupt combat via more tricky means - for example, in one of our first battles, our mutagen-focused Alchemist was about to be killed, so I used Erase from Time on him, taking away his ability to heal or contribute but making him completely invincible for a round while we dealt with the monster.

Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated. If this turns out to be impossible to make playable whatsoever, I might give up and just try...

For #1: Do you have any ranks in Use Magic Device? If so, pick up a wand of Mage Armor and cast that on yourself before any major battles (or any other time you think you'll be in danger). It'll last 1 hour per charge, and cost 750gp for 50 charges. If you don't have the ranks, have your arcane caster do it for you.

Another option: Are you wearing any armor at all? You could always wear something like cloth armor to at least give yourself a small armor bonus. Mage Armor will be better for you, though.

There's also no reason for you to not carry a shield. Get yourself a light (or even a heavy) steel shield and you'll have a shield bonus to AC and can still cast your spells with no issue.

For #2: You can take Weapon Focus (melee touch) to boost your attack bonus by 1. A True strike wand is always another option, though it uses up a standard action so you'd be attacking every other round, essentially. When you get enough cash, you could buy an enchanted gauntlet which would up your touch attack rolls also.

Other 1st-level Clr/Oracle spells that will give you a bonus to your touch attacks: Bless, Divine favor, Swallow Your Fear. In fact, all three of these would stack (Bless is a +1 morale bonus to attack, Divine favor is a +1 luck bonus to attack, and Swallow your Fear is a +2 morale bonus to Str, giving you a total of +3 to attack). Get yourself some wands/scrolls of each of these, buff yourself up for the first couple rounds of combat, then have at it.

I know it seems like crappy action economy, but it's better to waste a couple rounds buffing and then have your attacks actually hit than to run right in and miss with every attack.

[Nicos]

Zaleen wrote:

2) Oracle attack bonus is terrible and I have no idea how to boost my chance to hit something with these touch attacks beyond taking weapon finesse (which I have). With my mystery's spells, if I miss with them, it still uses my daily alloted charge for it, and I want to focus on just landing attacks and minimizing fail chance - I don't care about damage, just connecting the abilities.

Few enemies have high Touch AC. With 2 levels and 18 to dex you have +5 to the hit. You should have more than 50% to hit with a touch spell. If you want more chances to hit you can take (as cartmanbeck suggested) Weapon focus (melee touch) and increase your Dex stat.

Note that with few exception the hihger your level the easier to hit with a touch attack against a CR equivalent monster.

[PepticBurrito]

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why your missed Mystery SPELLS are wasted on a missed touch attack.

Page 216, Core Rule Book

"Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates."

The only "Touch spells" that will be wasted on a miss are ray attacks. The ONLY ray attack you get as part of your Oracle Mystery Revelation is Disintegrate, which is a 7th level spell.

The only ray attack you have available to you as a 2nd level Oracle is Ray of Sickening.

If you miss a touch attack with Memory Lapse, the spell is stored until you cast another spell OR decide to quit trying to do a touch attack.

Now, if you're talking about "Erase from Time", that is easy to improve your chance to hit. It is written very specifically. Ultimate Magic, pg 56, "As a melee touch attack, you can temporarily remove a creature from time altogether."

It is important to understand that is not a spell or spell like ability and it is done as a melee touch attack. A melee attack is a specific kind of standard action. This means you can use a Longspear while using the ability Erase from Time (Core Rule Book, Pg 142). It is a Melee reach weapon. You will be able to use the usual tricks to get bonuses to hit with it (Weapon Focus, Masterwork, Enchantment) for the purposes of doing a Melee Attack that hits touch AC, aka melee touch attack.

You have probably confused a "Melee Attack" with how you deliver a spell with a range of "Touch". They are two separate things. (see Core Rule Book, pg 182 and pg 213 for more info). You can certainly use Melee weapons to do Melee touch attacks. You aren't limited to using just your hand.

In terms of your Armor, with a Dex of 18. At low levels, just use Studded Leather. When you can afford it, get your hands on a Mithral Breastplate or a Mithral Chain Shirt (depends on how much you care about the -2 armor check that the Mithral Breastplate will still have on it).

[Corlindale]

" You can certainly use Melee weapons to do Melee touch attacks. You aren't limited to using just your hand."

Wait, that doesn't sound right. I know that can be done with a Conductive weapon, but it's not something you can just do right off the bat. And it's not really something you'd want to be doing, if you already have trouble hitting.

AC is naturally upgraded by magic items, you can easily get a couple of extra points if that's where you want to invest most of your wealth (enchanted armor, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, ring of force shield, etc...). And if you like to get up close and personal with touch attacks that's probably a decent idea. But right now, with 18 dex at level 2, your AC should be decent. Switch to a mithril medium armor (which won't slow your speed) when you can afford it.

Concealment and similar is also a nice extra defense.

And as others have said, very soon you'll have no trouble hitting touch AC - as it generally stays at similar values for enemies throughout the level range.

[PepticBurrito]

Corlindale wrote:

" You can certainly use Melee weapons to do Melee touch attacks. You aren't limited to using just your hand."

Wait, that doesn't sound right. I know that can be done with a Conductive weapon, but it's not something you can just do right off the bat. And it's not really something you'd want to be doing, if you already have trouble hitting.

What this really comes down to is how does one read the class ability text for "Erase from Time". There are two ways to look at it.

1. It's a Melee attack that hits an AC of touch. If this is the case, a melee weapon can be used to deliver the affect of the class ability.

2. It's a spell like ability and as such, functions identically to casting a spell, then touching the target with your hand. If that's the case, the following things are true. You must charge the attack first; this will elicit an attack of opportunity. You can take a full move action after charging the attack and touch the target as a free action. Missing the target will NOT discharge the ability, you can try again until you succeed or until you cast another spell.

It's not called a Spell Like ability. It's not called a spell. It's called a Melee Touch Attack, which says to me it's a Melee Attack that hits an AC of touch.

[Lord Tyrnan Kloff]

I used Mage hands as a Pale Master in 3.5 to do touch attacks from range(it even said that they can be delivered this way in the spell, not sure on PF)

If you don't mind a few feats for armour Dodge, Mobillity, Lightning stance, Wind stance all togeather in the feat list in the core rulebook work on Dex and makeing armour better in one way or another.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Lord Tyrnan Kloff wrote:

I used Mage hands as a Pale Master in 3.5 to do touch attacks from range(it even said that they can be delivered this way in the spell, not sure on PF)

If you don't mind a few feats for armour Dodge, Mobillity, Lightning stance, Wind stance all togeather in the feat list in the core rulebook work on Dex and makeing armour better in one way or another.

I believe you're thinking of the spectral hand spell (wiz/sor 2). Mage hand could never be used to deliver touch attacks.

[Ughbash]

Also bear in mind that a MONK which you had the melee wil ahve the best touch AC. That is their specialty. If you had done it with a fighter you might ahve faired better.

[mage4fun]

I thought that the only way to deliver a touch spell with a weapon is for classes that have arcane channeling?

On the above statements it sounds as if you are saying that if you cast chill touch, that since the spell is a touch attack that you can attack with (let´s say a) dagger to hit, damage, and use spell?

Granted that I am a bit new to pathfinder, but I did look up the conductive magic ability to understand it and it does state:

"A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric’s domain granted power, sorcerer’s bloodline power, oracle’s mystery revelation, or wizard’s arcane school power)."

So, if you can please inform me how this (cast spell thru weapon) is a normal ability I would like to know. I currently do not allow this (as I did not think it was possible) with my group, but if I am in error, please point it out t0 me so that I can allow my group to do this if available.
Thanks

[PepticBurrito]

mage4fun wrote:

I thought that the only way to deliver a touch spell with a weapon is for classes that have arcane channeling?

We are not talking about a spell. We are talking about the Oracle Mystery of Time and it's ability "Erase from time". No where does it say it's a touch spell, it merely says it's a Melee Touch Attack.

If I tell you a ranged action activates as a Ranged Touch Attack, do you assume it's a ranged Spell? Spells are VERY specific abilities. They are, rules wise, even differentiated from "Spell Like abilities", which are in turn differentiated from Supernatural abilities. Supernatural abilities are not spells, they are Supernatural abilities. They don't function via the same rules. Spell activation as his own specific laid out ruleset in the book that functions as an exception to the general rule set for actions.

The Oracle Mystery Time ability called "Erase from Time" is a Supernatural ability. It is not a spell or spell like ability. There is no reason to treat it as a spell or spell like ability. There is no reason to assume it operates under the same rule sets as spells or spell like abilities. Which means, when it says it a "Melee Touch Attack", then it's just a Melee Touch Attack. It is NOT activating a spell with the range of "Touch". Which means, it's a Melee Attack that hits touch AC. Which means it can be used with a melee weapon.

[Lord Tyrnan Kloff]

I suck at ah Quoteing, Yeah thats what I was meaning Tiny. Spectral hands.

[Mojorat]

Generally you can assume a such ability that says its a touch attack follows the normal rules. Basically there are nit a lot of ways to do a touch attack with a weapon and doing so would be a special case.