Xyr's page

I really need to speak against allowing 3.5 book with PF. Any time I have seen or heard it happen it was a train wreck in terms of balance.

Also Xyr,

I just got through reading your "unfair trap" TPK thread. Do you even like your gaming group?

To be honest everyone's tempers have been running short recently, mine especially so. My stress load is through the roof and I'm on one hand totally sick of people but on the other to miserable to stay coped up by my self at home all the time.

Hmm, you could reward the player with a awesome magical item, a helm of opposite alignment. Jokes aside, just talk to the guy and ask what he wants out of the game.

I already know what he wants. He wants to be able to role play his character with autonomy. The issue of autonomy is a hot button issue with him due to IRL drama. The problem is that this is a team game and he is the kind of selfish pick who hides behind a victim complex IRL to not understand just how big of an ass he is most of the time. When accused of it or worse show proof of it he feints totally ignorance and cries. I'm not joking.

I think I am going to start by having the consequences of his actions come back to bite him and few times. Not attacks against him unless it persists, just forcing him and the party to see the impact on the communities affected by him. If he doesn't stop I will send a Paladin after him.

A few examples since some people asked:

Attempting to kill an NPC leader the party was negotiating with without agreement of the party members doing the negotiations. He actually failed to sneak up on them and their guards and the party members who were doing the negotiation were surrounded and outnumbered. One reached 0 HP and the other not far from. Mean while he actually ran and hid for 3 turns while 2 of them were nearly killed.

Stealing from business in towns for the sake of doing it even though the amount of gold got from it was effectively meaningless at his level.

My only advise is harsh, and likely to cause you not like me.

Your wrong, even if you are right in this situation. The very fact that you feel strongly enough to mention hitting him in the face means you have already lost this argument. My advice? Let it go and try to have fun playing your character, instead of letting how he plays his ruin your game.

I'm the DM. I said no evil characters and I find him to be acting evilly. He's arguing with me about it but I can't just kick him out of the group due to him being other people's only ride. I know he is trying to leverage that to get his way. I just don't like him that much but there is not much I can do about having mutual friends.

Does he put people in danger as that's the most expedient course of action given the circumstances, or do other options present themselves and he consistently chooses to place innocents in danger?

Other options are present but they are not interested in discussing the matter with allies to the point of initiating a series of actions without the groups consent. They also resent the idea of needing group consent to do anything OOC as well as IC.

I hate alignment, it starts arguments and generally fails to do what it sets out to do conceptually.

Now that that's off my chest tell me one thing so I can throw public opinion at the person the dispute is with:

Is it CE or CN if a character routinely puts allies and innocents alike in danger due to selfishness. The selfishness is characterized as seeking personal gain at the expense of other's safety and putting one's safety so far ahead of other's safety as to openly endanger them to even marginally improve their own safety.

I honestly want to punch this jackass in the face for thinking he is neutral.

The first time I read about Synthesists the first thought that came to my mind was "It's Morphin' Time!" and if it was not your's you just don't like fun.

How do you normally build your encounters?

In CoC I built what the narrative called for when there actually was combat. This usually involved the PCs being chased, themselves setting traps or cleverly using terrain features to do most of the actually effective things they accomplished. Totally different style of game so I dunno.

Xyr wrote:

Human Cleric

Elf Witch
Gnome Summoner
Human Gunslinger

This will be my first time DMing for Pathfinder, all of my other GMing experience has been with other systems. Is there anything I should be aware of when dealing with this party set up in terms of what kind of things to avoid throwing at them? Everyone is level 6.

How is the Witch built? What kind of Summoner?

The summoner (happens to be the previous DM from the last thread I made) is using a Quadruped with Mount, Ability Increase Strength, Flight, Wing Buffet. He plans to ride it wielding a light crossbow and scrolls/wands.

The witch's hex's are cauldron, charm, disguise and evil eye. No sure on spell list yet.

Well, my honest advice, is if it's your first time DMing pathfinder, starting at level 1 would have been much more solid choice, so you can learn things with less abilities getting in the way, and know what your players can do better.

That being said, theres nothing 'un-well rounded' about your party.

They have healing, control, frontline (cleric or eidolon, or heck, gunslinger - they can wear heavy armor) and ranged damage covered

Starting level is a group consensus thing. If they are not to unwell rounded it shouldn't be that big of a deal. I just didn't really about how the summoner may set up his Eidolon.

Human Cleric
Elf Witch
Gnome Summoner
Human Gunslinger

This will be my first time DMing for Pathfinder, all of my other GMing experience has been with other systems. Is there anything I should be aware of when dealing with this party set up in terms of what kind of things to avoid throwing at them? Everyone is level 6.

Trap sounds great. I've used similar in fact. I miss the spell turrets from DMG II though. Used to be able to get a couple spells off for cheap.

At 8th level the wizard and cleric have 3rd and 4th level spells. Why are the 2nd level so important?

Trolls can be disabled without multiple fire or acid weapons. A favourite trick of my group is just to tag them with acid splash then the melee tear into them. Were the trolls being buffed or assisted by the priestess? Base they have ac 16 and a +8 to hit. They aren't even as high a cr as the 4 dwarves. Unlimited cantrips that negate regen make it kind of a joke now, on trolls anyways.

As to that and the dwarves, why is there no full BAB in the group? At level 8 a full BAB class should be rocking a +14 to hit easily, hitting ac 24 on a 10 without any buffs from others. Especially with a lightning bolt rocking the narrow hallway, it should easily hit all 4. With invisibility and surprise and ambush, this should have been easy unless everyone got horrible rolls.

Well IIRC the Wizards level 3 and 4 spells were Symbol of Revelation, Remove Curse, Heat Stroke*, Lightning Bolt*, Daylight*, Gaseous Form. *Indicated it had already been cast by the final encounter. Our Wizard generally prepares a lot of utility spells with his higher level slots and spams scorching ray for attack but these events through him off his routine. The Cleric I can only recall Blessing of Fervor, Freedom of Movement*, Sacred Bond*, Daylight.

Cave Trolls have sonic as a secondary regen impairment, not acid. We don't know for sure if they were buffed but they may be. The Dwarves entered the encounter already buffed (we know because they told us via the taunts they used) so it wouldn't surprise me if the Trolls either gained some benefit from the runic collars they were wearing or had Bull's Strength cast on them.

Yeah, we didn't have any Full BAB people in our party, no one wanted to be one. Unbuffed my Inquisitor's to hit in melee is +10, I generally buff myself obviously but I can't do it all the time. We did kill them quickly, they did manage to pound the crap out of the rogue easily though, he has 11 Con so his unmodified rolled HP sucks.

Xyr wrote:

The DM literally laughed about it because he read us like a book. We killed one to dead but the last one killed the cleric who was the last of us standing.

So, TPK? And the DM was laughing?

... was anyone else?

He laughed before it was apparent we were going to die, just that he knew which way we would end up bypassing the trap so he put enemies that would be more challenging without the Wizard's level 2 slots all being fire spells.

We could have been smarter and lived too, but we let ourselves get trapped by perceiving the threat of 4 level 5 Dwarf warriors as greater than running into a unknown room without checking it over first. If we didn't trigger that trap we could have ran back to the fireball chamber and used it against the trolls.

Well the game is tonight so I will let you guys know how it goes. I'll get the group to try these things plus anything else they have though of over the week.

We literally just finished the trap room and the encounters that followed.

We rested so the Wizard could prepare invisibility 4 times using all his second level slots, we walked through the other side of the room unmolested by the trap. The rogue unlocked the door and everyone aided other on the Cleric's Strength check to move the door to attempt to get it in one go. As soon as the door moved a fireball exploded directly on it from the trap, Rogue was totally unaffected, my Inquisitor saved for half but the wizard and cleric were kinda hurt. We moved into the next room right away so we didn't get fired at again.

The new room was a octagon with 20ft sides. The door we went through was on the west wall and two 10ft wide hallways stretched off down the north-east and south-east walls. We went down the north-east hallway for 120ft still invisible and we heard a large racket, 4 heavily armoured dwarven women came trundling down the corridor in a 2x2 block, front one with tower shields & short swords, rear ones with long spears. Their shields bared the symbol of Nethys. We couldn't avoid them so we decided to fight through them, figuring a identical patrol was being sent down the other corridor and we would be fighting both if we retreated. They turned out to be all level 5 Warriors who had been blessed and their weapons were masterwork. We beat in a few turns but the wizard spent his Lighting Bolt to do it because their AC was high (the tower shield ones had 24) and we were in a hurry. The Rogue was pretty banged up and to heal him to full depleted one of the Clerics level 2 and one level 3 slot. We rushed down the hall, hearing that an identical patrol is behind us until we reached the room we all died in.

We didn't check for traps so ran in an triggered a portculous trap on the door. I cast Heroism and Weapon of Awe on myself, Cleric casts Blessing of Fervor on everyone. A female dwarf priestess spoke to us from and told us that no one had ever stolen from this church of Nethys secret cache and lived to tell about it. We said we didn't know this was their cache and we just came to the place our divination said had the closest crystal lenses of the type we were looking for. She didn't care and then released two Cave Trolls wearing runic collars into the room.

We had no flaming attacks other than my mace, the wizard had used up all his level 2 slots normally reserved for Scorching Ray on Invisibility. The DM literally laughed about it because he read us like a book. We killed one to dead but the last one killed the cleric who was the last of us standing.

It's my turn to DM next campaign at least.

In hindsight we could have just fought the second patrol, searched for that trap that cut off our escape and had the Trolls chase us to the fireball trap. I think the DM intended that but on the catch we didn't rush in like idiots but we did.

This trap is so flagrantly illegal you wouldn't believe.

Spell traps cannot reset.

CRB page 418 second paragraph wrote:

No Reset: Short of completely rebuilding the trap there's no way to trigger it more than once. Spell traps have no reset element.

Spell traps have no reset element.

Has that been errata'd perchance?

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/environment.html wrote:

No Reset: Short of completely rebuilding the trap, there's no way to trigger it more than once. Spell traps have no reset element.

No. Spell traps have no reset element.

Tell your GM that if he want to cheat that blatantly you can find another GM.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/tr aps

Scroll down "Table: Cost Modifiers for Magic Device Traps" and it has a listed cost to build reset mechanism for magical traps, including how much the cost of material components for the spells cost.

Well the game is tonight so I will let you guys know how it goes. I'll get the group to try these things plus anything else they have though of over the week.

A single silent image spell is not too much to ask. Or a single darkness spell. Or a single invisibility for the rogue to cross and figure out how the door operates/traps thereon.

I fail to see how Silent Image will work. Who says the trap has to fire at it if there are other people in the room? If the other people are all bunched up who's to say it isn't programmed to fire at groups over individuals if two options are presented.

The rogue could do that but even if he gets it unlocked the rest of the party will eat 4 turns of fire balls at least getting to it let alone while making checks to open it.

I also know the DM will make Darkness not work "I'm such a smart trap maker, I'll program it to fire into any area that becomes obscured / anything that moves, even if that moving thing is an area of darkness". Traps can be set to have specific triggers so the builder's own dudes don't set it off, I fail to see how specific detailed programs is impossible. The person who makes the trap couldn't reasonably be less Intelligent than 18.

What levels are you guys to encounter a CR 9 trap and not have immediate access to fog clouds, invisibility, darkness, and dispel magic?

Read closer. I already said that our Wizard could prepare all his level 2 slots to bypass this encounter but we are paranoid because we don't know how many encounters are on the other side of the door or if we will be able to rest to regain spells any time soon once the door is open. In the past our DM has use big "you can totally bypass this easy and I know what slots you will have to use up to do it, enjoy fighting a big encounter without access to the other things that could have been in those slots immediately after. Or you know you could think of a clever way to get through with only moderate loss of resources with more risk involved." We are also on a deadline so we can't stop to regain spells that often.

Everything I've read here so far falls into the former category.

Xyr wrote:

The cavern chamber is very large and the door on the far side is locked in addition to being a huge rolling disk that will take us several attempts (or taking 20) to move.

Depending on how long the combination of crossing the chamber, checking the door for extra traps, picking the lock and moving the door will take, the "soak up some damage" or "weaken the party" aspect may not be a reasonable option.

Searching the door for more traps and picking its lock without light or Darkvision is probably going to be prohibitively hard too, so crossing the room under the cover of darkness might have to wait for a spell refresh at least.

How long does the party have to "do" this dungeon? Is the adventure pressed for time, or is it just a static location you could come back to without expecting the residents to go "Tucker's Kobolds" on you when you return?

Unfortunately we are pressed for time, even if we were not our DM is a huge advocate of "living worlds that don't revolve around the PCs" so nothing is ever static. We have 12 days but to go to town and back would take 10 plus another 5 to get back to town once we have the treasure. If we don't leave the dungeon in 6 days and get to town the Church of Desna won't have the crystal lenses they need in time to Observe a comet properly that only passes this close every 58 years. It has to do with a divination ritual, what I assume will be the hook for our next adventure. If we do fail our DM will likely have the events happen with us not knowing about it and just have it be a case of another failure with a negative impact on the game world.

Dispel Magic?

We would have to know the specific location of the trap, everything I know about it is OOC knowledge other than its a Fireball. Acting on knowing that it's Arcane Eye is pretty metagaming already.

Have you considered the darkness spell? 2nd level, end of the CR 9 trap.

That could work unless the trap is designed to shoot at anything suspicious / moving. I wouldn't put that past the GM. We wouldnt be able to cast it close to the source of the trap itself.

PS: For reference the chamber is 125ft across to the door but the path winds so it would be more like 200ft and our average base land speed is 25ft. We could reduce that time with more Wizard spells but our DM goes out of his way to prevent 5 minute work days so we can't ever be sure we will be able to rest after the Wizard or Cleric goes nova.

I think we should just back track to town so we can grab some scrolls or potions of invisibility.

It's just Arcane Eye. Invisibility or Vanish work really well on it. Alternately, darkness stops it's ability to see, since it doesn't have darkvision or lowlight (it's got the same senses a human eye does). It's also got penalties for range to notice you guys, so sneaky/stealth is a possibility as well.

It's honestly not that hard to bypass it, there's at least 3 ways right there. I'm sure at least one of your group can get darkness and darkvision if you're high enough to be running into CR 9 traps.

We would have to leave and come back to get enough potions of invisibility to bring the entire party across in one go. We would never be able to sneak past it, even with it taking the same distance penalty our Cleric and my Inquisitor would fail hard. Our Wizard could just prepare it using all of his 2nd level slots but we would be hurting in combat for the rest of the day without his scorching rays if we don't get a chance to rest. I guess the DM is forcing us to prioritize our resources which is his job.

What is the reset time? can you not just simply Run through the cavern? Where is the eye located? How can it see you? Maybe you should take a look at the Arcane Eye spell... it shouldn't be able to just auto detect when you enter the cavern unless it's set at the entrance, in which case you could just invisibility past it.

The reset time is every other turn. We are not entitled to know where it is because we failed the Perception DC to find it, I only know it's Arcane Eye from OOC knowledge. I read the spell description and the reference to it in the Traps and Hazards section, it has unlimited range as a trigger and if on the ceiling looking down it can see the entire chamber.

I am here to see if I can get a rules conflict resolved. Our party has had our progress halted by a trap in a dungeon. The DM is not disputing whether the trap is fair or not because he says he intended it to be this hard to bypass. I personally don't think it is legal and when I look up the rules for traps well, they were not specific enough for me to figure it out.

The situation is that it hit us the first time before we even noticed it, the Rogue said he was looking for traps, rolled well, we found nothing and we were still hit.

It was a magical Fireball trap on the ceiling of a 90ft tall natural cavern chamber and the GM claims because the trap's trigger is Arcane Eye which allows unlimited range and the spell itself has a very long range we can be targeted anywhere in the large room, could not be close enough to it to search for the exact source of the Trigger or Firing Mechanism since the DC was +9 to the Perception DC due to the distance. It goes without saying that our level 8 Rogue does not have any flight options to go up and disable it either. It resets automatically.

He says it is a CR 9 Trap, even accounting for the +9 DC to the Perception check to find it due to the distance and after reading the OGC I checked his math and it looks correct. 4 for Highest Spell Level, +2 Average Damage, +1 Automatic Reset, +1 for Visual Trigger, +2 Perception DC, -1 Reflex Save.

Am I missing something? The cavern chamber is very large and the door on the far side is locked in addition to being a huge rolling disk that will take us several attempts (or taking 20) to move.

He says that it isn't meant to be impossible, just to make us think of a creative solution but damn if I can't think of one.