I read dozens of reviews and visited many forums on PF Rappan Athuk and believe I have a grasp of the setting but I was wondering if any DM could confirm something for me. I heard that the PF version does not come with all the creatures powers/abilities that are in the adventure. I was told to be able to run them correctly you need to buy their ToH.
Is this true?
Well we will have to agree to disagree. I could go all day with similar examples and situations but I answered the OP... Mission accomplished and I know from many many years of being on these boards what defending a point will get me... Wasted time. Everyone plays their own game and what works in one group will not fly in another.
Paly's Rule!!! Lol
One on One is the Only way to compare power level. Anything else brought into the mix changes the math and will make one class better then the other depending on the situation, environment, creatures etc... The only True way to compare power is one on one. I am not talking group dynamics but strictly class power.
@Amorangias If your winning encounters with those spells well you have not faced a veteran DM of worth.
As for RP... Paly can out diplomatic a Bard any day of the week. Lol.
Right spell is not a "fallacy"... In my over 30 years of DMing... The words "if I had only memorised that, this other..." Lol
I am just not in the wizard camp. They are all situational and bound by feats and school choices. Yes they rock at higher levels (say 7th or more accurately 9th) if they have the right spells ready. Paly rock from 1st level and do not need team support as wizards do until later levels. Most my game I have players end between 10 and 12 the level. So penny per pound I would take paly against any class one on one.
I will give you Druid s even though they fixed wild shape it is still a contender.Summoner is only broke because most people don't rule arc type correctly but I would still go Mono a Mono with equal level Paly.
Wizards? Depends... All save spells are out the window, debuffs with no saves yes.
My Paly (3rd party feats) in the 3rd party adv. Slumbering Tsar is 16th level and the party (7 players, all veterans) has all died twice, I am the only original PC. Swift lay on hands, mercies, High AC, damage dealer, smite (more AC), alternate mount, dual bond items (weapon, armor and mount), domain abilities...etc... I crush encounters since level 4 and have not looked back. I almost died once... But thanks to Paly spells Hero's Defiance, Litany of Righteousness, and after that round... Control Summon Creature (through PF feat Unsanctioned Knowledge) nothing has touched me.
We use to refer to 3.5 as Druids of the Coast instead of wizards as they could crush any class.
I now refer to Pathfinder as Palyfinder... They are by far the most powerful class. Martial, melee, spells, animal companion... Only weakness non-evil, well Golarion is (what?) 70 to 75% evil? If you allow 3.5 or PF 3rd party it becomes stupid. Lawful good... I luv that alignment... Not near as restrictive as one might think.
Nice of your Friends to remind you... Lol
Let me lend my 2 cents. I am a huge fan of 3.5/PF rules. BoED's is a great book! The VOP from it is not broken by any measure. If you do some research or read what the authors actual wrote in the BoED book you would have more understanding of why VOP was created.
It was meant to be used by veteran players who have grown tired or bored with the standard classes/system of play. It was to challenge those players by taking the feat and trying something different. It was suppose to be hard to play a VOP Paly or any other classes dependant on gear... The "broken" part came as with any rule system when people pick classes that build upon and work extremely well with the feat instead of how it was intend... to challenge yourself.
The new Vows are horrible... You give up a lot for nothing but that IB itself could be a challenge depends on how you look at it.
Fire Mountain Games wrote:
Thank you so much for the reply and the advice i truly appreciate it.
If your blasting... Flight is awesome. If you want melee dinosaurs make the best for wild shape with combos of Pounce (at higher levels) with multi natural attacks. I am on my smart phone or I would give you a list. Check out D20pfsrd and search Dinosaurs will give you a nice selection to choose from.
Fire Mountain Games wrote:
I had them do a side quest as well to level up. Took a little effort but I ran PF module "No response from Deepmar" on Seal Island. I found the hellish background of the module fit well. I had to power down some encounters by numbers or young template but it was very rewarding. The PC hunted around the island on the way to Fireaxes camp and really wanted to explore it more but they were on the clock so I let them go back and ran a modified version of the module.
Basically I let them find some info out (rumor) that a new prison was being built in secret on the isle, since my group is so looking forward to using the optional rules for evil organizations from book two, that this was a great way to liberate some minions from the clutches of Mitra. It was a solid fit and it might just be me but I also found they were under the wealth by level chart so the module filled that gap as well.
I have purchased first 3 PDF's and read them all.... Great Game! I am having a blast running it.
I do have to ask for some advice (retro, in case I run it for a 2nd group) at the Watch Tower in the end of book one the PC's really got into RP and sucking every rumor out of me and had formulated many other ways of weakening the towers defenses. The trouble we ran into was endless debate how to handle each individual situation. We had a group leader (cleric of Asmodeus) but they could never agree on a single course of action. I eventually had the leader assign a different course of action to each PC for them to run as they seen fit and make all the decisions about it, this way everyone had a say and actions in the towers downfall. But it felt kinda forced and not smooth but the debates about what actions to take had went on for 2 gaming sessions.
Any better way to have handled that?
No, you were not unfair. Players need to learn that meta-gaming does not always help them. A lot of times, I like to re-skin creatures so that players don't know what they are up against and can't use their meta-game knowledge to their PCs advantage. You were fair, you gave them a chance to identify and the dice determined what happened and gave them knowledge of the Screech instead of the Dance. The player would probably still have been mad if he rolled a 1 on the d20 for knowledge thinking that you should have given it to him anyhow.
I agree with this 100%
If you play with veteran players you almost have to change up powers and abilities... sometimes its very hard to sep Player vs Character knowledge.
I used the rule for over 2 years but ironically PF came up with something similar...
Prerequisites: Evasion class feature, improved evasion class feature, acrobatics 12 ranks.
Benefit: When you successfully use improved evasion to avoid taking damage, you can move up to half your speed as an immediate action. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
Nope. No cigar for you... nice try though but i think like a player as well. lol As said above it has to be the shortest simplest move (Dm has final say). Usually involves dropping to the ground or stepping behind a fellow PC. larger moves cause AoO's.- This solved several problems in my games.
1. The AoO + Dodge bonus to AC from class that gave you evasion prevented a ton of dips for evasion. Which was an issue in my group as I have alot of NPC casters in my encounters.
2. The group, as a whole, had an issue with how evasion worked. So I am standing in the the middle of a 20 ft room and a fireball goes off... I make my evasion roll and no damage...? My group did not like that so we can up with this rule and it works very well.
Are you guys referring to GiTP (Giants In the Playground)? I do not know the optional rules you are talking about for Diplomacy and Polymorph, I would love a link as well.
I agree with what your saying to a point. I most certainly always point out to a person where a suggestion is coming from be it 3.0 / 3.5 or a house rule.One of the points i was trying to make (besides the obvious point) was that people try so hard to create a certain concept of a character but seems like the rules do not always allow it to be the way they want. So they end up settling for something close and therefor not as fun as they would like.
Good debates on casting defensively also I never considered removing the non AoO from a 5ft. step.
My standard PF/3.5 House rules
I have more for custom games but those are standard for my PF/3.5 games.
I have never seen the rules get in the way. The rules cover most things, and what they don't cover the GM should rule on to keep the game moving.
Wraithstrike First thanks on the VOP thing. Second I like your post and I generally agree with you on most things.I play with 2 groups one with 9 players and the other with 7 players. A large age gap in the groups with one group ages running from 18 - 21 (with the exception of myself age 42) they are new to the game and the second group ages range from 28 - 50 and all veteran players of at least 12 years each.
Each group has at least 2 players that use the rules to break the game.
One Example: The CMD system... They will build PC's that tear CMD's apart and it's not very hard to do. Then the DM gets frustrated at the game mechanics and tries to fix it "by the rules" which is impossible as CMD increases vs the increases to CMB's is not an easy task. Sure anyone can build one encounter to be a challenge but not the entire game. So usually the games ends early and a new game starts.
Now with that many players and age difference i cannot believe that is only happening within my group. The rules do get in the way and sometimes you have to simply house rule in some fixes so the game can continue. Everyone should have the right to play what they want and if you use the rules that way the DM should have no problem putting a "fix" in via house rule.
or am I wrong in that thinking?
A lot of good responses here...
3.5 Loyalist and tony gent said it much better then I ever could. I believe too many rules take away from the game at some point you reach rules saturation. lol
Also not trying to say Society play is better then home play or visa versa... just that people become too dependent on the rules to tell them how to play and that takes some of the fun out from my point of view.
@Skylancer4 I was not including the Rules forum where of course you would use the rules... common sense dictates that. I see people quote the rules on every board on here.
Well I guess I should of stated pathfinder Society as an exception. Of course if your trying to make a system to be played anywhere in the world rules need to have standardization.
That being said I see alot of none PF society guys on the boards always asking how they can do something and trying as hard as they can "within the rules" to tweet a build to what they want when with a little house ruling it would be easy. I wonder if the new crop of DM's are just core rule guys or is their room left to truly create something of your own as the game was meant to do?
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
I also use alot of custom rules in my games. I admit sometimes they don;t work out as I thought they would but other times... smashing success. I do learn from each time I change a rule... the mechanics and how it effects other parts of the game.
What are some of your favorite houserules?
I have a few more but I like to hear yours, may help some of my games.
Hey folks! It has been a while since I posted something and I thought I would throw this out and see if anyone feels the way I do. I see over and over again and again on the boards or in my group how people cannot do this or try that because the rules do not allow it.
When (way back...) I first started using RPG games you were lucky if you had one book to share and nothing else to go on but your imagination. You had to create everything from scratch, make up rules, invent ways to do things because we had no one else to do it for us. Now days Pathfinder is so good at helping DM's and Players that very little actual imagination is needed but does it make it less important? Why the disregard for making up your own rules?
Straight from Pathfinder...
The Most Important Rule
The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.
I like to know if people do alot of house rules or if your a core rule person and why?
Scott Walsh wrote:
Wow I think you should read a post before putting the idea down? I said it was too powerful but since the DM shows some imagination by letting a few of his items scale it is a good fit. Simply remove things from the list until you get what you need. Even just armor + weapon bonus would work for his PC and that by no means breaks a game. The game was meant for you to create you own flavor, if you become too wrapped up in the rules you lose the fun...
Well it looks like you DM is working with you which is awesome! I suggest the 3.5 Feat from BOED Vow of Poverty "VOP" (not PF water down version).
You could add your own flavor to it (instead of VOP) call it a donation to the god of Nature or whatever you title you like to wrap around it.
This Feat does everything you need it to...
Character Level Benefits
1st AC bonus +4
To lessen the power of the Feat you could removed the bonus feats or any other part that your DM thinks is too much but keep the armor bonuses and exhalted strike bonus can be added to any weapon you hold. Basically you can customize it to fit you needs, it gives you a great starting point to work with.
In many cultures and belief systems, the height of purity is embodied in an ascetic lifestyle that involves forswearing all material possessions. Such a life is hard for most D&D characters even to imagine, since their possessions--particularly their magic items--are such an important part of their capabilities. A character who swears a vow of poverty and take the appropriate feats, Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, cannot own magic items, but he gains certain spiritual benefits that can help outweigh the lack of those items. These benefits depend on his character level. The level at which the character swears the vow (and takes the appropriate feats) is irrelevant; if he gives up his possessions at 10th level he gains all the benefits of a 10th-level ascetic character, with the exception of bonus exalted feats.
AC Bonus (Su): A 1st-level ascetic receives a +4 exalted bonus to his Armor Class. The bonus increases to +5 at 3rd level, and thereafter increases by +1 for each 3 character levels. This bonus does not apply to touch attacks and does not hinder incorporeal touch attacks. Brilliant energy weapons, however, do not ignore this bonus. This does not stack with an armor bonus.
Bonus Exalted Feats: At 1st level, an ascetic gets a bonus exalted feat, and another bonus feat at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter. Unlike the other benefits of a vow of poverty, a character does not gain these bonus feats retroactively when he takes the Vow of Poverty feat; he only gains those bonus feats that apply for the levels he gains after swearing his vow. Thus, the bonus feat gained at 1st level is available only to humans who take both Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty at 1st level.
Endure Elements (Ex): A 3rd-level ascetic is immune to the effects of being in a hot or cold environment. He can exist comfortably in conditions between -50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit without having to make Fortitude saves (as described in the Dungeon Master's Guide).
Exalted Strike (Su): At 4th level, an ascetic gains a +1 enhancement bonus on all his attack and damage rolls. In effect, any weapon the character wields becomes a +1 magic weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were a magic weapon. This enhancement bonus rises to +2 at 10th level, to +3 at 14th level, to +4 at 17th level, and to +5 at 20th level. At 10th level, any weapon damage the character deals is also considered to be good-aligned, so that it can bypass the damage reductions of some evil outsiders.
Sustenance (Ex): At 5th-level ascetic doesn't need to eat or drink.
Deflection (Su): A 6th-level ascetic receives a +1 deflection bonus to his Armor Class. This bonus increases to +2 at 12th level, and to +3 at 18th level.
Resistance (Ex): At 7th level, an ascetic gains a +1 resistance bonus on all saving throws. This bonus increases to +2 at 13th level, and to +3 at 17th level.
Ability Score Enhancement (Ex): At 7th level, an ascetic gains a +2 enhancement bonus to one ability score. At 11th level, he gains an extra +2 bonus to that score, and a +2 bonus to another ability score. At 15th level, he gains an extra +2 bonus to those two scores, and a +2 bonus to a third ability score. At 19th level, he gains an extra +2 bonus to those three scores, and a +2 bonus to a fourth ability score.
Natural Armor (Ex): At 8th level, an ascetic gains a +1 natural armor bonus, or his existing natural armor bonus increases by +1. It increases an extra +1 at 16th level.
Mind Shielding (Ex): Also at 8th level, an ascetic character becomes immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to discern his alignment.
Damage Reduction (Su): An ascetic gains damage reduction 5/magic at 10th level. At 15th level, this improves to 5/evil, and at 19th level to 10/evil.
Greater Sustenance (Ex): Once he attains 12th level, an ascetic character doesn't need to breathe.
Energy Resistance (Ex): At 13th level, an ascetic gains resistance 5 to acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic energy. At 20th level, this increases to resistance 15.
Freedom of Movement (Ex): At 14th level, an ascetic can act as if continually under the effect of a freedom of movement spell.
Regeneration (Ex): At 17th level, an ascetic heals 1 point of damage per level per hour rather than every day. (This ability cannot be aided by the Heal skill.) Nonlethal damage heals at a rate of 1 point of damage per level every 5 minutes.
True Seeing (Su): At 18th level, an ascetic gains a continuous true seeing ability, as the spell.
OTHER RAMIFICATIONS OF POVERTY
Wow talk about being sold down the river... and I thought my group was ruthless...
Great stories... glad to see I am not the only one with terrible luck.
My most recent...
Playing a game based in Taldor and were level 8. I have a 3.5/PF Sorc going into the PRC Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. We have a member of the group who is a monk/grappler and he has been tearing up the DM's NPC's CMD's the entire game, so much so that the DM had to make special Bosses or unique NPC just to handle him.
We enter a throne room to take out a BBEG because of a plot we just uncovered and a battle erupts in a room filled with tons of NPC's. The grappler usually goes fro the BBEG but for some reason he jumps on a minion and this BBEG was made to handle him. Well the rest of the groups gets creamed trying to fight a Boss meant for a min/max grappler.
I use Vampiric touch on minions to up my hit points and move to help our leader engaged with the BBEG, meanwhile the monk continued to grapple minions. We take BBEG down with only 3 of us left standing but a fairly butch undead remained and he charged. Needless to say I died after we had defeated the BBEG. Nice huh?
I am going to be playing my first Gunslinger in Frog god Games Slumbering Tsar adventure path and I have a question.
I thought I heard or read somewhere that a feat or some other rule that would allow you to fire you gun while threatened and not provoke an AoO but for the life of me I cannot find it anywhere.
I know Point Blank Master does this but it requires Weapon Spec as a prerequisite and that in turn requires Fighter 4th.
I agree the side quests need to be tied in more to the game, just going from combat coliseum to combat is kinda boring. Part of the problem is my RP PC died and I am playing a CN Barbarian who is not really plot driven, every time I have a PC die and come back in with a new one half way through an adventure I lose a bit of connection to the game that my original had.
The plot mix at the party with the devil servers (cannot remember whose party it was) really had me confused (as a player)... So much was going on, at least 5 separate plots so I just followed the first one offered.
I am trying to follow up on helping break the slaves free from the Khan, we even traveled to the isle. Upon arriving we were unsure what to do next? We kinda RP'd between each other until a NPC showed up and said staying the night was a bad idea. The rest of the group took that as a DM hint to leave so we did.
I like to follow more plots, I am unsure if the rest of the group does or if they are a bit confused like me. I may just need more obvious DM hints... Lol on what is correct course of actions.
I like it.
Here is the problem I see and it is in the suspension of realism.
1. Many Abyssal creature can Teleport at will.
* You will need some natural phenomenon that prevents extra dimensional travel.
Oh yeah we have one like that... ROFL
We were playing in a homebrew 3.5/PF game - High Fantasy and Opt PC's. A Dragon based game and were had to have a connection with Dragons. DM allowed a few choices.
1. Dragon Leadership for a cohort using Zerzix Bestiary levels down in converstion forum. To make it simple he gave them bonded hoard powers similiar to VOP from 3.5 BOED. Those Dragons were powerful.
2. Half-Dragon template for free no level adjusting.
3. Dragon blooded template (bonuses to stats / NA / nat claw attacks)
(This next one was posted as well but meant for NPC's and Leadership cohort connections).
4. Dragonwrought Tattoo's (+'s to intimidate/diplomancy with Dragons).
In this game we were also allowed to play any type of creature we wanted from Bestiary levels or Savage Species break down.
Half Dragon Fallen Hound Archon
Lich Elven Magus
Half-Dragon Druid was allowed to assume Dire animal forms and more powerful Elemental forms.
And last and certainly LEAST...
Human Dragonwrought tattoo Rogue lol
Every game he picks the least opt PC and usually leads us to trouble or some other PC death. Usually uses a bow and stays out of combat until thinks look well in hand.
Yeah so I know what you mean!
Don't worry about all the balance talk. The game is inherently unbalanced. (EX:) A meleer should never equal a caster and visa versa... They both fill thier rolls perfectly. pathfinder did a great job boosting the base classes. The best part is it is all compatible, so take a look at the PF SRD and do some reading.
As with any game everyone has likes and dislikes, just depends on your RP style. Example opposed rolls PC vs NPC is almost gone aka... Trip, grapple, disarm etc....
If you were a Min/ Max guy in 3.5 you will find all you need and want in PF. If you want RP the adventure Paths are awesome + 3 rd party modules rock as well. My group been together 8 years, before that we were all Original DnD guys and 2nd. I initially voted against PF but have since come around as I love powerful characters and PF has that ability.
Enjoy a good read, check out the rest of forums and make decision as a group.
I like the build and added it to my favorites. I will be the first to admit I never played any of the above classes, that being said I have one question...
Your 15th level build includes Scouts Charge is that not from the Scout archetype for Rogues? Can that be used with Ninja/Monk?
I may have missed something in the build it was a quick read...
If you want fighting and skills, take ranger.
I +1 this... Urban Ranger archetype is the best "rogue" character I have seen.
In a Pirate game your Favorite communities could be your port of calls. Also if your like me and always find Favorite enemy never works in your favor, take the Guide archetype.
If you do not want to deal with spells and want more physical stuff... tack on the Skirmisher archetype for Hunter tricks.
I would love to see more high level content. My group does not play much beyond level 8 except for myself and one other DM. The funny thing is the group loves to play high level but the other DMs hate to run them...
I think it has to do with prep time and the ability level of the DM. You have to know the game to run at those levels.
Wow... such great conversations going here, thanks for all the input!
OK I am good to go with the Paladin staying his alignment.
Looks like the Majority think I should warn the Wizard and not give him a shift. I will reverse the rule.
I like in game effects so how this for an answer...
I will use in game RP of him getting a 3 - 4 nights of bad sleep / dreams (of the incident) over the course of several weeks, that leave him fatigued in the morning. Unlike normal fatigue it will clear itself during the time it takes for him to study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells.
I am enjoying reading the discussion and seeing how others handle alignments. I might have to look at my own handling of alignment system, i always been pretty hardcore on it but that may change.
Humphrey Boggard wrote:
How did the wizard justify his actions?
Well as you know any group that's been together a long time has friction and quirks. This Player (although a good friend of mine) like to stand out from the group not in combat but in as being not like everyone else. If were a evil group he plays a good PC and if were a good group plays evil. Just the way he is...
Talon Moonwalker wrote:
You are correct. Over the years the Dm's in this group have just kinda glossed over that fact.
The Paladin killed them in self defense. During the heat of battle people will make mistakes. But the Wizard knowingly and consciously slaughtered 3 helpless and bound intelligent creatures. Just to clarify did the pally detect them as evil?
Yes. "Paladin pursued them. Once he had them cornered he offered them a chance to surrender (spoken in common and used Detect Evil to verify their alignment)"
I do wonder, why didn't the other PCs (including paladin) vouch for the wizard's goblins instead? Seems strange that it would have to be that particular PC doing the vouching.
It was after combat free of rounds so the whole group was kinda talking at once and RPing with me. I talked with the leader and the PC that grappled his as they approached me first and had the mini's goblins with them on the Scurvy Duchess. The Wizards mini and 3 remaining goblins were still in the launch and he was not trying to RP with the captain.
It was a bit confusing, I admit.