Numarak wrote: I admit that the only part I can't explain is the 'or' between "those who see it" and the "are caught in it". Nor can I. Color Spray reinforces this when it says "Each creature within the cone is affected according to its HD". This spell seems to contradict itself, at least if the term "sightless" is used to describe the blind condition. It is primarily this reason that I don't think sightless means blinds (or effectively blind). If you can read something in two different ways and only one of them creates a contradiction, the other way is given more strength and credibility. I can see how a person might arrive at either conclusion though, and I was on the blind side initially myself. I am firmly in the physiology camp now, though as always, I reserve the right to be wrong.
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: Color Spray is a momentary flash of light and color, arguably brighter than a daylight spell... I'm cheering you on, really I am, but I don't see any language beyond the term "vivid" which means "to produce powerful feelings or strong, clear images in the mind." I see nothing indicated brightness of any kind, not to mention being brighter than a Daylight spell, arguably or otherwise. Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
I agree with your points here, but for vastly different reasons. 1. My stance, whatever that is worth, is that the spell only requires you to be affected by it, as in being present in the 15-foot cone. 2. Not having the light descriptor means that it cannot negate a darkness spell regardless of how Color Spray is described, or its duration.
Goth Guru wrote:
Um, okay, thanks for your thoughts good sir. I don't know exactly what you are going on about, but I don't believe anyone has questioned how saving throws or spell resistance works.
I think it is clear that a reliance on an undefined term, sightless, will result in interpretation variances. Blind (or effectively blind) vs Non-visual physiology Color Spray is indeed odd in that it doesn't require you to see the effect, only be within the affected area, and yet has an interaction with sightless. I lean towards the sightless interaction being linked to your ability to mentally visualize the spell effects, as it is a mind-affecting spell.
Numarak wrote:
Apologies, but your analysis makes no sense to me. The rules quote very clearly uses "or" not "and" as you say. Color Spray makes no mention of seeing anything, it says "...Each creature within the cone is affected according to its HD." As I said, the game rules term for the blind condition was not used, but instead "sightless" was used. Given the context of the definitions of illusions, patterns, and the text from Color Spray, I am inclined to believe that closing your eyes within the 15-foot cone won't protect you. You may be effectively blind, but you most certainly have sight and are a sighted creature. You most certainly can be effected by a mind-affecting effect within that 15-foot cone.
It seems that the argument can be made based on which understanding of "sightless" is used. With that in mind, regarding light levels and the ability to see, I've seen the text for patterns quoted, but everyone seems to gloss over one particular part. "Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells." This brings me back to the term "sightless". Color Spray is either dependent on its victims physically seeing the illusion, or mentally being able to imagine the illusion. What we know, Color Spray creates an image that others can see that occupies a 15-foot cone. Cool, understood so far. Color Spray also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in the 15-foot cone. So far, sight doesn't matter, at least not until we bring in the "sightless" clause that is specific to Color Spray. Does this refer to the physical ability to see, which would seem to ignore the mind-affecting aspect, or does this refer to the ability for the subject to imagine the illusion they are caught in? The fact that "blind" is not referenced, leads me towards the latter. Quite frankly, the spell is much cleaner and has less wonky bits if the blind condition isn't used in place of "sightless". *Edit - Color Spray also specifically requires you to be caught in the 15-foot cone to be affected, so only seeing it from outside of the 15-foot cone does nothing.
Same problem with the deathless feat chain. No point using the orc fighter favored class option to have a higher threshold for deathless or ferocity when a single point of nonlethal knocks you out. Personally it is ridiculous that an orc can take a lethal injury from a sword and keep going, but punch him with the lightest touch and he goes down. |