VedicDragon's page

I for one am fascinated to see / hear about the contributions and offerings from Jeff De Luna and Jeff Erwin. I have further contributions, but I will hold off on that for now, as there have been some MASSIVE updates to my own endeavors in the years since I last posted my campaign journal, infused by a great deal of work into "Mythic India", Sanskrit writings, the parallel evolutions of both Hindu and Zoroastrian faiths as the at times friendly, at times contentious relationship the Indian subcontinent has had with the various persian empires since the Rg Vedic period, etc.

I was also very pleased to read that some have been proponents of Ms. Wendy Donniger's work as I too have been following avidly when doing what is, sadly, some heavily informed guess-work to inspire creativity with regards to origins and interactivity between the Devas and Asuras of Hinduism, vs the Daeva and Ahuras/Asuras of Zoroastrian faith. Having grown up in a Parsee community in Mumbai for the first five years of my life has also provided me a fair bit of access and insights to this, as secretive as the Zoroastrian practices can be.

That said, I wil be happy to engage, with questions, assertions and my own findings at length in the near future. Mikaze, thank you so much for linking my own work as the first comment to this thread. I feel quite honored to be cited.

As I noticed the original link is broken, here is my half-a-decade obsolete campaign journal below:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ivz2?Mahasharpa-Sahasra-Mindshadows-Tales-of-1 000#1

Please keep up the fantastic work, folks! I look forward to comparing notes on our respective "Mythic Indias" soon!

Thank you very much! Checking these out now. I wasn't going to assume you were trolling, hence why I asked the questions I did. :)

Had a supplemental thought that may help this a bit when it comes to build modularity / versatility. Perhaps my proposed desires may be addressed by this fix below. Replace instances of these abilities with the phrase "Bonus Gadget Feat" for the corresponding levels. (I believe 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th). Extra Function and Extra Artifice Pool should also have the [Gadget] identifier. I've rewritten Extra Upgrade below. The following feats also encompass the powers left out from 3.1 to more recent builds, as well as to some extent the ones that have replaced them. (You may even wish to have them add an ancillary benefit of +1 Artifice pool point considering many of them now have an activation cost not unlike Gunslinger Deed feats). So for clarity's sake, the old name of these class powers in in parenthesis next to the Feat name.

Budget Construction (Cheap Inventions) [Gadget]:
Prerequisite: Artifice Pool, one other Gadget Feat
The engineers understanding of real-world application through expands extensive work and jury rigging with his constructs. Thus he only needs to pay 1⁄2 as much to create items with their inventor special ability (1⁄4 the price of mundane items or potions, and 1/8 the price of wondrous items). Whenever he does this, he must spend 1 point from his artifice pool

Inventor Extraordinaire (Inventor) [Gadget]
Prerequisite: Artifice Pool, 4th Level
An engineer brings a new meaning to “jury-rigging” by throwing together some spare parts. As a full-round action, the engineer can create any non-magical item worth 10 gp per class level or less by piecing together spare parts and chemicals. To do this, he must immediately spend gp equal to 1⁄2 the price of the item created to represent the materials needed. He must also make a disable device check with a DC equal to the crafting DC required to make the item. If he fails the check, the item is destroyed and he does not gain its use.

Items invented this way are unstable and do not last long. After a number of rounds equal to the engineer’s level, the item crumbles and is destroyed. Weapons created in this way (including alchemical thrown items) are weak and poorly-made and are immediately destroyed if the user rolls a 1 on an attack roll with the weapon.

There is no price limit on wondrous items, but he cannot create a wondrous item with a caster level higher than his class level. In addition, an invented wondrous item cannot have a spell level higher than his intelligence score -10. He still pays 1 ⁄ 4 the price of a wondrous item upon inventing it. He must also spend 1 artifice point per spell level of the item when creating the item, and the disable device DC is equivalent to the spellcraft DC required to create the item (including the +5 to the DC for not possessing the required spell).

Homebrewer Extraordinaire (Inventor - Potion Creation) [Gadget]
Prerequisite: Artifice Pool, 4th Level
The engineer has dabbled in enough chemistry to pick up potion-craft. Perhaps this is enhanced by his love of a cool pint after a hard day in the lab. As a full-round action, he brews potions by imparting some of his quasi-magical energy into the scrap and chemicals as he concocts and ferments them (this is instead a supernatural ability). To do this, he must immediately spend gp equal to 1⁄2 the price of the item created to represent the materials needed. He must also make a disable device check with a DC equal to the crafting DC required to make the potion. If he fails the check, the brew is destroyed and he does not gain its use. There is no price limit on invented 'brews but he cannot create a potion with a caster level higher than his class level. In addition, an invented potion cannot have a spell level higher than his intelligence score -10. He pays 1⁄2 the price of the potion in materials before brewing it. He must also spend 1 artifice point per spell level of the potion when creating it, and roll a disable device check equivalent to the spellcraft DC required to brew it (including the +5 to the DC for not possessing the required spell). Potions invented this way are unstable and do not last long. After a number of rounds equal to the engineer’s level, the draft goes unstable and may become unpredictably explosive of toxic.

Speedy Construction (Quick Inventing) [Gadget]
Prerequisite: Artifice Pool, Gadgeteer/Magical Talent
Engineer may create an item with the Inventor ability as a standard action instead of a full-round action. If making Gadgets on the pre-existing list, it only takes a half hour. This requires two Artifice Pool Points

Modify Automaton [Gadget]
Prerequisite: Artifice Pool, Automaton Class Feature
Benefit: The engineer can modify his automaton’s upgrades. By taking a full day to work on the automaton, he can re-assign a number of upgrades equal to half his intelligence modifier. This requires spending an equal number of Artifice Pool Points.

Additional Clockwork Companion [Gadget] (per the Druid feat Additional Animal Companion)
Prerequisite: Cha 13, Automaton class feature
Benefit: You gain an additional clockwork companion. Your effective engineer level for the purposes of the second companion is your normal level -3.

Möbius Tool [Gadget]
Prerequisite: Artifice Pool, Omnitool
Benefit: You may add ONE power from the Tek-Warrior's Möbius Weapon list to your OmniTool. This feat may not be taken more than once. Conversely, Tek-Warriors who take this may add ONE Function from the list for use with (and through) their Möbius Weapon.

Extra Upgrade [Gadget]
Prerequisite: Artifice Pool, Automaton/Singularity class feature
Benefit: You may add ONE additional upgrade to your Automaton, or yourself. If you are applying this to yourself, this requires you to permanently dedicate 2 Artifice Pool points. You may reclaim them if you wish to destroy/undo said upgrade. It will take one week until they are fully recovered.
Uses for your Automaton stack. Uses for yourself do not.

Darkfire142 - Can you list where to find said resources? I know about NeoExodus but I would be interested to see this class from the World of Aden and the Master class.

Were they mechanically or thematically better than the thread above? If you're just trolling that's fine but I actually would like to read more genuine feedback or suggestions on the OP's work (or my suggestions, for that matter).

If nothing else, it would help to have points of reference to the works you name, or even a fair comparison and contrast.

Had a supplemental thought
Had another thought that may help this a bit when it comes to build modularity / versatility.
Perhaps my proposed desires may be addressed by this fix below. Replace instances of these abilities with the phrase "Bonus Gadget Feat" for the corresponding levels. (I believe 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th). Extra Function and Extra Artifice Pool should also have the [Gadget] identifier. I've rewritten Extra Upgrade below. The following feats also encompass the powers left out from 3.1 to more recent builds, as well as to some extent the ones that have replaced them. (You may even wish to have them add an ancillary benefit of +1 Artifice pool point). So for clarity's sake, the old name of these class powers in in parenthesis next to the Feat name.

Budget Construction (Cheap Inventions) [Gadget]:
Prerequisite: Artifice Pool, one other Gadget Feat
The engineers understanding of real-world application through expands extensive work and jury rigging with his constructs. Thus he only needs to pay 1⁄2 as much to create items with their inventor special ability (1⁄4 the price of mundane items or potions, and 1/8 the price of wondrous items). Whenever he does this, he must spend 1 point from his artifice pool

Inventor Extraordinaire (Inventor) [Gadget]
Prerequisite: Artifice Pool, 4th Level
An engineer brings a new meaning to “jury-rigging” by throwing together some spare parts. As a full-round action, the engineer can create any non-magical item worth 10 gp per class level or less by piecing together spare parts and chemicals. To do this, he must immediately spend gp equal to 1⁄2 the price of the item created to represent the materials needed. He must also make a disable device check with a DC equal to the crafting DC required to make the item. If he fails the check, the item is destroyed and he does not gain its use.

Items invented this way are unstable and do not last long. After a number of rounds equal to the engineer’s level, the item crumbles and is destroyed. Weapons created in this way (including alchemical thrown items) are weak and poorly-made and are immediately destroyed if the user rolls a 1 on an attack roll with the weapon.

There is no price limit on wondrous items, but he cannot create a wondrous item with a caster level higher than his class level. In addition, an invented wondrous item cannot have a spell level higher than his intelligence score -10. He still pays 1 ⁄ 4 the price of a wondrous item upon inventing it. He must also spend 1 artifice point per spell level of the item when creating the item, and the disable device DC is equivalent to the spellcraft DC required to create the item (including the +5 to the DC for not possessing the required spell).

Homebrewer Extraordinaire (Inventor - Potion Creation) [Gadget]
Prerequisite: Artifice Pool, 4th Level
The engineer has dabbled in enough chemistry to pick up potion-craft. Perhaps this is enhanced by his love of a cool pint after a hard day in the lab. As a full-round action, he brews potions by imparting some of his quasi-magical energy into the scrap and chemicals as he concocts and ferments them (this is instead a supernatural ability). To do this, he must immediately spend gp equal to 1⁄2 the price of the item created to represent the materials needed. He must also make a disable device check with a DC equal to the crafting DC required to make the potion. If he fails the check, the brew is destroyed and he does not gain its use. There is no price limit on invented 'brews but he cannot create a potion with a caster level higher than his class level. In addition, an invented potion cannot have a spell level higher than his intelligence score -10. He pays 1⁄2 the price of the potion in materials before brewing it. He must also spend 1 artifice point per spell level of the potion when creating it, and roll a disable device check equivalent to the spellcraft DC required to brew it (including the +5 to the DC for not possessing the required spell). Potions invented this way are unstable and do not last long. After a number of rounds equal to the engineer’s level, the draft goes unstable and may become unpredictably explosive of toxic.

Speedy Construction (Quick Inventing) [Gadget]
Prerequisite: Artifice Pool, Gadgeteer/Magical Talent
Engineer may create an item with the Inventor ability as a standard action instead of a full-round action. If making Gadgets on the pre-existing list, it only takes a half hour. This requires two Artifice Pool Points

Modify Automaton [Gadget]
Prerequisite: Artifice Pool, Automaton Class Feature
Benefit: The engineer can modify his automaton’s upgrades. By taking a full day to work on the automaton, he can re-assign a number of upgrades equal to half his intelligence modifier. This requires spending an equal number of Artifice Pool Points.

Additional Clockwork Companion [Gadget] (per the Druid feat Additional Animal Companion)
Prerequisite: Cha 13, Automaton class feature
Benefit: You gain an additional clockwork companion. Your effective engineer level for the purposes of the second companion is your normal level -3.

Möbius Tool [Gadget]
Prerequisite: Artifice Pool, Omnitool
Benefit: You may add ONE power from the Tek-Warrior's Möbius Weapon list to your OmniTool. This feat may not be taken more than once. Conversely, Tek-Warriors who take this may add ONE Function from the list for use with (and through) their Möbius Weapon.

Extra Upgrade [Gadget]
Prerequisite: Artifice Pool, Automaton/Singularity class feature
Benefit: You may add ONE additional upgrade to your Automaton, or yourself. If you are applying this to yourself, this requires you to permanently dedicate 2 Artifice Pool points. You may reclaim them if you wish to destroy/undo said upgrade. It will take one week until they are fully recovered.
Uses for your Automaton stack. Uses for yourself do not.

I truly love your work on Engineer and Wardens. (Reposting here as I did on the 3.1 Engineer thread as it's pertinent to that and the latest build)

Gotta say, of all the versions of Engineer, I truly loved 3.1 best. Fast Gadgets and all that are cool, but they are nothing compared to the scope and flexibility of Inventor, Cheap Inventions and Quick-Inventing. That really hits the stride of the build and class objectives (IMHO) far better than some of the iterations.

That being said I LOVE the revisions to constructs (and the gadgets ARE cool to see fleshed out to the further extent you did). The archetypes in 4.0 - 4.3 were unexpected icing on the cake.

Perchance do you have an assembled design journal? I checked your listed website and it just didn't have even as many of the versions as you've posted here, let alone the logic behind it (I've combed all your posts to try and get a handle on the whys and wherefores of some of the choices).

I'm currently promoting this to my GM for a campaign where I was using a technology-obsessed mage. 3.1 far better hits the mark than any of the other work I've seen out there including Eberron's artificer conversions.

Especially with your 4.3 archetypes and powers.

Is there a way you can explain your choice re: Inventor, Cheap Inventions and Quick-Inventing vs. the Gadgets in later versions? They just seem ... awfully limiting and humdrum compared to being able to mechanically justify spell effects as scientific inventions. As an "and" I find them cool, but as an "Or" I gotta say the luster really rubs off a bit.

In any case, thank you very, very much for the quality work! It is most appreciated.

Gotta say, of all the versions of the class, I truly love this one best. Fast Gadgets and all that are cool, but they are nothing compared to the scope and flexibility of Inventor, Cheap Inventions and Quick-Inventing. That really hits the stride of the build and class objectives (IMHO) far better than some of the iterations.

That being said I LOVE the revisions to constructs (and the gadgets ARE cool to see fleshed out to the further extent you did). The archetypes in 4.0 - 4.3 were unexpected icing on the cake.

Perchance do you have an assembled design journal? I checked your listed website and it just didn't have even as many of the versions as you've posted here, let alone the logic behind it (I've combed all your posts to try and get a handle on the whys and wherefores of some of the choices).

I'm currently promoting this to my GM for a campaign where I was using a technology-obsessed mage. 3.1 far better hits the mark than any of the other work I've seen out there including Eberron's artificer conversions.

Especially with your 4.3 archetypes and powers.

Is there a way you can explain your choice re: Inventor, Cheap Inventions and Quick-Inventing vs. the Gadgets in later versions? They just seem ... awfully limiting and humdrum compared to being able to mechanically justify spell effects as scientific inventions. As an "and" I find them cool, but as an "Or" I gotta say the luster really rubs off a bit. Was it a balance issue? The gadgets are cool ... but if that's -all- they can do and futzing with the construct then I kinda have to wonder why the degree of versatility was traded off for what seem to be -very- specific choices.
As a suggestion, perhaps a more "generalist" build with the base-class and make the direction that I've seen from 4.0 to 4.3 be more "specific focus" archetype on the OmniTool and Construct? Just my two pence worth.

In any case, thank you very, very much for the quality work! It is most appreciated.

Found the following:

Gun Magus homebrew

Finally, this homebrewer has created a Gun Magus archetype that might be worth considering, if you’re allowed homebrew. The ability to “shoot spells” is still quite limited, again falling quite short of what the Arcane Archer can do, but you get grit, deeds, and spells. Furthermore, ErrantX is one of the best d20 System designers out there right now: his homebrew has long been widely regarded as some of the best out there, his long-running homebrew PrC competitions have been wildly popular and have produced some incredible work, and he currently is a professional RPG author for Dreamscarred Press, hired as the Lead Developer of their forthcoming Path of War supplement. If you’re unfamiliar, Dreamscarred Press is responsible for Pathfinder’s psionics system, and are, themselves, extremely well thought of. ... They certainly have superior design skills."

The source link:

The Gun Magus Archetype
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215730

Gotta say, ran my 7th/6th Gun Magus/Gunslinger (Pistoleer) through Tomb of Horrors in my local group's game yesterday and it was MAGICAL. The combination of Gish with Grit was nothing short of awe-inspiring.

There's some extra bells and whistles with that because the character has a rich history but the point being, the Archetype, when applied to Magus is SOUND. Almost a perfect conversion of -everything- I wanted for my old Gun Mage character from Iron Kingdoms d20.

I am also perusing your work Black Kestrel and can I just say, "Thank you" for taking the initiative!

:)

I would like to invite all participants on this thread to a private-group on FaceBook where I am developing this and other ideas for my gaming blog.

For those interested, please click on the following link and identify yourselves with a FB chat to me. I am the group's only Admin listed.

As this is a development ground for future blogging and gaming products, certain common courtesy and common sense rules apply. Please identify yourself in a chat message or PM to me with your forum handle.

If you are interested, please go -here-.

You can also follow progress at http://www.steam-funk.com
For those of you who may be still interested in this product. Please contact me directly. I intend to be playtesting at ConnectiCon and TempleCon in the near future, once the product leaves R&D.

I am seeking input, playtesters and designers at this juncture.

As an addendum:
I have begun a private Facebook group that will be a 'testing ground'/open forum for a number of my gaming ideas including a further development and solicitation of input on this project. If any of the extremely helpful people who've commented on or followed this thread would like to come forwards and join it, I would be most delighted to accept your application to provide further feedback as this product continues to evolve.

Please identify yourself by chatting me with your handle from this thread when you do so.

Thanks & Regards.

My Closed-Group Discussion on FaceBook as Fodder for my 'Blog

I have more to offer and will return with that in time.

On a more philosophical/esoteric note, how many people picked up that D&D Chainmail game back when 3.0 launched? It came with an in-depth breakdown (not an actual splat book, in depth for a pamphlet) on an alternate continent on the other side of the world of Flanaess.

Imagine if you fast forwarded timeline with the two engaging like say ... WWI style. Interesting, no? Or in a Napoleonic Era Conflict? I guarantee the 80 Year's War or European Meddling in North American Civil-War politics, recast with the nations and societies in question could be INTENSELY interesting immersive, especially for non-history buffs trying to make sense of the chaos within the context of the setting.

My 2 pence worth, for now. More forthcoming later.

I am intrigued by the premise. I will check bak in time when I have more mental energy to devote to the task at hand. This community is typically extremely helpful and forthcoming.

I found some various sources of input i found, through cruising around intensely insightful on some issues that troubled me with my Vedic Indian/Rajpunk offering.

My advice? Do not be shy. If there are specific threads/topics where you see something intersecting, (say, Item creation or Elder Scrolls/SAGA fan threads?) feel free to read and evaluate some of the other posters. Then link back to this thread and ask them for assistance. The more affable ones will certainly take you up on your offer.

I think there are some good tips available in Velcro Zipper's very detailed campaign journal:

Velcro Zipper presents AEG's - The World's Largest Dungeon!

For instance, I think he made some of the monster tribes more amenable to co-operating with the PCs, which removes some of the "us vs. everything else" problem.

Thanks for the plug, Balthzar. That was super-keen.

I was just going to humbly suggest Magnu123 check out my journal. I've interspersed the journal entries with explanations for how I've managed some of the intricacies of the Dungeon and tried to offer some helpful advice for GMs who give it a shot. Page 5 has a Region-by-Region breakdown of some of the things I've done with the areas visited by my party. Your group or style might not mesh with what I've done, but I hope you'll find some it useful.

The WLD does have its share of flaws. The maps aren't always right and there a ton of typos and grammatical errors so make sure you read ahead and give yourself plenty of time to patch any holes you find.

Thanks guys. Was cruising and saw this thread, and have my own copy of WLD and WLC. Will definitely be checking that journal out when I get a chance, having flipped through WLD and having had some concerns ...

VERY cool to have an offering for others in the community on running this/handling its idiosyncracies! I will be sure to plug it as well!

I don't any more and haven't for some time, but was a die-hard holdout in my day. Up to, and inclusive of buying the new edition settings adventures and modules, and hard-backwards converting on-the-fly.

This of course presented a host of problems and issues, but I did my best to modify them with an altered and fluctuating series of formulae for sake of ease. Let me see if I can dig up my notes and get back to you on this, as it would probably be helpful for you to convert newer modules and NPC's/Monsters, but also as an exercise in my priding myself in my organization.

I will try and check back in a week after having gone-through my items of import. *leaves this message as a placeholder so that he can find this thread again, as a trail of breadcrumbs*

I've never understood the RAW guys -- the system & mechanics guys; I must admit.

I remember about 5 or 6 years ago, before WotC cancelled the mags and came out with their new game, we were having a Thread like this and I said emphatically that the system -- the rules -- are completely meaningless. It's all about the game -- the Fluff.

I was surprised to find others, namely Sebastion, say that the game style -- the Fluff -- are completely meaningless to them. That it's wholly the mechanics and the system.

....D&D, high fantasy swords & sorcery -- the Fluff; the style -- that's all I know.

And the specific rules or mechanics, whether published in a different edition or Houseruled, are meaningless to me.
It's all D&D to me.

I salute the premise of the post, and I wish it was something I could 100% agree with.

However with changes in the rules, often has come BUTCHERY OF THE FLUFF.
I invite you to look at the inconsistencies between 2nd-->3rd and 3rd---->4th. Let alone the frankensteinian nightmare that was the OD&D----> 1st Edition Advanced--->2nd shoe-horning the D&D "Known World" into the Mystara campaign setting.

Daughters Got Rewritten as Lovers (See the Elahdrin->Queen Morwel) and Entire swaths of racial fluff (the Dwarves especially) got entirely rewritten or abandoned. These were not small changes nor minute in number. Some times there were attempts to explain them in retcon

(Vecna reordering the Cosmos in Die Vecna Die!) or sometimes it was just arbitrary, based on design or corporate decisions. (I happened to work for WotC during the 3rd launch and while I was not part of R&D by any means, being retail, as with any company there is chatter and in-house speculation).

In short, the very thing that makes it "ALL D&D" for you, to me they butchered like a Tarantino Slasher-film's victims. Messy, and with extremely poor taste.

I salute your love of the fluff, and am well aware my feelings on the matter put me "outside the majority" who are largely indifferent to these things. But as one who can appreciate this, like a fellow wine connoisseur, surely you can taste the creep of bitterness in the vintage?

"The Ravenloft 3.5 is exquisite, and respectful of and if anything ENHANCED from those older than it, but say, the Forgotten Realms 4.0 is a far, far cry from a bastard child of its predecessors"

Tony Diterlizzi and Todd Lockwood, hands down. Larry Elmore will always have a special place in my heart as well for his gorgeous Dragonlance Illustrations.

*picking them up now via online sales*
I've been hunting these for a cheaper rate for a while and finally found them! Can't wait to check them out!

That is a list containing a lot of good books that I have.

These are good for getting roleplaying of alignment to be really good and offers some really good options and insight into good and evil.
Book of Vile Darkness
Book of Exalted Deeds

The Complete series offers loads of player and some GM options, but the content became more broken as time went on. These are the least broken ones
Complete Arcane
Complete Adventurer
Complete Warrior
Complete Divine

The Races of series offers some really great racial options, from feats racial subs, and information on their covered races.

The Fiendish Codexs are gold for covering evil outsiders, but offer few player options, but some sweet GM stuff.

Frostburn, and Sandstorm to a unknown extent on Stormwrack
Cityscape. They are good if you want some really nice rules on specific environments, and nicely themed character options, items, magic, and bestiaries.

The Miniatures Handbook is great if you want mass combat rules with getting the kingmaker AP, it does contain player options though I recall some are crazy broken, A bestiary and some other stuff.

Well said. Succinctly put, too. The BoVD and the BoED also get widely panned for the same reasons you critique the Miniatures Handbook, but for many reasons add a lot of good context and flavor. If used, like strong colors on a painting with a *feather light* touch, can provide some excellent artistic poignance and flavor.

If you have the money, then pick them ALL up.

...Truth!

*Absolutely CANNOT RESIST*
Not necro-posting or taking any satisfaction in this, but I genuinely want to hear what people have to say in light of current events, given how prophetic ALOT of this topic's discussion was (there were even references to a PHB I, II, III, etc…. which 4th edition then did!)

Now on a certain level, I could care less, practically. I have very little time to game these days, (started my own multimedia production company, working on our own products and writings, etc) but still religiously ascribe to and purchase Paizo products. I purchase old 3.5 supplements out of a need to collect and store that knowledge some place safe, despite having taken my entire RPG bookshelf digital a while ago. (Something about the feel of fluttering pages and the satisfying-but-quiet creak of careworn binding….)

But I found A LOT of what I an others had to say EXTREMELY foreshadowing of current events.
I want D&D as a brand to succeed and survive. I think it would be tragic to see it fall or fail. I think there is a symbiosis at this point with independent publishers ilke Paizo, and I do hope that Wizards is able to successfully reboot their franchise and truly *listens* to their many generations of fans, not just a single demographic or wave of them.

The New York Times' recent article' on Wizards/Hasbro's new push to solicit *gasp* ACTUAL INPUT from its disenfranchised customers/former customers in the crafting of 5th edition, and failing sales

An Independent Blogger's analysis of D&D as a failing business model

An independent RPG Publisher's site with some SPOOKY predictions back on July 30th, 2009

Thoughts, folks?

I have been dusting off this property for a revamp and 'expansion' as well as advancing the timeline towards incorporating a post-industrial revolution "steampunk" feel.

Please stay tuned to my nascent production company's facebook fan page for future details on the evolution of this product.

Here it is! Please feel free to click and 'like'!!!

Well, I have definitely got an update.
The Campaign (at least for the current story-arch) had its final session yesterday. This was a 9 hour event with an additional 6-7 hours of pregame preparatory time for myself and a couple other players, which was the culmination of a 3-year long plot-line that was begun back in 2007.

Originally the "arch" was supposed to be a quick, 6 month long endeavor on the outside. However various schedule conflicts, player attrition and requisite "reboot" as well as a HOST of user-generated plot expanded it outwards continually until it just became a BEHEMOTH of converging plot-lines.

Many of the ideas I had for a separate campaign entirely (Eberron-Ptolus) and a sequel became incorporated in to the primary.

Future development remains on the horizon and an opportunity for surviving characters to utilize an "alternate" playstyle given the highly epic adaptive level-of-play at 30th+ level. I am considering "altering" the Arabian Nights board game and incorporating it for a Birthright-style series of "Nation Turns" with epic characters utilizing armies and lesser (read new characters or players) agents in order to deal with the more profound ramifications and further expand the setting.

I have fallen -hideously- behind in my transcription duties from the session recordings, and am contemplating outsourcing it, as my last recorded transcription ended at session 7 about a year or two ago. We ended last night with Session 50.

I remain optimistic that many if not all of the players will return for the above "Epilogue Wrap-up" and may even join me for a tournament-play level event at Connecticon, wherein I can invite a more "cinematic" take on things, complete with fleshed out armies from Leadership, Epic Leadership and Rulership feats having been taken. This would allow each of the surviving characters, now divided or representing different "factions" to groom new sets of champions from entire parties or regiments of potential newcomers.

I do not anticipate my temporary hiatus to last more than til this July/August with some errant preparatory work in the meantime so I will be able to offer this "tournament level" style of play during the convention.

The Final Encounter involved a variety of plot points including Juggernauts/Walkers from Sanskrit Myth being revealed in an Exalted/DragonMech-esque way, as well as the true nature of the Akashic Record, links between the Aryan Races of India and Norse/Germanic Origins and their mythos, and the purpose/evolution of Dragons in my setting and the relationship between them and the Naga Dynasty that ruled, as seen through the eyes of Nagarajjaiah Orochia, the last Naga Empress. The conflict expanded to include Moonfolk-Fae, their connections to the Spirit World, and the invasion of 5 major LoveCraftian Mythos "Outer Gods" leading factions of followers and cults and hordes of Aberrations which seek to invade the setting.

"The Fist of the Void" descends from the Far Realm, impacting the moon and carrying with it hordes and hordes of Aberrant Semidivine "Great Beasts", along with fleets of Fey Ships from the MoonFolk Army, and their previously enslaved cousins of the Gith-Sharai. The Incursion begins, with 7 Armies assembled outside of AgniKai peak, warring for dominance and refuge (The Dwarves, the Asura, the Devas, the Naga/Yuan Ti, the Rakshasa/Fey and their deviant experiments, the former Catfolk/"Bhageera" who become what bastardization is known as D&D Rakshasa and finally the Human Rajahs, along withe invading host of Hordesmen) as the Setting is infiltrated from Above, from Below, and Within, with coastal attacks of Deep One Cults lead by Aboleths and Beholders governing scores of Sahaugin, Kuo Toa, Yuan Ti Aberrations and Tritons.

The Cephalocalypse has begun, in the background of a Xeno-Evolutionary Insurrection.
Meanwhile, in the Depths of Agna-kai Peak, the 5 Xeno-Avatars (Lovecraftian Entities) have Taken Form and Begin to Empower their generals, unopposed by any save the Party. Sacrifice and Bitter Combat ensues, with Brother Fighting Brother, Father and Daughter Fighting Wife and Mother, for the sake of not just this world, but Creation itself. All this, as the Gossamer Curtain (the Veil that hides this setting in "DreamTime" from the rest of the "world" or worlds . . . (picture it as the pseudo Indian Region of Forgotten Realms, or your own setting of choice, for example) tears and as such, the setting returns to real-time as a demiplane collides with it and overlays with the 'realm, thus making the mystical barrier visible as the setting joins the existing world in "RealTime".

This paves the way for future invasion(s) by my own adapted versions of Temüjin and Tamerlane with intent of conquest and dominance, but also to enforce a better stability and infrastructure . . . But those are tales for another Chronicle.

I will attempt to get it all down on paper at some point, as an adaption of this is fuel for an attempted book or published campaign setting. But a brief "reader's digest" version will be loaded up here in timeline form or as a campaign anecdotal journal, much in the style of my previous summaries.

Hopefully I will see some of you interested parties at ConnectiCon 2010.

Hi there,
My order lists this in my download assets, but when I finish the zip file and attempt to enter/extract it, it is empty.

Please assist!

Thanks!

Dario,
Thank you again for your fantastic offerings in the d20 'verse and for giving a free download of conversion tips for PFRPG.

I have been using much of your mechanics and creating/converting vestiges to my Vedic-Indian setting. As such, we are 'upgrading' our game to PFRPG rules and I have found it a relief that your content is largely unchanged. The suggestions provided should definitely forestall any snags and provides me a metric to go by for converting the original Tome of Magic data as well.

I will be posting updates in my campaign thread, including the various vestiges employed and those that have been "re-fluffed" for a Vedic Fantasy background. Secrets and Villains of Pact Magic have become unexpectedly two of the most often resourced books used in my game, and due to certain flaws taken, a failed/botched binding check of a hugely powerful spirit has had dramatic effects on my settings' plotline.

Here is the Campaign Journal I am working off of, which will be updated shortly to encompass far more data

Thanks again for your quality work!

Wow... did I scare everyone off? Feel free to post responses gang ... I won't bite, I swear!

A Further update on the Campaign.
Am losing one player and regaining another. It's a challenge considering the scenario of "Revolving Door Attendance" rears its ugly head anew, but there it is. I am choosing to see this as an opportunity as opposed to the intensely aggravating disservice to myself and the endeavor that it obviously is.

To whit, I am in the market for another player. So if you are in the White Plains, NY or Southwestern CT area (Stamford, Greenwich, Norwalk) and have an interest in what you have read here, please please do not hesitate to contact me. I am in the market for a player who is not going to be a recurring problem or "Suddenly MIA" when it comes to a weekly commitment. Please contact me at the following thread:

A Separate Thread I have Made as to avoid clutter here

VedicDragon wrote:

Please see the attached link for background

I will be posting more separately here. Am looking for mature, motivated individuals in my local area who can respect time commitments and the fact that all participants are sacrificing EXTREMELY limited spare time for this endeavor.

There will be an interview and rigorous vetting process, as I/we are not looking to waste time with individuals that do not meet certain standards of mature appreciation and "common sense" for scheduling and contact.

Game runs on a weekly basis.

Please email me at Monsoon.Rush@yahoo.com if interested.

Anyone?? Bueller? Ferris Bueller?

I found the original request archived. Please forgive the breach of forum etiquette in reposting, but am going to clarify my needs as a fresh request.

I am in need of an experienced player who can make and keep a mature time commitment and is reasonably "together" so life issues do not suddenly sandbag their involvement.

East Asian studies or a background in Nonstereotypical Asian Cultures (aka skipping the Japanese "Spaghetti Samurai" chic for an actual depth-of-knowledge) would be recommended but is not required. A desire to learn, a basic rudimentary understanding of the region, a flexibility of mind and a rigidity of honoring one's commitments is what I am looking for.

I will be having "interviews" with local players over the next two weeks, and hopefully have the new prospect(s) integrated by the third, at the absolute latest. This campaign (in this incarnation anyways) is anticipated to run until Christmas '09.

I am hopefully expecting to hear from gainfully employed individuals whose "life issues" are not going to become my problems.

Please see the attached link for background

I will be posting more separately here. Am looking for mature, motivated individuals in my local area who can respect time commitments and the fact that all participants are sacrificing EXTREMELY limited spare time for this endeavor.

There will be an interview and rigorous vetting process, as I/we are not looking to waste time with individuals that do not meet certain standards of mature appreciation and "common sense" for scheduling and contact.

Game runs on a weekly basis.

Please email me at Monsoon.Rush@yahoo.com if interested.

Anyone?? Bueller? Ferris Bueller?

I found the original request archived. Please forgive the breach of forum etiquette in reposting, but am going to clarify my needs as a fresh request.

I am in need of an experienced player who can make and keep a mature time commitment and is reasonably "together" so life issues do not suddenly sandbag their involvement.

East Asian studies or a background in Nonstereotypical Asian Cultures (aka skipping the Japanese "Spaghetti Samurai" chic for an actual depth-of-knowledge) would be recommended but is not required. A desire to learn, a basic rudimentary understanding of the region, a flexibility of mind and a rigidity of honoring one's commitments is what I am looking for.

Fair enough et al (since my last topical post). That definitely shines a multidimensional light of perspective on the rigorous design process.

This is definitely fodder for more discussion and brainstorming as opposed to debate. In the interest of continuing the hypothetical "What should they have?" that was posed by CourtFool, I propose the following question / scenario as a challenge:

If the stated goal of a popular RPG Publisher was to revise their rules / put out a new edition while maintaining and retaining their current market by not invalidating the previously purchased and epic in proportion back-catalog, how would you do it?

What are several possibilities on how to accomplish this with minimum of product devision and confusion?

One suggestion I recall off-the-bat is dual system printings. It truly DID work in l5r/L5R d20 and Dragonlance 25th anniversary chronicles, with 2nd Edition and SAGA rules.

VedicDragon wrote:

Ahh but I "came in" on 2E and bought at discount through resale most of my 3.5 library after skipping 3.0 ... damn you got me there. Hell I'm even guilty with Pathfinder ... waitaminute! *catches you in a logical fallacy of "tum quotum" directed at Paizo*

And what about all those simple, lawn loitering n00bs who are "coming in" on 4e? Why is your first gaming experience more valid than theirs?

I do not think Paizo would even mind me saying it. They have a great product and they know it. They found a consumer market and they are providing something that market obviously wants. Considering 4e is selling, I would argue WotC did the same thing.

That was not an actual debate point per se, so much as me engaging in whimsical frippery based on your on tongue in cheek delivery.

*he says, tongue-in-cheek*

The board appropriate response is to punt me, but at least you were more creative. ;)

Hey, I managed to fit in a plug "Kill Doctor Lucky ... and his Little Dog Too" reference. It was too juicy an opportunity to pass up.

VedicDragon wrote:

Or, conversely, what we can do instead that would be more productive than "just ignore it" or "Don't bother getting upset"

Stop buying their re-imaged products.

If you bought 2e, you are guilty.

If you bought 3e, you are guilty.

If you bought 3.5, you are doubly guilty.

If you buy Pathfinder...oops. :)

Ahh but I "came in" on 2E and bought at discount through resale most of my 3.5 library after skipping 3.0 ... damn you got me there. Hell I'm even guilty with Pathfinder ... waitaminute! *catches you in a logical fallacy of "tum quotum" directed at Paizo*

Muaha! Got you, you cunning time-travelling helter skeltering eloquent malcontent poodle!!

Now to get that Feckless Doctor Lucky, since I got his "little dog" .... *rubs hands together evilly whilst slicing the rope that holds a chandelier which knocks over a dining cart which flings a knife which skewers you in a sufficiently epic Rube Goldberg-esque fashion with the biting acerbic slash of cruel, fickle logic*

Oh, I understand the frustration of marketting. I've drawn the ire of the local powers that be by being critical of some of their marketting.

Still, what I am getting from you is that you don't view the current edition as really "D&D". That it doesn't have the same cows (though some of those weren't even heifers in earlier editions) or feel or whatever.

Let me stop you right there.

1.) World of Darkness
2.) Traveller

And to a lesser extant ...

3.) Forgotten Realms (specifically) - Just how many times can you blow up this world and screw things up worse than before??
4.) Legend of the Five Rings (who's bidding for the Throne now? Which clan is the treasonous b@st@rds this week?)
5.) Exalted - Hearth stones ARE important. Hearth stones are irrelevent. Here's 1000% MORE Content that is INFINITELY more important than what the focus of the game was previously. Good look smoothly incorporating it into any ongoing chronicles.

The POINT is the PHILOSOPHY on why we as a market tolerate this, and if we don't how we can encourage more sensitivity from the companies we pay for goods and services. Or, conversely, what we can do instead that would be more productive than "just ignore it" or "Don't bother getting upset"

Please don't be offended that I ignore your list. It's not that it isn't topical, but I fear it once again focusses on the minutiae of -one- specific example. I would rather debate why should a product be redesigned according to the (naturally, not an insult) shallow perspective of those WHO'VE NEVER PICKED IT UP AND READ IT BEFORE. And how counterintuitively backwards a thought process / paradigm that is for R&D.

Pax Veritas wrote:

VedicDragon wrote:

If you are going to generate a re-invention of fantasy gaming which is almost a breed apart from your previous version, perhaps your should retitle it and allow your product to continue.

Well said.

Totally on board with this idea. You know if they simply reprinted 1e/2e I would buy a copy of every book, heck they could remove the risk of loss and allow a third party to reprint the old edition recieving a per sold book fee back, sort of how microsoft did with IBM all those years ago. They don't sell the rights to this third party they sell the right to print X copies to them.

Or how Nintendo / Sony / Microsoft allow you to buy the old games on their next-gen consoles as downloads!

WHY do they (generic RPG companies with new editions, Wizards, White Wolf, FASA, AEG for L5R) not -seize- upon this as a revenue stream I do not understand ... it's so simple!

I might suggest if the way you decide to defend your choice of system is to attack another system, you are falling into the trap many have said that WotC has done when discussing older editions. You are acting exactly the same way. Pooping on others for not seeing things your way. Now I know that some people feel it is ok for them to do it because either (a) it is payback for how they feel they were treated or (b) their goals are more noble, WotC being an BBEC (big bad evil corporation) only cares about money while the other people care about being "true" to the "game".

*clears his entire drafted post as this and Mod intervention by Joshua J. Frost handled a cooperative, mutually destructive thread-hijack in the making*

Thank you both. *sighs in relief*

Really, people (and companies) should be promoting what is great about their system, and not continuously rag on other systems. Of course there are going to be comparisons made, that is only reasonable, but in the end of the day, if you have said more about why the other system sucks than you have about why your system rocks, I feel you've failed in the discussion.

Ok ... I am going to pick up this baton in another thread (lest the purpose of this one gets hijacked) with a post titled "Things I LOVED about, 1st, 2nd, 3rd/3.5 and Fourth Edition as well as Pathfinder".

Back to marketing, let's face facts, name recognition is invaluable. For most people, they know the name D&D. And for younger folks, that is the game they are going to grab first. Merely because that is something they have heard about.

Agreed, but don't you find that inherently reprehensible as it supports a mentality of "We will market as best we can, and alter our design methodology and logos to make true the lie"? STRICTLY philosophically there. And no, I am not so naieve that Marketting being unethical and disingenuous is surprising to me, but the Nature and Degree of that deception and how much impact it should have on the intellectual property/product as a whole.

Removed a post.

If you have a problem with a poster's assertion, then discuss the assertion. But,

AT NO TIME SHOULD YOU ATTACK THE POSTER, YOUR PERCEPTION OF THE POSTER'S ABILITY TO FRAME AN ARGUMENT, OR FINISH A POST WITH THE PHRASE "READ IT FAST, BECAUSE IT'S NOT GOING TO BE HERE LONG."

This thread is on its last leg, folks. Cool it.

May I respectfully Request that I resurrect it with repostings of the productive, non-forum policy violating posts that stay true to the topic? I will copy and paste everything now and prune it like a bonsai sapling.

Would that be acceptable? I would like to think the ideal I was shooting for and the nature of the topic should -not- have caused the spiral of decay that has unfairly and surreptitiously engulfed my attempts at a "Meeting of Viewpoints" on the Topic.

In a perfect world, that would be unnecessary, because we wouldn't break out our 'best behavior' just for Moderators, but treat all of our fellow posters with a modicum of respect.

And, yanno, not call each other haters or fanboys.
Also, there would be naptime and chocolate milk for everyone!

I want Naptime and Chocolate Milk ... :P

VedicDragon wrote:

The Subscription based model…

I think they are trying to ease into it with DDI.

VedicDragon wrote:

Make a TRULY IMMERSIVE MMORPG to Pen and Paper fusion…

I seem to recall they were trying. What is the status of the virtual table top anyway? Did they completely scrap it?

I was speaking more to the point of FUSING it with Neverwinter Nights, instead of flooding the Market with Halfhazard D&D Video Games that offer more promise than they realize, focus on making ONE TRULY immersive D&D client that expands into the virtual table top endeavor.

VedicDragon wrote:

Acquire Ral Partha…

(laughing) You are honestly suggesting they go after licenses you personally like? They were tender footing around it because…

1. Going hole hog is a huge risk.
2. What about all the fans they would alienate by creating a tactical war game out of their role playing? People already complain (loudly) with what they did do.

Hardly. I am simply providing ideas for how they could mine their existing paradigm competently, with what's I propose would work. If they were going to redesign the game to be more miniature inclusive, I am providing the strategy to do so per your "time machine" premise without massively rewriting the game. Promote the miniatures game, but that requires -COMMITTING- to the endeavor. Or they could "outsource" it with a partnership as they used to have with Paizo for Dungeon and Dragon magazine.

VedicDragon wrote:

Acquire some of the 3rd party publishers

And become even more big and bloated? Has that strategy endeared people to Microsoft? We could argue over the profitability. I can hear the fans screaming, "Why are they putting out another Freeport supplement? I want Greyhawk! Tools!"

No, I am speaking of targetting and hiring / acquiring properties that prove to be their most competitive and extremely profitable "rivals" due to high quality content. In short, hire the obvious talent in the field. Heck, they could have accomplished so much more by just doing this twice.

VedicDragon wrote:

Dragonlance Movie Trilogy

O.k. Now I know you are not taking me seriously.

Quite the Contrary. With both of those I mentioned, they would provide a fictional element of promoting their product in the mainstream. WITH that in mind, obviously don't make the abomination that was the first D&D movie. It would require some serious $$$ but the returns would be marvelous IF IT IS IMPLEMENTED RIGHT. Not as an overbudgetted B-Movie, but a serious cinematic endeavor.

VedicDragon wrote:

Incremental Dungeons

Huh?

For Instance ... Undermountain .. Undermountain the Lost Levels 1 & 2, Undermountain 3: StarDock.

Incrementally expanding dungeons. Make the "Expedition To" Series more like "Return to Keep on the Borderlands / White Plume Mountain / Tomb of Horrors" with actual plot based on "returning" to classic locations years later. Hence, as I said "Incremental Dungeons".

War-based "Campaigns"

I think they -could-. There are plenty of products that -CAN- appeal if marketted correctly or just done -WELL-.

Forgotten Realms made the $$ back in the day and now because it is MARKETTED. Comics, Novels, Video Games, etc.

But the consumer has proven that a profitable strategy. I remember just as much anger over 3.5, yet, it still managed to sell. Of course they want to burn through gamer dollars! What company last long by not trying to get money from its customers?

There's trying to get money, and there's burning the candle at both ends for the quick buck. If they are going to insist on the Software comparison with 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5 (C'mon ... you CAN'T not see that one coming) they should post free "patches".

The implication is to build systems like software with release patches. Imagine if Windows charged for -every- -single- incremental updated. That would be ludicrous. Now we come to the next fallacy of the implied (and marketted) software metaphor. When Windows publishes Windows Mobile, they don't broadcast it as the next Windows OS.

If you are going to generate a re-invention of fantasy gaming which is almost a breed apart from your previous version, perhaps your should retitle it and allow your product to continue.

I am in NO WAY saying TSR's methods were better, but perhaps a -properly- implemented and distinct implementation of the D&D and AD&D brands?

What should have WotC done? ... What should they have done?

1.) The Subscription based model, if one is going to do it, do it all out. I find Set's idea is sound on a business level, even if as a Consumer it may rankle a little.

2.) D&D Online .... Scrap it. Or fuse it with Neverwinter nights and RPGA. Make a TRULY IMMERSIVE MMORPG to Pen and Paper fusion. Expend your efforts on doing that well, rather than shoehorning Blizzards' and other MMO companies' methodologies into the core game. Different Expansions for different settings, the possibilities are NUMEROUS.

3.) Acquire Ral Partha, Reaper and other Miniatures Producers. Encourage a Miniatures Game with Mass Tactical rules if you are going to encroach on Games Workshop's territory. Don't tender-foot around it, DO it.

4.) Acquire some of the 3rd party publishers. If you've got the $$$, RAKE in the more profitable entities while maintaining their autonomy. If you're going to push a product, you have to -invest- in it.

5.) Dragonlance Movie Trilogy. Live Action. Make it happen, and for the love of all that's holy do it right. In a Similar vein, a NEW D&D Cartoon. Make it a quality, Emmy-level show, like the 2003 Masters of the Universe Relaunch.

6.) Incremental Dungeons ... it worked for Rappun Athuk and Undermountain. Focus on storied, multidimensional, massive dungeons with shifting conditions. It is what made Castly Greyhawk/Zagyg and Undermountain such hot-sellers. Perhaps a subscription based model here?

7.) War-based "Campaigns". Backtrack through the histories of these settings and market your mini's and tactical combat system with adventures or "campaigns" and blister packs that will encourage players and dm's to recreate these conflict. Perhaps make an RPGA event/league out of it which publishes "previously hidden lore and insights" gained from playing through these for subscribers.

8.) Reopen your stores with correct management and proper analysis of the market demographics in each area. Focus on your core products as opposed to diversifying so bad and selling -any-damn-thing- in them. Keep the atmosphere of providing a "Cheers" style gaming haven that supports the hobby as a whole and host RPGA-licensed games out of it, as you intended to implement back in '01 before the Hasbro acquisition which flooded these venues with boardgames. Keep your wireless LAN in the back as this draws in consumers.

As a former employee who quit when that happened, I have actually written my own thesis (and seen some college thesis submissions) on all the things that were done wrong at that time. Not with hindsight, but -as-they-happened-.

I would welcome being proven wrong on this topic for the first time in the Seven Years since when it came to all the predictions I made then ...

I'm no Nostradamus, but damn this stuff was soooooo transparent to see coming down the pipeline if you know what to look for.

They did not pull Ravenloft, Dragonlance or Dungeon and Dragon magazines to make the books - though they do make the books. They pulled all their properties so that they could use them to provide content for their DDI subscription model. Since the vast majority of 4E players are subscribers it may well be that it turns out to be a very profitable business decision. Almost certainly more profitable then just continuing to...

I disagree with your conclusion, though your facts are irrefutable.

Consider: A Print to PDF function and a Filesharing Client could make the DDI Content pirateable with -whimsical- ease.

Profitability is an extremely dicey thing to financial project when you have no control basis for the market you -would- have versus the market you -dont-. For instance, it can be argued that the Creation of DDI has in and of itself created an alternate revenue stream by freeing Paizo Writing staff and focus up from publishing Dungeon and Dragon magazine (much lament that they're not!) to publishing Pathfinder Adventure Paths (much to my glee!). To whit, they have created their own competitive sub-market with these decisions, and to build a financial model on the matter would involve far FAR too many variables, leaving it in the realm of conjecture ... but one can detect or surmise trends on the median of where the profitability of this would fall ...

So long as we understand each other, we're cool.

I was asking a single poster (who was flagged) to cool it on the anti-WotC rhetoric, not moderating the entire thread and accusing (J'accuse!!) everyone in it of doing the same.

I'd love for this thread to really be a "philosophical discussion of certain market etc" and not devolve into a "WotC ate my birthday cake!" thread. Again.

Cool. As a suggestion (and perhaps I should post this elsewhere) should perhaps a 'Moderator' title be added as a conditional BBCode to identifying you as such? Might cut down on future confusion and similar miscommunication.

So let me get this straight:

I moderate these boards. I'm asking you guys to cool it. And your response is to tell me "not to read the thread?" Am I understanding you correctly?

1.) Did not realize you were the moderator. So Apologies on that. My reaction was to a fellow participant, not someone with your function. So please file most of my commentary to you there in the listed post as "irrelevent". My apologies again.

2.) You were telling someone else to cool it, not me. This was in regards to the WotC bashing, which IMHO this discussion has grown far above and beyond, and was after a LONG string of various parties misrepresenting or hijacking the nature of this discussion into that direction when I (the original poster) made it very clear that is not the case, and was told for my trouble that that's what -ALL- this discussion has been about.

3.) I then follow this up by a suggestion to reread who said what and what's being said. I then retract with a "nevermind, I will follow my own advice" which was, if we don't want this to be a discussion about -THAT- to not react to people who seek to malign it AS -that- kind of edition wars nonsense.

4.) The Generalization "You guys" is pretty inaccurate. I made a mistake by prejudging what you had to say as a random onlooker engaging from a certain perspective. But you preceed that sir, with the assumption that we are all or even most of us engaged in said activity.

5.) Now if all this opens me up to censure or leaves you feeling offended, again I apologize, but moderator or no, I think my reaction (if admittedly heated) once taken in context makes a little more sense and is more reasonable than the summation you seem to be taking from it.

I would agree those moves were missteps.

Let me be clear. I am not fan of WotC. I did not like 3.5. I do not like 4e. I just do not see them as evil.
Now, back to your question. I see both moves with the simple goal of trying to make money.

... D&D has not been the innovator since OD&D. It has only adapted what others have proven to be successful. WotC does not hate you. They do not even know you. They are just trying to make money. You want to tell them they are going about it wrong, don't buy their stuff. There is no need for animosity. When they see everyone is buying Pathfinder, they will change their tune.

LOL Let me be clear. We each understand where the other is coming from with this. I don't see them as evil either. Just hopelessly shortsighted and incompetent. I feel (again this is personal but I can back it with examples and experiences if someone REALLY wants me to right a thesis on an esoteric principle) that a company that provides and focusses on providing -quality- product and caters better to it's (still niche despite numbers) clientele can be far, far better served. Ethical and sensible business practice with logical conclusions drawn from a straightforward sequence of events.

Case point, MAKE a Ravenloft 4E version if you are going to reacquire the license. Don't just pull the license and squat on it. Here's an example of a choice I would still find revulsive, but would be intelligent and profitable. and for the love of god, hire competent writers who have a storied understanding of said setting if you're going to do it that way.

Old Edition Downloads - ... I think they could access and use the material from all that and turn a profit. It's not like the existence of those third party vendors would prevent say, a Dragon-compendium style update to statistics from making money. Like I said, short sighted and poorly chosen.

I don't mind them being greedy. I mind them being STUPIDLY consumerist and flipping into a 2-5 year life cycle and various other aspects of their paradigm that will burn through gamer dollars with redundant or unnecessary revisions and built in obsolence.

No, they are not evil. Just -ALL- about the quick buck, as opposed to the long term investment and growth of the brand. I would like to see responsible and sensible handling thereof.

That being said, I -will- continue to support and -carefully- purchase certain products they produce, based on the individual writing on an independent basis. Yes, corporations and especially the individuals that make them up, can make mistakes. No one is immune to that. And as such, there has to be a caveat provided for growth and evolution, should the corporate entities (or the individuals who run them) show and inclination towards such.

Fanboy? Heh. Not really. I did tell you. It's not about anything like an unhealthy obsession. It's merely the fact that to get something out of your roleplaying that isn't as easily served filling in tax forms, you need to engage in it, let the fate of your character matter to you. If you never thought of that side of the investment, you have my sympathies.

Succinctly put, Sissyl. I think few really account for the emotional or time investment in these products or the impact of these business decisions on the existing consumer base?

When a company sells me a set of rules, my buying those shows that I believe the company will keep putting out good stuff. Paizo has consistently done so, ever since that first day in Sandpoint. Jumping on that train was easy, given what I had seen of their previous stuff such as the Shackled city, and how they made Dragon and Dungeon flower in their care. They keep an active contact with their customers here, they care what we think, and above all, they make products that show they enjoy the game, sharing in my investment. By gamers, for gamers is the standard, you know?[/QUOTE}

....

I believe this may be a difference between american and european thinking. Americans are generally much more forgiving of companies who treat them badly, at least that's the image I have gotten.

Hah! I like that. "B.G.F.G." Should be a sloganized subscript to the Paizo logo.

Regarding USA vs Foreign Consumer markets .. That may be true of your local market, but that's a rather broad generalization. Like any other nation that "we americans" (I'm a second generation immigrant from India myself) tend to homogenize and thus are mocked for our provinciality, "American Culture" and the mores tied to it varies from region to region, and differ as vastly and profoundly as, say, provinces of Spain, or Italy or China.

Please don't mistake me, I am sure that's not what you meant, just clarifying that many of us here -do- give a strong and profound kick to the hindquarters of companies that mistreat or belittle their consumer base as such.

I think it is more the niche' market and nature of these specific -hobby-based industries, and the fact that a massive giant in the form of Hasbro has claimed these properties, that leads to the current trend. Rather than catering to their consumer base, as many do when they are flexible and agile, as Paizo is, this scenario is one of a massive corporate entity with little interest simply because a degree of scale, in whether their existing market for said recently acquired product, is happy or not, when presented with the prospect of new markets and expanding that market.

It's rather typical in scenarios such as this, which nevertheless makes it no less tragic.

"WotC owes me!" What do they owe you? They gave you 3.5 which you love. It seems to me, that is the end of their contract with you. They put out new material. If it meets with your expectations, you buy it. Another contract. If they do not, you make no bargain with them. You go and spend your entire allowance at Paizo.

I agree with 99% here in the vacuum of other evidence, without entailing any of the other "business decisions" that WotC has made. Pulling the Ravenloft license so they could get a mediocre profit off of a badly written book that undoes much of their previous canon and further alienates the gamer audience was NOT a smart move.

Neither was removal and revocation of license to resell soft-copies of older editions products from various legal and licensed third party vendors, for what was a single act of illegal piracy of a 4E book that was performed by one of their own employees. Essentially punishing the previous editions' enthusiasts and vendors that cater to them for the actions of an employee with regards to their -newest- edition (the PHB II IIRC). I had a link to the post on this matter where it was discussed on these 'boards, but this discussion alone has blasted it past my "recent posts" feed.

What are your thoughts on the matter, given those two manuevers. Not from the perspective of one who feels their owed, but literally wide-sweeping gestures that are ineffective for the stated goals, and only succeed in alienating those who would not be previously, and further inciting resentment in others?

I addendum, the PFRPG Hardcover is GORGEOUS! I have been told I can kill a man with it, but didn't quite believe it until I held its firm, pristine binding for myself.

Yes.... It WILL BE GLORIOUS!!! *Worf Voice*

VedicDragon wrote:

We really have less nerd rage than WoW??? Really?

Yes.

WAY less. ... further examples, etc etc etc

Wow. I feel you. Seriously, used to be Customer Service myself (Aaaaaaages ago) and it was NOT fun. I try to keep those experiences in mind whenever I am engaged in mortal kombat with AT&T or Sprint et al. with customer service.

Having been on both sides of the divide, I can see why either one (Customer Service Rep dealing with Insane, Gibbering Rage, or the Customer driven to that point for whatever reasons) makes rational, reasonable and sane people want to grab a glock and bust a clip into somebody.

I am glad that you've had less of those experiences as a Paizo rep. There are things in life that pull invisible strands, (not to get too philosophical here) and sometimes it helps to look from the outside to see those strands being tugged, as the various players go about their ordained roles, and see the play for what it is.

:-)

But yes, High road and all that! W00t!

*gives all paizo employees and customers virtual cookies*

Many thanks! I have confirmation of delivery. AS usual, you guys rawk!

*digs up his Chronomancer Supplement from 2nd Edition Archives to Assist, complete with the Web-Enhancement 'Chronomancy in the Multiverse'*

*Back to the Future Fanfare plays*

Sissyl wrote:

So, to answer another person wanting the "edition wars to be over" ...

Hi there. I want the edition wars to be over, too. So cool it on the anti-WotC rhetoric. I appreciate that you feel slighted, maligned, and "left behind" but the sentiment probably doesn't need to be aired again and again and again. Let's move on, shall we?

How about just not read the thread, especially if that is all you have to offer?

If you see a forum posting where you're -obviously- not going to like the trend (or not, if that's clearly all you felt worthy of contribution in spite of NUMEROUS posts that expand beyond that) perhaps you'd care to offer constructive commentary after -carefully- reading what else has been written? In Context? Or refrain from commenting haphazardly (which is certainly your right, as it is hers to ignore you completely and continue a pointed if potentially controversial perspective which many of us happen to agree with)

*sighs* Nevermind. That's simply too much to ask, apparently. I will follow my own advice now.

Jeremy, not just the new converts are offended. Some of us bitter old grognards still have an axe to grind with this, especially with the pulling of all virtual sales of the older products.

What do you propose? Surely we as the consumers don't have to just "roll over and take it". I mean beyond the obvious and repetitive discussed solutions of "make your own", "run your games quietly in the background" and "support the indies". I am talking about a concerted push from consumers to redirect the market trends away from this cancerous and frankly baffling business model.

And of course, beyond praying that Paizo NEVER resorts to similar tactics...

See, now THIS is more of what I am talking about!!! This is what I was looking for! (Not a Game of HERO, though that would be cool too)

Thank you. I believe I have a better understanding of where you are coming from, VedicDragon.

I would like to take this opportunity to say, "Welcome to the party." You are about 20 years late. D&D completely ignored narrative style in the early days. There was no semblance of balance at all. Now, I realize that was not your preferred style, so I could see how you may have missed it. 3.5 gave it a little nod, but still largely ignored it.

Yes, yes. Lots of groups put in all sorts of narrative into their game. However, it was not really built into the model of kill things, take their stuff, level up.

Yes, yes. Lots of groups put in all sorts of narrative into their game. However, it was not really built into the model of kill things, take their stuff, level up.

I find that 2nd Edition had such a Plethora of Robust literature on how to make the game immersive. I joined up back when I was 6, watching my older cousins play 1st and then 2nd. THESE, to me, were the Halcyon days. There was so much RICH lore ... so many DEEP and thoroughly well written products it is difficult to relate to others all that was lost. It is akin to comparing Roman and Hellenic Empire's Acquired Repositories of Knowledge and Sciences to the Dark Ages. Which is essentially what I feel the Company did-- To whit, set torches to the most treasured and precious pearls of knowledge, that Gamer-generation's "Library of Alexandria" if you will.

And here it is, again, in 3.5 to 4th. White Wolf did the same in the Transition to New WoD, and I spit on anyone who parrots to me the trite old "You can write it in, if you really want to" because they obviously have no comprehension of how much time and effort and investment has been wasted, nor the slightest bit of comprehension in what that injection of auld into new entails, nor the problems therein.

Yes, by all means, alot of that were groups, but if you actually READ ALL the extensive literature as I did, they REALLY did leap to a high level of "Simulationist" play (though they used a different term for maintaining that balance. It was called "good DM'ing" )

It seems to me that WotC was only following the market. In every D&D game I ever played in (yes, I realize that is my own personal experience, I have nothing else to base my opinion on), it was very gamist. As far as the evil corporate entity trying to get you to buy product after product, I have some very bad news for you. 1e did it, 2e did it, 3.5 did it. Microsoft does it. MMORPGs figured out a way to completely skip even producing a product and simply make you just keep paying them to play the game you already bought.

That seems to advocate a mentality of Moral Bankruptcy in the corporate environment. Present Business Practices notwithstanding, the whole "Apple, Think Different", and TSR's original paradigms would disprove this concept. TSR had the fierce brand loyalty it did by at least -attempting- to cater to its niche market. Granted there were severe flaws with OD&D to AD&D conversion, but at least they threw ya a bone and gave ya something! Even reconciliation of the "Original D&D Setting" as Mystara / Blackmoor, for better or worse.

It was not -drastically undone- in similar fashion, just explored in different continents and underneath-the-crust (Hollow Earth IIRC). Granted TSR may not be the best example, but they went belly-up for diversifying too much at one time. I feel in the form of systems, the D&D line is doing the same.

While there ARE indeed lots of excellent games with smaller purchasing investment, for a company who claims to be the industry-leaders and flagship of the genre, I would think behaving like spoiled children with a license would NOT be a formula for success.

I have been angry about these things for 15 years, myself. So I guess that gives me "grognard" status too (at least to the latest batch of kids picking up the game).

And yes a Game of HERO would be delightful. Just Let me bring my graphing calculator. :P

wonderful satire on this comedy of errors

Dude. Stop it... *falls over laughing his @$$ off*

Does that make me Governor Arnold??