Monk/Bard
Nuff said
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Getting rogues to do damage requires some planning. Even down to the party lineup. If you have a debuffing wizard hopping around with you, who is able to stun, blind or otherwise confound the enemies, an archer rogue can do glorious damage by piling up some rapid shots and deadly aim, and still be out of that horrible horrible full-attack reprisal from the slighted enemy. If no such debuffer exists, being an archer is a "bear-favor" as we call it up in Norway. Then you want to get in and flank, which requires a lot more, you need to be mindful of your AC, your staying power, your HP, and have at least two other buddies in melee with you so your can go from flank to flank without wasting rounds feebly poking against an enemy with your 1d6+1 or whatever. Simply put, playing an effective rogue requires some finesse and a bit of game knowledge. And even when you do it right, you are only able to deal "good" damage. Never "ZOMG-AMAZING!" damage, like fighters and smiting paladins. Which is their thing. While you creep around on the dungeon floor, looking for suspicious bits of debris and frustrate blaster mages.
Fighting-oriented Rogue with Dex 18 Vs basic 2H Fighter with Str18: Lv3: (assuming masterwork weapons)
Fighter: BAB+3, Str+4, MW+1, WF+1 = +9 (+8 Power Attack) Dam: 2d6+6/9 Average damage on hit: 13/16 AC:20 (MW Fullplate, Dex+1) Lv6: (Assuming +1 weapon)
Fighter: BAB+6/+1, Str+4, +1wpn+1, WF+1, WT+1 = +13 (+11 power attack) Dam: 2d6+10/16 Average damage on hit: 17/23 AC:22(Fullplate+1, Misc protective item+1, Dex+1) Lv9: (assuming +2 stat gear and +2 weapon, +1 agile for rogue for damage)
Fighter: BAB+9/+3, Str+6, +2wpn+2, GWF+2, WT+2 = 21 (+18 Power attack) Dam: 2d6+15/24 Average damage on hit: 22/31 AC:24 (Fullplate+2, Ring+2, Dex+1) Note that I put the sneak attack damage in paranthesis as it is optional for when the rogue actually gets in flank or otherwise qualifies for it. Fighter does not need to qualify for his damage. Only at lv9 does the rogue's sneak attack outdo the BASIC fighter damage, no power attack. At all times, the fighter with power attack outdoes the rogue average, with sneak attack. AC remains somewhat similar, as this is not a defensive fighter build, and the rogue invests as heavily in armor class to remain viable in melee. In my experience, every third or so attack from a rogue can be reliably called a sneak attack, unless you are heavily supported by magic (in which case the fighter math takes on another guise as well). This means the fighter deals around 4 times as much damage as the rogue. Builds used:
Obviously, you have a LOT of leeway with feats here, which can change the end results dramatically.
+1 on the "who cares about lv20". 90% of games in my experience are lv1-15, where the game is fun for all. After 16 it is no longer fun for the GM IMO. Unless you get a kick out of scribbling for hours, and conceiving terrifying scenarios in hopes to challenge the drunken norse gods that are the PCs. Usually only to have the wizard win initiative, and reduce your finely crafted encounter to gibbering houseplants with his DC30, save twice take lower spells, for the martial character to tear into and compare peni- I mean damage outputs. Seriously, I remember spending 8-10 hours preparing for 2 encounters, only so the characters might feel slightly challenged. No fun at all. Which is why the real comparison levels should be 5, 9 and 12 IMO, which is late enough for characters to come into their own, and before they become the riders of the apocalypse, toying with the poor mortal fools that dare clutter their path.
Power Attack in 3.5 was superior due to the versatility. If you would hit anyway (which is rather often for a well-made fighter, doubly so for a gish with wraithstrike and whatnot), you can sink all your BAB into damage. I said earlier that two of my players thought their characters were nigh useless when they converted them, now that "power attack is nerfed into uselessness". What makes my paladonk do more damage is the reliability. If he needs to move, he gets one hit with vital strike and power attack. That was 2d10+15 or so. Which is a higher average than 6d6+3 which was the rogue's sneak attack. IF she got sneak attack.
My str16 switch-hitter Paladin8/Monk1 two-handing a +1 bastard sword at lv9 (how is THAT for optimizing) did way more damage than the rogue in the same party across the duration of any combat. Even when not smiting. Even when using a bow, and the only archery feat he had was Deadly Aim. Heck, even when punching and kicking for the lulz to do bludgeoning damage. Because he reliably hit just about every time he swung his sword. She did not. Because he did not need the enemy to be messed up/flanked to stack up damage. She did. Because power attack >>>> Sneak attack as a damage source. Because my AC and saves, and this staying power, was amazing, hers was meh at best. Because paladins are better than rogues. And when I smote... the GM started posting online on how paladins were OP.
Don't know the enemy is there; enemy gets a single action in the surprise round. Knows the enemy is there, but the enemy beats you on initiative; flat-footed. Flat-footed is plenty adequate IMO. If you have invested lots of dex and a feat into initiative, you have superhuman reflexes and react in less than a second, which means "suddenly combat" is common fare for you. Giving surprise to someone who is visible = breaking the rules, and kicking game balance in the groin. If I plat a lv9 rogue that is allowed to not only get a surprise action off, but then compete for initiative, I could freely deliver 5d4+25d8+whatever (quickdraw daggers on surprise, one Sneak attack, +4 attacks on my turn) before the other dude even got to react. If I was a fighter, 8d6+60 (Vital strike, then two attacks). If I was a wizard, the entire encounter would be won. How is that fair?
I'm just pointing out how initiative and surprise are supposed to work.What's your evidence of your insight into the intent of the initiative system? You're ignoring my points while quoting my posts, and going back to this old drum - so, what is it? How do you know that 'surprised via lack of visual acuity' is the only form of surprise? How do you KNOW that psychology plays absolutely no role in initiative? Reeeaaally? OK, what determines if a CHARACTER, and I repeat _CHARACTER_, not PLAYER, is aware of something, if not skill checks opposed by other skill checks? A character with certain bonuses _CANNOT_ by the rules fail to notice certain things. And when you have visual acuity on someone, you are able to react. Even allowing the Bluff VS Sense Motive to get one is a HUGE benefit, as everyone knows, past a certain level, you can win a fight by winning initiative, and it is something I would NEVER allow in my games. I would go so far as saying that a GM who does this to a player is pulling a "d*ck move", as another thread discusses. It completely shifts balance, and is far worse than the people who dump charisma, then proceed to play like they have all the swagger and confidence in the world. Disregard rules, obtain victory through "RP".
If you want to play low-magic, I suggest playing E6, cap the game at lv6 and not have the epic/high fantasy stuff in your world except some CR10 or so creatures as "Holy crap, we're dead!"-bosses. The difference between underequipped noncasters and casters start to shift severely around then, and cannot be balanced properly. Also, the effect of having a "cell phone" item is not a minor one. The spell "Sending" is the equivalent of a text message (lv4-5 spell). And having a conversation with someone is even higher level. But I can see how kids growing up in the 90s don't realize what a revolutionary piece of technology that is, being used to have it around all their lives.
In my experience, the rogue gets off full-round sneak attacks MAYBE once per battle, unless the party is REEEEAAAAALLY investing themselves in setting it up, with the wizard and cleric stunning and blinding people left and right, in which case the enemy is "defeated" anyway. In that one round, they MIGHT outdamage the fighter, if he rolls well on attack rolls. In all the other rounds, the fighter is wondering why they keep the skulking douche around when he barely contributes in battle, as the fighter does amazing damage on every round, always hitting everything he swings against. I can't believe more people are not seeing this. Are you not playing the game?
So, in other words, your players must make their "sense motive" rolls on you as the GM, in order for their characters to get use of their skills? You are aware that no real life gamer has more than likely +3 in such skills, and no more than 12-13 at best in relevant "stat". And as such cannot hope to truly emulate a character with +20 in the skill and 20+ in the relevant stat? This is kinda why the rules explicitly makes opposed rolls reactive. Also, I have not once said that they get any free rolls. I have consistently stated that in order to DO subterfuge, you need subterfuge skills. And yes, your perception CAN tell if someone is behind a counter, even a wall, at a penalty. And I don't think you fully grasp the nonsensical godlike level of attention someone with more than +20 perception possess. He automatically overhears all conversations, even if he is distracted, he casually can tell what is whispered across the room, he cannot fail to spot moving invisible creatures, and smell a flower from across the street. How is it fair to say that this creature of legendary prowess does not NOTICE a bandit coming from the rear? He can easily hear him, smell him, feel his footsteps, and likely SEE him in the reflection in the eyes of someone sitting across from him.
In other words: House rules. If someone moves to attack you mid-sentence, they are moving to attack. And it is not binary; attacking, not attacking. The insulting comment need to sink in, anger build up, and then strike in affect. That is usually more than a second long process, unless said person has brain damage and does not act like normal people. And a second is plenty to get in the reactive sense motive that "sh*it is about to go down, yo!" Then the faster person wins. The offended gunslinger wishes to shoot you, but you won initiative? His hand is on the holster, but you were quicker, and win. The surprise action should ONLY come into play when one side is unaware of the other. Someone in plain sight CANNOT surprise someone else. Except if you are playing 3.0 and your character is a Iaijutsu Master, wherein one of his high-level special prestige class abilities was to strike mid-conversation. If the player is not paying attention, feel free to penalize the awareness skills with -5 as per the rules. You don't get to stab someone in the face for not remembering to question everything and roll dice every 6 seconds. At least not in my games.
Implying the gunslinger does not have high dex and likely improved initiative and win the initiative? Also, if you go up and insult people and DON'T expect there to be consequence... wow. Then you must be pre~etty oblivious. Like, wis3-4. Or another non-premeditated attack. Armed guard is watching prisoner. Prisoner draws a shiv. Guard quickly shoots prisoner. Following training not emotion there, not pre-meditating it out. Intending to shoot the guy if he breaks protocol is not premeditated? I fail to come to the same conslusion.
He still GETS the check, and while he might not figure out that the hot barmaid is actually an assassin, his attentive cleric friend who can tell if your brother is cheating on his wife merely by looking at how you pick your teeth, will likely so. Surprise action, everyone who makes the check gets to act, those who do not, do not.
Oh really? Describe to me a situation where someone makes a sudden NON-premediated attack on another. Anyone who is planning to attack someone, however quick, has telltale signs that a careful observer can detect. You want me to run that example by the rules:
- He moves up to the PCs to quickdraw and attack: Bluff, as he is trying to advance on someone with murderous intent. Sense motive is REACTIVE when someone uses bluff. - Failure to succeed in these skill checks: Surpise action. Anything else: Breaking the rules/houserules. I read the rules as such: PCs, who face death on a daily basis, NEVER have their guard totally lowered beyond the -5. These are not the guys who shrink away from the monsters that skulk in the dark. These are the guys who boots in their face, hacks off their heads, peels off anything that might be useful for later monster-murder, then carts away their loot. They are not bouncers, they are not mere special ops elite soldiers. They are heroes of legend. So in summation: Do you want to be a slick guy that can stab someone unexpectedly as you are standing right in front of someone, talking to them? Invest heavily in bluff. Want to approach someone without their notice? Invest heavily in stealth. So far, there has not been a single example where either of these two skills do not apply. And both of there skills are opposed by REACTIVE checks in perception/sense motive. And yes, you ARE aware of your surroundings, even when otherwise occupied. Some people are able to get completely absorbed into what they are doing, and in game mechanical terms, I would say those are the people with very low perception scores... Sometimes I miss the old "unattentive" flaw from 3.X
Me, and anyone who has ever been a bouncer call tell you this: It is easy to read when angry people are going to move on you, and if you have any semblance of training (PCs being marvel super heroes) you are always prepared to move back. My ruling as a GM in this scenario: Bluff vs Sense Motive. Anything else is a bullsh*t "would YOU be able to do such and such in real-life?". Bullsh*t because no heroic PC is ever as slovenly and useless as any of us modern pudgy noncombatants. Personally, the only time I allow surprise actions is when you are unaware of an enemy. I think this is in accordance with the rules as well.
Trapfinding has not been "needed" since 2ed. Traps are no longer anywhere near as lethal as they were back in the old days. Sure, they are a pain to deal with, but rarely, if ever, are they going to kill you unless your thief went ahead and fixed the room. Clerics have always been able to find traps. They have a lv2 spell that used to find all traps, now it just helps them. That rangers also can do it now is just gravy, as traps are, as previously mentioned, more a hurdle than a wall. However, being able to do something WELL is somewhat protected still. A rogue is still the best trap-finder, just not the only trap-finder. A rogue can still fight, but is nowhere near a fighter or barbarian. A cleric can socialize, but a bard is better. What I spoke of was the gishes and multitalents of 3.5 where the prestige-class and spell bloat made it possible to make a character that is not only equally good at two specializations, but by far eclipsing their singleclass companions, further helped with the existence of multiclass feats that covered what you now lose. I have seen people play Fighter/Wizard/Abjurant Champion/Bladesinger type characters that outfought the fighter, and had almost the full arcane might of a wizard. All you need then is someone to patch you up when you are done killing dragons singlehandedly. Think power attack is good now? Well, in the hands of a 3.5 gish that could consistently spend his entire BAB on it because he rolled touch attacks, the old PA was far better. One of my players almost refused to change to PF because it "nerfed the combatants into the dirt". And the odd time the hasted lv9 rogue was able to get off a full-attack with SA, and score perhaps 2 or 3 hits due to a comparably low to-hit modifier on secondary attacks, dealing 15-20d6 was not all that impressive when the hasted lion-charging psychic warrior/warmind could do full attacks from charge, dishing out 3 solid hits that did some odd 6d6+90. And now I am erring on the side of caution. I suggest you try the multi-sneakattack before you damn it. You will see that it is not as effective as one might dread. Rolling a lot of d6 might SEEM intimidating, but really, it is not going to be more impressive than an average fireball or lightningbolt, on a good round, only this one is just affecting one target. As I said, the last two rogues that have been played at our table, have been swapped out because the players were unhappy with their inability to contribute. (We play Adventure Paths, and the few times they call for rogue skills is not anywhere near enough to make the rogue feel appreciated if he does not make a good contribution to combat)
I want to know how he knew what people were wizards or other such spell casters just by looking at them -- someone is more than a little meta me thinks.I generally work on the assumption that the guy cowering in the back, chanting nonsense, making shadow puppets, and playing with owlbear dung is a wizard / spellcaster. I was more upset when my 3.5 cleric/ordained champion of Tyr, wielding a longsword and a heavy shield, and wearing full plate, was IMMEDIATELY identified as a cleric. Never confused with a fighter, or even a paladin. "That tall, heavily built (str16, thanks to 4d6, discard lowest) that is smiting people is the CLERIC! Take him out first!" Also, somehow, cleric CHARISMA somehow got ignored by my DM. Because "a cleric is not charismatic in that way". Perfect sense. The people flocked to the fighter/psy war with Cha10, because warriors are cool. My cha22 LG cleric did not exude that quality.
I found 3.5 much less "group friendly" than PF, if that makes any sense? In 3.5, you could easily make characters that could effectively cover multiple bases and be mostly self-sufficient. Now, you more or less have to pick a schtick and rely on your party to cover the bases that you cannot. Also, 3.5 spells were god-awfully broken.
Which is a less direct way of saying "Only people who have never seen a rogue actually played throughout a game, and experienced the lackluster effect sneak attack has in a game when compared to real combatants, will speak out against it and nerf it." If your problem is that the rogue is doing too much damage, I dread to think what an actually well made fighter will do to your game.
This. Use actions as the rules demands, and don't cheat, and I am plenty cool with having enemies disarm and remove weapons. This is no more unfair than an enemy fighter using a standard action to disarm the player and using a move action to kick the sword away. @Lv12 Procrastinator: I lawyer plenty against players as well when they try to break the rules. Just rare that players get away with it, because they don't have the last say.
eventually a hit on every attack (by every class) becomes guaranteed for everything short of automatic fumble rules.Thats ridiculous. Have you even played the game once? For a fighter/smiting paladin/raging barbarian/ranger vs favored enemy, with all the buffs of a well-oiled party backing him, this is true. For all others, nope. Well, maybe a well made combat cleric as well.
Let me see if I got this straight, 3.5 Loyalist have made wizards (the MOST powerful class in the game, by a long shot) MORE powerful, by having them cast more spells from having high BAB, and he has NERFED the rogue (arguably as weak or even weaker than the monk) If this is correct, my mind is well and proper blown.
I never argued anything BUT the rogue's lackluster sides. Sneak attack damage in and of itself is pretty solid, assuming they actually get to sneak attack. Which is actually kinda hard to reliably do, for a lot of reasons. Fighters can easily full attack most any given round, and work at maximum efficiency at all times. Also, while the potential damage output of a rogue might theoretically equal or even surpass those of his peers, rogues do not hit easily on all their attacks. Fighters and paladins do. And an attack that misses deals the least damage of all.
Amusing. The argument used against crafting is the "Lv20 by two weeks or bust" argument. Why NOT craft? If the players want to use... lets say a Scorpion Whip, or an Elven Courtblade. Rare, exotic weapons I have yet to see "dropped" in any given AP, what then? Do I randomly add strange, exotic weapons so they get to be on par with what WBL progression suggests? Not to mention randomly generated loot rarely gives you anything but a giant pile of garbage that serves more to break immersion for me than having the halfling sing the "Mountain Dew" song in character. Also, being able to deal hundreds of damage to monsters is no big deal. Set XP to slow, add more monsters, tweak them so they are powerful enough to give them a run for their money, and presto: We have a working game. A bunch of dudes dealing 300-500 damage total and casting spells with DCs close to 30 against an encounter with a bunch of monsters with 4000 hp between them and +20 in all saves is about the same as a bunch of dudes dealing 30-50 damage total and casting spells with DCs of 13+ against monsters with a total of 400 hp and low saves. Dunno if people who disagree with this simplistic logic are dumb or lazy... possibly both. Edit: inb4 "The rest of the world is not like them" or any variation thereof. Your precious special snowflake world =/= mine. I make a game for my players, and logic follows their style. If they optimize, the world optimizes.
Rogues have lower BAB, meaning power attack is not as powerful, and they are slower to qualify for key feats. They also are restricted to light armor, so they die easier, and they are not proficient with shields. And a rogue is usually far from "auto-hit territory", lacking 6-10 to hit on a proper fighter (weapon training, BAB etc), meaning several of the later attacks will likely miss. The "right" way to play a dual-wielding rogue IMHO is to max UMD and pay the wizard for a wand of Greater Invisibility. Then you consistently get sneak attack, and you even out the to-hit discrepancy by gaining +2 from being invisible, and taking away dex and dodge bonuses from the target. To whomever said stuff about magic-mart; Magic marts are pedestrian, the wizard and cleric make the stuff. Who in their right mind goes shopping when you can make it for half the price at home?
In my Kingmaker game, the fighter consistently averaged 150-200 (depending on # of crits) damage per round at lv10, with almost auto-hit on all attacks. Yes, buffs are always up, as it is in any thought-out group.Would u mind listing the bonuses just because i'm doing the math and i'm only coming out to an average 110ish average damagewith buffs, (haste, bull str) and a +3 weapon full power attack wep spec greater wep spec, wep training 2 anything i missed? Sorry, level 11. His weapons were more or less as powerful as the wizard could make them, so likely +3 at the time. He had the gloves that gives you +2 to your weapon training stuff, and a metric ton of bonuses to hit and damage from the cleric, the wizard and the Order of the Dragon cavalier piling all, and I do mean ALL, the bonuses that are available in the game on him. He was dual-wielding longsword and shield, with Shield Master giving him a good chunk of extra pain. 4 main hand attacks due to haste, and 3 off hand. And some trick that gave him additional attacks whenever he critted with the shield. I need to get his sheet to actually tally up everything, but yeah, it was pretty heinous. Also two-weapon rend and such. Main hand:
Off hand:
7d8+137+17d6 sounds about right...
Take a level of Barbarian, preferabley your first. The Rage bonuses stack and work great with Feral Mutagen. Drunken Brute Barbarian Archetype swaps fast movement to let you drink potions as a move action. Make a habit of walking around with a simple potion you nearly always use (Enlarge Person being a personal favorite) and you can drink that one as a move action, then use a buffing extract (standard action), and in one round, he has two effects going from his alchemy. This is the "not a big encounter" buff, where you swing your greataxe or falchion for fun. On DANGEROUS encounters, that second extract is the mutagen, and you are good to go as a a huge beefcake. Wait until the start of your next turn, and rage. Now you are at +10 strength, and deal damage as if one size category larger. That means that the enemy is going to get boo-boos. Lots of fun to be had. As for archetype, I find the vivisectionist to be the most obvious choice. When the Greater Invisibility finally comes along, you will be tearing things apart with +5d6 on top of your already massive damage. Bombs are fun, but not your cup of tea if you are going for tearing stuff apart, as Str and Con needs to be higher, or at least AS high as your Int, which means your bomb damage and DC is going to be less than impressive.
CLAIMING THE 1000TH POST FOR THE GLORY OF GORUM! (Stanislaw here. Just wondering if we should head to the Staggy Lord of pew pews immediately, or keep back for a while. As I have GMed this before, I know that the AP wants us to be lv3 before we even attempt...)
"Oho? Is that an invitation to pretend to be your significant other? Not scared I will beat you over the head and drag you to my cave for animal-like rutting?" he echoes in jests and taps the top of her head for effect "I think the pious warrior might be a better match, as I am hardly a youth anymore. Thought he seems rather rigid, and you might have a harder time to make him pass for a lustful local."
Tyrgrim grumbles and looks to the others "I am not very stealthy. If we are to spring a trap, we need someone who can avoid being seen by the culprit." he scratches his head and looks towards the temple "Maybe we should go talk to the priests before setting the trap, as we have a good while before the sun sets?"
The sheriff just gave me permission to hack down the painter of plasma? Excellent! Let the wrath of Gorum commence :P @Anca: Yeah, pretty close. Give his a little longer beard, put banded armor on him and make his sword a greatsword, and it is pretty accurate.
Tyrgrim pats the sheriff on the shoulder "When you cannot find the lair of a beast, you set a trap. I reckon whomever did this is inclined to come back and study their handiwork, or who knows, maybe the culprit ran out of blood and intend to continue another night? I say we keep an eye on this place, and if our macabre artist returns, we jump the whore-spawn!"
Would assume so. Not like Tyrgrim is gonna go "Oath of being all bro and s@#&" and then go "Nah, secret, neener neener!"
Not much action this weekend, eh?
Perception:
Tyrgrim pokes at the blood, rubs it around his fingertips, smells it and tastes it before spitting "Bah, I have patched up enough warriors to tell you right off the bat; this is not from a human. Neither the amount nor the texture fits. Human blood tend to be richer, more saturated." he wipes his hands in the dirt and looks to the others "I am guessing a dog or a cat. Anyone missing a pet?"
Sense Motive: "Oh..." Tyrgrim's color seems to fade a little as he contemplates her words "You were not fighting? I'm sorry. Being tortured by ones enemies is uncommon back home, and the thought didn't even strike me." he gives her a determined smile and look her in the eyes "Wear them with honor, and draw strength from the anger at the bastards who inflicted them to fuel your will to fight! Then Gorum will smile on your resolve and grant you victory!" he grins and pats her comradely on her back "If you get shanked again, come to me, and I will fix you right up, eh?"
Perception: Tyrgrim takes Anca to the side as they are ready to leave "Seems I owe you an apology. From the state of your body, it seems you have seen your share of combat." he places a hand on her shoulder and smiles "If you are any GOOD, I cannot say, but by Gorum's beard, it is commendable that you have survived whatever caused such scars. My hat is off to ya," he slaps her back and laughs "if I had one!"
A large hand smacks down on the table, making the dining-ware jolt and rattle "Trouble? Let's go then!" Tyrgrim states as he rises and slings his large sword over his back. "When we find the cantankerous old git, he pauses and looks to Zaxarii "Specified that I did not spew my bile WITHOUT cause, aye? This arse has given me plenty cause." then looks back to Anca "I am guessing you want to do the interviewing, lest I make him piss his breeches with my foreignness and healthy complexion." he jests and heads for the door, eager to see some manner of resemblance to action.
"By the gods! THIS is a breakfast! How is a woman that masters house, cooking and hospitality such not fending off suitors with both hands?" Tyrgrim praises as he eats as one might expect him to; well beyond twice the portion of a normal person. He sits with a piece of bacon in his hand and points it towards the books from last night "Your father's journal mentioned some leads. I am thinking we-" he looks to the others and rolls his eyes "well, at least the ones who does not scare the tiny locals, would ask the church about the prisoners. Criminal scum tend to be sneaky little s~%~s, and if they are haunting the place, maybe one of em pushed the gargoyle free? If that is the case, I would think we should know about em, like your father said; learn about evil to destroy evil. Also, we should go check out the false crypt he mentioned. he suggests and takes a bite from his pointing-bacon "When hunting, one brings the best weapon one can find for the job! Mmm-mmm. Damn this is good bacon!"
http://www.mangareader.net/vinland-saga/77/21 That is pretty much as close as I can get to a graphical depiction of Tyrgrim, in appearance and mannerism. While Trey Parker's Fightin' Round the World is a good themesong as any, I think the lyrics of Manowar - The Power of thy Sword would be the non-silly version.
Before battle, Tyrgrim unsheathes his greatsword for the first time; a masterfully crafted blade, a wide blood-ridge littered with ulfen runes that form a passage from the Gorumskagat, the only holy text of the faith. He raises it to the sky and give a loud roar before he starts praying in skald; "Stridfader, ik beder ad thir, signe thinne kamp, slig ad åre blodir æra thig."(Battlefather, I pray to thee, bless this fight, so that our blood honors thee) he touches his symbol, and blesses both combatants before assumeing a combat stance. Crunch:
Seize the Initative Domain ability (roll twice for initative, keep the best): Initiative: or Attack: Since Tyrgrim has a lower initiative modifier, he loses initiative, and the attack hits. First blood rules is half weapon damage, no strength.
As duels tend to be between competent warriors, it is over in a flash of steel only seconds after beginning. Being struck by his blade a split second before his own blow would have connected, Tyrgrim locks his arms and stop the heavy blade less than an inch from impact and looks at the paladin with a mask of surprise before he grins and laughs heartily "Well done! It seems Gorum wills that I hold my judgement and anger, and defer to your will, eh? At least for a week, when I will challenge you again... lest we have enemies to fight! HAH!" he invokes a divine spell and touches his wound, which vanishes completely, leaving a decorative scar. Then he pats Zaxarii on the back as he heads back to the house "Come, sverdbroder, share a drink and tell me the story of your warrior path!" Spellcasting: Spellcraft DC17: Cure Light Wounds
Tyrgrim laughs at the sentiment of competing with him on how many cultists they each slay "Excellent spirit! But Gorum demands his priests honor him by taking on some manner of combat challenge one per day preferably, and at least once per week, or his favor will vane." he explains with a determined look. "Besides, as a warrior yourself, are you not eager to try your hand against another?"
Tyrgrim folds his arms over his chest and grunts "Agreed! Servants of dark gods. Few enemies are more deserving of my wrath." He looks to Zaxarii "I feel a little more focused now, but I would still like to have the duel, if for no other reason that to see your skill with the blade before we are cast into life and death battles." he smiles, a flicker of excitement in his eyes at the promise of combat to come. "I am thinking first blood, so we don't accidentally lob each others head off!" he jests and slaps his back with a laugh.
My line of reasoning:
2) I'd imagine that a flesh-carving devotee of ZK would make em so she hurts when moving in certain ways, to remind her who is her master. 3) When someone is damaged goods, someone with high numbers in heal and sense motive should be able to pick up on it after hours of observation. 4) As I have had my abdomen gutted from sternum to pelvis (in surgery), I know that cut skin does not have the same smoothness as intact skin. If she had magical healing because the SO is a cleric of ZK, sure, if it has healed naturally... no. 5) PF is a game of the supernatural. With a perception DC20 check you can spot an invisible creature moving by. If it is "impossible" to spot swellings through clothes, I call haxx. Disguise roll +10 would be fair in my mind. So if we for the sake of argument say she takes 10, it is a DC23 check to notice something off. 3 more than "OH HAI INVISIBLE MARK." Impossible for Jim Everycommoner, but possible for someone with trained senses. We have talked it out, and we're not gonna escalate this any more. I am still playing a cleric of Gorum, so he is obviously still going to be a tad rough around the edges, as his god more or less dictates.
First, again; all he did was calmly rebuke a peasant who openly disrespected his eulegy and our presence here. He did not assail the commoners en masse, nor threaten the man with consequences. He pointed out that he was being disrespectful and out of line, and asked him to keep his peace. The oath is a promise to the cause. She would be free at the same time. Re-read it; not a single time does he demand they serve HIM specifically, but rather, he offers to serve them all for this pledge. The professor is described to be a great man, and from what I understand, he is pretty much the most awesome dude in Ustalav. Not being inspired by him at all makes Tyrgrim wary. Which also explains his acceptance of Fasir; he was his apprentice (as far as Tyrgrim knows), and the professor approved of him. He HAS to be a cool guy in Tyrgrim's mind. Tyrgrim's scorn has always been for the tops keeping the masses down. There should be little to no cause to misinterpret that. He thinks it silly that 'civilized' people are EITHER workers OR warriors. Most ulfen are both. You fight when it is called for, and work when it is not. What he HAS said is that he is not overly impressed with the civilized warriors. The difference between the average ulfen berserker and the average civilized soldier is rather jarring. Oh yeah, another thing; you are lacerated and from what I understand, still in pain from it? Strange that Tyrgrim have not picked up on that, what with his best skills being Heal, Perception and Sense Motive, and you not having a single rank in bluff or disguise, nor are particularily strong-willed. You know, stuff that might have tipped him off that something is wrong, and made him more sympathetic, rather than think her to be a super-king-kamehameha-beeyatch.
He thinks civilization in general is foolish, and only serve to weaken the masses to serve the powerful. And it is a sin in the eyes of Gorum to accept complacency and never take up arms when challenged. Fat complacent people who rest on their laurels, or worse, the laurels of others, should not claim to be noble in his eyes, and no death except on the battlefield is a honorable one. I am planning on having the teachings of Petros slowly change him as he sees different perspectives. But until he is shown that people are worthy changing for, he will be sceptical. @Anca, and Ryuko, I guess: The reason I say she is LE is that throughout the incarnations since I started playing in the early 90s, the Good/Evil axis is generally the motivation, and the Law/Chaos axis is generally the means through which you accomplish them. Good people strive to do good in whatever manner available. Neutral people act like normal human beings without a compulsion to do good, but still with the decency to not commit evil. And evil people seek to empower themselves, preferably at the cost of others, and feel no moral burden. So far I have not seen her do a single good thing (unless you count the diplomacy check to have the peasants step down) or had a single good thought, but she have upon several occasions displayed hatred and disdain for others, reacted explosively when asked to display a show of dedication to the cause, and shown a love for berating others. She has also defended her family from indirect verbal assault, even if she know they are the most heinous of scum. To me, she seems just as gleefully dancing after the words of dark gods as her family, never even questioning the dictations when she spits her bile, as a non-evil character should. And she doesn't even HAVE to follow the dogma of any gods, as she loses nothing for questioning their ways.
Tyrgrim gives a slight scoff at the mention of playing nice with the commoners "My station as a favored cleric of Gorum would be more than enough to have every man, woman and child that ever hoped to bear arms and be a full-fledged member of ulfen society to respect me without having to coddle them. I am not used to having to cater to the weak, but in order to achieve what Petros have put before us, I will have to learn the ways of the south, as much as I disagree with them." Looking at the pile of books, the large ulfen seems to contemplate something before turning to Fasir "I am not versed in history and lore, but since this is a process of arming ourselves to fight evil, as Petros sa succinctly put it, I can bless the efforts of those who do know those things."
Edit: Noticed Fasir calling for Urgma to cast said spell, so made it generic.
@Zaxarii: Tyrgrim never intimidated anyone except the first disrespectful commoner who gave him crap at the funeral. He is rude, abrasive and crude, and does not have a rank in diplomacy. But he never threatened anyone, and all the intimidate rolls beyond the silencing of the peasant was made by the "scion of civilized conversation". When he levels up, points will likely go into knowledge skills and diplomacy, to reflect the professor's teachings. Sadly, clerics have jack and poop for ranks, and I felt it would be silly to have a cleric of the god of war mechanically be a kindly sage rather than a keen beast that knows how to scare someone and patch someone up to keep fighting.
Tyrgrim can't help but smirk a bit at the "Ignorant fools" bit, as he fondly remembers his teacher, these words far more akin to how he spoke and carried himself than the will. As Fasir finishes, he slams his fist into his palm "My enemy has a name. Does anyone know anything of this cabal?"
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