Polymorphamory - The Love of Changing Form: A guide to shapeshifting


Advice

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If the OP does ever return and revise, I'd love to see a discussion of the psionic power, metamorphosis (does many of the same things, but laid out Chinese-menu style).

Good work.

-Red


Dotting.

The Exchange

has there been an update? or a new guide?

Dark Archive

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Resurrecting this thread simply to make note that the holy grail of the monstrous physique forms was introduced in the Beastiary 4. We finally have a humanoid form that lets you Pounce.

Introducing the Tikbalang!!
Not only does it come with pounce it also has reach and no natural attacks on it's hands making weapon use a great option.
For those weapon loving Magi this is by far the best form for them to invest in.


Just a heads up about the Kuru entry. In the guide it mentions that they're fast but when viewing the entry, it lists that they have a class level in Barbarian and a movement speed of 40 feet. I'd think you wouldn't get that when choosing them with Alter Self?


Okay, since I've been back in a PC game for a while to get me in the right headspace for thinking about this guide, because my backup character in that game might actually use some of this stuff, and because it's nice to see people's positive reactions to the guide, I'm going to try and do some more on it.

So the question is, What Do You Want?

Bestiary 4,obviously, but beyond that, what would be the most useful extra notes on forms, comparisons, or whatever?


Updated for Beastiary 4. Tell me if I've missed anything, forgotten anything, etc.

Think I'll take a look at the more fixed form shapeshifts next.


I understand it's slightly outside the scope of what you've already done (which is really awesome by the way), but I always have trouble finding which polymorph build/class entry is right for me. For example, I know arcanists get good features for polymorphing, but doesn't the terrible BAB hurt them too much?

I don't think anyone's made a guide that deals with which classes gets access to what spells or abilities and their relative strengths and weaknesses, so that's what I'd like honestly. Just my thoughts.


Have now added a look at Form of the Dragon and Elemental Body. Next to do is probably seeing what spells you get at what level, and comparing the pros and cons of each option.

NerfPlz wrote:

I understand it's slightly outside the scope of what you've already done (which is really awesome by the way), but I always have trouble finding which polymorph build/class entry is right for me. For example, I know arcanists get good features for polymorphing, but doesn't the terrible BAB hurt them too much?

I don't think anyone's made a guide that deals with which classes gets access to what spells or abilities and their relative strengths and weaknesses, so that's what I'd like honestly. Just my thoughts.

It's a good question. I may well have a look at that; I'm certainly planning to look at shapeshifting archetypes, and stuff like the BAB or other features of the classes will certainly be part of what I'll examine, thanks for putting that in my head.

With regards to the Arcanist question specifically… my response would be "Somewhat, but not overwhelmingly", at a guess. Yes, lower BAB = lower chance to hit. But you're getting good strength or Dex bonuses, and can have a host of other buffs. The big benefit of higher BAB is that you get more iterative attacks. But the majority of shapeshift forms go "Here's the attacks you get!" so those iteratives are pretty irrelevant.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

One thing I might add to the Elemental Form ability is the advantage of using Air Elemental versus Swarms. Despite the fact that they swarm occupies a 10' by 10' square the size is Tiny or smaller. This means that even at Small Air Elemental size you can whirlwind. At 20' high, and arguably 15', you can suck up an entire swarm and do damage to it constantly even moving it away from the party if needed.

Water elementals can do the same thing vs. swarms in water like the leech swarm.

Fire elementals have burn on every melee hit and when they are hit themselves. The save is just to determine if they catch fire. This form is also useful vs. swarms but if you can get multiple attacks in other ways (like flurry of blows) each hit deals additional fire damage.

Shapeshifters make excellent smugglers if you ever need a career choice!.


Have now added a comparison of the spells that are 'equivalent' in that they're the same spell level for a given class — e.g. Beast Shape I, Monstrous Physique I and Undead Anatomy I are all 3rd level spells, so a Wizard gets them all at 5th level, and a Bloodrager at 10th. I'm comparing which is the best, what advantages there are in the stat boosts, the granted abilities, and the actual forms themselves at each point.

It's quite long, but hopefully it's a useful resource for people, and I've tried to be as succinct as I can be in the Conclusion section for each set of spells. The comparison is towards the end of the guide, linked to from the same contents page as the rest of the stuff (which I may move forwards as I add more stuff to the guide.

Comparing the different forms, the advantage of Pounce over an extra attack, etc, means that these comparisons are probably more personal assessment and opinion than the rest of the guide; if there's anywhere you think I'm getting it wrong, let me know and I'll have a look, see if I agree with you, and adjust the guide if I do.

Haven't decided what I'm going to do next; probably either items & feats or looking at the multi-option or otherwise more unusual polymorphing spells, as doing the equivalents comparisons ended up taking quite a while, and it'd be nice to do something simpler and quicker.


Hey, is there a spell to take the form of an aberration? How about dragon creatures that aren't true dragons (like wyverns)? I don't think there is, I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss something.


A long time ago, a GM had lesser and greater versions of a number of spells, including alternate versions of the numerous polymorph spells. This also worked with stone flesh and several like spells.

Less advice than ideas for your GM...


Redblade8 wrote:
Hey, is there a spell to take the form of an aberration? How about dragon creatures that aren't true dragons (like wyverns)? I don't think there is, I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss something.

There's a third party spell to take on the form of an Aberration. It's in the thread above. Ditto oozes, though you can also do them through Wildshape as if they were magical beasts if you're a Cave Druid.

Don't think there's anything for creatures of the Dragon type that aren't True Dragons, but I doubt there's much there you couldn't already cover with Magical Beasts or Form of the Dragon.


Added a section comparing the various spells that let you cast your choice of some of the core shapeshifts, and/or that adjust how they work or what you do with them.

Most aren't that great unless you really want flexibility, but there's a few good ones.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So happy to see this still going!


Added a look at the archetypes and other class options (bloodlines etc). Nothing fantastically amazing, but a few okay ones, and a clever trick in the use of certain races ability to count as higher level for Oracle Revelations.

Have also shifted the table of contents to the start of it, now there's rather more there than just the links to the forms for the different spells.


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Thanks for this. Just started a campaign so we're still at level 1, but 2 druids in the party. I'll make sure this guide makes it into their hands.

I like the fact that you point out the value of Small size beyond just being small; Stealth +4. There's also a +1 Size bonus to hit which at low levels is a good thing.

I also was very appreciative you point out the Movement types gained in the form. Flight is flight, everyone knows that one but at low levels give Climb another look. If your GM is like me, sets the game in a forest and has lots of low obstacles like boulders, rubble and scree you know you're going to be moving 1/2 speed and making a lot of DC 5 Climb checks. If you pick a form with Climb speed, suddenly you're moving THAT speed and Run/Charge is still an option; not bad in the early levels of the game.


Just saw guide! Great job. Is it possible to include a section on what creatures provide what poisons and number of required saves?


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Just saw guide! Great job. Is it possible to include a section on what creatures provide what poisons and number of required saves?

Once poison becomes available, I do usually give general descriptions of what type and if it's multiple saves. Given that every creature has a link to its d20pfsrd entry, it didn't seem necessary to go into exact detail, though if there are arguments otherwise, I'll certainly listen.


Hey. Just checking out your polymorph guide. I like it.

One thing you might have overlooked is a reference in FotD2 on the addition of a tail slap. You mention six attacks later when you do your comparisons, but you don't mention it when you're talking about it in the first place.

Also, I'd like to see your take on Polymorph Any Object. I know some might use it to make their preferred form (Semi)Permanent.

Thanks for the hard work.


Oterisk wrote:

Hey. Just checking out your polymorph guide. I like it.

One thing you might have overlooked is a reference in FotD2 on the addition of a tail slap. You mention six attacks later when you do your comparisons, but you don't mention it when you're talking about it in the first place.

Good spot, thanks! Have updated that bit. I'm very much after people spotting where I've got stuff wrong, as with so many different monsters, spells and stats there's going to be stuff where it happens.

Oterisk wrote:
Also, I'd like to see your take on Polymorph Any Object. I know some might use it to make their preferred form (Semi)Permanent.

The guide as it stands is an okay starting point for working out possible things to become, but beyond that, Polymorph Any Object is going to massively massively depend on your GM, what they want to let you get away with, particularly given things like 'class' aren't that clear in PF, so I'm not sure how much help I can be

Oterisk wrote:
Thanks for the hard work.

It's nice to know its apopreciated!


Have now added a section on magic items; thanks to those who offered suggestions on this and on archetypes and class stuff when I asked in another thread.

The items are mostly a few things that give useful bonuses or special capabilities, plus a couple that add more options to Druid Wildshape.

The main thing I now want to do is go through feats, both the ones that specifically relate to shapeshifting, but also those that work well with certain forms (e.g. the Vital Strike tree and forms that have particularly large damage dice on their attacks).

After that, I might actually get around to going through the aquatic options…


Added feats; not trying to reinvent the wheel and tell people what are generally good combat feats, just stuff that specifically interacts with shapeshifting, or is particularly good with some aspect of it (e.g. Vital Strike, Flyby Attack).


draxar wrote:

Added a look at the archetypes and other class options (bloodlines etc). Nothing fantastically amazing, but a few okay ones, and a clever trick in the use of certain races ability to count as higher level for Oracle Revelations.

Have also shifted the table of contents to the start of it, now there's rather more there than just the links to the forms for the different spells.

As a Bloodrager with the Abyssal Bloodline you get Demonic Bulk

"At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren't humanoid."

Also there is the Cleric/Druid Plant sub Domain Growth.
You get Enlarge Person as a swift action and Enlarge Person and Righteous Might as Domain Spells.

I realize that these are not "Polymorph" in the sense that you are still Humanoid, but they are similar to Giant Form so I thought I would mention them.
There can be advantages to growing large while retaining your equipment.

* Great resource by the way, thank you.


Xah Doom wrote:
draxar wrote:

Added a look at the archetypes and other class options (bloodlines etc). Nothing fantastically amazing, but a few okay ones, and a clever trick in the use of certain races ability to count as higher level for Oracle Revelations.

Have also shifted the table of contents to the start of it, now there's rather more there than just the links to the forms for the different spells.

As a Bloodrager with the Abyssal Bloodline you get Demonic Bulk

"At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren't humanoid."

Also there is the Cleric/Druid Plant sub Domain Growth.
You get Enlarge Person as a swift action and Enlarge Person and Righteous Might as Domain Spells.

I realize that these are not "Polymorph" in the sense that you are still Humanoid, but they are similar to Giant Form so I thought I would mention them.
There can be advantages to growing large while retaining your equipment.

* Great resource by the way, thank you.

Glad it's useful

I can certainly see where you're coming from on those two spells/capabilities. However, both are fairly much 'what you see is what you get, and neither option is later giving you other shapeshift stuff — the reason I originally made the guide is because the Polymorph spells base what they give you on both the spells but also the specific capabilities of what you turn into, so there's a lot of work to compare your options.

If they stacked with the polymorph spells, or if they gave you a bit more choice or more utility options, I'd probably add them in, but as it stands, I just don't feel I'd be adding that much — I ended up adding the Elemental and Dragon forms because of the choices you have to make between different options within them, because of the broad array of abilities you can get from them, and because they're something it makes sense to assess alongside the the other shapeshifts, I had a look at them.

Whereas Enlarge Person I'd just say "It's level one, it gives you a little bit of bonus. Righteous Might I could potentially assess it compared to shapeshifts of the same level, but beyond a stat bonus comparison anyone can do, I'm not going to say anything that useful.

Scarab Sages

What about combining the Transmuter Wizard plus a single level of a martial class to go into the Eldritch Knight prestige class to overcome the wizard's normally sucktastic BAB? Sure, you lose two caster levels to get into it (the martial level and the first level of the p-class), but then you have 9 straight levels of full BAB and spellcasting ability. Outside of the Transformation (which prevents spellcasting), I'm not seeing any other spells that increase BAB.

And waterbreathing and swim speeds are also high on my list of things to get from the various polys, as we're doing skull & shackles and keep diving down to ship wrecks. Having good underwater forms is going to get increasing useful I think.

Still, this is a great starting point for me in the current campaign as I'm finally hitting the cool shapechanging spells. Thanks for putting it up.


I use this so much Draxar, thank you for all your hard work.

If you are interested in play by post, please check out www.woldiangames.com

Main reason in this.

Shapeshifter Prestige Class

Its got a super easy entry and it caps with you getting the Supernatural and other special abilities of the creatures you assume. I check your guide daily for the most part, and it's made this class a blast to play. (Even though it comes with the drawback of all non-transmutation spells taking 2 slots to cast)


Raise dead on this thread.

For Beast Shape III, a Voonith is probably one of the best magical beast forms there is for an attacker. Bite and 4 claws, pounce, and reach on the bite, plus aquatic and a swim speed. I have used it before and it is NUTS.


If you don't want to spring for the no-air Ioun Stone, the Air Breathing Spell, or a Necklace of Adaptation, consider Wildshaping into a Megaraptor or Allosaurus instead.

My favorite Monstrous Humanoid to Polymorph into would be the 4-armed Sahaugin because 4 claws. Also, remember that when you Polymorph into a Monstrous Humanoid instead of an Animal, you keep your armor and gear, and that's nice.

Dark Archive

Just adding in a suggestion: The Psychic bloodline for Sorcerer polyorphamorists allows you to dodge those pesky spellcasting restrictions while polymorphed, so there's that. It also lets you wear plate if you don't care about skill checks with ACP or attack rolls (and tbh you can just polymorph if you do).

Razmiran (False) Priest has some anti-synergy with the Psychic bloodline as the 9th level Psychic power gives you a pile of extra spells known. Otherwise it's pretty sweet.

Liberty's Edge

A new good large sized monstrous humanoid for Monstrous physique 4 is the Anunnaki(B5).
Is gives you res 20 to acid, cold, electricity and sonic. Oh and +8 vs poison. And it has 5 Natural attacks so should be okay combat-wise at the level where you can get access to it.


Possibly dumb question - as a four armed gargoyle, could one choose to use a weapon in two of the hands instead of use the claw attacks? Would that make all natural attacks secondary then?

Liberty's Edge

Timdog wrote:
Possibly dumb question - as a four armed gargoyle, could one choose to use a weapon in two of the hands instead of use the claw attacks? Would that make all natural attacks secondary then?

You could indeed use say a longsword in one of your hands. And your other natural attacks would then be secondary if you make a full attack with the longsword and the three remaining claw attacks.

So your full attack sequence on someone with BAB 6 would be:
Full bab attack(longsword), -5 bab attack(longsword, 3 claw attacks as secondary natural attacks.

Not always worth it I would say, but keeping say an cold iron or silver backup weapon could definitely be a thing.


Dotting for later. Thanks for the guide!


Big help, thanks. I've been wanting to play an arcane caster who relies on polymoprh and goes to town in melee that way, and this guide helps tons. I'll post the build for help once i get further along.

Does anyone else feel like they made the spells a step to weak though? like we should get what we get at 3rd level at second, what we get at 4th at 3rd etc? It feels like the poly spells are the way less powerful option for casters and that's too bad - it really pushes you away from making a viable build. To me.


It's a reaction to the old Druidzilla of 3.5, I believe.


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Mixing Greek and Latin roots? Boo. Should be polymorphilia.

Scarab Sages

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Should be polymorphilia.

Ugh, no thanks. I don't know what druids do in the bedroom and I don't want to know.


I’ve been trying to make a melee arcane caster who relies on polymorph. This is my attempt. I am fully aware that it’s not the strongest build, I just want to know I can make THIS character better – a pure caster arcanist would be way more powerful, I get that. I just want a polymorph-based build and this is the best I’ve been able to come up with. This is a homebrew campaign btw but nothing 3rd party – basically, if its not on the pazio website it’s not allowed. Additionally, only one archetype is allowed on each character and he doesn’t like traits.

I plan to focus on spells that don’t involve saves such as shocking grasp so I don’t need a stupid high Int, but it does get up to level 9 spells at level 20.

Sorcerer/Brown Fur Arcanist/Dragon Disciple

Human
Dual talent

Starting stats (rolled)
13 14 10 17 12 12.

I was going to array them like so

Str 17 +2 human = 19
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 14 + 2 human = 16
Cha 12
Wis 10

Planning to take a +1 dex at level 4, then probably Int at 8, then str every other level.

Progression plan

Level 1 Sorcerer – dragon bloodline
Level 2  Level 5 Brown fur arcanist. First exploit is bloodline development
Level 6  9 Dragon disciple
Level 10  onward Brown fur arcanist

Levels 1-4 rely on enlarge person + dragon claws (only get 4 rounds per day, this is the largest limitation, although between casting shocking grasp and the fact that my GM almost never strings together multiple combats at lower levels, I think im ok – I’ll be buffing and casting for multiple rounds so I don’t actually need the claws that much, I think). Plan to cast shocking grasp and deliver with dragon claws for extra damage.

Level 5 opens up alter self. I was thinking I could use catfolk form for claws if the 4 rounds per day just isn’t cutting it. Question: can you enlarge person on top of alter self? Regardless, I can’t see how levels 5-8 are just not going to suck. How I wish they stuck a decent polymorph spell here.

Level 8 finally the build starts to not suck with monstrous physique opening up.

Hoping the high strength will help offset the bad bab and low damage dice. At level 1, it will start at 19 + 2 when I enlarge. Level 4 gets another +2 added via the Brown fur special exploit. Level 7 gets another +2, as does level 9 from dragon disciple. Assuming a belt of +str shows up around level 6-7, I should be having about a str of 25 as of level 7, 27 by level 9. I think with monstrous physiques options for many natural attacks, I’ll be at least respectable at that level.

I plan on taking the exploits that let me cast while shapeshifted and change the shapeshift spell on the fly (I forget the specific names).

Feats are where I’m most stuck. I’m thinking weapon focus claws at level 1 to help with the low bab. Perhaps just dodge at level 3 since I won’t be an AC monster (although all the natural pluses from both bloodline and disciple will help). Perhaps combat casting as I do figure I’ll be casting touch spells defensively in combat before slashing people with my claws. With my low bab and multiple attacks, I’m not sure power attack is a good idea. Suppose I could take meta magic feats to make my touch spells hit harder. Advice?


Has bestiary 5 been added into the guide yet?


@Timdog I'm not sure but I think arcanists count as spontaneous casters. They get less spells per day than a sorcerer in fact. You could explain that to your gm. That might make your character more powerful. A handy combo is quicken spell and true strike. Other than that, looks like it's in good shape.


Yebng wrote:
Has bestiary 5 been added into the guide yet?

Not yet. Hadn't been playing Pathfinder for a while,, plus I tend to use d20pfsrd's spreadsheet for checking, and that didn't appear to have been updated with it.

Looks like the Pathfinder Community one has though, so when I have the time, I'll go through and add anything useful from the new stuff in.


draxar wrote:
Yebng wrote:
Has bestiary 5 been added into the guide yet?

Not yet. Hadn't been playing Pathfinder for a while,, plus I tend to use d20pfsrd's spreadsheet for checking, and that didn't appear to have been updated with it.

Looks like the Pathfinder Community one has though, so when I have the time, I'll go through and add anything useful from the new stuff in.

For Monstrous Physique, I'd recommend checking out Bestiary 5's Gegenees. It seems like it was maybe supposed to be a humanoid (giant) but as it was published, it is a huge monstrous humanoid (giant) with six 2d6 slam attacks.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
MageHunter wrote:
@Timdog I'm not sure but I think arcanists count as spontaneous casters. They get less spells per day than a sorcerer in fact. You could explain that to your gm. That might make your character more powerful. A handy combo is quicken spell and true strike. Other than that, looks like it's in good shape.

No, arcanists do not count for dragon disciple prerequisites.

The PrC specifically lists "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation." (emphasis mine) Arcanists, although they cast spontaneously, still prepare their spells for the day.

@Timdog:
You might be better off with bard (arcane duelist) 1 (for the free Arcane Strike feat)/arcanist (brown fur transmuter) 4/dragon disciple 4/arcanist +X. Arcane Armor Training can be a useful feat for low- to mid-level, until gaining 5th-level spells (retrain for Quicken Spell at that point).

If you want more combat ability (and are OK without Share Transmutation and fewer/less powerful exploits), skald (spell warrior) 1/arcanist (brown fur transmuter) 4/dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight 10/arcanist +1 can substantially improve BAB (and still gain 9th-level spells at 20th character level).

Alternately, ranger (wild hunter) 2 (select Aspect of the Beast/Claws of the Beast as the combat style feat)/wizard (Transmutation/Shapechange school) 6/eldritch knight 10/wizard +2 is a very strong option, although not quite as flexible with spell use as an arcanist.


May I just say: this title makes me think this is a kama sutra where you try to find new ways to bend that much. Why take 15 levels of monk when you can just turn into something that lacks that inconvenient skeleton?

EDIT: a note- elemental forms may be able to use weapons. The subtype gets proficencies if they are humanoid shapes, and the stat blocks just don't use them. You obviously don't get the subtype proficiencies, but that is still ample evidence of proper hands.

So basically, this can turn the spell into a poor man's giant form. You can use weapons (maybe the scimitar for crits, or the long spear that hits like a greatsword once large), but you lack the convenient 'your equipment scales with you' or 'worn equipment doesn't fuse with you' features.

That doesn't mean it can't be done, at least by druids. You just need weapons suited for the form. A large scimitar that you just put on in the morning like everyone else does with their weapons. It is just that 'getting dressed' means you become a bit mass of elemental matter. With druids at least, you can make it into your default form.

This approach is actually rather in line with the suggestions of the guide- nice, simple, high utility forms. With reach+2handed weapons, you will be fine for damage compared to the natural attack forms. So just turning wildshape into a mechanic that makes you large, grants special abilities, and makes you immune to a lot of stuff... seems fine really. And it is flavorful to just be a giant statue of a man.


... okay, looks like neither D20pfsrd nor Pathfinder Community have a spreadsheet with the stuff from Beastiary 5 in it, which is the way I've always gone through stuff before to easily go "Show me all the Medium and Large Animals", and then for updates "Show me all the Tiny Undead from Beastiary 4. What's that, there still aren't any? Guess that makes that line of that spell a bit pointless then!"

Anyone know if there's any sites doing such a spreadsheet? Assuming it's still open content/okay for them to do so.

Grand Lodge

draxar wrote:
If anyone's got any feedback on this it'd be very much appreciated — anything I've missed, any mistakes, and any suggestions for improving it. I've a few thoughts on that myself, which I've stuck at the end of the document, but I'd also appreciate other people's input.

Love the document. Just recently acquired the ability to create the Monstrous Physique extract as an investigator, so being able to read your document that had already broken down relevant options and how they applied was a bonus. I'm curious...

How would Monstrous Physique combine with Enlarge Person in your opinion? Example: Gargoyle becomes large with all the listed changes that Enlarge Person would entail in addition to the Gargoyle changes? Just curious. Would love to see an Enlarged Large form or Enlarged Huge form. Or even better, an Enlarged, Hasted, Displaced Gargoyle. Shenanigans.

Thanks!

Grand Lodge

draxar wrote:

... okay, looks like neither D20pfsrd nor Pathfinder Community have a spreadsheet with the stuff from Beastiary 5 in it, which is the way I've always gone through stuff before to easily go "Show me all the Medium and Large Animals", and then for updates "Show me all the Tiny Undead from Beastiary 4. What's that, there still aren't any? Guess that makes that line of that spell a bit pointless then!"

Anyone know if there's any sites doing such a spreadsheet? Assuming it's still open content/okay for them to do so.

I can provide documentation of the Monstrous Physique relevant entries from Bestiary 5 if you're interested.

email me at jameslkight(at)gmail.com and I'll zip it to you.

JK


Imbicatus wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Should be polymorphilia.
Ugh, no thanks. I don't know what druids do in the bedroom and I don't want to know.

Well now, I can't think of anything else!

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