Tim Kosinski's page

I'm looking to start a group dedicated to playing the Runelord's Adventure path using the Pathfinder RPG Alpha and Beta rules sets in the Boston area. Give me a shout if your interested.

The Real Troll wrote:

If you can spend $5000 to purchase a license agreement, it tells me that you don't believe you can sell enough product to make up the $5000. If your selling memberships to the "customize a dungeon for me" club what does that say?

Well, Open Design gets a big troll. And I actually AGREE with you: I don't think that Open Design WILL sell enough product to make $5000 back. That was the whole point of the donations for the license; it makes 4E content possible early. Because GAMERS wanted the 4E material to appear in Kobold Quarterly, they ponied up for the license.

The Real Troll wrote:

Scam was a strong word to use. I'd say that Nick and Wolfgang are just taking money from individuals who are desparate to be either "in the know" in terms of industry insider information (4.0 OGL begging) or are too lazy to create their own material (please join our semi personalized adventure club).

Uh, I'd hardly call the past patrons desperate or lazy. Chris Pramas, Ed Greenwood, Steven Schend, Phil Reed, Ari Marmell, and other professionals have all been patrons. It's more a way to have some fun.

I'd recommend that you simply not join, if you don't think it's worth your while.

And maybe this discussion should move over to the Kobold Quarterly boards? Yes?

I appreciate your honestly Wolfgang. Your patrons get what they pay for. To me, thats not much, but to them it may be alot. The troll will cease and disist.

Troll!

NO

Given what you know so far, are you planning to:

A) Convert! I am ready for a new D&D.

B) 3.5 or Bust! I'm sticking with the man what brought me.

C) We'll see. Need more information.

D) Other.

Please pick one. Feel free to elaborate, but please stick to one reply each for this thread. I'm not interested in fights or refutations of incorrect points or baiting or whatever.

I want to know how you, at this moment in time, feel about the idea of converting to a new edition of the game.

I expect that people's answers will change over time. This is not the last time I will ask this question, so we'll have a chance to gauge the issue as we go along.

So, given what you know so far, you plan to: _B__ - 3.5 has everything I need to have fun and run a campaign____________.

Sebastian, you kill me. I have to say I am laughing my ass off. You are very witty.

Sebastian, do you have kids, a wife, or a girlfriend? If you do, do you like to swear in their presence? Do you swear at them.

I suspect you live in a cave and watch porn all day when your not gaming.

I am not an advocate of Paizo censoring its material or any other magazine for that matter. I guess from my perspective it was a request. A request that Paizo be more careful with the language and content in their magazine so as to keep it from a young impressionable audience. Eric's response is that their standard to provide curses and nipple shots in their magazine. My answer is, I will be hesitant to purchse their products as I don't believe it is appropriate for the company I share this material with which includes both children and adults. I often forget that the vast majority are men for whom showing sensitivity to women, children, the elderly, and in many cases their peers is not a priority. Offend away. Funny how so many gamers have moved to online gaming. You can offend anyone in cyberspace and theres nothing they can do.

Eric, I'm sad to see that you believe that this language is accpetable in a periodical that you guided for so long. I have always admired your work, but I question yur judgement. I have to assume from your comments that the gaming community should indulge in vulgar language where it makes a point and push for more nipples and busty babes. And everyone wonders why there are so few female gamers. I've gotten the answer I was looking for which was to determine what standards Paizo will use for the language in futures print products. I look forward to seeing goblins referred to in an encounter narrative by a dwarf as "Those s~*# covered goblins come out of the dumps and steel anything they can from Sandpoint."

Wow sounds alot like that nappy headed ho team from Rutgers.

Too bad the goblins can't defend themselves. They looked so cute the way Wayne Reynolds drew them.

Darkbard, just because expletives are not offensive to you, they may be offensive to others. Do you believe that it is OK for kids to swear? Should we teach children that it is OK to swear. I started playing dungeons and dragons as a child. Part of the reason I was able to, was that my parents thought that it was an acceptable game and although it was unconventional, it was a fantasy game that did not contain content that my parents found offencive. I would probably not be playing now if it I hadn't as a child. Where do you think gamers come from? Usually its children who start playing the game and grow up with it. This is why WoTC has produced the miniatures game. To draw children to Dungeons and Dragons. They know as most gamers know, that 18 year old adults often don't begin playing D&D and associated publications unless they were exposed to it in their youth.

I am very concerned by your comments. I get the sense that you don;t have children or are even married and lack the imagination to use unoffensive language to enjoy a story. Neither Tolkein nor C.S. Lewis used offensive language in their stories and both sets of works were very powerful. If the story also included incest and the exploitation of children would that be acceptable to you? Is that the type of literature that you appreciate because it is for a "mature" and "enlightened" individual like your self? Is that the audience that future gaming material should cater to? I don't beleive Paizo or WoTC would have as much sales as they do now for that crowd. Do you want to limit the audience for gaming to adults?

I have lots of brains.

A person in a product management roles first responsibility to be be in touch with a consumer. To get "into their skin and experience what they desire" if you will. The best selling products in the marketplace were more often then not develope by individuals who address the problems, wants, and needs of their consumers. Apple thoroughly researched the Ipod in this manner and developed a best selling product because it addressed their consumers needs. Google has done the same with their search engine as it solves the business problem of marketers directing attention to their products rather then yahoo's focus of making a better search engine for the public. To come to these conclusions apple engaged their prospective consumers through focus groups and market analysis. Google approached and created partnerships with their source of revenue - marketers.

Intially I believe that the D&D brand did this by creating the "Living" format and plastic miniatures. Unfortunatly, they have overextending these mature products and degraded the actual perfornce and relevance of the orignal in their quest for cash. "The candle that burns the brightest, burns out the quickest." This is what has happened with the D&D brand. In a quest for more money, the brand has been diminished and no longer addresses the need or desire of the original consumer. I can only explain this in one of two manners.

The first is that in an effort to make more money the consumer was ignored and promised something that was both not desired and frankly, preyed on their weaknesses (consumers have weakenesses). If thats the case then Wotc management is not incompetant, just greedy. I believe this is worse. In these types of situations a firm sucks as much money as they can out of the brand before selling it to a sympathetic indivual who remembers what the brand once meant. This most often happens with sports teams and sentimental producers like Harley Davidsons and Lionel Trains.

The second is that Wotc managment has little to no interaction with the marketplace. That is often the case when management is so confident in their abilities to produce what consumers desire that they don't solicite feedback on what they are providing. They simply expect the consumer to consume regardless of quality. This is egregious behavior and is the type of thing that can follow a brand manager from one job to another. Its like leaving your child in the emergency room of a hospital with a borken leg and then going out with your friends for a beer. This is simply deriliction of duty on the part of Wotc management. A sign of this type of behavior is managers claiming to be something they are not to seem like they understand the market when they truly don't.

Then again this could all be a conspiracy like the olc Coke, new coke marketing ploy.

The simple truth is that Liz claims to be someone she is not.

She is not:

An avid gamer
In touch with the pen and paper role playing consumer
The gamer community

Check out her profile ar variety - http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=cc_links&type=btsall

here is a quote: "I'm responsible for anything to do with the Dungeons & Dragons brand, including publishing role-playing games (RPG), novels, and accessory products for RPG - such as prepainted plastic miniatures," says Liz Schuh, Senior Director of Marketing and Publishing"

I think that pretty much sums up that she is the one in charge over there. If she's not steering the ship, then who is?

FH you make a good point, but I would assume that a gamer that works for Wotc would have gamed with at least some of the Paizo staff that monitors this board or would take in an RPGA event once in a while. I play LG on the east coast and people have seen my posts and written me about them. I don't see why someone who is in her position would have little exposure to gamers on this board unless she was exagerating her gaming experience. If I put a similar post for instance on gaming stories of experiences with Gary Gygaz, Monte Cook, or Eric Mona I would expect to receive many responses. Liz claims to be an avid gamer - I'd just looking for proof and thought this community could shed some light on it. So far its been pretty dark as in Far Realms dark.

I was wondering if anyone was watching this board for language and such. I'm not sure it was necessary to remove the comment, but then again you can't have discourse if the majority of the people on the board aren't thick skinned. I'm sure Liz gets paid enough to feel secure she's doing the right thing over at Hasbro/Wotc. Maybe if the numbers for D&D look good they'll move her up to product management for weeble wobbles. Preschoolers can't post on message boards or fill out surveys so she won't have to worry about feedback on her products. Then again that may be a bad move as her first idea would be to make them sqaure and sell them as doggie toys.

I think I make a valid point. If she claims to be a gamer lets hear from someone who has gamed with her. I highly doubt we'll get many posts to that effect. I think it is important for everyone to understand who is steering the ship over at Wotc for the Dungeons and Dragons product. From what I have seen so far she grants interviews with individuals who describe traditional pen and paper gamers as luddites, has not articulated a coherent plan for the future of both Dungeon and Dragon magazines, and makes claims in her biography that I believe are undfounded. I beg this audience to try and prove me wrong.

Liz Schuh is the marketing manager for Dungeons and Dragons products for Wotc. She is the genius who has decided to pull the plug on both Dungeon and Dragon magazines. She claims to be an avid gamer in both her profile on the Wizards.com and press releases in which she announces the end of Dragon and Dungeon magazines. Has anyone out there ever gamed with her? If so please share your stories with the rest of us? I suspect they will be few and far between.

I think the term you used "still born" is appropriate. This thing they want to create won't even get out of the womb. Liz is flailing and has no ideas to generate revenue for the D&D brand over at Wotc. She's out off her league and even though she claims to have gaming experience I highly doubt she does. I'm startin a new thread - Tell us about a gaming experience with Liz.

The last couple posts bring up a great point. How does WOTC expect to create an online version of Dragon and Dungeon Magazine that is similar to the present offering? Obviously it won't be protable. I read most D&D content when I am on a trip for work, at a con between games, or when I have spare time that is not in front of a PC (usually when my wife is using it). I am also curious as to how long the cotent created for this online format will be available before you can no longer view it? Will they make it availabe in pdf format for download for a limited time (unlikely), will they allow you access to all content as long as your a subscriber (again unlikely since you could just subscribe for a month, pull the content, unsubscribe and come back if your interested again), or are they going to create a sort of space for you wher you receive content for the moment you subscribe and pay for past content to put in your space (this option is really bad because as all of us know anything online can be copied and this will only promote the behavior as the cost of buying the content would be restrictive).

My two cents.

Tim

WOTC really has no plan for the future Dragon and Dungeon content. Liz Schuh really doesn't have a good grasp on the gaming market and it shows in not only the way she responded to questions in the interview, but the way in which Dungeons and Dragons product have been produced in the last 2 years. The product has become a massive amount of content that is neither cohesive or organized properly. Because of this a second market for game worlds that use the core books as a base with content that builds off it for that setting is finding a niche. Paizo will find that Pathfinder will be rather successful because of their high standard for production. The art and content of their products is far superior to that of WOTC. I will no longer buy WOTC products. I have gone out and sold all my books on ebay after I memorized them ;)

There is no need to expand the rules any further. Liz Schuh should be let go and replaced with a product management team that will go out and find what gamers are really looking for. I know one of the things they are not looking for is more rules to complicate the game. I get the sense that Liz Schuh simply views Dragon and Dungeon magazines as marketing tools to sell more D&D related products and that it no cost effective to create that material. This is very short sighted. I hope Liz learns the hard way that both Dragon and Dungeon magazines were part of what kept the gaming community informed and that online content will be perceived as a cheap, poor man's version of the originals. One should also keep in mind that most periodicals that go to an online only format never reape any financial benefit from subscriptions and more often then not the subscriver base leaks the content to the public for free in some way, shape, or form.

Liz Schuh - YOU SUCK!

One other thing. I chose to convert my subscriptions for Dragon and Dungeon to Pathfinder - do I get the player guide for free with that?

17.99 a month for an adventure is a little steep considering Dungeon and Dragon magazines cost a combined 6.66 a month if you have subscriptions to both magazines. It might be wise to offer a bundling option for people to get the volumes on a quarterly, semi annual, or even annual basis to save on shipping. Frankly, I get the feeling that you'll be able to sell the first series and that the rest will wind up as Game Master specials or modules. If anything this is Paizo's way of attempting to get former subscribers used to the Game Mastery products and format in the hopes of building business with a new model. I'm not knocking it as I think it will work and I believe that the game mastery products are of a far higher quality then anything WOTC puts out. I;m just conerned that the price is high and the product is not as close in content to what Dragon and Dungeon originally offered to create a sustainable business.

Tim

Kalin, you got what I was trying to say. 4.0 will have to be radical departure from 3.5 for people to want to buy it. That said, the rules would be licensed and thereby phasing out 3.5 by being different. I believe that this will kill dungeons and dragons sales for them. They are counting on converting miniatures and card playing kids into D&D players. It may work out for WOTC, but the game will never be the same. The rpga will suffer mightily. It is a volunteer organization and most of those who volunteer will get frustrated if the rules change again, that is unless they are getting free books as I've suspected for quite some time. Anyway good bye Dragon and Dungeon. You'll be missed. Lookout Living Greyhawk - your next.

There is one other avenue to consider and I think that Goodman Games "dungeon crawl classics" series and the new "pathfinder" series are on to. WOTC is going to kill the OGL license with 4.0. I'm betting WOTC will be the only ones printing any type of 4.0 material and the reason is simple, the quality and content of their products is subpar and others can do it better and are making money. OGL will still be available and much in the same way Kenzer produces Hackmaster loosely based on 1st edition, Paizo, Goodman, et. al. will continue to produce 3.5 content related products.

Think about it. What do you need 4.0 for? There isn't even a reason to create it. 3.5 works fine for D&D. The game mechanics are solid and if you don't like a rule then you can simply choose to ignore or change it. If you play LG your out of luck, but your going to be out of luck anyway since LG won't make it with a 4.0 conversion. Eberron will still be around and suck and I think that WOTC is putting all their eggs into that basket. They should learn from TSR's failure and not go that way.

I suggest that you vote with your dollars. Sell your WOTC stuff on ebay and get copies of the pdf's for free online. After all WOTC wants you to go digital - do it!

How much will each issue cost with shipping if you subscribe month to month? How much is it without the month to month discount?

If this is all true then the writing is on the wall for Living Greyhawk. If you polled LG players I'm sure you would find that most are tired of the unending series of books that are being released and can't keep spending enough to keep pace. I've tried to set up numerous gamedays at retail locations and am constantly told that they don't offer the space for LG because the LG players don't spend. It's all miniatures now. 4.0 is on the horizon and I'm sure it will cater to the ranks of new gamers created by the miniatures game. The old school players that supported the hobby for years are going to be pushed out. Anyone who's ever even heard of Greyhawk will be pushed underground. It was a good 30 year run.

I have had nothing but great experiences with Paizo regarding not only their products, but Dragon and Dungeon magazines. On two separate occasions for one reason or another I didn't receive an issue. I contacted the Paizo staff and within a week I received the issue I was missing. Thanks Guys!

I plan on subscribing to the Pathfinder series. The adventure paths was always one of my favorite features from Dungeon Magazine and frankly, along with the comics and articles at the end of the magazine would be the only parts that I would take from Dungeon anyway. I can see that Wayne Reynolds is providing the artwork so I can already tell this will be a quality product. I can't wait for the first installment.