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Thanks. I'm not impressed. The Dungeon Crawl Classics line is no more. These mods don't even look like the old D&D mods. I've collected all of the 3.5 mods (1-52) and have no plans to purchase any of Goodman's 4.0 stuff. Troll
I like the idea of doing a book for each monster type. That way you can tie in their flavor in Golarion with how they interact with each other. I suggest going giants next, then dragons, magical beasts, fey, devils, demons, yugoloths (if you can do that), archons, celestials, and other outsides (perhaps by alignment). Toll! Pathfinder rocks!
I will be purchasing it as well and know of at least 4 othere who will too.
GREYHAWK!
Paizo is not sticking with 3.5, in August of 2009 they will be releasing their own system seemingly to be geared towards those that don't like 3.5 but also don't like 4e. So what are your plans now, if you intend to stick with 3.5? I'll go with Paizo and purchase their Pathfinder products.
Who the heck are you? Troll!
I think her got canned. The 4.0 strategy is seriously flawed and I think more then one of the Hasbro Execs caught on when they finally got around to figuring out what was going on at WoTC. Here's how Loren and co. probably got caught mismanaging their assets (brand, talent-or lack thereof, and general resources) 1. The digitial iniative is definately a problem for WoTC. It's never good when you have to adventise to the community you want to sell to that you need a lead developer. I also think that the Hasbro deal with EA probably exposed alot of the technical design, strategy, and extremely poor implentation of present (DnD Insider) and past (Temple of Elemental Evil) technical projects. Technical project often have high costs, but huge rewards if managed properly. I think Loren and co failed miserably here. 2. 4.0 is simply desperate. The game wasn't broken. You don't see monopoly being redone. The properties may change for local tasted, but the rules are pretty much the same. 4.0 is reinventing the wheel and has allowed semi-competitors that were once in the fold and contributing to the bottom line (Paizo) to reinvent themselves as serious competion and a threat to the bottom line. 3. The GSL is an issue. Why isn't it out yet? More then likely because Hasbro did not approve whatever version Loren and co came up with. The new guy will have to hammer it out and more then likely it will be very rigid. It may not come out at all. I think the new guy has to decide. 4. The delivery of 4.0 is another issue. Maybe the time to develope the product has been underestimated. My bet is that the 4.0 products will be release in the raw. The rules will work, but won't be all that great and will need an errata in the first six months. The smart thing would be to delay the product, but now that Paizo has made its announcement, WoTC will have to release on time or lose an even bigger chunk of market share. They will risk alienating customers later with a poor product today. That may at least be salvagable. This is just my two cents on the D&D side of things. He was, after all, the president of WoTC which also covers magic and a number of other products. Maybe they felt he was minmanaging those as well. There was the fiasco with kids purchasing tons of "digital cards" online who's parent demanded that the cards were actually provided. Trolllllllllllllllll!
However, I hope you join the rest of us on the dark side by the middle of 2009, or I fear that you'll be selling your otherwise excellent books to an ever-dwindling set of die-hard 3.5ers. And I don't want that for my sake, or for Paizo's. Or an ever increasing number of Pathfincer RPG players.
I thought you left?
I think Hasbro's reaction was to can WoTC's CEO.
I guess you didn't believe me the first time when I said I'm for real. Toll!
I wasn't interested in taking the time to respond to your lengthy post if it was simply a drive-by troll. As such, I was waiting for you to respond before I got back to your original post. I am not sitting in front of my computer at 8:20 P.M. on a Friday feverishly clicking refresh to see if you'd gotten back to me. Moderating is .00000000001% of my daily job duties--my apologies if I raised your conspiratorial hackles by not immediately appeasing your need to get a response out of me. Your wayyyyyy cooler then me. If I want to be cool like you, what do I need to do master? BTW - My last post didn't make it. So the terror begins. Troll
...Removing posts is like kidnapping political dissidents in the middle of the night and silencing them... You may not like my comparison and I'm sorry if I offended you. Next time I will try not to be so overly dramatic. ......................Troll 
Removing posts is like kidnapping political dissidents in the middle of the night and silencing them.Hyperbole. I think I see some of my posts on that site. Troll, Troll, Troll, SMURF!
Maybe the moderators should start giving each post a rating like G, PG, PG-13, and R. That way you can filter the messages to make you feel better about yourself when you read generic posts without conviction.
People vote with their dollars and Paizo, like a politician, is betting that there are more voters for 4.0. Of course, like a politician they don't want to take any criticism for holding an unpopular position with their constituents.They're a business. Do they really have any choice but to follow the revenue? Of course they do, but WoTC doesn't have to decide it for them. There's no reason why they can't determine their own destiny.
Troll, Troll, Troll..........................Troll!Tim, I'm curious. Sometimes you end your posts with "troll, troll, troll" and sometimes you don't. Are you actively trying to take part in the conversation, or is the "troll, troll, troll" an indication that you're trying to derail conversation? Funny how the powers that be on this board raise questions about my conduct. Neither of you responded to my post. You simply made veiled personal attacks at me by questioning my motives. That's an old polical trick to shift attention elsewhere. Why not address the issue at hand? Afraid? Did I hit a nerve? I'm not derailing this thread. I think I raised a valid point. The individual who started this thread expressed his dissappointment in where this community is headed. I simply added context to it by pointing out the truth behind the situation. Paizo is either hiding something (switching to 4.0), paralyzed by a decision they are unable to make, or lack the business sense not to upset their customers and pit them against each other.
Troll, Troll, Troll..........................Troll!Tim, I'm curious. Sometimes you end your posts with "troll, troll, troll" and sometimes you don't. Are you actively trying to take part in the conversation, or is the "troll, troll, troll" an indication that you're trying to derail conversation? I put the "troll, troll, troll" at the end of my posts for Sebastion. He was the first to call me a troll. And since he considers every one of my post a troll post I end it with a "toll, troll, troll" I don't want to disappoint.
Why would you want to work with a company that can't even deliver something as simple as a licensing agreement. To me this shows great weakness. I'd go off an create my own products and make some real money. That takes courage and I see no spine when I see no announcement. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some back room dealing going on over this. Maybe Paizo becomes the "official adventure producer" for WoTC or something like that. The only reason why Paizo hasn't made an announcement yet is that they will be going to 4.0. Once they do that half the posters on this board who happen to be the majority of those whose posts were deleted will move on and take their dollars with them. Then those who continue to play 3.5 will lump Paizo with WoTC in the greed/dishonest crowd. Paizo will say its simply business, but thats not going to make anyone happy. People vote with their dollars and Paizo, like a politician, is betting that there are more voters for 4.0. Of course, like a politician they don't want to take any ciriticism for holding an unpopular position with their constituants. I hope I'm wrong, but until I am proven otherwise, I'm sticking with my story. Troll, Troll, Troll..........................Troll!
Your 1/38th of the messageboard falls flat. That 1/38th probably sees at least a third of the activity on this board. People want to discuss 3.5/4.0. I'm sure the item card boards don't get this much love. Your post simply supports the opinion of many of the members of this community that this is no longer a place for them to express their opinions. Will you be happy with a board that you consider civil with less traffic. I wonder how that will effect your revenue or translate into traffic for this site? I hope your willing to stake your job on it, because that is what you have done. Troll, Troll, Troll
You wouldn't have this problem if you simply announced what version your future products would assume. Once that happens half the community will simply move on. If you choose 3.5, then the 4.0 lovers will move on to the WoTC board and DnDinsider. If you choose 4.0, the 3.5 fans will move on to whatever community fills that void. You can't have your cake and eat it to here. Stringing people along like you have has caused peopely to become anxious. When people get anxious they get mean and that is what has happened here. This is a mess of your own creation. Don't blame the oommunity, blame your lack of sincerity. I am sure that you have already decided which version you are planning to go with and that the announcement has been held up so that you can sell our of the printings of material you have in inventory. You can blame WoTC for being late on releasing 4.0, but that excuse is getting old. I saw 4.0 at DnDXP and know enough to decide which version I want to support. I have a good idea of whether or not it can support your products as well. Removing posts is like kidnapping political dissidents in the middle of the night and silencing them. This was a fairly free board until recently. Sooner or later you'll make your announcment and people will calm down. In the meantime your just going to have to live with people spewing their opinions and insulting each other in the process until you do. Take some responsibility here. When politicians insult the community they represent they get voted out of office. Or resign like client 9.
I wouldn't take any comments from Necromancer Games seriously. Their products usually lack in both quality and design. No matter what they design, WoTC will jazz it up and call it the official version. I wish Necromancer games would stop licing off the scraps of WoTC.
Doesn't that tell you something?
All this "balance" is very easy to explain. Political correctness tells us that everyone is equal, even though it is not true. Some people are smarter, others taller, others athletic, others ugly, others have wonderful voices. I could go on and on. In the D&D world everyone starts equal, progresses equally, and plays equally. Its more like a board game. Think of monopoly. Everyone starts out with a piece, two dice to move, and the same bundle of money. You aquire more assets through a combination of luck and skill. D&D 4.0 takes the luck and skill out of the game so that each encounter is becomes an exercise in execution. Each character has a role. Their role dictates their relatively small set of options. Those options are triggered by outcomes that have occurred prior to their action, but are more or less standard and expected. Players can take loot, but since the game is now low risk (hard to die, PC's have distinct advantage over NPC's and Monsters) there are low rewards in terms of treasure and magic items. In the end, no player is more powerful or has better options then any other. They are simply the average character for their role. They may have advantages over the average commoner, but not so much over a PC or NPC of the same level. This is how board games and card games work. At the beginning of each game (encounter) each player (character) has as much resources (attack options) as any other given player by which to overcome (defeat) an adversary (monster/NPC). Since each player is balanced and none stands out over the others then everyone should derive the same amount of satisfaction. Of course the adversary is at a sever advanatage (think of a fistfight where one person has one hand tied behind his back) so that the advantage is tilted in the players favor every time. My generation (30+) wouldn't get much satisfaction from that game. It will only be a matter of time before this situation reveals itself. At that point I expect WoTC to release 4.5 or suggest that DM's begin to think outside the everything is provided for you encounters that 4.0 dictates and have players take on increasly difficult monsters until the judge "gets it right"
When I first heard that the pregens had to fight a dragon, the first question that came to my mind was why? It seemed to me that very few parties would be able to defeat the encounter and those that did would have to be extremely lucky. Its also funny how most of the pregens didn't die until this final encounter.
What if Paizo frames 3.5 (or its version of it) as the "immersive" edition of D&D, or some such positive term to convey what is does better than 4E, so players feel it is something to graduate to or return to when they tire of 4E. Given that Green Ronin uses the word "True" to describe their rules system the obvious Dungeons and Dragons trademark that can't be used a new option must be considered. I think the game could be called Pathfinder. If it needs a tagline then use "Fantasy Role Playing Rules" or "Traditional Fantasy Role Playing System."
On what basis are you making these assumptions?
Lisa, thanks for posing this question as I haven't heard it stated in such concise format on these boards. There is NO reason why Paizo wouldn't be able to attract young gamers by staying with 3.5 then with 4.0. In matter of fact I believe they will be able to attract more gamers then 4.0 and here's why: - Many gamers are now 30-somethings with kids. So far I have played board games from Fantasy Flight Games with them and will continue to do so until they are 10. At that point I'll introduce them to D&D 3.5. I've been purchasing your products in preparation for that time and I feel as if I get extra support from these boards on how to run games more efficiently and effectively. - 3.5 seems like more of a game then 4.0. It will be more "sticky" with consumers then 4.0. 4.0 is packaged nicely for 4-6 hour slots, but will wind up with the same issues as video games. Once the end guy is beaten, kids will move on. 3.5 may require more time, but it will also engage players more. - If 3.5 is given proper support it will become the "big kids" game compared to 4.0. 4.0 is oversimplified and is more pure fantasy then fantasy simulation. The rules light game will become repetitive and kids will seek out more advanced options. - Paizo has the writers and artists to capture the imagination of the younger generation more so then WoTC. The work done by the present staff pales in comparison to that of the Paizo staff. Paizo offers enticing story lines that are consistent, well thought out, and engaging. The artwork is flashy, crisp, and eye catching. WoTC has gone cheap and for that they have an incoherent setting, choppy artwork, and books that look like art students designed them. - Lastly, and I think most important, the 3.5 market is here to stay and will nurture the younger market. They have the experience that has been passed down for 30 years to pass on the tradition of D&D and remind people of its roots. P.S. Lisa, if you are going the 3.5 rout and are looking to recruit more young players, I suggest that you have your staff build a "Living" campaign based on Golarian. I see many parents who bring their kids to LG events in New England and have no desire to see their kids switch to 4.0 after buying them the 3.5 books. Plus there are alot of people who want to continue playing 3.5 in a Living format.
I know the players who made up the group that beat the dragon. Of the six members of the party, 4 had practiced 4.0 by using the 4.0 like rules from D&D books (the names of the books escape me). They basically knew the rules and were able to manipulate the field of battle. They also were able to take full advantage of the second wind and heal capabilities. From the way it was described to me, they simply outlasted the black dragon. I've also been told that this group figured out a long time ago that almost every encounter could be outlasted for the most part with the new rules. From reading the gamers noters I concluded that the game is heavily tilted to the players advantage.
Your seeing sculpts of minis that probably match the art from the PHB, DMG, and MM for 4th edition. Basically the new set is a reimagining of the old monsters to fit the new descriptions. I'm sure future releases on miniatures will be more of the same.
No—I was planning on staying with 3.5, and I still expect to I read the primer and it hasn't changed my mind. If anything it reinforced my belief that 4.0 is nothing more then a morph of a miniatures game with a superheroes game given a WoW feel.
This is a great observation. I think this is also another reason why Paizo should stick with producing 3.5 material. 4.0 will suck up alot of dollars and players will ultimatel have to decide between purchasing setting content or rule book. The manner in which WoTC is producing rule books (i.e. incomplete books so that people will have to purchase the PHBII to get druids and gnomes or the MMII to get frost giants) almost forces consumers to spend their money on rulebooks rather then setting books. If Paizo continues to support 3.5 they have less competition. Less competition for peers producing 3.5 (wimps like Goodman Games have already abandoned ship) and less overall competition for rules books. Paizo I hope your listening because this dynamic will seriously effect the market. I just can't see many people purchasing 4.0 Game Mastery and Pathfinder books until they've spent on the core rule books and supplements. It could a year before the market settles to a point where people carve out a bit of their disposable income set aside for gaming to purchase your products. Don't forget that there is a recession looming and WoTC may have bungled the release of 4.0 when people will be tight for cash. Wow, 3.5 is sounding better and better. I'm not going to have to burn a hole in my wallet and I can still enjoy monthly installments of Pathfinder and Game Mastery if only Paizo will stay with 3.5. If not, I can save my money and put my kids through college. Not a bad deal.
I'll buy it if its 3.5. I'm holding off on all Game Mastery and Pathfinder and for that matter Paizo purchases until I know for sure this series will be 3.5.
1) No, never, 3.5 meets all my gaming groups needs. 2) I will not purchase any Paizo products or anything else from the Paizo site. 3) I will subscribe to Pathfinder, Pathfinder Chronicles, and Game Mastery products. I have been waiting for you guys to make a decision on where you were going with this. I have purchased all of the Pathfinder Installments and the Game Mastery mods that have been publsihed so far from my local gaming shop. I will purchase them directly if you go with the 3.5 rules set or at least a 3.75 option, but not 4.0. BTW - Publishing your products in 4.0 with pdfs for 3.5 conversion is not an option for me. I am frankly not interested in cross referencing the fluff with the crunch to play the game. I have enough 3.5 material to last me for 10 years of game play. I will continue to support Paizo as long as it supports me and my game.
I purchase the Pathfinder mods through Amazon.com or my local store. Amazon.com offers the same discount you do and free shipping. My local store gives me a 35% discount on all my purchases. The new offer has piqued my interest. How much do you charge for shipping the installments of a Pathfinder subscription? What is the shipping charge if it is combined with a Game Mastery subscription? I would subscribe tomorrow if I knew that Pathfinder was NOT going 4.0. I would also subscribe if a new rules system like a 3.75 was in the works. The only reason I go throught the hassle for the discounts is because I'm pretty sure I will lose interest if Pathfinder and Game Mastery goes 4.0.
Your avatar is very appropriate. The 3.5/4.0 debate is the two headed monster of the RPG industry. I would prefer to have the Pathfinder mods in version 3.5 as I have no plans to switch to 4.0. If I were Paizo I would offer 4.0 conversion pdf's if one sub scribes to Pathfinder. If 4.0 becomes popular that a switch from 3.5 to 4.0 would be warranted. Staying with 3.5 would be the safe bet.
Do you think D&D is a game or an excercise in fantasy? I never mentioned anything about PC's max-minning. I said that every now and then a player would find something in a splat book that would tip the scales in their favor. I never stated whether it was the players intention to min-max by doing this. Yes - I didn't use the word cushion, but I made the case that PC's have more opportunities to not die. Role playing to me is the activity undertaken by yourself on behalf of your PC to interact with elements of the Fantasy World the either initiate an activity covered by a mechanic (intiating combat) or engaging in an activity for which no mechanic exists (like telling a joke). Role playing is not creating a character that a player believes can accomplish one or more activities, but in the game mechanics fills the role poorly or not at all. I.E. a bard being a front line fighter. I am making both distinctions. D&D is a game and not a theatrical production. I don't believe Dungeons and Dragons rule were created to simulate action sequences in a film. I believe Dungeons and Dragons was created to simulate battles in a fantasy setting using historical wargaming rules as a base and adding a fantasy layer to it so that you have a rule set that more accurately simulates LoTR, Conan, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Camelot, and other fantasy genres. I'd like it to stay this way. While playing the game I never judge adversaries to give long winded speaches on their plans while combating the party. I am also making a distinction between D&D and LARP's. D&D = role playing and rules. LARP's = pure fantasy best practiced at home with fellow LARPer's that live and operate in a fantasy world that doesn't exist. Before LARPing existed these people were usually kicked out of community theatre for overacting and demanding to play the part "their way" and wound up in looney bins. Needless to say, there is a fine line between between what can be accomplished by role playing and what can be accomplished by rules. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5 editions allowed for a balanced approach. I think the role playing benefitted to an extent by the risks inherent in combat. From what I have gathered about 4.0, role playing will fall into one of two categories depending on the group. Near LARP'ing due to a lack of respect for rules that are scewed toward a victorious outcome for the PC's or little, if not 0 role playing as the point of the game is now to defeat adversaries in as few rounds as possbile in order to loot their bodies and move on to the next staged encounter as quickly as possible.
I'm not really a fan of splat books, but I had to point out that it was one thing that at least made the game interesting sometimes. I can do without them. Do you believe that roleplaying is not important? Do you think D&D is a game or an excercise in fantasy? Would you rather roll dice and defeat an adversary of equal or greater standing or would you rather dress up as your PC and pretend to defeat adversaries because you said so?
Art immitates life. Yes, I agree with you and believe that 4.0 is going in that direction. Unfortunately, the rules will place a tag on everything that is not consistent with its purpose. It's like so many college grads resumes. They want to be a compute programmer, but they majored in communications and by the way, they built a really cool website to show everyone how to grow weed in an aerogarden so now their qualified. I think that 4.0 will have less role playing and more fantasy. The fantasy will be character builds that are supposed to fit a role, but are either unqualified or incompetant enough to fill it.
I tried the Markov Chain approach and had the same findings that you had where the probability of being dead increases as more rolls take place. The problem is that the incremental increase of the chance of dying is still very low. Too low more my taste. Imagine a party of PC's where two are in combat and two are down. The odds of one of those 2 down characters rolling a 20 over 3 rounds is 30%. That is almost a one third chance that one of the 2 down PC's will suddenly be restored without assistance. This PC can then heal the other and join the combat. Of course, that's assuming that one of the 2 standing PC's doesn't heal one or both of them while they pound away at NPC's or one of the PC's doesn't lay a mass heal on the party which no matter how much damage the PC's have suffered brings them back on their feet. Too bad the NPC can't do anything to permanently remove the PC from the board. The death mechanic described so far for 4.0 comes directly from MMPROG's. It intentionally stacks the odds in the party's favor so that they can survive each encounter. This works well for MMPORG's as the goal is to allow the players to survive most contests without difficulty to keep them engaged in the site and return for more action and reape rewards from the time spent playing. I don't think D&D ever intended this type of risk/reward scenario. The game is meant to be both strategically and intellectually challenging. In past editions the rules are set so that there is a real danger in failing at a task whether its combat, jumping across a chasme, or disabling a trap. Without that element D&D is just an excercise in moving through a dungeon without any risk. Most of us don't give younger generations alot of credit, but I can see them becoming board with the game in this state. They may buy the game and give it a shot, but like most kids and young adults, move on because encounters will all become the same and video games or MMPORG's provide the same risk/reward without the hassle of gathering all the people and materials together to play. And since the players are not competing against each other and the judge is simpy a judge without any skin in the game with few resources to challenge the players, whats the point of playing? The only measure of success in this scenario is the lowest amount of rounds it takes to resolve a combat. "Did we end that combat in 10 rounds or 4 rounds?" You'll rarely hear "Boy, that was a tough combat 3 of the 5 members of the party died."
Thanks for doing the math. It never occured to me that unaided, there are only two eventual outcomes. Even so, six rounds is alot of time in which to heal a PC. It reminds me of video game where you were given 30 seconds to put in another quarter to continue the game after you died. Even with a 72.7% chance of dying, I am still skeptical that most PC's will reach that point given that you have at least two rounds in which you can b healed, a monster can beat you into oblivion and it can't get any worse for you during that time, and on average it takes 6 rounds to die which is more then enough time to heal a PC. I think what is even more important is that with a party of at least 4 PC's, it is unlikely any will actually die as there will be plenty of opporunity to heal PC's below 0 hit points. And all too often PC's will roll a 20, and get a second chance. 4.0 will play like a video game or movie. Combat will go like this. Judge: "PC1 the Pit Fiend attacks with his claw and does 30 points of damage - how many hit points do you have left?" PC1 "I had 10, now I have zero." Judge: "OK, your down. Thats the last attack for the Pit Fiend this round. PC1, it's your turn. Roll to see what your down status is." PC1: "I roll a 20. Wow, I get 1/4 my hit points back which is 50. I get up and attack the Pit Fiend. I roll a 15. That plus my modifier is 36. Do I hit." Judge: "You hit." PC1: "Sweet, I do 35 points of damage." Judge: "You drop the Pit Fiend." PC1: "Cool, that was a close one. I really though we we're dead there for a minute. Lucky I rolled that 20." PC2: "What do you mean lucky, me and PC4 rolled 20's during the combat too after the Pit Fiend dropped us and softened him up for you. The odds that one of us would roll after being dropped is 40%. PC3 has two strikes, and has been hanging on since 4 rounds ago." Judge: "Yeah, you guys have been down and up the whole combat. The Pit Fiend would have finished you all off, but the rules don't allow it. Heck PC4 would have been 100 points below zero because of all the fireballs he was dropping on you, but when your down it has no effect." BTW: I can see parties using the status of being down as a resource saving tool against area effect spells that do damage as well as extending a parties healing resources. I believe the new death machanic has been employed to extend combat and avoid PC death more then anything else. Pity.
Let's do the math on the chances of dying while taking a massive beating under the 4.0 rule set. Once a PC is below 0 hit points they drop and can roll to see if one of three things happens: 1. on a 1-9 conditions worsen (45% chance on a roll)
It takes three 1-9 rolls to die which means you will get at least 3 chances to roll the dice. The roller has a 9.11% chance of rolling a 1-9 consecutively on the first three rolls. There are pretty good odds the PC is still alive after 3 rounds. At the same time the roller only needs to score a 20 on one of the three rolls to miraculously be rejuvinated to 1/4 of his hp. The roller has a 15% chance to accomplish this. This means that given three rolls the PC has a 9.11% chance or dieing, a 20% chance of being healed to 1/4 of its hp, and 70% chance of getting at least one more roll to remain in the land of the living. Those are incredibly good odds. During this whole entire time the monster can mash away at the helpless PC and has no chance of killing him. Imagine what happens when the whole party has been disabled. The monster simply has to sit and wait until all the PC's have rolled a 1-9 three times until they die. It can't even eliminate a threat if it wants. The more times the PC has to roll, the higher the odds that they will roll a 20. I feel really bad for the monsters in this situation. I feel even worse for the judge. How do you defeat a party with your monsters when the PC's have a chance to return from the dead every round? This mechanic is flat out broken if you ask me.
4.0 is definitely going to be heavily skewed in the PC's favor. NPC's and mosters die at 0 hp, while PC's can go negative half of their hit points before they die. They also have several chances to stabilize or recover, and almost everyone can heal themsleves and others. They really want to make it difficult to die in 4.0 because dying isn't fun for most people (expecially the target audience). The game is being dummied down for dummies so as not to offend their sensibilities toward dying. Is it a game anymore if you always win? BTW - a rule set allows for PC dominance may hurt sales more then help. One of the great things about splat books was that it created an arms war between DM's and players and allow for each to temporarily get an advantage. If the PC's never have to worry about dying the only thing books are good for is variants on the same theme. If roleplaying is no longer empahsized a bugbear barbarian will be similar to a dwarf barbarian. The onl difference is how the PC's looks. They will both have the same feel. There should always be a fear of losing or else its not a game. Its just an excercise. Has out society become so sensitive that even games allows everyone to be a winner? I also don't think being a judge will be much fun with 4.0. There would be little incentive to take on this role. The judge becomes more of a spectator in this sense then a judge or story teller or for lack of a better word, guide.
I've read various posts where people have brought up the possibility that it is difficult for characters to die using the 4.0 ruleset. If that is true, shouldn't it also be tough for NPC's of equal encounter level (or whatever it is called in 4.0) be difficult to kill as well? What are the implications on combat? Will it take longer to resolve a combat because the particpants are tough to kill? If that's not the case, is the 4.0 ruleset scewed so that player characters are considerably more powerful or hardy then NPC's and monsters so that PC's always have the advantage? I always thought that the 3.5 rules set encounter level, when calculated properly and terrain or outside influences were taken into account was an accurate tool that put PC's on par to their adversaries in combat. How is the 4.0 situation any better if the encounter balancing act is either scewed or worse - broken? The worst case is that combats are drawn out giving PC's plenty of "second chances" in combat so that every combat becomes a war or attrition similar to combats in video games with end bosses on each level. Instead of outsmarting or overpowering the end boss, the task is always to kill the end bosses annoying minions first while avoiding heavy damage from the end boss and then just gang up on it till everyone in the party uses up all their resources. During the combat, PC's won't worry about dieing since every now and then the cleric will score a ciritcal hit and heal someone while some other character class can mass heal the party. The wizard will run out of big spells, but will case 1s6 magic missles until the boss drops. Meanwhile the fighter doesn't have to worry about DR so he just keeps whacking away. The boss just sits there and takes a beating since he has fewer options and fewer defenses. While he/she/it takes the beating it thinks "boy, I miss 3.5 when I had a fighting chance." For that matter so will the DM/GM/judge/WoTC Savant or whatever a Dungeon Master is called in 4.0. Thoughts?
I've thought long and hard about how to fit this campaign into Greyhawk and here is the best I could come up with. In my campaign Iuz has been pushed further north to the land of black ice. He has left behind much of the northern Flaness. As his minions retreat humans and demi humans (mostly from the Bandit Kingdoms, Blackmoor, the Shield Lands, and Perrenland) have moved in to settle the land that was once called Iuz. I replaced the Runelords with the Horned Sociey and adjusted the society to be devil worshippers that used infernal favors to enslave/dupe the stone giant population and use them to quickly (over 200 years) build a vast empire. The relics of this empire still exist in some part to the present day (CY 600 in my campaign). Each of the Horned society members worshipped a devil with a different aspect of sin. So far this has worked seemlessly into my campaign. In fact my players had no idea that the adventures were actually part of the Pathfinder series until they reached the fourth installment.
The only reason why 4.0 even has halflings is because of LoTR and its fans. I don't even know what a 3.0 or 4.0 halfling is considering the fact that it is nothing like a hobbit. Halflings wear shoes, are really short, wander to world, and steal stuff. It makes little sense to me with this set of traits they are like vermin and most communities would be wise to shun them or exterminate them completely. I suspect that in the "points of light" setting 4.0 has foisted on us halflings would be slaughters as they wandered between communities. All hobbits are is short gypsys. WoTC has turned them into a completely useless race. Similar to how kobolds are now related to dragons. If I was a Dragon I would slaughter all the kobolds as they would embarass my gene pool. In my campaign kobolds still look like scaly dogs and hobbits run around barefoot and hand out in their halfling holes. They may have to share some traits with Gnomes, but at least it makes sense. 4.0 - D&D for dummies
Where are these "slick" ads going to appear? There's no more Dragon and Dungeon magazines to advertise in. I doubt that TV is an option. If they go that route the WOW will eat them alive. I don't play WOW, but their ads are clever. What can WoTC do for a TV ad? Whip out the insulting "grapple sucks" ad with the foreign observer. More "The game is the same" BS? It seems to me that the best they will be able to do is put more animated cartoons about game changes on their website. They could also flood stores with promtional minis, adventures, displays, and posters. I don't see how any of that is going to attract new gamers. At least Dungeon and Dragon magazines could be found at Borders, Barnes & Nobles, and other major book stores. I don't think there is a real marketing plan. This one is being done on the cheap for sure. You may want to take a look at the latest press release on Hasbro's performance. They had a banner year in 07. Revenue and profits were at an all time high. There was no mention of WoTC, or Dungeons and Dragons in any of their press releases. The one nugget of information in their announcements cited price increases on all products accross the board to offset production costs and maintain profit growth. Get ready to pony of for those 4.0 books. My guess is that the DMG II, PHB II, and MM II will cost $50.00 retail in 09.
Well said. This is the best post on how Hasbro has handled marketing for 4.0 so far. Your point on it taking established players to bring on new players is dead on. The game is too complicated even with the dummied down 4.0 rules set to allow for one to just pick up a book and start playing. I am one of the thirty somethings that starting playing when I was 6 until I went to high school. I picked up the game again in 2000 because my free time opened up and I remembered how much fun the game was. 3.0 and later 3.5 were great systems and alot of fun to play. It was also easy to quickly learn the rules. I now have kids and am thinking of introducing them to D&D, but I don't have time to learn the 4.0 rules set and frankly I am not too thrilled about the new setting. It is unfamiliar to me, so it would take alot of work to fit it into the settings I am used to. I was about to go out an purchase some 3.5 books and get my kids started with some minis, but I actually found a better alternative. I've been playing Drakon and Cave Troll from fanatasy flight games with my kids (ages 5 and 6) and they love it. I'll try Runebound with them around Christmas and Descent next year. (both game series are produced by Fantasy Flight Games) Maybe by 2009 or 2010 Hasbro will come up with something that is closer to the D&D I am used to. One thing that I beleive you missed is how WoTC has handled the RPGA and the end of Living City, Living Greyhawk, and Living Kalamaar. All three living campaigns will be discontinured this year (Living City was discontinued last year) and the expectation is that these same living players will play the new 4.0 living setting in the Forgotten Realms. I know few people that play LG that want to take the leap. I believe there is a huge opportunity to sell core books that is being missed by Hasbro. |
