The Once and Future Kai's page

Up until now, I felt that percentile die (and their playtest successor flat checks) have largely been limited to random elements that were beyond a player's control. Some examples are miss chance due to concealment, casting a spell with wild magic, or determining what a creature is reincarnated as.

Given that - it seems like a significant shift in design philosophy for flat checks to apply to areas where character options have traditionally had clout. The two examples from 1.5/1.6 are a Flat Check for Death & Dying instead of a Fortitude Save and a Flat Check to determine the duration of Barbarian Rage.

Do think this represents a shift in design philosophy? If so, what do you think of it?

Yesterday, Update 1.6 went live marking the end of the Playtest Updates. I thought now was a good time for a retrospective and had been planning to make this thread...but it looks like I'm not the only one who thought this was a good idea.

gwynfrid wrote:

Would it be possible to have new survey for a perspective that includes all updates?

One of the few remaining surveys I want to make sure we get out there is one talking specifically about the changes in the updates.

Just because it is in an update does not mean it is final. The updates are specifically so we can test out additional rules for the game.

So I'll be looking forward to that survey! But until then let's chat about the Updates here.

What Update was your Favorite?

Update 1.2 remains my favorite for abolishing Signature Skills and increasing the minimum skill threshold for all classes. Unlocking Skill proficiency had a drastic impact on the game and enabled a broad range of new character options. I'd love to see something similar implemented for all proficiency.

What Update did you Hate?

Oddly enough, I feel the most negatively about Update 1.4. It took a step in the right direction but in the process messed up several Ancestries. Gnomes made out like bandits while the changes to many other Ancestries were lackluster. Also, I hate what it did to Dwarves. This is a hard one because, in theory, I like the direction but I hated the details of the implementation.

Bonus: Rank the Updates.

I'm not taking this bonus question - I can't remember what Update 1.3 even changed - but I have a feeling it might show up on a survey.

Bonus: What Update do you wish we'd seen during the Playtest?

I'd have loved to see an Update focused on Exploration Mode along the lines of the Resonance Test. The core rules for Exploration Mode only take up two pages...so it would have been feasible to test out revisions to them.

Let's take a look at the Basic Conditions as a whole. All of them from Accelerated to Unseen.

For your reference: http://pf2playtest.opengamingnetwork.com/playing-the-game/conditions/#Basic _Conditions

Accelerated

Your Speed is increased. Accelerated is always followed by a number indicating how many feet the condition increases your movement Speed by (for example, accelerated 10 increases your Speed by 10 feet). If the condition doesn’t specify which of your movement types it applies to, it applies to all of them, but it doesn’t grant you any movement types that you don’t already have.

I think this one works. I’m not sure that it’s necessary over “boosts movement by 10ft for 1 minute” but otherwise I have no problem with it as a Condition.

Asleep

You can’t act. Furthermore, you have the blinded and flat-footed conditions and take a –4 conditional penalty to AC and Perception. You critically fail all Reflex saves you must attempt. When you gain this condition, you fall prone and drop items you are holding or wielding unless the effect states otherwise or the GM determines you’re in a position in which you wouldn’t.
If you take damage while asleep, the condition ends.
If you are within an ally’s natural reach, that ally can usually nudge or shake you awake with an Interact action. If there is loud noise going on around you, at the start of your turn you can attempt a Perception check as a free action with a –4 circumstance penalty against the noise’s DC (or the lowest DC if there is more than one noise), waking up if you succeed. For creatures attempting to stay quiet, this is a Stealth DC. Some magical effects make you sleep so deeply that they don’t allow you to attempt this Perception check.

This is a classic Condition and had to be in the game.

Blinded

You can’t see. While blinded, you treat all terrain as difficult terrain. All other creatures and objects are unseen to you (see page 303) unless you succeed at a Seek action to sense them. You automatically fail or critically fail (whichever’s worse) Perception checks that are fully dependent on sight, and if vision is your only precise sense, you take a –4 conditional penalty to Perception checks. You are immune to visual effects. Blinded overrides dazzled.

Another classic that had to be in the game.

Broken

Broken is a condition that affects objects. A broken object can’t be used for its normal function, nor does it grant bonuses. It still imposes the penalties and limitations normally incurred by carrying, holding, or wearing it. For example, a suit of armor would still impose its Dexterity modifier cap, check penalty, and so forth.
Broken armor is an exception. It still grants its item bonuses, but also gives you a conditional penalty to AC depending on its category: –1 for broken light armor, –2 for broken medium armor, or –3 for broken heavy armor.

I think one is useful and adds a nice element to the game. Sunder items to take them out of a fight and then salvage them for repair. Of course - Sunder needs to return for this to happen.

Concealed

While you are concealed from a creature, such as in a thick fog, you are difficult for that creature to see, but you are not unseen. A creature that you’re concealed from must succeed at a DC 5 flat check when making an attack against you or targeting you with a spell or effect, unless the attack is an area effect. If the check fails, the attack, spell, or effect misses with no effect. For more information on being concealed, see page 302.

Okay. This is a bit different from Pathfinder First Edition but it works. I like having this as a condition.

Confused

You don’t have your wits about you, and you act rashly.
You can’t use reactions, nor can you Delay or Ready. On each of your turns, you must use your actions to attack the creature that attacked you most recently since your last turn. The GM might allow you to use actions to draw a weapon, move so the creature is in reach, and so forth, as long as the actions lead up to you attacking as required.
If no creature attacked you since your last turn, roll 1d4. On a 1, you must spend your turn attempting to attack the nearest creature to you. On a 2, you must attack yourself once, hitting automatically for your normal damage, and use no further actions. On a 3, you must do nothing but babble incoherently. On a 4, you can act normally.

Does anything other than Powers/Spells cause this? I don’t think this needs to be a Condition unless more things cause it.

Dazzled

Your eyes are overstimulated. If vision is your only precise sense, all creatures and objects are concealed from you.

I’m okay with this as a condition. It’s a nice simplification.

Dead

You are no longer alive. You can’t act or be affected by spells that target creatures (unless they specifically target dead creatures), and for all other purposes you count as an object. When you gain the dead condition, you go to 0 HP if you had a different amount, and you can’t be brought above 0 HP as long as you remain dead.

Hmm. I guess it’s needed?

Deafened

You can’t hear. You automatically fail or critically fail (whichever’s worse) Perception checks based on sound.
You take a –2 conditional penalty to Perception checks for initiative and checks that involve sound but also rely on other senses. If you perform an action that involves auditory elements, you must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or the action is lost; attempt the check after spending the action but before any effects are applied. You are immune to auditory effects.

Another classic condition.

Drained

When a creature successfully drains you of blood or some other life force, you become less healthy. Drained always includes a value. You take a conditional penalty equal to the value on Fortitude saves and Constitution-based checks. You also lose a number of Hit Points equal to your level (minimum 1) times the drained value, and your maximum Hit Points are reduced by the same amount. For example, if you’re hit with an effect that inflicts drained 3 and you’re a 3rd-level character, you lose 9 Hit Points and reduce your maximum Hit Points by 9. Losing these Hit Points doesn’t count as taking damage.
In most cases, the drained condition heals naturally at a slow rate. Each day, when you regain Hit Points by resting, your drained value is reduced by 1. This increases your maximum Hit Points, but you don’t immediately recover the lost Hit Points. When the drained value reaches 0, you no longer have this condition.

What happens when you are drained to max hp 0?

Dying/Wounded

Instead of getting into the details, since there have been many revisions let’s just focus on how you feel about this as a condition..

I’m mixed. I like these in theory as a cap on yo-yo healing but in practice it seems to promote yo-yo hero points. I don’t like the 1,2,3,4 steps of Dying/Wounded and would prefer something HP based that meets the same goal. I also miss Diehard and Orc Ferocity allowing a Hero to be conscious while dying.

Encumbered

You are carrying more weight than you can manage. If you’re encumbered, decrease your Speed by 10 feet, to a minimum of 5 feet. This applies to every movement type you have. You also increase your armor’s check penalty by 2, or take a –2 check penalty if you’re unarmored.

Instead of increase ACP of 2 or take a -2 check penalty, I’d rather it just used the -2 check penalty.

Enervated

Enervation makes you less competent, as though your hard-earned experience had drained away. Enervated always includes a value. You take a conditional penalty equal to your enervated value on checks that include a proficiency modifier. The penalty can’t exceed your level, even if the enervated value is greater. For example, if you become enervated 4 and were level 3, you’d take only a –3 penalty.
In addition, you treat your level as though it were lowered by your enervated value (to a minimum of 1st level) when determining which spells you can cast and which abilities you can use. This applies only to actions, activities, free actions, and reactions you gained from feats and class features, and only those that have a level prerequisite. You don’t lose your prepared spells, but you can’t cast those that are higher level than the enervated condition allows. You regain access to them if your enervated value is sufficiently reduced.
Every day you can attempt a Fortitude save to reduce your enervated value by 1 (or 2 on a critical success). The DC is the same as that of the effect that enervated you. If multiple effects enervated you, use the highest DC for your daily checks to recover from enervated. You can also spend a day of downtime training to reduce your enervated value by 1 automatically (in addition to attempting one save for that day to reduce your enervated value).

Yuck. One of my least favorites mechanics to handle in D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder First Edition is back... And still a pain. I’d really prefer a less mechanically intensive take on this.

Enfeebled

You’re physically weakened. Enfeebled always includes a value. When you are enfeebled, you take a conditional penalty equal to the enfeebled value on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Strength-based checks.

So the condition causes a conditional penalty to all strength based skills. Eh. Instead, I think I’d rather have this condition hit all attributes as defined (e.g. Enfeebled [STR] lowers strength based, Enfeebled [DEX] lowers dexterity based, etc).

Entangled

A snare or another entrapping effect holds you back.
You’re hampered 10 (see the condition). If you attempt a manipulate action, activity, free action, or reaction while entangled, you must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or it is lost; attempt the check after using it but before any effects are applied.

I don’t like this as a condition. It seems like an unnecessary complication - especially since it immediately references hampered. Just have the effect note that the target is hampered 10 and must suceed at a DC 5 flat check to take an action.

Fascinated

You are compelled to focus your attention on something, which distracts you from other things going on around you. You take a –2 conditional penalty to Perception and skill checks, and you can’t use actions, activities, free actions, or reactions with the concentrate trait unless they or their intended consequences are related to the subject of your fascination (as determined by the GM). For instance, you might be able to Seek and Recall Knowledge about the subject, but not cast magic missile.
This condition ends if creatures act in a hostile fashion toward you or your allies.

I don’t like how the wording is oriented towards the player. Do they no longer have abilities that can cause NPCs to become fascinated? All conditions should have a comprehensive audience, in my opinion.

Fatigued

You’re tired, and expending energy makes you worse off.
You’re hampered 5 (see page 323). You take a –1 conditional penalty to AC and saving throws; each action you use during an encounter increases the penalty by 1 until the start of your next turn. For example, if you use 1 Stride action and 2 Strike actions on your turn, the conditional penalty would increase by 3 to a –4 penalty, which would reset to –1 at the start of your next turn. The penalty increases after each action you spend, so if you triggered an attack as a reaction to the first action you used, you’d take a –2 conditional penalty to AC against that attack.
If you’re fatigued in exploration mode, you can’t choose any tactic other than wandering.
You recover from fatigue with a full night’s rest (8 hours).

I do like this version over the one in Pathfinder First Edition. I like how the penalty builds with each action in a turn - cool idea.

But... Ugh. Fatigue and Exploration mode.

Flat-Footed

You’re unable to focus your full attention on defense. You take a –2 circumstance penalty to AC.

I like this as a condition. Good simplification. I’d like to see a note that Touch spells treat their target as Flat Footed (eliminating the need for TAC).

Fleeing

You’re forced to run away due to fear or some other compulsion. On your turn, you must spend each of your actions trying to escape the source of the fleeing condition as expediently as possible (such as by using move actions like Climbing or Flying to flee, or opening doors barring your escape). The source is usually the effect or caster that gave you the condition, though some effects might define something else as the source from which you must flee.
You can’t Delay or Ready while fleeing.

What happens if you can’t escape? What if the Dragon with Frightful Presence has you cornered? Cowering should be noted here.

Friendly

This condition affects only creatures that are not player characters. This attitude reflects a creature’s disposition toward the character who applied the condition. A creature that is friendly to a character likes that character. The character can attempt to make a Request of a friendly creature, and the friendly creature is likely to agree to a simple and safe request that doesn’t cost it much to fulfill. A character gains a +2 circumstance bonus to Lie, to Make an Impression on, or Request things from a friendly creature. This condition ends if the character who applied the condition (or the allies of that character) acts in a hostile fashion toward the creature.

I don’t like the five tiers of NPC relationship and so I don’t like this as a condition.

Frightened

You’re gripped by fear and struggle to control your nerves. The frightened condition always includes a value. You take a conditional penalty equal to this value to your checks and saving throws. Unless specified otherwise, at the end of each of your turns, the value of your frightened condition decreases by 1.

So. This is strong. Even too strong? Fear is the...everything killer?

Grabbed

You’re held in place by another creature, making you immobile and flat-footed. If you attempt a manipulate action, activity, free action, or reaction while grabbed, you must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or it is lost; attempt the check after using it but before any effects are applied.

Can’t Entangled and this be combined into one generic condition? Also, can multiple creatures grab? Why is this “you” oriented? Don’t players grab NPCs?

Hampered

Your Speed is reduced. Hampered is always followed by a number indicating by how many feet the condition reduces your Speed. This condition can’t reduce your Speed below 5 feet. If the condition doesn’t specify which of your movement types it applies to, it applies to all of them. You can have both the accelerated and hampered conditions at the same time, so if you were accelerated 10 and hampered 15, your Speed would be reduced by 5 feet.

I like this condition but not the name. Perhaps the simple Decelerated?

Helpful

This condition affects only creatures that aren’t player characters. This attitude reflects a creature’s disposition toward the character who applied the condition. A creature that is helpful to a character wishes to actively aid that character. It will accept reasonable Requests from that character, as long as such requests aren’t at the expense of the helpful creature’s goals or quality of life.
A character gains a +4 circumstance bonus to Deception checks to Lie to the helpful creature. This condition ends if the character who applied the condition (or the allies of that character) acts in a hostile fashion toward the creature, and the creature could gain a worse attitude condition depending on the severity of the hostile act.

Not a fan.

Hostile

This attitude affects only creatures that are not player characters. This condition reflects a creature’s disposition toward the character who applied the condition. A creature that is hostile to a character actively seeks to harm the character. It doesn’t necessarily attack, but it won’t accept Requests from the character. A character takes a –4 penalty to Make an Impression and Lie actions against a creature hostile to them.

Not a fan.

Immobile

You can’t use any action, activity, free action, or reaction that has the move trait. If an external force would move you out of your space, it must succeed at a check against either the DC of the effect rooting you or the relevant defense (usually Fortitude DC) of a monster rooting you, as appropriate.

Not sure that this needs to be a condition... But it works well enough and is well named.

Indifferent

This attitude affects only creatures that are not player characters. This condition reflects a creature’s disposition toward the character who applied the condition. A creature that is indifferent to a character doesn’t really care one way or the other about the character. The rules assume a creature’s attitude is indifferent unless specified otherwise.

Not a fan.

Paralyzed

Your body is frozen in place. You have the flat-footed condition and can’t act except to Recall Knowledge and act in other ways that require only the use of your mind (as determined by the GM).

Another classic. Quick and to the point. Probably should have some of Sleep’s affects? Like auto-falling reflex saves?

Persistent Damage

Persistent damage comes from effects like acid or burning and appears as “X persistent [type] damage,” where the “X” is the amount of damage dealt and “[type]” is the damage type. While affected by persistent damage, at the end of your turn you take the specified amount and type of damage, after which you can attempt a DC 20 flat check to remove the persistent damage. You roll the damage dice anew each time you take the persistent damage. Immunities, resistances, and weaknesses all apply to persistent damage. If an effect deals damage immediately and also deals persistent damage, you don’t take the persistent damage if you negate the other damage.
For example, an attack that deals slashing damage and persistent bleed damage wouldn’t deal the persistent bleed damage if you blocked all of the slashing damage.
You can be simultaneously affected by multiple persistent damage conditions so long as they have different damage types. If you would gain more than one persistent damage condition with the same damage type, the higher amount of damage overrides the lower amount. All types of persistent damage occur at once, so if something triggers when you take damage, it triggers only one time.
Persistent damage can have the bleed type, meaning it affects only living creatures that need blood to survive.
Bleeding automatically ends if you’re healed to your maximum Hit Points.
You or an ally can spend actions to help you recover from persistent damage, such as casting healing spells or using Medicine to Administer First Aid against bleeding, dousing a flame, or washing off acid; successfully doing so reduces the DC of that condition’s flat check to 15 and usually lets you immediately attempt an extra flat check to end that persistent damage. The reduction to the DC lasts until you remove the persistent damage or gain another persistent damage condition with the same damage type.

This is a very detailed condition...

Petrified

You have been turned to stone. You can’t act and you have the blinded and deafened conditions. You become an object with a Bulk equal to twice your normal Bulk (typically 16 for a petrified Medium creature or 8 for a petrified Small creature), AC 9, TAC 5, and Hardness 8.
In this state, you can take a number of Dents equal to 1 plus your Constitution modifier (minimum 1) before being broken (see page 320). When you’re turned back into flesh, you have as many HP as when you turned into a statue minus 5 HP for every Dent your statue had taken.
This can’t reduce you below a minimum of 1 HP, and if your statue was broken you return with exactly 1 HP. If the statue is completely destroyed, you immediately die.

I don’t know that this needs to be it’s own condition. Some things can just exist? Right? If Petrified is a condition does that mean every cool new monster or spell effect will need a new condition?

Prone

You’re lying on the ground. You take a –2 circumstance penalty to attack rolls but gain a +1 circumstance bonus to AC against ranged attacks. You’re flat-footed against melee attacks. The only move actions you can use while you’re prone are Crawl and Stand. Standing up ends the prone condition.
If you’re Climbing or Flying when you would be knocked prone, you fall instead (see page 310 for the rules on falling). You can’t be knocked prone when Swimming unless you sink to the bottom of a body of water.

Seems find to me.

Quick

You gain 1 additional action at the start of your turn each round. Many effects that make you quick specify the types of actions you can use with this additional action. If you become quick from multiple sources, you can use the extra action granted to use any single action granted by any of the effects that made you quick.

Sounds good.

Restrained

You’re tied up so you can barely move or a creature has you pinned. You have the immobile and flat-footed conditions, and you can’t do anything with the attack or manipulate traits except Break Grapple or Escape. The restrained condition overrides grabbed.

Couldn’t this, Entangled, and Grabbed be combined? Same condition with a few status points? Restrained 1, 2, etc? That would help with referencing.

Sensed

You become sensed when you were unseen by a creature (see below) but that creature has managed to determine the space you’re in (usually by succeeding at the Seek action). A creature who has sensed you is flat-footed to you but can target you with a Strike or another action that targets individuals, though it must succeed at a DC 11 flat check or the action fails to affect you.

I found this confusing initially but in practice I think it works well. I think the name could use some work (Sensed/Unseen) but maybe I just need more practice.

Sick

You feel ill. Sick always includes a value. You take a conditional penalty equal to this value on all your checks.
You can’t willingly ingest anything (including potions) while sick.
You can spend an action retching in an attempt to recover, which lets you attempt a Fortitude save against the DC of the effect that made you sick. On a success, you reduce your sickness value by 1 (or by 2 on a critical success).

Another condition causing a conditional penalty to everything.

Slowed

You can spend fewer actions. Slowed always includes a value. When you regain your actions at the start of your turn, reduce that number of actions by your slowed value.
You can’t Ready an action when you’re slowed. If you become slowed during your turn, you don’t lose any actions until the start of your next turn.

Great with the new action economy. I like this as a condition.

Sluggish

Your movements become clumsy and inexact. Sluggish always includes a value. When you are sluggish, you take a conditional penalty to AC, attack rolls, Dexterity-based checks, and Reflex saves equal to the condition’s value.

Circle back to my earlier proposal of Enfeebled (DEX)?

Stunned

Your body is unresponsive. You can’t act.

Is this necessary? Could it be merged with Paralyzed with this take just having a very short duration?

Stupefied

Your thoughts and instincts are clouded. Stupefied always includes a value. You take a conditional penalty equal to the value on spell rolls; spell DCs; and Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based checks. Anytime you attempt to cast a spell while stupefied, the spell is disrupted unless you succeed at a spell roll against the DC of the effect that gave you the stupefied condition.

Circle back to earlier proposal of Enfeebled [INT] [WIS] [CHA]?

Unconscious

You’ve been knocked out. You can’t act, and you have the blinded, deafened, and flat-footed conditions, and you take a –4 conditional penalty to AC. When you gain this condition, you fall prone and drop items you are wielding or holding unless the effect states otherwise or the GM determines you’re in a position in which you wouldn’t.
You must attempt a recovery saving throw (see page 295) at the start of each of your turns.

Lots of overlap with Sleep. Seems like there could be some simplification here.

Unfriendly

This attitude affects only creatures that are not player characters. This condition reflects a creature’s disposition toward the character who applied the condition. A creature that is unfriendly to a character dislikes and specifically distrusts that character. The creature won’t accept Requests from the character. A character takes a –2 circumstance penalty to Lie and Make an Impression actions against an unfriendly creature.

Not a fan.

Unseen

When you are unseen by a creature, that creature cannot see you at all, has no idea what space you occupy, and can’t target you with attacks or targeted spells and effects, though you still can be affected by area effects. The creature can attempt to guess which square you’re in to try targeting you, as detailed on page 303. When you’re unseen by a creature, that creature is flat-footed to you.
A creature can use the Seek action to try to find you. If it succeeds, you cease to be unseen by it and are sensed instead.

I think this is a useful simplification. It was a bit strange to think of it as a condition but it works. The "you" language needs to be made universal.

I love the new Archetype system but some others - like Dracala - expressed a desire to play a character who doesn't automatically progress with their base class. Instead of arguing over how this isn't possible in the new system...let's look at ways that it could be possible.

Well my question is, what if I didn't want some of those features from my first class at all? What if I am Purposefully trying to opt out of those features? Do I not need a way to do that? What if the things I wanted were the Feats from the two classes more than anything else? What if I wanted to Multiclass just because I liked the Feats from the 2 classes I wanted to combine, and didn't necessarily care about the Baseline Features?

Well then I guess that I am quite out of luck because I can't replace those baseline features just the Class Feats. Then there's the question of when the Class Specific Archetypes come out, will they be able to be Multiclassed into? I'm honestly having a hard time believing they will.... And these, THESE are my biggest gripes with the new system. I'm honestly not the kind of person who min maxed and munchkinized. Heck quite a few of my builds were far from it, But they were FUN to play regardless. Nerfing Multiclassing like this takes away a Lot of why I was having fun.

Now! I agree that there were people who were abusing multiclassing, I agree that the classes are looking pretty good in comparison to the classes in 1E, carrying over a Lot of the flavor and even cannibalizing from the Hybrid Classes (looking at you Fighter & Ranger). But I don't Like playing Straight up classes, I never have.

So... Long story short, please consider a generic Base Class specifically for character types who don't want a strong Base Class.

Something along the lines of....

The Dappler
Key Ability: Any
Hit Points: 8 plus your Constitution modifier

Proficiencies
Perception: Trained.
Saving Throws Two Trained. One Expert.
Skills:Trained a number of skills equal to 5 plus your Intelligence modifier
Weapons: Trained all simple and martial weapons
Armor: Trained all armor and shields

Level 1
Ancestry
Dapple - Gain One Dedication Feat Ignore level prerequisites (must meet all others).
Initial Specialization (Select Two: HD to 10, Simple Weapon to Expert, Perception to Expert, One Saving Throw to Expert, Two Skills to Trained, Armor to Expert, Gain a Skill Feat)
Background
Initial Proficiencies

Level 2
Class Feat
Skill Feat

Level 3
General feat
Skill increase
Dapple - Gain One Dedication Feat. Ignore level prerequisites and known feat restrictions (must meet all others).

And so on and so forth. I'm imagining something a bit like 3.5's Chameleon Prestige class but without the switching on the fly bit. Anyway, this is to propose the idea not the details...so please think about it. I'm sure there are a variety of ways to solve this problem and many of them are likely superior to this.

On today's Twitch Stream Jason was asked if we'd see "Combat Style" Archetypes in the Playtest. The answer was...probably not. But if we're not going to explore this side of rules further during the playtest I'd at least like to talk about them a lot on the forum. Because I love the Archetype rules and want them to fulfill the potential outlined in the quote below.

If I wanted to, say, create an archetype that was all about fighting with a two handed weapon effectively, I could do so in a way that it packages all the pieces you would need to build that character in one tidy place, one that could then be taken by everyone. The old system allowed us to do this.. kinda, but it was all over the place, and was easily seen as bloat, especially as the years went on.

What "Style" Archetypes should be in the Core Rulebook?

- Stalwart Defender: If a player wanted to take a dip to gain armor proficiency this should be it...not Paladin.
- Mystical Trickster: Talking about my Saboteur Druid made me realize that playstyle is currently difficult to pull off... Casters in general need access to Silent Spell and subterfuge options, a revamped Arcane Trickster seems like the best launching off point.
- Unarmored Archetype: If a non-monk character wanted to run around without armor on this would help them do that.
- Necromancer: Gives caster access to Create Undead and Control Undead feat/spell. Instead of one action to command one undead, gives one action to command on group of undead?
- Dinosaur Fort: Character wears Dinosaurs instead of armor and becomes a mobile fortress.
- All the Combat Styles: Of course Sword and Shield, Two Weapon, Archery, etc.
- Ranged Hybrid Attacker/Caster: Arcane Archer for all Ranged Attack Types/Magical Traditions.
- Melee Hybrid Attacker/Caster: Essentially the Magus...but for Arcane or Occult casters.
- Tactician/Commander: Take the Samurai/Cavalier ally supporting abilities and roll them into a separate Archetype. I like the idea that any class could take this and have some command skills.
- Healer: Any caster with access to necromancy healing spells can take this to become extremely good at wielding healing magic.
- Summoner: Any caster with a summoning spell known. Gains an Eidolon of their Magical Tradition. Progression improves summoning and Eidolon.

I left the classic Prestige class Shadowdancer off the list...because I think that they'd fit better in a Planar splatbook down the road. A Shadowdancer is a person of any class who has an innate connection to the Shadow Plane?

So... What did I miss that should be in the Core Rulebook? What do you think of my suggestions?

Early on in the Playtest, Zi Mishkal had a thread on What 3 things do you love / hate the most about 2e playtest so far? It was a fun and insightful topic - primarily because Zi Mishkal collated the responses and shared how things ranked out.

Unfortunately, Zi Mishkal is no longer participating in the playtest but I've decided to take up the gauntlet and run Round Two now that we're something like 82% of the way through the it. This includes up to Monday's Update 1.5 and the Resonance Test. I'm going to toss in a third category as well - Three Houserules you'd make.

The Top Three Things Kai Loves

1) The Action Economy / Depth of Tactical Combat

2) Archetypes / Multiclassing / Prestige Classing

3) Explicit Modular Design for developing 3PP/Homebrew content

The Top Three Things Kai Hates

1) Lack of Depth in Exploration Mode

2) The Character Sheet

3) Mid to High Level Character Tracking Complexity

Three Houserules Kai Would Make

1) "Half" Heritages are not locked to Human Ancestry

2) Separate all Proficiency out in the same style as Update 1.2 Skill Increases

3) Weapon Proficiency also adds Damage Die (Magic Weapons still do as well). They don't stack.

Also remember...

Try to keep your answers as concise as possible. I'm trying to see trends in thinking right now, so running through a wall of text isn't going to help get your message across :)

If you have a lengthy treatise on your point...have your list link to a thread dedicated to it rather than writing it here...because, like Mishkal, I'm planning to collate the results.

Alright! So... Three things you love? Three things you hate? Three houserules you'd make?

I've mentioned elsewhere that I have a Smokebomb happy Alchemist in one of my groups. Well he's further convinced me that Alchemists need some method for using Feint with their bombs.

Last session he had a Thunderstone in one hand and an Alchemist's Fire in the other. Turning to the enemy, he shouted to his allies, "Cover your ears!" Not that there are any rules for this but I let the enemy cover it's ears as a reaction. Then he threw the Alchemist's Fire (we all laughed but I didn't give him a bonus on the attack - just a Hero Point).

It seems natural to give the Alchemist some kind of Feint ability. Even if it's throwing a vial of water at the foe after claiming it's acid...and then following up with a real Bomb.

Normally Feint is limited to melee attacks so it would need a Feat making a specific exception for bombs.

I've been reading the various reactions to the Resonance Focus Test and one in particular stuck out to me.

My druid (built around wild shape) is now almost non functional.

Any scenario with more than 2 encounters and the druid can't use what they're built around. Previously, it had both Wild Claws AND Wild Shape, using two different pools, so pretty much could last a reasonable adventure.

Now, nope.

In my opinion, Wild Shape has seen a couple significant nerfs in the playtest; duration has been drastically reduced and Natural Spell is MIA.

The Barbarian is in a similar situation except that they can Rage as many times as their little angry hearts desire. I wonder if offering the same to Druids would simplify things by removing a meta-currency and give them back some of their versatility. I miss Druid scouts.

The Threefold Proposal
1) Assuming Wild Shape is a three action activity that transforms the Druid for ten minutes. The Druid can end the transformation prematurely at any point but ending Wild Shape is also a three action activity (either way, the transformation takes time).
2) A Wild Order Druid gains the special ability to use Wild Claws while in Wild Shape and gains Focus Points equal to Ancestry Bonus + CHA + STR. However, they must pay double the cost in Focus Points to Activate an Item that is not made of Wood, Stone, Hide, or similar thematic nature stuff.
3) Druids gain the ability to burn a focus point to extend the duration of Wild Shape to one hour but the form selected must be a Class feat of half their Druid level or lower.

I was sharing how the Alchemist in one of my groups has been spamming Smokebombs when I realized that I probably haven't been running Sneak RAW.

One of my players is fielding an Alchemist and has been spamming Smokebombs. The result is that players can do something, move into the cloud, and Hide to become Sensed. I've also been letting them Step out of the Smoke, do something, and then Sneak back in (but that may not be RAW).

After reading Sneak again, I don't think that's how it works rules as written. A player can't sneak into concealment while observed and go from Seen to Sensed. However... I think they really should be able to do that.

Please consider revising this section of the Sneak action rules.

You automatically become seen if you don’t have cover or aren’t concealed from them at any time during your movement, or as soon as you do anything other than Hide or Sneak.

Essentially - I think players should be able to start visible and Sneak behind cover/concealment. Sneaking behind foliage, into a fog bank, under a bridge, or behind an illusion should still grant Sensed...as long as the observer doesn't know where the player ended their Sneak movement.

In the past, I've used three of my non-attacking oriented player characters to measure the versatility of other systems. With Red Flags coming up now seems like the right time to revisit them and noncombat characters in general.

I'm also curious to see how non-attacking characters from other classes shape up in the playtest and if there are any that significantly more viable than their offensive peers (so please share/discuss/analyze any of your favorite non-attacking characters). Of course, I realize that Pathfinder is descended from wargaming but it's broadened into a roleplaying game that can host campaigns that support non-combatant PCs.

Those characters were...
o-- Completely Social Oriented Changeling (Not even a dagger)
o-- Hippocratic Oath Healer (Not quite non-combatant, just non-attacking)
o-- Sickly Subterfuge Focused Thief (Had a dagger but was useless with it)

I hadn’t thought about this for many years but recent events had me looking over old posts at the GitP forums and I spotted the post in which I first decided to use them to measure versatility.

For the sake of that comparison let’s see how competent these non-attacking characters (and any others you have in mind) are in Pathfinder Playtest. There are a few questions I'll be looking to answer.

--| Are they notably better outside of offensive combat than a standard member of their class?
----| If so, what mechanically made them better?
--| What's the most impactful change in the playtest for this style?
--| Do any of the Updates (i.e. 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 etc) make a substantial difference?

We immediately run into some conversion issues so let’s address those first.

--o Social: No Eberron material here. So I guess we'll do a Goblin instead.
--o Healer*: I hate prepared casting so… Angelic Sorcerer it is!
--o Thief: No problem here. I'll just use the optional voluntary flaws rules to lower CON/STR significantly.

*I realize that the Hippocratic Oath Healer isn't quite the best fit for Red Flags but let's look at it anyway.

Though I'm not sure how any of them would survive (spoilers) in the vault.

=-=-=Willow Wisp=-=-=
Completely Social Oriented Changeling

Goblin Ancestry - Because why not?
Noble Background - Weird for a Goblin but fit the original character...who was a Changeling pretending to be a Noble.
Bard Class - The original character was a Rogue but I decided to take the easy way and go for a Bard.

Are they better at their "niche" than a standard member of their class?
Very marginally. Combat Bards can easily match them but there's more focus and versatility.

If so, what mechanically made them better?
All non-attacking Spells gave slightly more utility. Some abilities, like Inspire Courage, were just wasted.
Equipment was the biggest wildcard. The savings from skipping combat gear were significant.

How viable is their non-attacking style?
As a Bard, they have a ton of tricks that augment a non-offensive play style. Their spell list, in particular, enables them to be a master of manipulation. Four degrees of success is helpful in spells like Charm or Dominate but it's hurt by the Tight Math giving Creatures/NPCs higher success rates. Legendary Negotiator seemed like a gamechanger when I first read it but, at least for a Bard who can cast Dominate, it doesn't make as much of a difference because it comes online so late in the game.

What's the most impactful change in the playtest for this style?
The Tight Math and reduction of static bonuses like Skill Focus. No more insanely high Diplomacy at Level 1.

Does the Update (i.e. 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc) applied make a substantial difference?
1.2 - Removing Signature Feats was a plus.

=-=-=The Doctor=-=-=
Hippocratic Oath Healer

Human Ancestry - Fit the original.
Scholar Background - No Healer Background?
Sorcerer Class - Original was spontaneous as well.

Are they better at their "niche" than a standard member of their class?
Yes.

If so, what mechanically made them better?
All non-attacking Spells gave slightly more utility. (This is where I complain about how much I miss Life Oracle.)

Equipment was the biggest wildcard. The savings from skipping weapons were significant.

How viable is their non-attacking style?
Your milage may vary. More so in larger groups, less so in smaller groups.

What's the most impactful change in the playtest for this style?
Magic Armor and Magic Weapon parity. Use to be able to blow up AC by giving up a weapon.

Does the Update (i.e. 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc) applied make a substantial difference?
1.2 - No more Signature Skills!
1.3 - Treat Wounds!

=-=-=Artful Dodger=-=-=
Sickly Subterfuge Focused Thief

Human Ancestry - Fit the original. (Original was an old man using D&D 3.5's aging rules.)
Street Urchin Background
Rogue Class

Are they better at their "niche" than a standard member of their class?
Marginally. Sadly, lots of dead levels where Rogue class feats are all geared for combat.

If so, what mechanically made them better?
Skipping physical Ability Boosts and skipping combat gear.
The base Rogue has a ton of Skill Feats and Skill Increases that there's no significant difference between attacking and non-attacking on that front.

How viable is their non-attacking style?
Somewhat viable. Skill Feats like Lengthy Diversion make a big difference.

What's the most impactful change in the playtest for this style?
The Tight Math and reduction of static bonuses like Skill Focus. No more insanely high Bluff at Level 1.

Does the Update (i.e. 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc) applied make a substantial difference?
1.2 - No more Signature Skills!

I feel my head just got hit by a truck. Might just be a long week at work but it might also be the last 2.5 hours of helping my players level up. Then again, it may be karma punishing me for saying that diverse abilities are good earlier today.

Up until now, I found character creation much easier in the playtest than in Pathfinder First Edition. But that was only creating Level 1 and Level 4 characters. Both of my Doomsday Dawn groups skipped Affair at Sombrefell Hall and my two other groups are still low level, so The Mirrored Moon is the highest level character creation done to date. It was rough. Primarily because of the overwhelming breadth of abilities - which is something I'm surprised to find myself listing as a negative.

I noticed a few core problems.
--| Almost everything tries to do something interesting...which means almost everything adds conditional rules.*
--| Clear incremental increases were limited to the proficiency system. After HP, Skill Increases were the most straightforward part of leveling up! So why does everything take the complicated route?
--| The character sheet was ill equipped for it. Is the plan just that players will just write the name of an ability and then reference it using a book/website? That's how it feels.
--| Ability Scores need to go away. We only need Ability Modifiers. It would save room on a cluttered character sheet and eliminate a point of confusion for new players.
--| Still no section for Armor or Shields? This is confusing.
--| General Feats were generally boring afterthoughts.
--| Skill Feats were quickly overwhelming and just selected them based on name.
--| One player was very engaged and basically did most of it independently but the other three were very much frozen. Lots of prompting.
--| The most experienced player (I call him the novice due to having three years of TTRPG playing under his belt) had the hardest time creating a character. He eventually used a pregen and just leveled it up. He said Pathfinder First Edition character creation was easier.

*But there's no room to write those rules and if there were it would be overwhelming.

Suggestions to remedy some of this.
--| Characters gain fewer feats but those feats scale. Particularly Skill Feats.
--| Get rid of General Feats...donate that space to fleshing out some details.
--| Can all proficiency use a system like Skill Increase?
--| Fewer Conditional Bonuses, more universal bonuses or easily remembered boosts.
--| Equipment and Treasure should be in the same chapter. Very time consuming to flip back and forth.

Whew. How about you? What kind of experience have you had with character creation? At what level? Any suggestions?

I'm a fan of giving all players a Heritage and Ancestry feat at Level 1... But I'm not a fan of many of the Heritages. I think Heritages should be akin to D&D 3.5's "subraces" while many of the current options are really just re-purposed Ancestry feats. There's not a lot of narrative clout behind most of them.

So - looking at it from the big picture - the first thing that I'd do is revise all of the Heritage options to be fit that criteria. I'd revert several of the current Heritages back to being Ancestry feats or combine them into a single Heritage. The rest I'd "beef" up. Here's a reworking of Desert Dwarf as an example.

Clan of Molten Rock
Traits: Heritage, Dwarf
Your clan's forges were fiery underground tunnels of magma and they are renowned for their incredible resilience to hot environments.
This grants you resistance to fire equal to half your level (minimum 1) and the ability to ignore extreme and severe heat up to 140° F.
When using the Craft downtime activity to make a metallic item using lava or magma as your forge, treat your level as one higher.
You gain Smoke Vision: The dwarf ignores concealment from smoke.

(The Duergar definitely need their own Heritage.)

Then I'd ensure that all Ancestries had a common trait. For Dwarf, I'd bring back Unburdened but strengthen it to ignoring all speed reduction from armor or encumbrance.

Base Dwarf
+10 HP
20 Movement
Medium Size
Unburdened: Ignore speed reduction from armor/encumbrance
+2 CON, +2 WIS, +2 Any

So a Dwarf from the Clan of Molten Rock would have 20 movement, +10 starting HP, fire resistance, heat resistance, a conditional crafting bonus, smoke vision, and ignore speed reduction from armor/encumbrance.

Next I'd add some Ancestry-independent Heritages like...
--|Half Orc/Elf/Goblin/etc (Of course I'd bring this back up).
--|Half Dragon, Dhampir, Planetouched, etc. (Ancestral related)
--|Lycanthrope, etc. (Curse/Disease related)
--|Clockwork, Golem, etc. (Facsimiles)

Of course - the downside of locking "Half" Ancestries to Heritage is that we couldn't have an Aasimar Clan of the Molten Rock Dwarf. There's probably a simple workaround.

I'd also add more Ancestry feats. Lots more. For our example Dwarf, I'd add a chain that dramatically improves crafting, something that switches resonance from CHA to CON, something that grants temp hp when reduced to dying by a critical strike, something that adds an intoxicating quality to alchemist infusions, something that improves Call of Ancient Blood, and so on.

So that's the big picture. There are a lot of smaller edits that I'd make - like nerfing the Human ancestry - but I thought it more interesting to start with the big changes.

How about you? What would you change?

It's a bit odd but, to date, I haven't had a single Arcane Caster in any of my playtest sessions. I have had two Occult casters and that got me looking at the Occult spell list. There's a lot of overlap with Arcane and, at least to me, I don't have a clear sense of what differentiates Occult and Arcane. I like the concept of the Occult spell list but I think the line needs to be drawn a bit more strongly.

If this forum supported tables I'd show you a spell level by spell level comparison but instead I took the Occult spell list and removed all of the spells that also appear on the Arcane list. I probably missed a few spells and miscounted a few times, but this should be accurate enough to make the point.

Trivia
The Arcane spell list has 36 more spells than the Occult spell list (by my count).
The Occult spell list has 53 spells that do not appear on the Arcane spell list (by my count).
The Occult spell list has no Sixth Level spells that do not appear on the Arcane spell list.
The Occult spell list only has a single Eighth Level spell - Spiritual Epidemic - that does not appear on the Arcane spell list.
Spiritual Epidemic also appears on the Divine spell list.

Is Occult the new Necromancy?
This has me wondering... Is Occult the new Necromancy? It feels like a random assortment of spells that vaguely fit a theme but don't really sync mechanically. I know that we'll likely see more thematic spells down the road as new material is added but I'm not exactly certain what the theme is suppose to be?

Follow up
Now I'm curious about overlap between all four spell lists. What are the unique spells for each spell list?

Let me start by saying...Shield Block is cool. The mechanics need some polishing but the image is fantastic. It definitely evokes the cinematic.

This thread serves two purposes. One is to ask that armor is divided into a different set of proficiency groups and the second that those groups each get a special Armor Action akin to Shield Block. This came out of the Concept: Choosing your proficiencies thread.

Like others - I don't like Light Armor proficiency "building" up to Medium Armor and then that "building" up to Heavy Armor. I'd rather that we have five Armor Groups: Simple Armor, Light Armor, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, and Exotic Armor.

ARMOR GROUPS

Well, paladins get really forced into it, with more heavy armor proficiency than light or medium, and their ability to auto-crit succesful Fort saves while wearing heavy armor. Yay. I have to wear this particular type of armor to get all my class features.

Here's some random brainstorming for Armor Actions based on those Armor Groups.

The boards have been full of dreadful tales of the Manticore so, as GM, I was bracing myself for a near TPK when one of my groups went up against this terror. Instead, it was a hard encounter but hardly an extreme one?

Here's the group.
--o Ranger with Longbow
--o Primal Sorcerer with Shortbow
--o Alchemist
--o Barbarian
--o Occult Sorcerer with Sling

I used hit & run (or hit & fly rather) tactics as well as plenty of ranged spike attacks. Because of this they only landed a single melee strike when the Manticore went all in to kill the troublesome Ranger. The Alchemist did use smokebombs to create artificial cover for the squishier members of the group. We were also running update 1.3 with Treat Wounds and Hunted Shot? The Barbarian was essentially useless - except for that single melee strike - but everyone else had ranged options (Alchemist threw a few bombs but focused on utility) and were relatively effective. The Ranger was MVP whittling down the Manticore's health using Hunted Shot which gave him enough actions to attack and take advantage of the smoke cover.

Anyway, how did your group fare? What is your Tale of the Manticore?

All in all, I'm happy with the direction the playtest is taking with Combat mode and Downtime mode. There are some areas that still need some work but, at least from my perspective, it's only getting better with each update.

However...Exploration Mode just doesn't quite feel right to me. It's been hard to run for players and feels very rigid...when this should be the most open ended mode? The Rules Survey asked a few questions about Exploration Mode but I wanted to get into a more in-depth discussion about it.

For reference: http://pf2playtest.opengamingnetwork.com/playing-the-game/exploration-mode/

What do I want from Exploration mode?
Whew. Everything? I want it all? I want a system that's structured enough to give players a framework to launch off of but fluid enough that they can initiate any plan that they can imagine. I also don't want it to be too open ended because then the most outgoing players end up dominating (i.e. most freeform or rules lite games I've been in). As a GM, I accomplished this in Pathfinder First Edition primarily through improvisation and quick judgement calls - but I feel like the rigidly outlined tactics hinder that approach (e.g. Were you Carousing or Stealing? No, you can't be Looking Out at the same time.) I love the four stages of success in combat...but I miss gradient success in Exploration mode.

I want players to be able to make unexpected use of their abilities and to surprise me with their RP (e.g. let's take the cult leader's head to the mage guild and get them to ID the markings). I don't want everything strictly defined and laid out. Now, I can just empower players to do this as GM but I'd rather try to improve the system at the playtest phase rather than spending the next decade ignoring large portions of it (especially since I love skill feats and want to reward players for using them).

How could Exploration mode be improved?
Open Ended Path to Success: Fate Core has a great system for Social Conflict. It's open ended enough that lots of approaches and synergies work, but it has a clear goal and objective. I know this is a departure from past d20 systems but I'd like to see the playtest incorporate something like this into Exploration mode (and not specifically for Social Conflict). I think Rose Street Revenge would have benefited from a more nuanced system like this.

Variety of Skill Fumbles: I'd like Skills to be more interesting than Succeed/Fail or even a series of Successes (ugh - the lockpick thing isn't fun). I houseruled Fumbles for Skills in Pathfinder First Edition and it was a blast! Most of the time my players liked rolling Natural 1s because they knew something interesting (and usually hilarious) would happen. But the four degrees of success bake it into Exploration Mode in a way that I really don't like. More open ended results like "roll on this table" or "GM determines outcome" would help. Even better, incorporate a more dynamic Open Ended Path to Success as noted above, that encourages fluidity and teaches new GMs how to improvise results.

Gradient Success: Bring back scaling success for certain Actions. Knowledge, for instance, had this in Pathfinder First Edition and I usually ran most skills this way. Limiting everything to one of four degrees of success quickly becomes stale and doesn't reward player investment.

Higher Skill Success Rate: I really don't mind a 50% miss change in combat because missing an attack doesn't necessarily result in overall failure but it's a real dead end in Exploration mode. Failing a skill check often means overall failure for whatever you were doing. Oh well, that's it, you failed. I'd let characters be better at Skills (i.e. higher success rate) or make room for safe failures (i.e. Skill Fumbles).

Reevaluate Tactics: The new action economy opened up a whole world of tactical options in Combat mode. Alternatively, I have a sense that Exploration Tactics may be doing the opposite...locking things down into rigidly defined activities. I'm not sure what the answer is - need to experiment more - but I think Exploration Tactics would benefit from a closer look. A lot of attention has been given to Combat but Exploration is a core part of the experience and shouldn't be neglected.

There's a starting point for discussion. Now, please share what you want from Exploration mode and what you think could improve it?

A long time ago I put too much work into a homebrew d20 System Racial Trait Progression ruleset that I never completed. Looking over the Pathfinder Second Edition Ancestries I find myself instinctively going back to that creative space and thinking up additions to it.

So... Here's a thread for all of us to brainstorm options that we'd like to have added to the Ancestry/Heritage system.

Allow me to start with some adaptions from my old homebrew ruleset.

Feat: Bite Back the Bile (Reaction); Level 1; Common
Traits: Half Orc / Orc
Trigger: You are afflicted with Poison or the Sick condition.
The demands of your body cannot compete with your bloodlust, you push back illness or poison until you can afford it. When this feat is triggered, you may delay becoming sickened or poisoned by 1 round. This delay lowers duration of the poison and sick condition by 1.

Feat: Stoneborn Resilience (Reaction); Level 1; Common
Traits: Dwarf
Trigger: You are reduced to 0HP by a critical success.
As the strongest metal is forged in hotted fires so Dwarfs stand resolute against the greatest adversity. When triggered you do not gain the dying condition, instead immediately gain 1HP and temporary hitpoints equal to your constitution modifier x your level. You are bolstered against the source of the critical success.

Feat: Wannabe Gremlin; Level 1; Common
Traits: Goblin
Some Goblins just want to watch the world burn, others just want to watch from the shadows as a carefully planned prank ruins someone's day. When you roll a Success or Critical Success on the Disable Device action while Unseen, treat the number of successes as doubled.

So - what homebrew Ancestry/Hertiage feats have been percolating in the back of your mind?

In Pathfinder First Edition, Diehard was one of my favorite feats. It really felt like a FEAT...my character breaking the rules of the world by remaining conscious and fighting when below 0HP.

Benefit: When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you automatically stabilize. You do not need to make a Constitution check each round to avoid losing additional hit points. You may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

When using this feat, you are staggered. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some swift actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If your negative hit points are equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you immediately die.

In contrast, Diehard in the playtest grants, frankly, a boring improvement that doesn't really change things all that much. The character dies at 5 instead of 4 so they can lay unconscious a bit longer or get yo-yo healed one additional time.

Feat: Diehard; Level 1; Common

Traits: General
Skill
It takes more to kill you than most. You die from the dying condition at dying 5, rather than dying 4.

Please consider revising the playtest feat to be more like the old version.

Feat: Diehard; Level 1; Common

Traits: General
Skill

You refuse to go down while there's still life in you. The dying condition no longer causes you to go unconscious, instead you remain conscious but with the slow 1 condition. You die from the dying condition at dying 5, rather than dying 4.

That's a simple addition that, in my opinion, makes the feat far more dynamic and appealing. I don't think it's overpowered by any stretch.

I've had playtest sessions for four groups. Two in Doomsday Dawn, one in Rose Street Revenge, and my regular homebrew group.

I'm curious who your players have been? What's their background and TTRPG experience? What have they played? What did they individually think of the playtest?

Here are mine so far.

Who - Pop. My Dad.
Previous Experience - A single session of Pathfinder First Edition. Master of the Fallen Fortress. No interest in TTRPG until this year after reading some Forgotten Realms novels.
What did he play - Halfing Monk
What did he think - Generally positive. Not much feedback on mechanics, more focused on story elements. Did like starting wealth, character creation, and action economy more than First Edition. Said they were less confusing.

Who - The Wife. My Spouse.
Previous Experience - Decades of D&D, White Wolf, and Pathfinder.
What did she play - Human Fighter and Dwarf Barbarian
What did she think (v 1 and update 1.3)- She was shocked that playing a Fighter was dynamic and fun. Loved the action economy and critical system. Disappointed by Barbarian as compared to Fighter.

Who - The Brother. D&D diehard who prefers 3.5 and Fifth to Pathfinder.
Previous Experience - Lots of D&D 3.5 and Fifth Edition experience. Some Mouseguard and other random one offs.
What did he play (v1 and update 1.2) - Halfling Bard
What did he think - "Don't see why we'd play this instead of Fifth Edition."

Who - The Rookie.
Previous Experience - Three sessions of Fate Core.
What did he play - Human Fighter
What did he think - Positive. Liked the core rules but found the secondary rules confusing. Said this was more his speed than Fate Core.

Who - The Novice.
Previous Experience - Introduced him to TTRPG with a Pathfinder First Edition campaign three years ago. Also, some Fate Core and Starfinder.
What did he play - Dwarf Barbarian
What did he think (v1 and update 1.2) - Very excited about the system and the changes, very disappointed by how outclassed Barbarian seemed to be by the Fighter in the group.

Who - Long time GM of other systems.
Previous Experience - Lots of homebrew systems as well as D&D,
What did he play - Human Sorcerer
Pathfinder First Edition, D&D 3.5, Battletech, Fate Cote, etc.
What did he think - Positive. Very excited about action economy and more tactical gameplay. Major problem he had was the organization of the rulebook.

Who - Dad and two teenage sons from Church.
Previous Experience - Halfway through Fifth Edition Storm King’s Thunder. One son is DMing.
What did they play - Goblin Alchemist, Human Rogue, Human Fighter
What did they think (update 1.2) - Extremely positive (but was it because of the system or the experience of TTRPG with an established players/non-familial GM?). They did note that they loved the customization options many times.

Who - Fumbler. Novice player with terrible die luck.
Previous Experience - Introduced him to TTRPG with a Pathfinder First Edition campaign three years ago. Some Star Trek Adventures as well.
What did he play - Human Alchemist
What did he think (update 1.3)- Very positive. Liked the changes to Alchemist and the action economy. But he did have abnormally good luck (for him) rolling that session.

Who - New Pathfinder GM.
Previous Experience - Introduced her to TTRPG with a Pathfinder First Edition campaign three years ago. She's now running Rise of the Runelords for a group.
What did she play - Human Fey Sorcerer with Fighter Dedication
What did she think (update 1.3)- Positive. Liked the action economy and skill feats.

Who - The quiet one.
Previous Experience - Several D&D 3.5 games in University and, more recently, Pathfinder First Edition with me.
What did he play - Half Elf Ranger with Rogue Dedication
What did he think (update 1.3)- Not sure. He was very quiet. He usually is but he keeps on coming back so he must be having a good time.

Who - That guy from work.
Previous Experience - D&D Fifth Edition. Maybe some other versions? Not sure.
What did he play - Gnome Sorcerer
What did he think (update 1.2)- Generally positive. Liked action economy and faster combat.

Who - DM from University.
Previous Experience - Decades of D&D 3/3.5, d20 Modern, and White Wolf. Some Pathfinder First Edition as a player. (His true love is White Wolf.)
What did he play - Halfling Sorcerer
What did he think (update 1.2)- Not much feedback. Liked the action economy with casting and expressed surprise at how fast character creation was.

How about you? Who has been at your playtest table?

On Friday, I ran a new group through The Lost Star using the 1.2 update. We did character creation before the session and the removal of Signature Skills significantly changed the experience for the better. I didn't really have a problem with character creation before but this change opened up so many more options. On Sunday, I had a mini-session with some of my regular players converting their existing characters from Pathfinder First Edition to the Playtest. Again - the removal of Signature Skills allowed for a much more satisfactory level of customization.

Since Monday I've been reading the threads theorizing on how the update 1.3 multiclass dedications 'would' be powergamed and, like others, rebelled at the thought of someone taking a 'dip' in Paladin just to get armor proficiency.

All of this is going to a proposal for your consideration. I like niche protection and I like character customization, but why not go for the best of both worlds?

After First Level, let characters invest their proficiency however they choose. If a Fighter wants to go for Legendary Will, let them make that investment instead of boosting Fortitude. If a Wizard wants to go for Legendary Martial Weapons, let them do so instead of investing in their Spellcasting proficiency. This isn't too different from the removal of Signature Skills - which sets the starting point for a class at First Level by locking in a skill or two but then opens up the floodgates of the imagination.

Instead - focus niche protection on abilities; on the unique actions that the classes can take. For instance, I like the idea of Barbarian flavored archery...that's something interesting for a character to multiclass to gain. But if a Rogue wants to have better armor proficiency...why not let them put their precious character resources into it without taking a dip in Paladin. Alternatively, if they want to play something like an Inquisitor...perhaps they want Retributive Strike but don't want better armor proficiency at all?

I'm preparing to fully convert my current Pathfinder First Edition homebrew campaign to the Playtest rules. We ran a hybrid session last time - adding in five of the new rules but keeping the rest the same. Now I'm doing One on One sessions with each player to convert their characters and run them through a short tutorial (which follows up on them getting separated last session after they realized that their Giant hosts were planning to eat them).

I've been running Doomsday Dawn and Rose Street Revenge as official playtests...but I'm going to be much more free here. I'll be adding some houserule content - like double the starting ancestry feats, one hour healing rituals, and some new reactions - and balancing things through GM fiat as we go. For instance, Barbarians seem a bit too weak in my opinion so I'll drop that slightly more powerful magic item earlier than recommended. I'll also be changing rules on the fly as I deem necessary. Not great for playtest surveys but good for converting over a living campaign.

I'd given everyone in the campaign a single free max rank profession or crafting skill of their choice. It's nice that Lore will effectively replace/surpass that hourserule. I also removed Alignment and replaced it with a "Taint" mechanic. I'll keep that in place as well.

Current group is...
--o Half Elf Slayer: Focused on wilderness skills and bowmanship.
--o Half Elf Hunter: Focused on wilderness skills, her animal companion, and a balanced combat style .
--o Dwarf Barbarian: Focused on crafting and general meatshield.
--o Human Investigator: Skill monkey that isn't great in combat.
--o Gnome Oracle: Rotting flesh and powerful time magic.

I'm thinking of the following conversion...
--o Half Elf Slayer -> Half Elf Ranger with Rogue Dedication
--o Half Elf Hunter -> Half Elf Fey Sorcerer with Fighter Dedication
--o Dwarf Barbarian -> Dwarf Barbarian
--o Human Investigator -> Human Alchemist with Rogue Dedication
--o Gnome Oracle -> Gnome Sorcerer...with custom "curse" bloodline casting from the occult spell list

I plan to add a few houserules to make the conversion work but I don't think I need too many.
--o I'm going to give Ranger some more bow options. See what Slayer appropriate archery I can think up.
--o I need to turn a Sorcerer into an Oracle. Sorcerer powers can cover Oracle Revelations but might make the Curse a custom Archetype? Not sure.
--o Investigator loves Inspiration. Might houserule an equivalent - maybe just a cheaper use of Hero Points? Not sure.

If anyone is interested I'll keep this going with updates and would enjoy reading your houserule suggestions.

Players are going to find ways to heal up out of combat when there are no time constraints. They'll do this with whatever option is the most reliable and has the least impact - they'll use wands of cure light wounds if those are an option or they'll just end up retreating back to camp/town for the day (resulting in 15 minute adventuring days). Oftentimes, in my experience, Game Masters will give them "free" healing items just to keep them from going to town for the night after 15 minutes of adventuring.

If we want to have out of combat healing that is 1) not mundane, 2) not item based, 3) thematic, and 4) disruptable I'd like to propose adding one hour rituals to the game.

I suggested a Healing Circle ritual in another thread and Dire Ursus offered some helpful additions that made me like the idea even more.

I don't think it'd be that hard to add some 1 hour rituals. It'd mix well with the other 1 hour activities currently in the game (identifying items, repairing dents). Imagine Sorcerer is identifying a magic item, the fighter is repairing a dent in his shield and the Rogue is using his esoteric knowledge to create a healing circle to heal his party, each taking 1 hour. That seems to work out nicely.

I really like the scene evoked there - a short period of downtime where party members are doing useful things which could be interrupted if the GM decides to challenge them.

Here are some rough examples of what I'm suggesting by One Hour Healing Rituals (and I'm not suggesting these as written - just throwing them out as rough examples).

PRIMAL RITUAL - Ley Healing
Casting - 1 Hour
Cost - Uncommon Herbs worth a total of (whatever is balanced) x spell level
Secondary Casters - 1, Nature or Medicine
Proficiency - expert in Nature
Range - 10 Feet; Targets all creatures within range
You call upon the ley magic laying dormant in the earth and channel its power through sacred herbs to provide healing to those around you. Etc, etc.
Success - Creatures in range regain your class modifier hitpoints per spell level and remove one disease afflicting the targets.
Critical Success - Creatures in range regain your class modifier hitpoints per spell level and remove all diseases afflicting the targets.
Failure - Nothing occurs.
Critical failure - Creature in range are bolstered.

Heightened - Whatever is balanced.

Thematic Example - Lord of the Rings, JRR Tolkien

Aragorn knelt beside Faramir, and held a hand upon his brow. And those that watched felt that some great struggle was going on. For Aragorn’s face grew grey with weariness; and ever and anon he called the name of Faramir, but each time more faintly to their hearing, as if Aragorn himself was removed from them, and walked afar in some dark vale, calling for one that was lost ... taking two leaves, he laid them on his hands and breathed on them, and then he crushed them, and straightway a living freshness filled the room, as if the air itself awoke and tingled, sparkling with joy. And then he cast the leaves into the bowls of steaming water that were brought to him, and at once all hearts were lightened. For the fragrance that came to each was like a memory of dewy mornings of unshadowed sun in some land of which the fair world in spring is itself but a fleeting memory. But Aragorn stood up as one refreshed, and his eyes smiled as he held a bowl before Faramir’s dreaming face ... suddenly Faramir stirred, and he opened his eyes, and he looked on Aragorn who bent over him; and a light of knowledge and love was kindled in his eyes, and he spoke softly. ‘My lord, you called me. I come."

OCCULT RITUAL - Siphon Eternal Existence

Success - Creatures in range regain your class modifier in hitpoints per spell level.
Critical Success - Creatures in range regain double your class modifier in hitpoints per spell level.
Failure - Nothing occurs.
Critical failure - The caster is afflicted with a curse.

Heightened - Whatever is balanced.

Thematic Example - Goldenhand, Garth Nix

“Best heal Nick first,” muttered Lirael. She kept one eye on the Free Magic creature as she once again reached for the Charter, this time delving deeper into the eternal flow. Seeking out rarer, more powerful marks, which required both certain knowledge of them and a great effort of will to draw them out. When she had them all arranged and held in her mind, she spoke the word that would call a master mark from the Charter. It came out, slowly turning like a brilliant wheel, with the other marks following in a long spiral. Lirael moved the master mark with her golden hand and the direction of her mind, setting it against Nick’s chest. The spiral tightened to become something like a golden, shining tornado and very slowly began to spin its way into the young man’s body, the golden light of its passage spreading down through his torso and out along his limbs.

Lirael wiped her forehead and rather shakily got to her feet, still watching the miniature spiral of gold and silver Charter marks patiently wind its way into Nick’s chest. She was weary now, the effort of casting such a spell taxing her strength.

Those rough examples should provide an idea of what I'd love to see. Reliable out of combat healing that's accessible, interesting, and disruptable.

There are plenty of other motiffs that could be adopted...
o-- evil characters (ala blighters) who siphoning the life force from nature to heal themselves
o-- carefully crafted totems designed to capture fey spirits and force them to provide healing until they escape
o-- occult chants over bubbling cauldrons full of alchemic components...resulting in a bitter sludge that somehow restores vitality
o-- shamanistic ceremonies involving the caster taking damage themselves to summon a spirit that heals the rest of the party
o-- musical performances that soothe the soul and accelerate physical healing (a day of healing in an hour)
o-- deep guided meditations that channel ki to heal those mediating physically
...and so on.

Anyway - please consider this option. I think it's more fun than wands of cure light wounds and a lot less immersion breaking than heading back to town in the middle of an adventure.

I was disappointed when I opened Deadmanwalking's Reaction Thread to discover that it was just a feedback thread. I was hoping that it was going to be a thread about Reactions! After I had that thought, I knew I had to make it a reality.

What do I think about Reactions?
I love them…but they could be so much more.

How could they be so much more?
More utility and more flavor. No Retreat, Crane Flutter, Opportune Backstab, Storm Retribution, and Breath of Life are examples of what I’d like to see more of.

Here are some examples of the kind of reactions I’d like added…
Sidestep (Rogue/Monk Reaction): When a hostile creature ends its stride movement adjacent to a Rogue/Monk, the Rogue/Monk can make a Step as a reaction before the creature takes their next action.
Bedazzled (Bard Reaction): When a hostile creature targets the Bard with a strike, the Bard can trigger a magical flash as a reaction to cause the creature before dazzled. This takes effect before the strike is resolved.
No Escape (Ranger Reaction): When a hunted target strides within melee range of a Ranger, the Ranger gets a free trip attack as a reaction.
Component Spray (Alchemist Reaction): After taking damage from a strike attack, the Alchemist can fling alchemic components at a target within five feet as a reaction.
Dying Fury (Barbarian Reaction): When reduced to 0 HP, the Barbarian can activate Rage as a reaction. If restored to consciousness through temp HP the Barbarian can make a free melee strike.
Healing Spells (Healing/Necromancy): More healing spells that cast with reactions!

What do YOU think about the current reactions and are there any reactions that you'd like to see?

I've run sessions of The Lost Star (two GMs, one novice player, one new to TTRPG player) and Rose Street Revenge (one experienced player, one new to TTRPG player) for two different groups (no player overlap). Planning to convert my current homebrew Pathfinder campaign over to the playtest rules starting on Saturday. Here's the big list of feedback so far.

Some general edits that I’d like to see…

• Character sheet:
Where do ancestry non-feats go? Like Unburden? How about low light vision or darkvision? Bulk is a great simplification that’s made almost incomprehensible by the equation on the Character Sheet. No section for unarmored proficiency – I used what I think is the exotic weapon slot but should have it’s own.

• Equipment/Treasures:
I’d like to see this section of the rulebook labelled and organized more clearly. Knowing where to look up potions, for instance, was perplexing. Also, could we have subsection tabs with the section tabs to help navigate to armor, weapons, gear quickly. Per Ultimate Equipment. This actually might be a nice addition for all sections with subsections.

• Cantrips:
How many does a prepared caster know? Had a terrible time finding this. Not included in the charts or the paragraph on cantrips – is noted in an earlier paragraph but buried in text. I’d like the spells known chart to be more comprehensive.

• Spell Points:
I’m not a fan of the name. It feels weird for non-casters to use “Spell Points” for their powers. I know using “Power Points” would cause Dreamscarred Press some grief when they bring Psionics to the system but that wording feels more accurate.

• Powers in the Spell Section:
I’m not a fan of their inclusion here. I’d like to see them have their own subsection.

• Backgrounds in Ancestry:
I know B is the small fry in the A-B-C character creation phase but it’s hard to find it hiding at the back of the ancestry section. Same with languages. Would like it to stand out more.

• A-B-C-4 Character Creation:
It’s a silly mistake on my part but I completely skipped the four free ability boosts during my first character creation. Not a mistake I’ll make again but would like to see that better emphasized.

• Half Human:
Any core ancestry should be able to be Half Orc or Half Elf. Would like the system to give by default the plethora of options that Pathfinder is known for.

• Skill Tiers:
I’d like it if the scenarios noted skill tiers for checks. For instance, a Religion check could have an Expert tag to designate that Recall Knowledge needed an E proficiency or higher to gain certain information. This is something that I’ll do fluidly in my homebrew sessions but would be nice to outline in an published adventure.

• Add Poison to Index:
The only poison entries point towards equipment, would be helpful to have one pointing towards the affiliation rules which outline how poison works.

• Lore Subcategories:
The Additional Lore feat directs to, “choose an additional Lore skill subcategory” but players were confused if they could make this anything or if it had to be from a background they selected. More guidance here.

• Class DC or Spell DC:
These are the same thing so why not call them the same thing? Spells use your Class DC? This would further simplify things.

• Shields on Character Sheet:
Shields could really use their own section on the character sheet. Tracking the various attributes of a shield is complicated enough without sprawling it on the side of the page.

• Furious Focus:
The Press trait was confusing. Please add text clarifying that this can only be used when the character already has a MAP.

• Goblins:
A few players considered playing Goblin but no one ended up doing so. Everyone was confused by them getting a CHA bonus.

• Sorcerer:
Could we add "Cursed" bloodline so Mystic can be fully integrated into the spontaneous core class?

• Archetypes:
Can the final rules please include multiclass dedications for all core classes (except perhaps Paladin and Monk)?

• Resonance:
This really didn't come up much at low levels but... I like the concept but not the implementation. The players just found it confusing.

On the positive side of things…

• Combat:
Fast, fluid, and fun. Leagues superior to low level Pathfinder 1e. The new emphasis on movement and simplification of actions makes this a whole new game. Restricting AoO was a stroke of genius.

• Proficiency:
There's a small learning curve here but once you clear it this is a great simplification. It really speeds up character creation. Nice that 70% of the character sheet uses the same system.

• Criticals:
The players LOVED the new critical system to my surprise even when they were on the receiving end.

• Characters:
System has support for a massive range of characters - Arcane Trickster, Magus, etc available just in core rulebook. Building characters is rough at first but soon becomes fun – especially as there are fewer “trap options” as compared to Pathfinder 1e.

• Skills:
It felt wrong to see most skills between -1 and 0, but the DCs were adjusted to compensate and it was well balanced (at least at level one). The streamlined skills make sense but would like to see more skill boosts/signature skills. The Monk especially felt limited on the skill front.

• Silver Economy:
It’s a surprisingly significant adjustment but the new silver economy seems great. Most mundane items are available for copper or silver, while most entry level magic items can be had for a handful of gold. This definitely gives the world a more grounded feeling and offers a more measured progression. Gold feels meaningful.

• Dying:
In a 180° turn from my initial opinion, the Dying rules (especially as clarified in update 1.1) ended up not being all that complicated after all. We actually liked them in use – even the player who was dying.

• Combat Maneuvers as Skills:
This is a brilliant change. It simplifies combat maneuvers – no more CMB/CMD – while making skills much more dynamic. The experienced players were fans.