The Bestiary Centaur does, but not the PC Monstrous Race. But I thought they should still have a hoof attack. Do you think they need another one? I feel ANY extra attack in a race is pretty amazing.
Search Posts
Thanks! I certainly can't take all the credit though. This is kinda my first major thread experience and it's awesome to have people legitimately want to help some rando like me :D BTW What was the horn thing? It seems as if you are referencing something, though I don't think I've seen you comment here yet. I'm actually quite curious on what your millions of tiny horns idea was!
1. I think you're right about that. Barding rules in regards to speed probably don't need to be applied. The regular carrying capacity rules are probably sufficient (I forgot that it slows you down). 2. They don't. And yes, partially a mechanic thing. I figured having an extra attack from the very beginning was enough of a bonus, regardless of its low success rate. Plus it's another roll you have to think about. Thematically I see them rearing up and smacking opponents with their 2 front hooves. 2 hooves, but technically one attack. Or one really good back kick. 3. Do you think they need one? I know I was gung-ho about blindsight and stuff, but as they are now the class is around elf to drow range. In RP amounts anyways. 4. I greatly appreciate the amount of help you and this thread has given me, but I think this is a point we're not going to agree on. You feel the rules that are in place are sufficient, and I feel there needs to be "new rules" regarding Tauric PC races. The refinements I've made to those "new rules" are because of everyone on this page, and I'm much happier with them so far. For example, the extra 100lb is easier than doing the quadruped math and we discussed earlier about the rules regarding centaurs and barding. Buying armor for a centaur wouldn't be the issue. It's when armor loot is concerned I feel they'd be shafted with the normal rules. My reasoning is; if they can only wear barding, then most if not all armor loot would be unusable for the PC. Or they can wear humanoid armor and I'm left with these "holes" in logic (what happens with the rest of the armor, what about their backside). And there are no rules about mixing humanoid and animal armor. I almost feel I should give them some sort of penalty for not wearing any armor on their rump, but I can't think of anything that would constitute strategic thinking (*is it worth the risk to save my money) I will continue to add the links for people as well: Google Doc ---Google Sheet
I had a squirrelly looking NPC that game the party a magical that was handed down to him from many generations. It turned out that it was a Box O'Many Squirrels. -Outside of combat, many squirrels can be coaxed out for 10 minutes at a time (swarm). These squirrels can follow simple tasks, such as; Teach trick: Attack, Come, Defend, Down, Fetch, Guard, Heel, Perform, Seek, Stay, Track, and Work. -Durring combat one squirrel can be grabbed from the box. Being forcefully removed from the box in this way makes the squirrel jittery and nervous, thus limiting it's time outside the box to 1 round before releasing there physical form. If Squirrels are coaxed out and realize they are instructed into doing things a squirrel wouldn't normally do (such as jumping off a cliff, or trigger traps), they will release their forms and retreat into their box.
Honestly I really like where it's at. Though honestly I liked it before too. The only reason I posted it in the first place was to get more eyes on it. At a certain point in any work, there needs to be some QA. I can only reason to myself so much, you know? Just in case there are more opinions though I'll post the stats in plane text for easier access. Though I will continue to add the links for people as well: Google Doc ---Google Sheet Standard Racial Traits:
Home Brew Editions
-Tauric creatures’ lower body are normally thick skinned and dexterous enough to stave off attacks on its own, however the character can get armor modified to include barding for a creature of its size. Add an additional amount of gold and weight to the original armor equal to ½ the amount for barding of the same type. If the character modifies their armor in this manner the armor gains an additional +1 AC to its original amount. The armor is unwearable by characters who are not centaurs of equal size until modified in reverse. Barding speed penalties work the same as normal. -This creature also cannot ride a mount unless it is two size categories larger and any ride checks are made with a permanent -2 if the centaur is required to straddle the mount. GM suggestions
During climbing checks encourage out of the box thinking to the PC to help with the climbing penalties. Ropes, climbing gear, levitation spells, ext. Nobody likes falling 100ft. Climbing and other Activities *GM Discretion*
Easy guys. Easy. Role playing games like pathfinder take a lot of interpreting. Interpreting leads to opinions. Opinions leads to biases. Biases lead to hate. Hate leads to the Dark Side! I love the passion that my subject has sparked, but let's focus it back up please. I've taken a lot of suggestions into account that revolve on your opinions and I think I've gotten closer to a more balanced and cohesive race. I appreciate all the participation this board has gotten so far!
I don't think a character's *race* should stand out much from a mechanical standpoint. It's the foundation of who they are. Racial bonuses and abilities should be solid, straightforward, and broad. I'd half agree with that. I think some PCs want to optimize the character which needs a compatible race and class. If someone wanted to make a powerful Barbarian, Half Orc is the first thing that comes to mind because of his bonuses. However jumping to the other side, it is a lot of fun to break the norms and create a gnome barbarian. So I get what your saying, I was just over compensating again. It indeed should be broad enough so a PC can use it however they wish, without feeling pigeonholed. Actually, as forest centaurs, horses aren't that much forest animals compared to deer and stuff. My initial mental image when I heard of them was more like a halfling with a deer lower half... Yeah I get that, and I defiantly want to add some Alternate Racial Traits that would more or less change the race into a sub species, like goat or deer. But my initial concept was based on the wants of my friend, so I didn't want to deviate too far away from half horse. I imagine a few centuries ago several centaur herds moved into the forest (for one reason or another) and over time adapted to there environment. Does that backstory need work, sure, but it's to keep in alignment of my original concept. Plus I want to hammer out a relatively stable race before creating Alternate Racial Traits. Most races don't get much in the way of spell-like abilities, if they get any at all. I'd say three 0-level spells *or* one 1-level, not both. As for scent...the 3rd ed. Dungeon Master's Guide specifically warned DM's of how potentially powerful scent can be... It is true that a lot of the core classes don't have any spell-like abilities, but there are several newer that do. Even going as far as having one level 1 spell with one level 2 spell. There are even a couple that have one level 3 spell. Most seem relativity combat oriented without much diversity, but I could be wrong. I think I'll drop the second sense bonus and give a level 2 once per day utility spell. I'm feeling Shape Wood. It touches on the concept of inheriting nature powers and having creative utility without being the "do it every time" spell that my prior choices were. did Paizo not keep 3.5's increased price of armor made for unusual wearers. A centaur basically needs to buy barding and a breastplate They kept it, but it gets kind complicated. The Unusual Wearers section make it sound that the wearers are normally mounts and animal companions. And the Quadruped Racial Trait says, "members of this race use weapons and armor as if they were Medium (instead of Large)." which to me sounds like they are referencing that even though they are a large creature (Regular Centaur) their human half is a size medium. Which means they can wear the chest piece from the breast plate set, as well as maybe the shin guards. This would still leave most of their lower half exposed. Barding would fix this issue mostly, but there are no rules that say how these two armors should work in tandem. Nor does the Quadruped Racial Trait explain how wearing half an armor set still gives you full AC. I tried to keep is as simple as I could, and tried to alleviate this issue. Also giving a small bonus to offset the penalty of the cost and time (especially later with magic gear). Plus it gives the PC rules to follow when looting or buying armor, so the GM doesn't have to make something up on the fly or have out of place loot in their games. "This character can get armor modified to include barding for a creature of its size. Add an additional amount of gold and weight to the original armor equal to ½ the amount for barding of the same type. If the character modifies their armor in this manner the armor gains and additional +1 AC. The armor is unwearable by characters who are not centaurs of equal size until modified in reverse." The +1 AC may seem extravagant, but with finding a place to modified it, the price increase, and the commenters earlier suggesting I give them a Bonus Natural Armor, I think that it's an interesting compromise. Plus the PC doesn't have to do it if they don't want to. Maybe they'd rather save there gold for other things, or maybe modifying magic armor would be too expensive. This rule leaves it open enough to excuse the lower half being exposed and not feel the need to have a weird penalty like I had created earlier. ...I feel like it's mostly just the...(vertical free-climbing) that would be really terrible for them. Though they would probably have to do it differently than normal humanoids because of the differences in body plan. Exactly. And that's just not the kind of thing you need to explain in the race's entry. I mean, you don't see anything about a shark's ability to climb in it's entry. Or an elephant not being able to jump. So I made this into a GM suggestion with a couple of examples instead of being a fast and hard rule. Yet again your guys's logic wins the day ;p I reformatted the Forest Centaur Doc into a Google Sheet to clean it up a bit, but if you wanted to see where and when I edited I will continue to update the original Doc:
Yeah, I missed a couple of things when I wrote my suggestion apparently. My bad ;p I think you're right about the HD and BAB, but if your class is going down super easy maybe they'll need to be a closer to a fighter in the first place. I'm just speaking of self experiences, but when I learn my class goes down really quick, I tend to back off anyways. Which is just me I know, but if someone told me that I'd fall very quickly in battle I'd probably stay away from that class. No matter how much damage I'd do. Thematically I saw the Blizter grabbing 2 bombs and smashing them together when doing a Blitzer’s Boom rather than having an explosion emanate from his being. And to touch on what the other commenters are saying; even though I like the idea of using Charisma, if all it does is change where the bonus come from it might be better to keep things as less complicated as possible, and leave it Intelligence. They say that true intelligence border on insanity. Like blowing yourself up ;)
I really like the concept of a kamikaze alchemist! I'm no alchemist expert, so please take what I suggest with a grain of salt. What I like:
Things I think need refinement:
I think Blitzer's Buff is really cool, but the one thing I'd change would be when you choose what resistance it should have. Since it works in place of Mutagen I assume that it is made in preparation of the day, thus I think it should be chosen what affects it should have when making it, rather when drinking it. Question before critique; Does Blizter's Boom do full damage to everyone in proximity. No splash damage except the Blizter? I kinda think full damage should also apply to him. If you're going to make it strong enough not to have splash, then they shouldn't get the luxury of it either. Blitzer's Beef I think is a little unnecessary. Before constitution mods, and with the Blizter's Buff you're looking at 14 life at level one with a 5 resistance (to presumably the type of bomb they are using) that most likely replenish 2 damage back to your buff. So say you have 1d6+4 (18 Cha) max 10 dmg. If it was splash it would only do 5 dmg which would be negated and not even touch the Buff Bonus. If it full dmg it would still be negated by 7 points (energy + Buff) leaving only 3 dmg dealt to a relatively high hitpool at lvl 1. I think instead change the hit dice from a d8 to a d10 and let them take Toughness if they so choose. That way they can still have craft potion so they don't have to waste money at level 10 to use Blitzer’s Blessing more effectively (without using bomb usages) and the balance of using a feat during progression to make themselves even more powerful. Sticking with Blitzer’s Blessing, I think it shouldn't have any penetration effects. It's plenty powerful within it's own right, and it's still a bomb like an alchemists bomb. Maybe if you stick another bomb usage amount to give it penetration (making it MORE powerful) then I'd be ok with that. And think Chain Reaction should have a more defined explosion time. Instead of right after it hits 0 to a number of rounds after fortitude save failure or death (below Con score). I also think there should be less choice in the manner. If it's chaotic energy, the Blitzer shouldn't be able to choose anything about the exploding corps (whether it explodes or not, what effect, discoveries, safe squares). It should all be chaotic. I hope I wasn't too long winded, and again, I'm not an alchemist expert. You put a lot of thought into this class archetype, and it shows! I hope my critiques made since and were constructive. ;)
centaurs are centaurs, not human upper bodies slapped on horse lower bodies... So I just don’t see them as Climbing exclusively with their upper arms, lower body hanging down like so much dead weight. I see them having figured out or having been taught a race-specific rope trick that lets them put their strong though awkwardly built lower body to work, taking an extra moment to rig it correctly, and then employing all six limbs to climb. You are completely correct. And I don't believe I wrote down anything to indicate as such, which I'll definitely correct as to indicate players are not suck when a climbing check comes up. Quixote suggested I simplify the climbing mechanics which will smooth out how I word the penalty.I don't disagree that they'd figure something out throughout the years, but regardless of techniques they'd still have a harder time than a bipedal creature. Especially if they had no way of using their lower half while hanging off a jutted cliff. If I was the GM and my PC suggested a cleaver way to get themselves down a well, I'd probably negate the penalty all together. In a game I played recently my team lowered a jaguar companion down a well with a series of pulleys thanks to a nice Kn. Engineering check. Did you see the dwarves riding the mountain goats in the third Hobbit film? I distinctly remember one scene with those hooved quadrupeds scaling a sheer cliff with better agility than any biped in the entire film, save Legolas. I would like to create a couple of Alternate Racial Traits, one of which would be a Mt. Goat with climbing bonuses of some kind. Goat hooves and horse hooves are very different, and the Mt Goat hooves are crazy specialized for them to be able to do those stunts. Crazy how those goats are able to actually do that crazy stuff!
Thank you for your well articulated arguments and suggestions Quixote! You want the race to stand out? How about this: they're *centaurs*, man. When I said I wanted them to stand out, I guess I meant mechanically. Obviously a 4 legged half man half animal creature is going to stand out ;p ...what about some 0-level spells and maybe a dash of Speak With Animals, Pass Without Trace or something like that? Fun without being so obviously beneficial. I defiantly latched on that. I wanted something that signified mystical, for they spent there whole life around hunters, rangers, and druids. But when I was conceptualizing it I think I thought more of the fighting mechanics rather than the utility. It wasn't about the extra AC at all, and that's why I had such a hard time letting Barkskin go! So about about this:
I don't care for the penalties to AC against attacks from certain angles or the issues with Climbing. Simple is better. I can get on board with that. Maybe add an increase to armor costs to modify it for the wearer. Though I suppose that my spell like abilities are not revolving around AC anymore, so I could just give an AC bonus. Or both! If the item is tailored/modified for the wearer then they get an AC bonus!? Maybe meet in the middle for the climbing thing? I feel like hooves that don't rap or bend, like a normal feet do, would still make a precarious climb up a vertical cliff. But as I said earlier that it wouldn't be as hard as a vertical rope climb. So how about a vertical climb (ladder, cliff, tree) *-2 circumstance bonus*. Any climb that doesn't use your lower body (vertical rope, dangling from a cliff) *-6 circumstance bonus*? Case and point: horses do not have Blindsense. Centaurs should not get special abilities from being half horse when horses do not have that ability themselves... But yes. No Blindsense Fine. No Blindsense... How about Scent? Pony's and Horse's have sent. Half animal superheros have sent. Normal centaurs don't... but they also have crazy ability score mods and darkvision.
Those are great and logical points. Continuing with that mindset, a centaur wouldn't just have to rely on their upper body on a ladder climb. They could still use their hind legs to support and lift, if they used their legs more than their hooves. I think using a rope like everyone did in gym class (straight up) would be the hardest for a centaur. Though most other scenarios it could be argued that a centaur would still be able to use their legs to help climb. I think an Alternative Racial Trait (Mt Goat) would be cool. Giving a climb bonus or even a climb speed on walls/cliffs in replacement of hoof attack and carrying capacity
It's not about the flavor, I can flavor up a rock. It's about the functionality. It's a stagnate bonus with no triggers or specific circumstances. Just an all around, no draw backs, AC bonus. Que Sera, Sera I suppose.
i still think making them like cenarious from world of warcraft would be a huge boon for flavor and just give them a flat boost to natural armor and not bothering with the barkskin in the 1st place that way it doesn't feel lost when playing a character who gets barkskin on their spell list or plans on buying an amulet of natural armor I didn't have Wow in mind when creating the race, however having antlers would be an interesting Alternate Racial Trait. Or I could make the Alternate Racial Trait be Aspect of the Stag, that'll really make them like Cenarious. I see what you're saying about barkskin. And again you pointed out another thing I didn't notice (That BS and AoNA are both enchantment bonuses thus do not stack) which is lame. Druids or rangers who opt into BS wouldn't really think of buying an AoNA anyways. At least I wouldn't think so. This way a PC could save up for Slippers of Spiderclimb. So in regards to that, I should probably undo the changes I made to the spell itself. But that being said, your argument is very convincing and I may just give them the Natural Armor Bonus Racial trait. Though I extremely hate how generic it is... Definitely some interesting ideas here, though how you handled some of the things like the climb penalty are a little bit clunky to use (I agree they should have some problems climbing in a lot of circumstances, though) What would you suggest to creating smoother climbing penalties?
the bark skin is "op" cuz its not 1/day its at will so its a permanent scaling buff that you can give to the entire party There's the quality assurance I was looking for! All of the comments make sense now...I completely didn't mean to do that... 'Spell-Like Ability, Greater' & 'Spell-Like Ability, At-Will' are right next to each other on the list I was using. In my head I had always intended on using it as a once per day spell. It also never crossed my mind that you could cast it on someone else. I am extremely bad at proofreading my own work. Not to beat a dead centaur but, would these changes make it a more appropriate? 1) Change to Spell-Like Ability, Greater
I could also change it to 'Aspect of the bear' which is similar but doesn't scale and gives more four legged themed bonuses
I would certainly be remiss if I did not take the advice I ask for to heart, so I will make some changes. Maybe I just wanted to make the race unique, and in that process I over compensated and jumped on the racial abilities that no other Paizo race had. But to quell my neurosis, can someone explain why blindsense and Barkskin are overpowered? Blindsense isn't blindsight, meaning I still need to see things to do anything about what I heard. And granted Barkskin is an enchantment bonus so it can stack with other Natural Armor bonuses, but it has a time limit/1 once per day use. Plus I've grown up with horses, and they are not as thick skinned as you think. Though I guess that could be irreverent since we are talking about a fantasy world. Or is it something different? Does my description of the race not lend itself to these abilities? I would love to hear why you guys feel they need changing. I'm not being ungrateful I promise. I genuinely appreciate everyone taking the time to read and discuss this idea.
it would probably be more thematic to just have them have a base natural armor of like 3 and have it thematically be that they have patches of bark for skin rather then the hassle of an at will buff spell I don't know if I'd agree. Generations of creatures being raised by rangers, hunters, and druids doesn't scream becoming part plant. More so they'd be more in touch with their latent magical ability. But thanks for your input ;)
I made some minor tweaks from the suggestions so far. - Blindsense
- Barkskin
- Climbing
Do you think these are enough adjustments or should they still be tweaked? BTW I love your guys' input! It's exciting to hear people liking the idea :D
Quite brilliant an idea, Eskimo, in fact (believe it or not) I too came up with forest dwelling centaurs - with the same features that you've presented - I guess great minds think alike! From the great words of Robin Williams, "Great minds think 4 themselves!" We're are just two equally great minds subject to the Multiple Discovery idea! Sorry I can't help myself in quoting Robin Williams ;p In any case, thanks a lot Jurassic Bard & everyone else! Let's keep them ideas flowing!
I would drop Blindsense and maybe give him 40' Move instead. & Blindsense because of large ears? I just can't see it. Elves have big ears. They get +2 on Perception. Bats have sonar. They get Blindsense. They actually do move 40' It's in a confusing place atm though, I'll change that to make it more easily understood ;)And I was really excited about blind sight, and my thought was these are horse sized ears, not just longer pointer ones. If you watch a horse you can see them use their ears like sonar dishes, or for emotion (which is awesome for flavoring your PCs emotions). It was something to make the race stand out a little more since no regular PC race has it, but it is a little OP when it's in practice. Maybe I'll modify it to be just really good hearing, or a modified version of Blind Sight. Something that complements low light vision instead of outweighing it. emove barkskin sla and just increase base natural armor also boost move speed another 10 & An at-will spell-like ability in a PC race should pretty much be lvl0. Barkskin at will is really, really good. My justification with Barkskin is from the fact they live and breath the forest. Thematically it made since. Also because they get a penalty on their horse half. Maybe instead of getting rid of it entirely, I could limit it to a set number of rounds, instead of 10/lvl
I see why you formatted it the way you did, but formatting it to show how you built it is confusing concerning the base speed. In the Base Speed Quality section" Thanks for the perspective! Maybe I'll add a more traditional sum up of their abilities, like a traditional race entry does. Then after that give all the details of how I built them.
well, you would need to have an all outdoor campaign or you might think about a way you can change form into a biped." This has been one of my main concerns. That or cliffs. Usually the GM can determine if it is a good story for a quadruped, but more often than not, a complication will arise where four legs are not better than 2. The only thing I can think of that would help would be to make sure someone in your party has a high enough Knowledge Engineering skill. That way a pulley system of some sort can be made...
Hey Everyone! I'm looking for community input on my first Homebrew Race. I started the idea because a friend of mine wanted to be a centaur in a campaign. Knowing large creatures/PCs are hard to deal with, I opted to make a new race that was more convenient and fleshed out than the normal centaur one. All constructive criticism encouraged! Also, if you have ideas in regards to Alternate Racial Traits and Favored Class Bonuses I'd love to hear them! All can be found on this Google Docs link: I look forward to your thoughts! Thanks,
If the animal is just a sidekick, why not use the Leadership feat to pick one up as a cohort? Cohorts are separate from your animal companion correct? I could pay for Awaken and then take the Leadership feat! Thus having an extra animal buddy, but without sacrificing druid lvls. Genius!
They should all show up individually on d20pfsrd and the Archives of Nethys. I don't know a good way to search for them as a category on either site. Now don't I feel silly! Look at them, right there on the main Feat page! I appreciate the info too, I may not go full 50/50. Honestly, the animals are more for flavor than anything ;) Most of my concentration was going into combining the 2 classes viably. Both my other animals can serve me well just based on their tricks I'll give them. Even though they're mainly there to make my parody more accurate, I hate missing a chance to make them stronger! Hopefully with 'Boon Companion' My little monkey will help me for longer.
Acrobatic, Agile Maneuvers, Armor Proficiency (light, medium, and heavy), Athletic, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Overrun, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Run, Skill Focus, Spring Attack, Stealthy, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus. Those are the feats that are listed in the animal companion section, correct? I had found those, sorry for not mentioning that in the original post. The ones that I quoted are a part of some larger list, that I am having difficulty finding. And thanks for the suggestions! 'Boon Companion' is a definite must. I might even try and convince my GM to use the 3rd party feat 'Boon Pack' which affects more than one companion and stacks with Boon! So more details about my character creation method. I like to theme my characters after something; this druid/monk is an Ace Ventura parody. Which is why I went with the Baboon. For flavor it's going to be a big Capuchin. and since I'm not just dipping into monk, but going closer to 50/50. Focusing on Wild Shape, natural and bonus AC, Flurry, and my skills spread out in knowledge section. That's why my animal buddies are supposed to help me in the other factors. I don't think I realized the part where 3 int let's you pick any feat, that will defiantly help me out. I'd still like to see if I can find out where these other mystery 'Animal Feats' are though, just so I don't over look anything ;)
Hey Everyone! I have been researching a lvl 11 Druid(6)/Monk(5) Character for a campaign I'm jumping into, and I have learned a lot. Especially from these forums! I've got a pretty good idea how the character is going to turn out, however I'm having some issues with optimizing my companions. My Druid is an archetype 'Pack Lord' and my goal is for my companions to be skill oriented rather than fighting (though they may need to help from time to time). For example, I have lvled my Baboon companion to 4 so that he can get disable devices with the ability increase to his intelligence. My small cat would do recon/hunting (stealth) And my Raven would do aerial scouting/bombarding **My real issue is finding Feats for them. There is a segment in the animal companion section that reads: There are feats just for animals. Here are a few: Jumper, Lithe Attacker, Master of Your Kind, Narrow Frame, Stable, Gallop, Sure Footed, Valiant Steed When it says "here are a few" that makes me feel that there are more to find. But when I look for them I can't find them. Pluse (using d20pfsrd.com) when I look at the category chain it tells me they are in general feats, but I can't find them there either. Is there a comprehensive list of feats specifically for companions out there? Also, even though I have an idea about my companions I am open to suggestions of optimizing them if anyone have some suggestions!!!
That last thing you said really put's it into perspective! Thanks!
Hey Everyone! I have been reassuring a lvl 11 Druid/Monk Character for a campaign I'm jumping into, and I have learned a lot. Especially from these forums! However, there is one conundrum I can't seem to solve. If I have the lvl 8th version of 'Wild Shape' (Beast Shape III) and I have the feat 'Powerful Shape' Does that mean I get a higher size bonus for strength and Natural Armor? If so I can't find any Gargantuan stats of that caliber. The Feat is very specific, but CMB and CMD both factor in strength, and I figured if I was 1 tier higher in size, wouldn't my bonuses be increase as well? Is this already a thing I'm not aware of, or should I talk to my GM about a little home brewing?
Wow, seems like a huge over-site on my part. Thanks guys!
When an ability doesn't specify where to recharge from (Harsk or Merisiel), does that mean you can recharge from anywhere? Such as the discard pile? |