Add pages and do it right? Unlike your comparison where you literally can't add time, you can add pages. It's more like deciding you want to save $5 for popcorn so you don't lend your friend a buck to get in the movie too. The only reason not to add pages of completed content is profitability, and by all means I want them successful, but not by selling unfinished products.
I've outlined several reasons adding pages is problematic. You are right that it isn't impossible, but adding a single page to a physical product can't really be done. And even if the page count was bumped up by 16 or 32, that doesn't necessarily let you get space where you need it, due to the limitations of layout, completely outside of the production costs of making a book that is physically bigger.
You haven't really given any reasons why it can't be done right, only a few reasons why it might not have been. It is in fact entirely possible, plausible and reasonable to release a finished and quality product. You can even add pages prior to print and release. Possibly even work on the layout so these extra paragraphs fit the format. Or at the very least remove references to abilities you cut. It reduces profit, but so does losing customers from poor quality products.
And it's not like GenCon is a surprise. They've published enough books to properly account for the timelines needed barring catastrophe. Just excuses for shoddy work.
But I'm talking about doing it right, not fixing it after. Expecting anything less is counter productive to yourself as a consumer.
The idea of taking away abilities from archetypes to save print space is really making me wince.
What alternative would you propose, exactly? The book has a certain number of pages in it, each of a certain size. All the wishing and/or wincing in the world doesn't let you print beyond the size of the page.
It makes me wince when there aren't enough hours in the day to do everything I need to do too, but that won't make the day 30 hours long, either.
Add pages and do it right? Unlike your comparison where you literally can't add time, you can add pages. It's more like deciding you want to save $5 for popcorn so you don't lend your friend a buck to get in the movie too. The only reason not to add pages of completed content is profitability, and by all means I want them successful, but not by selling unfinished products.
My knee jerk reaction is I'm gonna love me some bloodrager.
Suppose you're an agricultural society stepped in magical tradition and arcane experimentation. What sorts of plants and crops do you think such a society would have produced over the years to improve the quality of life and food supply?
Let's get some obvious ones out of the way and assume crop yield, pest repellent, drought survival and things that modern irrigation and pesticides cure aren't magicish enough.
We'll it says only the skill you choose counts for caster levels. It seems to me to be clearly saying you pick a single skill, so I couldn't take this with craft (weapons) chosen and make a magic necklace.
So the question is which craft (something) would give the most options with craft wondrous item? Clothing or jewelry seem like safe picks.
So craft wondrous items seems like the most bang for your buck. But master craftsman only let's you use one craft skill to use as a caster level for making magic items.
So, if you wanted to maximize general utility and not focus just on specific class gear, what would be the best craft skill to make the widest array of awesome?
Would this allow magic items with marvelous pigments?
@XMorsX
I'm counting on touch attacks being able to pretty easily compensate for the lack of attack bonus. I'm not dumping dex entirely, but it's only a 14. The ammo is a definite yes and was on my list.
@Kazaan
I appreciate the options on changes but I'm really married to the idea of an Arshean getting Cha to AC twice (oracle and grace). And eventually a third time with the Boon from Arshea via Celestial Obedience. Also the GM has already given the okay to magic tattooes and a custom item of Neraid's Grace always on at some point later.
I should be looking at around 31 AC naked, with the headband of charisma and custom neraid's grace as tattooes.
@Everyone
And an additional question if you don't mind. Can you take both Mysterious Stranger AND Pistolero? I'm seeing that would give you Dex to damage with pistols AND Cha to damage x/day with grit.
I wanted gunslinger which I still haven't gotten to play, but I also want to focus on a charisma build. So despite the limitations, Mysterious Stranger will be fun for me. But I've also decided that while in the worship of Arshea, wearing less is better and a dip into oracle so I can pump charisma and lower dex is cool. I also have UMD through traits + a wand of Neraid's Grace in the planning.
Is there an archetype for oracle that enhances the combo with mysterious stranger or makes good sense for a 1 level dip?
What two first level oracle spells do you think are truly invaluable to a character that is primarily a gunslinger?
What else would stack with Charisma for awesome combat incentives?
I'm a human Mysterious Stranger 2/Oracle 1 in a survival horror campaign with a heavy focus on homebrew zombies. The rest of the party is a Druid, Wizard and Alchemist. They are not optimized and will not marginalize my contributions despite the obvious tier gap.
Deeds help but it is still pretty similar to an archer. You full attack shoot, but with touch attacks and short range which may not be an issue depending on the game. Some give you a little crowd control but I haven't played high enough to get those.
Musket master seems to be the favored archetype followed by pistolero. Musket master for free full iterative attacks and pistolero for lots of extra d6s.
Several builds out there for pure shooty death, haven't seen any that do much else.
I would say since the familiar touch spell entry says "just as the master would" I would vote break. To me it looks like the intent is for the familiar to be an extension of the wizard and count as the wizard for this purpose.
Best case scenario you just put your familiar into melee? An even worse place for little scorpions or birds than wizards.
Yeah, pole arm + spiked armor. To that end all you really need is power attack so paladin should give you plenty of feats to play with. Fighter would have an easier time getting whirlwind attack which might be fun if you'll face a lot of large groups of weak critters.
Maybe some monk levels so you can unarmed attack with kicks, but some may argue that logic as unfair two-weapon fighting or something.
I think the touch attack part is being overlooked a little. A giant can out damage it In a single hit with power attack, if it hits. The stone giant for example also has +16 to hit but doesn't target touch ac. Power attack +14 for avg 27 or avg 27 damage with +16 touch. So just based on damage it may be a bit high.
A fireball doesn't require any attack roll. A 9th level caster (which is also CR 8) would do 9d6 damage, or an average of 31.5 damage, roughly 16 on a successful save. To the whole party. He could also get 2 rays from Scorching Ray, for a total of 8d6 (28 damage average), or 48 damage total if maximized. His Maximized Shocking Grasp does 30 damage.
A CR 8 warrior type could have a strength of 24 (18 base, +2 racial bonus, +2 from level ups, +2 from a magic item) for a modifier of +7. Wielding a greatsword, thats 2d6+10 damage per attack, and he gets 2 of those for an average of 34 damage. Not a touch attack, but deals more damage then the Animate Dream per round (if both attacks hit).
And the stone giant also gets two attacks. Each does 21 damage on average (42 total with both) without power attack. With Power Attack, the damage increases to 2d8+21 (30 damage on average), or 60 damage total if both attacks hit. (Remember, Power Attacking with a two-handed weapon gives 3 damage per -1 attack, not +2 damage). Even if only 1 of his attacks hits, he is dealing more damage then the Animate Dream. IF both hit, he deals double the damage as the Animate Dream.
It seems the monsters damage is withing reason when compared to some other creatures of its CR.
I think the touch attack is still not being weighted properly in this assessment. That's a pretty big deal. I was also assuming we were comparing to cr8 beastiary critters and not pc class builds which there's no denying can outclass it. Compared to a stock cr8 I think it looks high for a touch attack, that's the focus. Or maybe I'm reading the title too literally, either way good damage.
So the damage is at the very least comparable. But with a touch ac which seems like fail-on-one most of the time. The decent dc wisdom save is also not something I took into account on the damage only assessment.
Also I give the dream tactical superiority with flight and fly by attack. It can kill stone giants all day long cause they can't hit it incorporeal. At the very least use with caution if the party isn't prepared for incorporeal, decent straight damage, and a wisdom drain poison-like effect that takes three consecutive saves while decreasing that same save with each failure.
I think the touch attack part is being overlooked a little. A giant can out damage it In a single hit with power attack, if it hits. The stone giant for example also has +16 to hit but doesn't target touch ac. Power attack +14 for avg 27 or avg 27 damage with +16 touch. So just based on damage it may be a bit high.
Well it looks like the normal familiar doesn't list a maximum number of spells known. So I guess maybe just as loot? Or to teach your spells to a new familiar after your old one dies. Like a backup spell book.
The defeat illusion part of perception seems out of line. You weaken an already limited school of magic with a single already powerful skill. At the very least I think it should scale with caster level.
I'm not sure how else to ask it but let me try. Is it a trap?
With the existing options, I can make a ring of protection equivalent by paying double as per the magic item creation rules. That item is now slot-less and not defined in form or restricted by location. With this feat, I pay double, am limited to two ring equivalents in the ring slot, and it must also be a tattoo.
All of this is assuming a GM is okay with custom magic items and this feat. Other than GM fiat okaying this feat but not custom magic item rules, I don't see an apparent benefit.
I have a multi-part question here because as I understand the feat right now, it's awesome given the income to make it work for you. I've searched the forums but haven't found answers that I think are direct enough to quell my concerns. So let's get started!
First, it says you can inscribe a tattoo into a slot, but without using that slot. Does this mean that, for example, a character could have a cloak of displacement tattooed under a cloak of resistance and gain the benefits of both? Making sure just because that sounds "too good to be true" kinds of useful.
Second, pricing. I'm reading this as Wondrous Items are priced normally because it says "Magical tattoos follow the rules for magic item creation as though they were wondrous items, except that they can use the Craft (calligraphy, paintings, tattoos) skill." The only exception listed is the skill used, not pricing. Increasing the price to slot-less seems to be more focused on making sure you don't try to slot tattoos into anything but the locations already designated in the feat text.
I'm changing the oil so the engine doesn't blow up.
Why will it blow up?
Because it needs oil!
Why does it need oil?
So it won't blow up!
Knowledge -
If we don't put oil in the engine the pistons will generate too much heat from friction that would lead to catastrophic system failure.
Where do we put the oil in?
I'm not sure, let's see if its labeled.
An engineer is not clueless. He is going to know why his engine needs oil and what will happen to his engine if it doesn’t get it.
What he won’t know is why the engine works the way it does. Why exactly the engine is able to go 150 mph, how are the brakes constructed to allow him to stop ‘x’ distance from the station.
An engineer can run the engine (and that includes rudimentary knowledge on how it works), but he won’t be able to design and build one.
Well yeah, that's what I just said. And also no, he may not know that much about it, profession engineering does not equal educated engineer. Knowing how does not equal knowing why. He could be shown how to do it and not know why it needs done. Professions could be a situation where tribal knowledge may be all they have. Profession cause they know how, knowledge if they know why and can innovate.
Profession -
I'm changing the oil so the engine doesn't blow up.
Why will it blow up?
Because it needs oil!
Why does it need oil?
So it won't blow up!
Knowledge -
If we don't put oil in the engine the pistons will generate too much heat from friction that would lead to catastrophic system failure.
Where do we put the oil in?
I'm not sure, let's see if its labeled.
Just one double-barreled pistol here. And not even the pistol archetype. I don't need to explode faces to keep up with the group, but I do kind of need to have something to justify the cost of ammo (such as targeting touch AC).
Yep, that's where I'm at right now Elamdri. Maybe you can round up the gang and have them come post on my behalf? They wouldn't take me seriously, I don't even have an avatar image! And I'm pretty sure I'm gunslinger post #274,321.
Thank you all, and I didn't mean to imply bookrat wasn't helpful. Simply that wasn't the kind of clarity I was looking for. Thank you all for your time and I appreciate anyone else weighing in, if for no other reason to make sure I have a decent "crowd-sourced" response. My GM isn't unreasonable, just incorrect. Part of the problem is that I could clearly see WHY he followed that logic just as Salindurthas pointed out. So I need me some backup.
Thank you bookrat, I do appreciate that. If anyone else could back this up I would appreciate it. Or if there was ever some sort of FAQ clarification that someone knows about? I know the right answer, I just don't know how to qualify that answer without it devolving into semantics arguments. Maybe if I at least have enough people agreeing that will be proof enough.
I appreciate your response but that isn't very helpful. It does slightly further prove that it doesn't resolve against normal AC instead of touch AC in those situations. Since if it isn't a touch attack in the first place who cares if it isn't a touch attack anymore? But maybe something a bit less ambiguous?
So we're more than two month's into a game and my GM reads this..
"Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full range increment. Unlike other projectile weapons, early firearms have a maximum range of five range increments."
And decides that firearms when used with "feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim" are no longer touch attacks. This is not a case of GM fiat, this is what he says the by the book rule is. I know from reading about gunslingers extensively that this isn't the case, and this is the first time I've heard someone make this argument.
So can you help me prove that firearms don't lose touch attack status just for having a feat applied to the attack? Help me show it really means "but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of qualifying for feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim."
The monk thing is good, I bet he'd like that. If monk can be worked in but still use real weapons instead of always unarmed. Unfortunately there is a distinct lack of hay on the ship so far so we may need a backup method of using stealth.
Not dead, but going into npc land for some bad decisions. He was a rogue so trying to avoid that directly, and maybe actually get something closer to a stealth assassin/infiltrator.
Thank you both for the help. A couple of replies to see if I can get some more gear advice. I'm starting to get the impression there isn't much for them outside of a few weapon enchants, that pistol of infinite sky and standard stat boosting gear. No hidden gems?
First, the importance of not losing weapon proficiency isn't so much the sub-par rifle attacks I could make, it's the combination of a cannon and deeds. Like in my specific example, dead shot + a 6d6 cannon can do a heck of a lot to help us take an enemy ship out. We're 7 sessions in and have had only one land combat, cannons are a thing that really need to stay. I agree in general it is a moot point, but in my specific case it is game changing.
Second, yes, exactly I mean using the pistol as a 1-hand piercing weapon, which it is by RAW. It doesn't seem intended, but there isn't much for gunslinger in the way of prestige. We have a witch and a sorcerer, so there will probably be loads of crowd control so ways to get synergy with that are great. Otherwise we have a sword and shield fighter, and a rogue that might have just died.
Last, here is the race. It was built prior to the decision for gunslinger or duelist, just happy circumstance that it's a good fit.
Spoiler:
Castanics appear unfortunately infernal, with pastel skin colors in the red and blue spectrum ranging from light pink to dark purple. Their eyes and hair are metallic hues with silver being the most common. They possess a long, prehensile tail that often serves as well as a third hand outside of heavy lifting. They also have a set of curved, generally forward facing horns that almost form a crown but are good for little other than decoration. It is not uncommon for a Castanic to wear rings on their tail or wear jewelry on their horns or even have gems embedded if they have the means.
Beyond the definitions, the Castanic are beautiful. There is no such thing as an overweight or unattractive Castanic, and each approaches or surpasses the majority of humanoid races’ measures of beauty. This natural grace and supernatural beauty comes in part from their progenitor and in part from their minor connection to the plane of Elysium. Their demonic appearance, however, still leaves them suffering from mistrust when first introduced, but after long exposure they have a calming effect on a group.
Almost as overcompensation for their infernal appearance, the Castanics are an affable race that is genuinely kind and highly skilled at negotiation, diplomacy and seduction. Their strong tie to the Goddess’ blood as well as the plane of Elysium also allows them to naturally channel positive energy though a kiss, a mockery to the succubus they resemble. Their natural charm and collective good nature makes them valuable and easy allies once past the deceptive appearance.
The Castanic are also very fast. All of their movements are fluid, precise and quick. They favor ranged combat since they are not physically strong, but when forced into melee they rely on their graceful movements over strength to connect with their blows. However their contradictory nature drives many to seek martial combat just to overcome their inherent weakness. And if all else fails, few races can outrun a Castanic
All castanics are Outsiders with the native subtype. They have the following racial traits.
(Advanced, 15 points)
-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma: Castanics are graceful, beautiful and enchanting but not physically strong.
Native Outsider: Castanics are outsiders with the native subtype that have connections to the plane of Elysium.
Medium: Castanics are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Base Speed: Castanics have a base speed of 40 feet. (Fast trait)
Darkvision (Ex): Castanics can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Low-Light Vision (Ex): Castanics can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Elysium Kiss (Sp): Castanics gain cure light wounds as a spell-like ability 1/day. The caster level is equal to the Castanic’s level.
Quick Reflexes (Ex): Castanics begin with Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
Nimble Moves (Ex): Castanics begin with Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.
Prehensile Tail (Ex): Castanics have a long, flexible tail that can be used to carry objects. They cannot wield weapons with their tails, but they can retrieve small, stowed objects carried on their persons as a swift action.
Silver Tongued: Castanics gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks. In addition, when they use Diplomacy to shift a creature’s attitude, they can do so up to three steps up rather than just two.
No archetype taken, just base gunslinger. Losing proficiency in the other firearms is bad. We're pirates so being able to use deeds (dead shot) on cannons will be a big deal. My thoughts on build will be going into duelist with gm approval of the gun being a qualifying weapon. Also pretty much any paizo source, online OGL stuff for sure is allowed. Thanks for the pistol of infinite sky, I'd like to rip that onto a double-barreled pistol though.
Other than trying to enter duelist I'm planning on a generic point blank, rapid reload, rapid shot, deadly aim build. Only the one double pistol though because the group isn't optimized enough for much damage than that before people would start to feel more than outclassed.
Also, are there any ways to get extra skill points outside of increased intelligence or cross-classing?
What would your perfect level 20 duelist/gunslinger pirate have? I can post my current build if people want but level 2 custom race means I don't have much outside of rapid reload.
Other items of note:
Vigor/wounds being used
Piecemeal armor used
Armor as DR used
Can you recommend good gear for a gunslinger? Focused on double pistol but not exclusively. Only level 2 at the moment but this is planning for full end game gear, not just a specific WBL. Especially anything for more grit, weapon enchants other than distance and otherwise just general advice please. I read the stickied gunslinger guide and saw no equipment advice.
There are no magic marts, a lot of this will be quest rewards if that matters.
