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Okay, I our group has still never had a gunslinger. We are starting a new campaign soon (ROTRL: No spoilers please). I usually GM, but I am getting a chance to play for once. Both the new GM and I would really like to see how the Gunslinger works in actual play with our group.
Consequently, I agreed to play one. Now I am a little concerned that I'll be bored to tears.
Reason: From past experience I know I don't like playing archers, because you do the same thing every round: full attack with as many arrows as you can. This isn't a problem for full-casters, of course, and I don't have an issue with melee because being up close and threatened keeps things interest enough tactically.
So, people who have played Gunslingers, is it just like playing an archer or does the Grit and Deeds keep it interesting?
Also, I haven't made the character yet, so input on archetypes that might be more fun wouldn't be amiss.
I havent played a gunslinger yet, but maybe one of the "gunslinger" archetypes of the other classes could ease you in? Off the top of my head, I know there's the spellslinger (wizard with a gun) and the trophy hunter (ranger with a gun). It could let you still keep traditional utility with a chance to test out guns/grit.
My group's gunslinger has fun with it. He loves shooting things in the face though, doesn't matter if its with a bow, crossbow, gun, whatever, which his history of characters proves. He seems to have a lot of fun with the Grit & Deeds class features too.
Gunslingers are a mixed bag. You can play them like an archer if you go a musket build. It is the strongest and safest build, IMO, but if you don't want to go that route, there are other options.
If you want to be more of a front line gunslinger, you could wield pistols, which leads to a much tighter positional character. You can be the very agile gunslinger with dodge, mobility, and the deft shooter's deed and be the gunslinger that shoots in the front lines, giving flanking bonuses to your allies.
I had a Sword/Pistol Build at one time that was fun. Might I suggest that or maybe a switch gunner. That is a Gunslinger who uses a Pistol for most attacks but can switch to a Musket for longer ranged opening shots or a Blunderbuss for those occasional tight corridor shots.
With the Sword and Pistol you can go with the Dagger Pistol and do a TWF 'Slinger and use Opening Volley. When you get the Cash you might invest in a Pistol of the Infinity Sky and use that.
Using the Switch Gunner you will be focusing on ranged instead of the assault type and will probably still want to get the PotIS to save on Ammo.
Usually I go with the Pistolero for the S&P Build and Base Gunslinger for the Switch Gunner.
EDIT: Also my group seems to agree that the Blunderbuss can be just as effective early game as a Burning Hands Spell for clearing Mooks.
The class is as fun as you make it. Well it is a full BAB class with a generous allotment of weapon prof, so there is no reason to make it solely a ranged combatant. High dex, acceptable wisdom, and the rest is up to player taste. Get it a sword with the agile property and you will be better at melee than most classes in the game. Get some weapon cords and a pistol and you will be dancing into and out of melee with ease as you make attacks all the while.
It of course takes a while to get the build that does all that together, as it requires a hefty dose of feats and expensive equipment.
Are gunslingers fun? Depends, how fun is full attacking to you? Same as every other martial. Deeds make it moderately better, but not much.
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I actually just had a Gunslinger/ Inquisitor die. (don't play with decks kids). The damage potential of the GS around level 7-8 is one of the highest in the martial game. That plus a strong Inquisitor levels makes him not only useful in combat, but also useful in RP areas and knowledge finding. That plus the judgments are so much fun to use along side of a revolver firing at touch.
as an ex-gunslinger I would rate them a 8/10.
Strengths:Almost always hitting along with doing damage
-Can easily tear through a large group of armored opponents
-Fun to play a wild west styled character
Weaknesses- DR is not your friend
-kinda limited in skill checking and such
-weak until level 5-7
Your GM will need to adapt the AP to the gunslinger, as most of teh bad guys end up having touch ACs of tissue paper.
. It not AP fault but the poor Design of the class ability to hit touch AC and has full BaB. This abilty destroy game balence and broken . Touch AC at best get to 25 which means this guy will almost allways hit . The only way keep them check it make count every shot he has and every gp like hawk. Then you make it a game of book keeping not of high fansty Hero.
Your GM will need to adapt the AP to the gunslinger, as most of teh bad guys end up having touch ACs of tissue paper.. It not AP fault but the poor Design of the class ability to hit touch AC and has full BaB. This abilty destroy game balence and broken . Touch AC at best get to 25 which means this guy will almost allways hit . The only way keep them check it make count every shot he has and every gp like hawk. Then you make it a game of book keeping not of high fansty Hero.
Its not broken. Its just damage and its really easy to stop. Let the one trick pony have his trick when its Ok, have the BBEG be prepared enough that the trick isn't 100 percent effective.
Gunslinger is best when used with something akin to the Class Defense and Armour as DR systems. (Class Defense is an Optional System in 3.5.)
I personally modify the Class Defense system to be equal to 1/2 the person's B.A.B.
And it is not poor design. It also doesn't help that most people don't focus on larger battlegrounds. A Pistol and Musket are weak once they get outside of the first range increment. That is also something people forget it the fact that they only hit touch in that range increment.
By the time you could get an Advanced Rifle your opponents will have them as well so the point is moot.
Also please work on grammar. I had to read through 5 times to understand what you were saying...
One of my players was a grippli gunslinger and had an absolute blast. There was so many roleplaying opportunities for him it was ridiculous. As for combat though, yeah, I would say it's pretty similar to an archer.
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Gunslinger is best when used with something akin to the Class Defense and Armour as DR systems. (Class Defense is an Optional System in 3.5.)
I personally modify the Class Defense system to be equal to 1/2 the person's B.A.B.
And it is not poor design. It also doesn't help that most people don't focus on larger battlegrounds. A Pistol and Musket are weak once they get outside of the first range increment. That is also something people forget it the fact that they only hit touch in that range increment.
By the time you could get an Advanced Rifle your opponents will have them as well so the point is moot.
Also please work on grammar. I had to read through 5 times to understand what you were saying...
I thought the optional rules is armor ac is 1/2ed and u get that much dr with the lesser amount as dr (full plate's 9ac = 5ac & 4dr). Also every 5th nat armor = 1dr (x creature has 10 nat armor = 8 nat armor & 2dr). Also the dr is dr/- that stacks with like dr.
The defense bonus appeared in 3.5's Unearthed Arcana, and there was a big chart to calculate it, based on bab and proficiencies I think. I did the same thing as AF, simply using 1/2 bab. At least for the single campaign I used it in. It eventually got too burdensome recalculating all of the monster's ACs.
If you like the excitement of melee, you could try the Gulch Gunner archetype for Ratfolk in the Advanced Race Guide. They get a few nice abilities that only work if you shoot adjacent foes.
I personally dont like the gun rules paizo has instituted. I think the touch ac/misfire/reload issues are stupid, and needlessly complicate the way the weapons are balanced or not balanced as the case may be.
That said the gunslinger is probably not going to be 'boring'. Heck just the whole misfire chance thing means you wont be doing the same thing every round. And there is going to be more risk, when you realize you need to take that shot even though you havent cleared the last misfire.
The deeds also add in a little variety, and the fact that the gunslinger actually has some skills helps as well.
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Okay, I our group has still never had a gunslinger. We are starting a new campaign soon (ROTRL: No spoilers please). I usually GM, but I am getting a chance to play for once. Both the new GM and I would really like to see how the Gunslinger works in actual play with our group.
Consequently, I agreed to play one. Now I am a little concerned that I'll be bored to tears.
Reason: From past experience I know I don't like playing archers, because you do the same thing every round: full attack with as many arrows as you can. This isn't a problem for full-casters, of course, and I don't have an issue with melee because being up close and threatened keeps things interest enough tactically.
So, people who have played Gunslingers, is it just like playing an archer or does the Grit and Deeds keep it interesting?
Also, I haven't made the character yet, so input on archetypes that might be more fun wouldn't be amiss.
A fun class is one like the Monk, with all of his seriously weird odd-end abilities. Chances are, any ranged character will be boring as it's typically "twang twang" or "pop pop" and nothing else. This doesn't mean you should do nothing else than pump out damage. After level 7 Gunslingers pack some serious firepower... so pumping out that damage all the time isn't a necessity.
You can make ANY class fun, as long as you put your imagination to it and really give your character, character. Also, a low CHA character is always fun to portray. I tend to make low CHA a socially awkward, silly, or retarded type. Aside from that, you could specialize in seriously awkward/funny/weird combat tactics too. IMHO it really depends on what kind of character you're trying to portray.
It is what you make it.
I'm not sure why so many people put emphasis on "fun" being only related to how you perform in combat. There is a lot more to Pathfinder than that. You can be the most boring class in the world, but if you have a good GM they can make your games extremely entertaining every time. Same goes for a good player who really gets immersed into the game world. Having fun while playing Pathfinder doesn't strictly need to be linked to combat.
edit: Of course if combat is all you care about, then by all means focus on class abilities and stuff so you can have a good time by your standards.
@Psion-Psycho: Pathfinder Armour as DR is different and superior to 3.5's which is what you are referencing as far as I can tell.
Pathfinder's system combined with my Defense Bonus would mean a Level 20 Fighter in Full Plate would have a Defense Bonus of 10 and 9 DR/Armour and 5 DR/- which means they would have a total of 14 DR. Note DR from Armour is modified by Enchantment and a few other things.
@Ciaran Barnes: Most Monsters wouldn't have the Defense Bonus...
The thing is the gunslinger doesn't have to stand in one place and shoot every round. They can easily be switch hitters or support. Mine is lvl 10 now and for alot of the game i shot or meleed as necessary. Now that we are higher level i use the called shot alot, will likely get signature deed with it. Just saying nothing forces the class to dual wield double barreled pistols. Thats the player.
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I liked Inquisitor 3/Monk 2/Gunslinger 15.
Pick the Flowing Monk archetype for interrupts, go down the snapshot line to threaten out to 10'. Inquisitor gives you great initiative and some utility spells as well as a Domain, all the Monk benefits, and you can stand with the range and support as a very reliable defender and enforcer. Musketeer improves your first range increment and eventually eliminates the misfire chances. In the end it's not the most DPR but it is robust, and has options every turn.
Do NOT play a gunslinger in RotRL, i repeat do NOT play a gunslinger in RotRL, this is not a drill.
I have run RotRL (first half original, second half anniversary) and unless your DM is prepared to seriously re-do encounters then you are going to seriously wreck and destroy the game at 3rd+ books.
Do NOT play a gunslinger in RotRL, i repeat do NOT play a gunslinger in RotRL, this is not a drill.
I have run RotRL (first half original, second half anniversary) and unless your DM is prepared to seriously re-do encounters then you are going to seriously wreck and destroy the game at 3rd+ books.
Isn't that true with any tricked out optimized characters? I mean gunslingers aren't even close to some other core classes in terms of campaign wrecking ability. A by the book wizard is more likely to destroy the game than a guy who just does damage easily at short range.
notabot is right... I had a Barbarian wreck the first book without the other players doing much. The Gunslinger actually was worse off as they had a hard time getting enough cash to actually pay to use the gun.
If you think it is boring in combat, try building a mysterious stranger pistolero who is human with the Sczarni ethnicity. Be a charming mobster that deals with being the party face.
Is it bad that I think the Bushwacker Archetype would be perfect there? I mean sneak attack them when they think you are their friend.
Isn't that true with any tricked out optimized characters? I mean gunslingers aren't even close to some other core classes in terms of campaign wrecking ability. A by the book wizard is more likely to destroy the game than a guy who just does damage easily at short range.Do NOT play a gunslinger in RotRL, i repeat do NOT play a gunslinger in RotRL, this is not a drill.
I have run RotRL (first half original, second half anniversary) and unless your DM is prepared to seriously re-do encounters then you are going to seriously wreck and destroy the game at 3rd+ books.
When (at book 3+) the touch AC of almost anyone doesn't go above 15 then the gunslinger is going to be a problem.
I had a wizard player when i run RotRL, and yes she was really powerful but it didn't force me to re-write all of the opposition, just to bring my A game (and maybe change the spells prepared a little). A gunslinger would force to either replace nearly everything or just have everyone and anyone carrying dust of emulation and scrolls of fickle winds.
Easiest method: Tell them wet powder won't work for an hour then add in Water Traps or Water Spells.
Isn't that true with any tricked out optimized characters? I mean gunslingers aren't even close to some other core classes in terms of campaign wrecking ability. A by the book wizard is more likely to destroy the game than a guy who just does damage easily at short range.Do NOT play a gunslinger in RotRL, i repeat do NOT play a gunslinger in RotRL, this is not a drill.
I have run RotRL (first half original, second half anniversary) and unless your DM is prepared to seriously re-do encounters then you are going to seriously wreck and destroy the game at 3rd+ books.
When (at book 3+) the touch AC of almost anyone doesn't go above 15 then the gunslinger is going to be a problem.
I had a wizard player when i run RotRL, and yes she was really powerful but it didn't force me to re-write all of the opposition, just to bring my A game (and maybe change the spells prepared a little). A gunslinger would force to either replace nearly everything or just have everyone and anyone carrying dust of emulation and scrolls of fickle winds.
The touch AC is at closest range only. Also your wizard could have been using powerful save or die spells with boosted DCs and spell pen killing everything with one spell 75+ percent of the time. I'm thinking you are over thinking the power of damage and under-thinking the power of magic. That or you wizards have been taking it easy on you. Heck a blaster character built well can do gunslinger type damage to an AoE. Gunslingers excel in single target damage, which while impressive, is hardly game shattering.
Well, my Gunslinger/Rogue is fun, but the DM let me use the Sniper Archetype and apply the abilities therein to my pistol, so I get to do a lot of run, hide, shoot type stuff, rather than shoot, reload, repeat.
The touch AC is at closest range only.
Don't forget Deadeye, which lets you spent Grit to boost the touch range. Very useful in attacking heavily armored creatures. Still doesn't hold a candle to high-level magic, but you can do this at 1st level.
It also drains Grit very fast as IIRC t is only a single shot being boosted.
I am playing in a Large Party Campaign that has I think 4 Gunslingers.
4 Gunslingers, a Fighter, a Archer Cleric, a Tactical Sorcerer, and a Rogue-ish Bard are hilarious together.
The touch AC is at closest range only. Also your wizard could have been using powerful save or die spells with boosted DCs and spell pen killing everything with one spell 75+ percent of the time. I'm thinking you are over thinking the power of damage and under-thinking the power of magic. That or you wizards have been taking it easy on you. Heck a blaster character built well can do gunslinger type damage to an AoE. Gunslingers excel in single target damage, which while impressive, is hardly game shattering.Isn't that true with any tricked out optimized characters? I mean gunslingers aren't even close to some other core classes in terms of campaign wrecking ability. A by the book wizard is more likely to destroy the game than a guy who just does damage easily at short range.Do NOT play a gunslinger in RotRL, i repeat do NOT play a gunslinger in RotRL, this is not a drill.
I have run RotRL (first half original, second half anniversary) and unless your DM is prepared to seriously re-do encounters then you are going to seriously wreck and destroy the game at 3rd+ books.
When (at book 3+) the touch AC of almost anyone doesn't go above 15 then the gunslinger is going to be a problem.
I had a wizard player when i run RotRL, and yes she was really powerful but it didn't force me to re-write all of the opposition, just to bring my A game (and maybe change the spells prepared a little). A gunslinger would force to either replace nearly everything or just have everyone and anyone carrying dust of emulation and scrolls of fickle winds.
Yes i agree that a dedicated blaster might be worse than a gunslinger. And no it wasn't easy dealing with a wizard (but it is fun) but a wizard can be dealt with, especially with other wizards, and this particular AP (RotRL) can deal with them (Kingmaker on the other hand can't). Please don't give me the first range increment ****, with a musket and deadeye deed (and signature deed at 11 level) he can hit touch AC at 80feet, and the misfire isn't a real issue at mid to high levels (deeds, realiable, lucky etc.).
Don't get me wrong, there are other class which can wreck this AP and the witch is one of them, at books 5 and 6 the wizard character was replaced by a witch and he nearly destroyed the AP with the SoS hexes because the majority of the defenses against spells don't work on hexes.I am not saying that gunslingers destroy any game, there might be ways to built campaigns that take the gunslinger into account but every Paizo APs and modules that i have read/run/played can't deal with a gunslinger.
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If you think it is boring in combat, try building a mysterious stranger pistolero who is human with the Sczarni ethnicity. Be a charming mobster that deals with being the party face.
The Mysterious Stranger part works but legality of a Mysterious Stranger/Pistolero is HIGHLY questionable and a lot of DMs won't allow it.
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Every Paizo AP that I have run couldn't deal with X class. Where X = whatever my players are playing at the moment. They destroy combats in 1-3 rounds, have ended module boss fights during the surprise round, and make all but the most brutally set up combats trivial. I still manage to accumulate dead characters at reasonable rate. In my Shattered Star Campaign I managed to kill everybody at least once, even after ignoring the hero points prevented deaths, and several players (particularly the witch) died multiple times. IIRC one died twice in the same combat (breath of life, why are you so good?).
Which is kind of the point of it all. My players are challenged, I didn't have to rewrite much (some nights I actually have everybody show, so I add a mook or two). Yes the combats are short and the PCs win, but the PCs are meant to win. Its just enough of a challenge without devolving into a meatgrinder (like my short Ravenloft campaign, I have 20+ dead character sheets from that one, 3 from one player in a single night).
Gunslingers are balanced, IMHO they are on the underpowered side. But since they do something that GMs and players are unused to, they get lots of cries of "cheese". Yet those same cheese crying grognards don't see that other classes have way more unbalancing abilities.
As for the musket + deadeye deed... Grit is a limited resource, and one shot at 80 feet is hardly game breaking. Oh Noes! A martial class can actually almost function at the only thing it can do!!!! NERF! NERF! NERF!
I am not crying for a nerf on the gunslinger, i am just saying that the APs that i have read/played/run aren't capable of dealing with a gunslinger. Yes they can be changed to deal with it but the reason i buy the APs is because i don't have the time to build a campaign.
In the games i have played or run i have witnessed 3 things above all else* that can destroy the game and suck the fun of it for me:
1)witches
2)dedicated archers
3)gunslingers
*that means i was so bothered that i houseruled them out in the games i run
Isn't that true with any tricked out optimized characters? I mean gunslingers aren't even close to some other core classes in terms of campaign wrecking ability. A by the book wizard is more likely to destroy the game than a guy who just does damage easily at short range.
We all know that Archers are some of the biggest DPS in the game. A gunslinger is an Archer with full BAB and vs Touch AC. This means that they will hit more and hence, do more damage than an Archer. They will RARELY miss, and will do major damage.
The Mysterious Stranger part works but legality of a Mysterious Stranger/Pistolero is HIGHLY questionable and a lot of DMs won't allow it.
I don't have the links handy, but there is a FAQ in the works that makes this combination ilegal.
Okay, I our group has still never had a gunslinger. We are starting a new campaign soon (ROTRL: No spoilers please). I usually GM, but I am getting a chance to play for once. Both the new GM and I would really like to see how the Gunslinger works in actual play with our group.
Consequently, I agreed to play one. Now I am a little concerned that I'll be bored to tears.
Reason: From past experience I know I don't like playing archers, because you do the same thing every round: full attack with as many arrows as you can. This isn't a problem for full-casters, of course, and I don't have an issue with melee because being up close and threatened keeps things interest enough tactically.
So, people who have played Gunslingers, is it just like playing an archer or does the Grit and Deeds keep it interesting?
Also, I haven't made the character yet, so input on archetypes that might be more fun wouldn't be amiss.
Gunslingers are indeed fun. So are tank drivers, astronauts, robots and superheroes... unfortunately, none of them have in place in our games. I want to play a sci-fi game, I play one... I want to play a wild western game, I play one... I'm here for epic fantasy and anything that's not just takes away from the experience.
My 2 cp.
So no basic guns in a game setting that takes place during a medieval/Renaissance style time period? Man I must have misread my history books. I could have sworn that gunpower was in use before the year 1000, and cannons where used in the hundred year war (the era of French full plate and English Longbows), and that muskets were used at the same time and even before many of the pole arms in pathfinder were even invented. Heck Constantinople fell to cannons, and that was the capitol of the Eastern Roman Empire. Yes Rome's rump state finally fell in the era of firearms.
Oh you want fantasy? I guess the PF default setting isn't the right campaign world for you then. That setting has space aliens, technomancers, cannons, and the wonders of indoor plumbing (the design of the sewers presented have many features that don't have purpose if its just a drain from the streets).
Oh, I guess forgotten realms is right out too, as is spelljammer. Do you just want to play greyhawk? Nothing strange ever happens there... Except for laser guns and aliens...
Ok, maybe D&D/PF isn't right for your epic fantasy game.