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Sczarni

No Cavalier? That is one of my favorite classes to play in 1E. It would have been the primary reason to pick up an Advanced Player Guide.

Sczarni

We are looking for 2 players to join our Serpent's Skull AP. We are are starting the campaign from the beginning. 15 pt buy.

When: Monday nights starting October 28th / 6PM - 9/9:30 (Central Time)
What: Pathfinder 1st Edition - Serpent's Skull AP
Where: Roll20 App

How to get in: Apply here!

Sczarni

Making this along the lines of the Evangelist makes sense to me.

Sczarni

I'm glad I saw this post before I did my own, because you said it better than I could. The caster vigilantes are incredibly weak, giving up far too much for what they get in relation to other caster classes.

Sczarni

FAQd because this seems like an error. The ACG is full of inconsistencies like this.

Sczarni

The build I'm working on is less unarmed damage & geared around the vivisectionist.

So far, to 16 levels I've got (the order does matter somewhat):
1. Vivisectionist Alchemist
2. MoMS & Kata Master Monk
3. MoMS & Kata Master Monk
4. Vivisectionist Alchemist
5. Vivisectionist Alchemist
6. Lore Warden Fighter
7. Lore Warden Fighter
8. Vivisectionist Alchemist
9. Huntmaster Cavalier
10-16. Vivisectionist Alchemist
Half-elf with Favored Classes Monk & Alchemist

Feats (so far, subject to change)
1. Fast Learner | Skill Focus: Alchemy (Racial Feat)
2. Kirin Style - Bonus MoMS Feat)
3. Nature Soul / Kirin Strike Bonus MoMS Feat
4. ---
5. Animal Ally - Dog
6. Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike (Fighter Bonus Feat)
7. Boon Companion (Dog) / Combat Expertise (Lore Warden) / Boar Style (Fighter Bonus Feat)
8. --
9. Huntsmaster (Birds) / Pack Attack (Tactician Feat)
10. --
11. Toxicological Timing
12. --
13. Improved Toxicological Timing
14. --
15. Friend to Animals (Thematic, might take it earlier)

Alchemist discoveries:
Vestigial Arm
Sticky Poison
Poison Conversion
Malignant Poison

Animal Companions & Effective Levels
Dog 12
Bird 5
Bird 3

Sczarni

Vivisectionist Alchemist + 2 Levels of Monk + 2 levels of Cavalier rather than rogue.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
SoonerTed wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
hmmm... what about the Monk's Robe? would that stack with that cavalier thingy?
Makes sense to me, for non-lethal damage only. Same way a Robe of Arcane Heritage works on those who have the Eldritch Heritage feat line.
That is freakin' sweet. I don't see how such a dude would ever draw his sword... backhanded slaps with his meaty hands will solve most conflicts! :)

Get something that has sneak attack, add in Sap Adept, Knockout Artist, & Sap Master.... :)

Sczarni

NikolaiJuno wrote:


That is what I was trying to say.

Reading comprehension fail on my part. Sorry!

Sczarni

NikolaiJuno wrote:

Brawler does not stack with Monk, or anything else that increases unarmed as a Monk because it has it's own progression chart and in no way references the Monk class.

Order of the Hammer and Sacred Fist count you as having Monk levels. For the purpose of unarmed damage they are Monk levels.
It's not the unarmed damage of a Monk of X level, it's Monk levels.
There is a difference.

You count as having monk levels equivalent to your cavalier level. So, that means if you have 2 cavalier levels, you have 2 monk levels. Multi-class into monk for 2 levels, and you have 2 monk levels + 2 monk levels = 4 Monk levels when dealing non-lethal damage.

Don't forget this is a Player Companion, which often notoriously leave off intended text that would indicate it working in the intended way.

Sczarni

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
hmmm... what about the Monk's Robe? would that stack with that cavalier thingy?

Makes sense to me, for non-lethal damage only. Same way a Robe of Arcane Heritage works on those who have the Eldritch Heritage feat line.

Sczarni

It is also important to note that this comes from a Player Companion (Harrowing Handbook). Often times these additional archetypes or orders miss key text due to editing issues.

Show me where you get actual levels for calculating an effect and it doesn't stack?

Sczarni

Comparing large weapon + large weapon and saying that doesn't make you able to wield a huge weapon is in no way comparable to saying "treat these levels in Cavalier as levels in Monk when determining unarmed damage".

The reason Unarmed Combat Mastery needs a specific stacking clause is because Ninja & Monk are two different classes.

Levels in the same class stack, no?

Sczarni

The cleric that gains bard levels doesn't actually have bard levels. Sermonic performance says nothign about having any number of bard levels, just "equivalent to".

What makes this different, in my mind, is it actually says "treated as having the monk levels" in regards to unarmed strike. But I've been wrong before.

Sczarni

Order of the Hammer states:
"At 2nd level, the cavalier does not provoke attacks of opportunity when she attacks foes while unarmed so long as she is dealing nonlethal damage. In addition, the cavalier's unarmed strikes deal more nonlethal damage than usual; she is treated as having a number of monk levels equal to her cavalier level for the purpose of determining how much nonlethal damage her unarmed strikes deal."

If a character has 2 levels in Cavalier/Order of the Hammer & Two levels of Monk, does that make him level 4 in Monk for unarmed damage, therefore giving his unarmed, nonlethal damage 1d8 ?

It makes sense that it would, but RAW doesn't always make sense.

Thanks!

Sczarni

I don't get the hostility for asking for a source, but OK. Thank you for the clarification.

As I said in the other thread, the rule doesn't make sense from a time slice perspective. The most a spellcaster with quickened spells could cast is 2, not 3+, the exact same they would be able to cast if you can't replace a standard with a swift.

Sczarni

It's silly to say that taking 2 swift actions instead of a standard and a swift would break game balance. The action economy in Pathfinder is based around the standard action. It's the most expensive combat action that lets you still take a move and a swift.

The example with Quickened Spells is not an issue because of the high cost of Quickening spells. For that to work, you have to be a high-level spellcaster. Giving up two level 7 slots (for 2 level-3 quickened spells) takes care of the balance issue right there. Why is it unreasonable that a high-level spellcaster will be able to do some amazing things?

Giving up your standard action to do a move or a swift is almost always less optimal than attacking or casting a spell. You give up an entire round of attacks/spellcasting to do something that is usually a minor effect.

The inquisitor balance example also doesn't break balance because reason that class's swift actions are swift is because they are assumed to proceed attacking or spellcasting. Giving up that standard action for 2 swifts harms you more than it helps you.

Every GM I've played with allows swift actions in place of a standard for these reasons.

Sczarni

Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
deusvult wrote:

Action classes in order of least restrictive to most restrictive:

Full Round, Standard, Move, Swift, Free, Immediate.

It makes little sense to say that an available action to the left of the action type normally required can't be expended in place of an action to the right is ignoring common sense and is embodying the worst stereotypes of the rules lawyer.

And yet you're wrong when it comes to Swift actions.

You get only one Swift per turn, that's it.

Source? I've never played in a game that wouldn't let me use a standard action to take a swift.

Sczarni

Reading the Core Rulebook, it says a Swift Action takes less time than a standard action but more time than a free action, hence the once per round vs (practically) unlimited free actions.

An immediate action takes as long as a swift action.

There is nothing in the rules preventing you from using your standard action to take a swift action. You could take 2 swift actions and move action instead of swift action.

Don't forget the rule about common sense. If a swift action takes less time than a standard action, you can take it in place of a standard.

Sczarni

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fretgod99 wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:

No. Infinite means "without end". What I wrote means "uncountably large, but still finite". A googleplex is, for example, uncountably large but finite - feel free to start counting to it (hint: you can't ever get there). You are factually incorrect.

Good luck in court tomorrow, presupposing you're pursuing the most morally correct course! (I don't know, as I have no details of the case! But I hope you are and, given that, that it works out well!)

No, if something is finite, it is by definition countable. That you would not be able to reach the number by counting within your lifetime does not mean something is not countable. ("Googolplex", by the way. Not a big deal, just thought you might like to know.) Of course, to be fair, that something is countable does not necessarily mean it is finite (integers are countable, yet infinite).

Infinite does in fact mean impossible to calculate (i.e., cannot be counted). So no, I am not incorrect. Regardless, that this wasn't the intended meaning of your statement doesn't mean that it isn't a possible meaning of your statement, which is ultimately my...

Not to be picky here, but the set of all integers is countable and infinite. The set of real numbers is uncountable and infinite. Infinite does not mean countable - they are two different things. Countable is only relevant when dealing with sets. Foundations of Math FTW!

Sczarni

Here is your Recon Sniper build to level 16

4 Slayer (Stygian)
3 Rogue (Poisoner & Underground Chemist)
1 Divination Wizard (optional - shadowcaster)
8 Arcane Trickster

Your key stats are DEX, INT, and CHA, CHA needs to be 15 before Improved Eldritch Heritage can be selected.

A good racial choice here is Vashkanya, with bonuses to dexterity and charisma, and negatives to wisdom (your dump stat anyway). You also get free poison.

Underground Chemist + Quick Draw feat lets you draw poison and any alchemical item as a free action.

Poisoner lets you take any poison and convert it to any type you want. Take your own poison or one you craft and make it inhaled, use mage hand to deliver it up to 30 feet (Ranged Legerdemain)

Feats and class abilities:
1. Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Heavy Repeating Crossbow
2. Slayer Talent - Ranger Style Feat / Crossbow: Precise Shot
3. Extra Slayer Talent - Swift Poison
4. (none...replaced by Invisibility Spell-like ability 1/day)
5. Skill Focus: Disguise
6. Rogue Talent - Fast Stealth
7. Extra Rogue Talent - Rogue Crawl
8. (none)
9. Eldritch Heritage - Rakshasa (Silver Tongue)
10. (none)
11. Improved Eldritch Heritage - Hide Aura
12 (none)
13. Toxicological Timing
14. (none)
15. Improved Toxicological Timing

Traits:
Magical Knack (Wizard)
(any other that fits your character)

Feel free to change the order of the Toxicological Timing feats and the Eldritch Heritage feats to suit your needs.

MAX OUT STEALTH!

This build gives you several things: First, it lets you move at full speed for stealth. It also lets you move at half speed while prone. All poisons can be changed to any type, and onset and frequency can be changed down to one round, making cheap ingested poisons viable as inhaled/injury/contact types. The Eldritch Heritage feat line gets Hide Aura, hiding you from all detect spells as a constant ability. Divination focus lets you truly be the scout for the party.

This build also results in a +10 BAB, a 2/3 progression with 7d6 sneak attack.

The heavy repeating crossbow, with the Gravity Bow spell deals damage at 2d8.

Magical Items:
You are going to want to get sniper goggles ASAP.
In addition, a wand of True Strike is useful when you want to make sure you hit that enemy with your poison.
All items that boost your sleight of hand and escape artist
Stealth boosts - Cloak of Elvenkind etc

(edit: didn't put Quick Draw in the list. Can replace the exotic weapon proficiency if that suits your needs and go with a regular heavy crossbow)

Sczarni

Bolt Ace is pretty cool, but I'm not really a fan of pure martial classes. I enjoy having some flexibility. (Of the full BAB classes, Slayer and Cavalier are the most interesting to me.)

If you want to make a sneaky, sniping inquisitor that uses poison, dipping into Rogue for 3 levels as a Poisoner + Toxicological Timing + Improved Toxicological Timing + (optionally, Poison Focus) lets you convert any poison into any other, change the onset time down to 1 round, and change the frequency down to one round (even from a day!). All your poisons are +1 DC, and you can make them all injury (or inhaled for added fun) including the powerful and cheap ingested ones like Oil of Taggit.

Bonus feat if you are a dwarf: Brewmaster to increase the DC of injested poisons by 1 and then convert to whatever type you need.

Poisons are finally viable when crafted at 33% of cost and converted from a powerful, cheap (but slow acting) to a one round onset.

Sczarni

Kudaku wrote:
SoonerTed wrote:
Reading comprehension fail on my part on the proficiencies. When something wrong gets stuck in my head, my brain skips over contradictory information in text. Sigh.

No worries, I do the exact same thing. :)

SoonerTed wrote:
And regarding the repeating crossbows, it negates (almost all) the penalties on the heavy crossbow. Instead of a full-round action after every shot, you only have to take a full-round action after 5 shots. That makes the d10 damage worth it, especially if you can use a wand of Gravity Bow to get 2d8. Couple that with Vital Strike, and you get a single shot at 4d8 at your highest attack bonus for 5 rounds. That sure helps overcoming DR, especially combined with judgments.

If the inquisitor has access to Vital Strike he's at level 8, meaning he has a BAB of +6, or two attacks baseline. With Rapid Shot and haste that turns into +5/+5/+5/+0 before attack bonuses, which an inquisitor should have plenty of. I'd rather take four shots a round with a light crossbow at -2 hitting for 2d6+x instead of a single vital shot shot of 4d8+x. Skipping Vital Strike balances out the cost of Rapid Reload, you're less screwed over by miss chances, and the destruction judgement & bane has fantastic synergy with volley fire.

The problem with crossbows is that ranged combat feats rely primarily on making as many attacks as possible - manyshot and rapid shot are good examples of this. The crossbow's inability to make full attacks without investing feats puts it a bit behind the longbow, and the repeating crossbow exasperates this since as well as proficiency (which is rare) it needs two feats (RR & Crossbow Mastery) to become a free action reload.

This is especially noticeable on inquisitors and smiting paladins, which benefit massively from making as many attacks as possible with a single weapon since they add large modifiers to each attack - the inquisitor from Judgement and Bane, the paladin from Smite Evil and (potentially) Divine Bond.

Ah, I see your point. In the past, I have played a more sneak-oriented Inquisitor, with a couple levels of Rogue to qualify for Rogue Crawl and Evasion. Sniping while prone requires a crossbow.

Manyshot also works with the repeating crossbow, although you need another feat, Clustered Shots, to deal with DR. With Vital Strike, that's only one feat to help with DR vs two to fire multiples against DR.

I like to use poison on my ranged attacks, so a -2 to accuracy for Manyshot often means I miss the target and waste a dose. Focusing all my effort into making that shot hit is what matters to me. The repeating crossbow gives me the benefit of the higher damage and saving me reload time by making it once every 5 rounds. In addition and if you have the money, repeating crossbows actually work with the Endless Ammunition magical enhancement, whereas my GM ruled it does nothing for regular crossbows.

Is a bow more ideal than a crossbow? Certainly. Even Sean K. Reynolds admits on his blog that focusing on realism with the crossbow broke the flexibility and fun element.

The heavy repeating crossbow works well with a sneaky sniping inquisitor. It's not ideal for all builds, but that is what makes the Inquisitor so flexible. You can be whatever you want to be.

Sczarni

Kudaku wrote:
SoonerTed wrote:


Half-orc inquisitors don't get Falchion or great axe because they are martial weapons for half-orcs, and inquisitors don't get martial weapon proficiency.

This is not quite correct. Half-orcs are automatically proficient with the falchion and the greataxe, but treat any weapon with "orc" in the title as a martial weapon. A half-orc wizard can pick up a greataxe and use it with proficiency.

CRB, p. 25 wrote:
Weapon Familiarity: Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.
SoonerTed wrote:
Don't forget inquisitors are the only class to get repeating crossbow proficiency, effectively wiping out all the negatives for a heavy crossbow.
I really wouldn't say proficiency with repeating crossbows "wipes out" the negatives of crossbows. Once you've fired your five bolts (which takes between one and three rounds depending on your level and how soon you pick up Rapid Shot) you're stuck with a full-round reload delay. Generally speaking you're better off using a light crossbow with rapid reload once you hit ~level 5 if not sooner.

Reading comprehension fail on my part on the proficiencies. When something wrong gets stuck in my head, my brain skips over contradictory information in text. Sigh.

And regarding the repeating crossbows, it negates (almost all) the penalties on the heavy crossbow. Instead of a full-round action after every shot, you only have to take a full-round action after 5 shots. That makes the d10 damage worth it, especially if you can use a wand of Gravity Bow to get 2d8. Couple that with Vital Strike, and you get a single shot at 4d8 at your highest attack bonus for 5 rounds. That sure helps overcoming DR, especially combined with judgments.

Sczarni

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The strongest race for an inquisitor is half orc. Humans run a close second due to the alternative favored class bonus, but a half orc also has access to the human favored class bonus so in the end they come out ahead. Getting proficiency in falchion and great axe allows them to pick a deity with a less then optimal favored weapon and still have a good melee weapon. They are also the only ones with access to the feat Ferocious Resolve.

Half-orc inquisitors don't get Falchion or great axe because they are martial weapons for half-orcs, and inquisitors don't get martial weapon proficiency.

I would also argue that giving up judgments makes your inquisitor far less flexible. Judgments do much more than just dealing extra damage. Fast healing, aligned weapons, overcoming spell resistance, and AC bonus are just some of the abilities judgment gives you. This is the defining characteristic of the Inquisitor class because it lets you adapt to any situation.

Don't forget inquisitors are the only class to get repeating crossbow proficiency, effectively wiping out all the negatives for a heavy crossbow.

Sczarni

Malwing wrote:

That person... Ed...ward... Big Brother...

Huh?

Sczarni

Weirdo wrote:
SoonerTed wrote:

This discussion has gotten the creative juices going.

Could an awakened animal count as a "Follower" under the Leadership feat? What about a cohort?

Yes, but they might count as a higher level than their class levels would indicate because of racial HD. You'd need to check with your GM.

For followers, I'd just leave the Racial Hit Die and not take any class levels. A level 4 (or 5, if your Leadership score is high enough) Anthropomorphic Awakened King Cobra would make a great guard or minion.

Combine with a Ring of the Ecclesiarch to double the number of followers and voila! Army of King Cobra Snakemen. (If you have the coin, that is.)

Sczarni

Makes me wonder about an army of awakened, anthropomorphic animals as followers with a Vivisectionist with the Leadership feat...

Sczarni

Has there been any clarification on this? Nothing has been updated in the FAQ. I was curious if another source had addressed this.

Sczarni

This discussion has gotten the creative juices going.

Could an awakened animal count as a "Follower" under the Leadership feat? What about a cohort?

Sczarni

Awaken can't be used on a familiar. I'm also not sure what Anthropomorphic Animal does for you on a familiar. Perhaps you can elaborate?

An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can't serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.

Still looking for positive uses of baleful polymorph, though.

Sczarni

Under the Torturous Transformation, it lists the Vivisectionist gets Baleful Polymorph at 9th level.

Perhaps it's my lack of imagination here, but I'm not seeing how this would be useful to the Vivisectionist.

Why would a vivisectionist want to make something weaker by using this spell/extract?

What are some positive uses for this extract?

All suggestions are welcome and requested.

Sczarni

Thanks. I had read that but I wasn't sure if it always applied. What got me curious is the Alchemist class gets "Throw Anything" as a feat. Why would the authors think that class needed it?

Sczarni

Are items like alchemist fire and tanglefoot bags improvised weapons with the -4 penalty?

Sczarni

It would be great to hear from someone from Paizo on this.

Sczarni

11 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Okay, so Craft Ooze requires a caster level of 5, but is listed in the Alchemy Manual. According to the Advanced Class Guide FAQ (In March of 2013), alchemists don't have a spell level and don't qualify for crafting feats.

Master Craftsman won't work for Craft Ooze, either.

The picture in the Alchemist guide (page 22) is obviously an alchemist, but Alchemists by default can't qualify for this feat! Is there an updated ruling, or is Paizo toying with us in the Alchemy Manual? ;)

They can't qualify for Craft Construct either with Master Craftsman, and the same issue with caster level applies for this feat.

Am I mistaken by RAW? Or is this just the way it is?

Sczarni

I'm playing in a party with all negative-energy affinity characters. As such, the healers all heal with negative energy.

Are there animal companions (druid/ranger/hunter) that have negative energy affinity?

Are there any mounts (for cavaliers) with negative energy affinity?

Sczarni

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm the map, I'm the map, I'm the map, I'M THE MAP!

Sczarni

DocShock wrote:

I really want a FAQ for this as well. I'm building a fell rider cavalier from the advanced race guide, and how overrun works is really important to that build. It makes sense to me that the mount (not the rider) is the one making the overrun, but then what the heck does it mean in the Advanced Race Guide when the fell rider gets rampage:

Advanced Race Guide wrote:


"Rampage (Ex): At 3rd level, a fell rider gains Trample as a bonus feat. The fell rider receives a +2 bonus on overrun attempts made while mounted. In addition, his mount gains a +2 bonus on damage rolls when making hoof attacks or using the trample monster ability, even when not overrunning. This ability replaces cavalier's charge."

Emphasis mine.

The rider is the one getting the bonus, right? And he only gets them while mounted? So is the rider the one making the overrun, even though he's mounted? Who's CMB do you use with the +2 bonus? And if it's the rider, can I take improved overrun and greater overrun and have those effects apply to my mounted overrun? The fell rider archetype seems pretty weak if you're trading in all the charge stuff for an overrun that provokes AoOs and doesn't trigger AoOs for you or your teammates.

Please give us an FAQ for this, it's really confusing and extremely important to the cavalier and fell rider.

Mounted Combat rules are in desperate need of clarification. Perhaps we could get a Player's Companion or Campaign Setting that helps deal with all the issues of rider vs mount. In our campaign, we play with a house rule that the rider occupies all spaces occupied by the mount, to simplify reach issues.

Sczarni

Intelligent creatures (Int >= 3) cannot be animal companions. They have to be cohorts with the Leadership feat. You also can't use push with handle animal to get them to do something they don't want to do; you have to use Diplomacy.

Sczarni

insaneogeddon wrote:

Seems ruling is both provoke!

"When you and our mount move, you both are subject to attacks of opportunity from your foes (your mount might be the one actually doing the moving, but you're moving as well). For example, when you and your mount leave a threatened space, you both provoke attacks of opportunity from foes that threaten that space. A foe who can make multiple attacks of opportunity in a round (for example, a foe with a high Dexterity score and the Combat Reflexes feat) can make an attack of opportunity against you and one against your mount.

As an optional rule, you might want to treat a rider and a trained war mount (or a special mount, such as a paladin's warhorse) as a single creature in battle. When the pair moves, they provoke one attack of opportunity for each foe that threatens them, not one each."

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050201a

The way around this is the Horsemaster's Saddle + Escape Route feat. Since you are always in your mount's square, you never get an AoO while mounted.

Sczarni

Nierak wrote:

The distinction between gaining the benefit for the mount only and gaining the feat is quite big.

For instance how would amplified rage work raging beast mounting barbarian. Would they both gain the amplified rage bonuses, or just the mount.

Thats just 1 example of where this distinction would make a difference.

Amplified Rage specifically says both have to be raging AND have the feat. If your mount can't rage, it doesn't matter if it has the feat or not. That example doesn't make sense.

The plain text of Escape Route says that the square you are in and the adjacent squares do not provoke attacks of opportunity. You are in the square your mount is in. Any movement out of that square does not provoke. Moving out of the next square also wouldn't provoke.

The benefits of the feat are the same as having the feat; otherwise the saddle would have no benefit whatsoever.