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Players need to learn one way or another that splitting from the party, and other poor decisions, will have their own consequences. If you baby him now, he'll only keep doing it. Have him learn early that his choices can kill him, it's best to do so before he gets attached to his character. Then he'll think twice about doing something like that in the future.


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thaX wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Let's try a different example.

Racial Heritage(Half-Orc), and the Razortusk feat.

Are we agreed that this combination is legal?

Humans (and Half-Elves) have teeth. Yep, that works.

But it's a Razortusk feat. Are you ignoring the hidden prerequisite in the fluff name "Razortusk?" Humans and half-elves don't have tusks. Why would you assume this works, because the flavor of the feat clearly indicates otherwise?


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thaX wrote:
I dislike the "the rules don't say that I can't" philosophy.

I find this to be humorous, as everyone arguing that yes, humans can use this feat with Racial Heritage, are using the simple philosophy that "the rules say I can, so I can."

Those arguing against it are using the philosophy "the rules say you can, but you actually can't."


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Daniel Myhre wrote:
CampinCarl9127 wrote:
Daniel Myhre wrote:
"If you use your shield as a weapon"? That's rather telling right there. And the fact it says to treat the shield as a one handed weapon, not that it is a one handed weapon. I can hit you with my frying pan, using it as a one handed weapon. That doesn't mean it is a weapon. it's still a cooking tool, and was designed as a cooking tool. Any offensive use is purely a coincidence. Similarly I could hold a lit bic lighter and spray hairspray through the flames to create a jet of flame. Are you going to claim the hairspray can is a weapon in and of it's self?
Except those are very clearly defined in the rules as improvised weapons. Shields are not improvised weapons.
Actually, they kind of are an improvised weapon. You just don't get penalties for using it like that other then losing the AC bonus.

Longswords kind of are an improvised weapon. You just don't get penalties for using it other then proficiency penalties.


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Start with 20 STR after racials. +5 from all your level ups(25), and a +6 enhancement bonus from a Belt of Giant Strength(31). One level of Alchemist can give you Mutagens for an alchemical bonus of +4 to Strength(35). Taking damage with the Blood Rage spell active(so just whack yourself a few times) can give you morale bonuses of up to +10 Strength(45). Using the Eldritch Heritage feats, you can take Strength of the Beast from the Orc Bloodline to get an inherent +6(51).

I came up with that rather quick, so it's far from optimized, and STR can certainly go higher, but it's entirely possible to use Blood Money as a ninth level caster with enough STR to spam Wishes(as long as you can heal the ability damage and as long as your spell slots persist, at least).


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alexd1976 wrote:
Byakko wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Sure, you got to keep those pesky "unwritten rules" in mind. :)
Indeed, can't have those dead people taking actions after all. ;)

Hey, until published materials say I can't take actions after death, I'm gonna keep on acting.

It is RAW, after all.

Just like this feat is. If it was supposed to work differently, it would have been written differently.

In case you're really using this as a legitimate argument.

Pathfinder Core Rulebook wrote:

Handling PC Death: Eventually, through bad luck or bad

tactics, a player character is going to die in your game. Other
events, such as petrification, paralysis, sleep, and stunning
can have a similar effect on the game as PC death, and the
following advice should apply to those effects as well.
When a PC dies, his player no longer has any input into
the game (unless he has a cohort or other allied NPC he
can start playing). That player has to sit at the table quietly,
watching and waiting while everyone else continues to
have fun with the game.

Here is a screenshot, as this section doesn't seem to be listed on the pfsrd.


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Crimeo wrote:

What else does flavor derive from, exactly, according to you, if not from BEING that race? Since you count as BEING a kitsune for purposes of disregaring prerequisities of feats, abilities, etc., I fail to see how that does not come along with disregarding otherwise mismatching flavor.

Are you born a kitsune and then separately gifted its flavor on your first birthday?

And more importantly: Can you explain to me exactly what racial heritage ever actually does for you, if flavor does not according to you transfer AND full incidental flavor is according to you necessary to use any abilities? From what I can see, it would do precisely nothing ever.

Presumably, for feats such as Cautious Fighter, which is racially restricted without any real reason behind it, as there's little reason why humans, or any other races should be locked from that particular boost to fighting defensively.

But, you could also argue that Racial Heritage doesn't apply to that feat, either. I mean, it has flavor text in it. And how can you justify a human "caring about survival more than victory?" Racial Heritage doesn't give you that necessary flavor prerequisite.

So I guess Racial Heritage just doesn't work unless the feat in question is lacking in flavor text.


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The Archive wrote:
A hat of disguise operates like disguise self. It's illusion, not transmutation. Not exactly on the same level as something like alter self or change shape. So, even going by that interpretation, no, that wouldn't really work.

What about a Hat of Disguise, Greater, in that case?


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RJGrady wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
One of the great mistakes in rules interpretation is thinking that raw can only say one thing

That's irrelevant in this particular discussion, as the RAW pretty much does say only thing. I see two reasonable positions:

Fox Shape needs to be errata'd to require change shape, or
It doesn't, because intended or not, it works fine as it is.

Let's assume for a moment you were a developer and you wanted to make it really clear Fox Shape was allowed by Racial Heritage (kitsune). What language would you add to Fox Shape to make that so? You could write, "Special: This feat does not require change shape as a prerequisite." But then presumably you would list all the other things that also aren't prerequisites. Like, Power Attack, being a dragon, stonecunning, etc.

Very clearly, if this ability was meant to require change shape, its prerequisites SHOULD require change shape. If you believe that was an oversight, so be it, but that doesn't change the fact that currently, it's not there.

Also, I will say: I cannot speak for the write of this feat, only for myself. But I know if I were writing a new ability that keyed off change shape, 100% of the time the Benefit would start with, "When you use change shape..." Period. That's how you write a feat that varies another ability.

I'm just going to echo this. It might be intended to have Change Shape, but as written, it is not required. So ruling as written, there is no requirement to have Change Shape. That may be the intention, and I won't refute that. But there's no way RAW to interpret that you need something the feat does not say you need. It doesn't say you need Change Shape, it doesn't say you need anything other than 13 Charisma, +3 BAB, and being a Kitsune. That's the requirements. That's RAW.

But regardless, others may continue to interpret it by adding restrictions and limits on the rule that are not present. I'm not entirely sure why you'd add those restrictions, as it would make as much sense as adding restrictions to other feats like Power Attack, Cleave, etc, beyond the listed prerequisites as that's how you're "interpreting" those feats. If others continue to interpret the feat by adding prerequisites to feats that don't have them, then I suggest we all FAQ the OP and wait for official clarification on RAI.


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alexd1976 wrote:

I'm actually gonna break it down and do a sentence by sentence analysis of this.

"You can take the form of a fox whose appearance is static and cannot be changed each time you assume this form."

Cool. Sounds awesome, hope it mentions how often I can do it...

"Your bite attack’s damage is reduced to 1d3 points of damage on a hit, but you gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear as a fox."

Um, neat. Didn't have a bite attack before, so I gain one? But it says reduce... I'm confused... Hey, at least I can disguise myself as a fox now! Woo hoo!

"Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action."

Good to know, we can throw THAT sentence out though, because you aren't a Kitsune, and all your feat let you do was count as one TO QUALIFY FOR THE FEAT.

"This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly."

There we go. So, since no duration is mentioned, we can consult the spell, 1 minute per level. Since frequency of use isn't mentioned either, we can consult the spell. Hrm. I guess since it otherwise functions as Beast Shape II, then you have to cast it to use it, as is 'otherwise functions as Beast Shape II'.

Add it to your spell list maybe?

Yeah, without jumping through some hoops, this ability is hard to interpret.

If you want to argue that unspecified criteria are up to the players to choose, please cite the source. Anything else is just supposition.

This feat doesn't list a number of times you can do it per day, even for Kitsune. It can be assumed that it gives you an infinite amount of uses, without an arbitrary limit like "add it to your spell list."

You know, feats like Vital Strike, Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Cleave, etc. don't list a "number of times you can use this per-day." Are we to assume none of these feats function, because it's not specifically giving you the ability to use them at-will? That's silly. Just like it's silly to impose a made-up restriction on the number of times you can use the Fox Shape feat per day.


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el cuervo wrote:
LazarX wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
LazarX wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Hey, how often could a human use this, if it were allowed by the GM?
Depends on the GM. Since you're out of rules territory, I can't give you an answer to beat his head with.
How is this out of rules territory?
Because as demonstrated in previous cases of this nature, there is no rules text to support the OP's assertation. The only defense of what the OP wants falls into "ignore the rule because it's a cool idea" variety.
No, this is clearly within the rules of Racial Heritage. It does not require the change shape Magical Racial Trait to take Fox Shape. If it did, it wouldn't say "Preqrequisite:..., Kitsune," it would say, "Prerequisite:..., Change Shape Racial Trait."

In fact, I'd say that not allowing it seems to be "out of rules territory," as that would be a twist of the feat's flavor text to forbid someone from taking and benefiting from a feat they meet all the prerequisites for.


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MeanMutton wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:

I seriously hate this pedantic b@&~+~!@.

The pedantic b@&~+~!@ is saying that it technically doesn't have a prerequisite of the kitsunes change shape ability, which it never the less references nearly once a sentence.
Except that it literally doesn't mention it even once. The closest it gets is that it reduces bite damage but it is certainly not explicit.

This. Change Shape is not listed in the prerequisites, and it is not once mentioned in the text of the Fox Shape feat. It does list "Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action", but as Racial Heritage allows you to qualify as a Kitsune for the effects of feats, there's no real argument there either.

You can argue that you don't want to allow it for thematic or flavorful reasons, but there's nothing there to suggest that applying the feat as a Human with Racial Heritage(Kitsune) is impossible.


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I've always been interested in doing a campaign where every character, for whatever reason, is shrunken down to only a few inches tall. Along with it just being kinda weird, there's a whole lot to come up with concerning rules and stat blocks for now gigantic(or gigantic-er) sizes. That, and along with balancing out magic items and such(you can't really buy from Ye Olde Magic Shoppe effectively when you can't even carry your gold).

And I'm pretty sure players would get a little fed up with being so comically underpowered compared to your everyday commoner.

It'd be neat to try out sometime, still, with a willing party, but there'll likely be a lot of work to do keeping it all in line.


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Ctrl+f for "fall" provides no results.

I can't believe you ignored the Paladin conundrum. Shame on you.