Just be sure to talk your character over with the other PLAYERS (not the characters), so they can get in on the "joke" too. They can even use it in their own character development
Ok, this is an old gimmick (for us) but we pulled it on a newer Judge just recently...
We sometimes run a bluff that we are an Aspis Team posing as a Pathfinder team - which explained why we had a few Wayfinders with us, and no Aspis badges.
We explain to the "Aspis friendly NPCs" - "It would blow our cover to be carrying our Badges - so we left them back at Base.
"And we don't have enough Wayfinders to go around, so we are making do with the ones we could get ahold of. Now, we need you to help with the cover story... remember, a gang of Pathfinders came to talk to you..." {wink-wink} "...totally NOT an Aspis team."
The funniest part is that one of the players was really tired and kept getting mixed up and saying she was a Pathfinder and then NPCs would just say something like "Yeah, I got that"...
Yeah - we were Pathfinders, claiming to be Aspis agents posing as Pathfinders..."see, we have a couple Wayfinders..."
Edit: Couldn't you just see this table with a BDF at it saying: "well, really we ARE Pathfinders... aren't we?" and the rest of us just smiling and letting the NPCs think "she's a little slow sometimes..."
A minute to search the room, sure. Sir Loin indicated they were given the impression it was a minute to search a "single book shelf."
Sorry, I appear to have miss lead people. We were told that it took a minute to search each book case marked on the map. And so to take 20 on the search would take 20 minutes per book case.
we stated we were going to check for "the mcguffen" in the library. We were then asked where in the library we were "searching" - this was done after our Trap-Finder checked the entire area for traps. (Trap checking was fast, a move action, so she did the Trap Checking with a Take 20 that took a minute). Then "Searching" each book case for the "mcguffen" took a minute per check - and we were told it could be assisted by two other persons (half the team, so three to search and three to watch for servants coming in, or other dangers). Once we located "the mcguffen" (and it's guards) the Rogue attempted to (invisibly) slight of hand a switch (we used another book from a different, unguarded, book case that was "close to the same size/shape). For a round or two it looked like we had succeeded with the "Indiana Jones switch" - but then the "Library Guards" activated and we had a fight on our hands.
The noise of the fight alerted the servants in the dining area, who fled alerting the guards outside - so we exited the library (closing the door on the "library guards" and pulled a "quick extract" while the outside guards checked out the Library. We avoided the Patrol outside with a combination of speed/stealth and luck. All the time we were exiting our Rogue kept muttering that we should have "silenced the servants when we first encountered them" so they wouldn't have called the guards... Thankfully she didn't point this out again when we found out we had "missed" most of the loot (GP award was only about 1/3).
All in all it was a fun scenario, but it seems to be trying to re-inforce the Murder-Hobo playstyle. "Here's your mission, be sure to steal stuff, and kill anyone who objects."
But like I said - I haven't read it yet, so all of this could easily be in error.
Searching is different than looting. If you find the thing, you get the rewards, even if you don’t take the thing.
I can see how the scenario could end up without the party searching everywhere. I don’t remember anything in the briefing that makes searching the whole place something obvious you should do. Since Sir Loin mentioned getting the boons, I’m assuming most of the important places were searched. Again, I don’t have the scenario, so I can’t verify. Anything associated with the guards should have been awarded, I think, as evading them should be as good as defeating them in this situation.
From when I played it - just a rant, feel free to skip it:
We had a Rogue/Trap-spotter in the party to handle traps. So, upon discovering that the stairs to the wine cellar were trapped (good perception), and being told "there is no way to disable this trap from outside the cellar. It is triggered by a pressure plate on the stairs, but cannot be disarmed from this side", we got creative and got our Rogue into the basement without touching the stairs. She then disarmed the trap (Disable Device), and checked for any other traps. Not finding any, she freed the prisoner and they exited the cellar. Did she search the cellar? Well... she took 20 on a Perception "checking for traps", so maybe not? But...
This PC had been trying to steal anything not nailed down during the entire RP part of the story up the actual mission. She checked for a cash box at the bar where we started the scenario. But because she did not say "We loot the wine from the cellar" we had GP rewards for that room deducted from our gp award.
Not having read the scenario, I have to assume it has instructions to reduce the gp award if the players don't say "we loot the cellar".
Common practice in PFS games is to assume the PCs loot everything lootable (is "lootable" a real word? well, I guess it is now). This comes from when many players made the move from Home Games where the PCs are the envy of the historical Vandals (scrap the gold leaf off of book inlays - drag everything out of the dungeon to sell for profit, then sell the hole in the ground - twice if not more). We have gotten into the habit of NOT "wasting" valuable game time to say "we loot all the equipment from the bodies and check under the bed for anything valuable". We skip that part of the paperwork/accounting... We teach this to new players, and it is sort of a trademark of a PFS game. Do we need to get out of the habit? has this become a game of "Mother May I?" where "you didn't say you picked up the gold pieces in the room, so I subtracted them from your CR."
Does the scenario in question have instructions that change the standard practice? I mean, more than usual? I can recall several older scenarios that have things like a cash box under the bar that the PCs are assumed to steal... and I normally don't trim the GP award if the PCs don't actually SAY they rob the bar. Heck, in First Steps, the CR lists a scroll of Remove Disease that the PCs can only get from robbing the Orphanage - I have never marked it out, even if the PCs DON'T steal the medicine from the House of Recovery.
But I know that playing Out of Tier in this scenario has a possible gp award of 2,227, and I gained 809, so about 1/3. And I did this while gaining full PP and XP, though we did miss the Chef's boon (I guess we didn't rob the servants/loot their rooms?). But we got the other boons... We actually had a very successful run... except for not stealing/looting our "limit".
A Take 10 Perception of the room is one round. Just as efficient.
Not if they don't enter the room.
When we played this we were told that perception checks to “search” took a full minute - so to search an area (undefined in size, but implied that it was a single book shelf) would require a minute per roll.
I would discuss that with your local venture officer. In general, overcoming an encounter through means other than combat should not cost you gold. I don’t know the specifics or what scenario you were playing, so I can’t comment on if it was handled right in this instance.
That description sounds familiar. I think I also played it recently and a portion of the loot and a boon was attached to plundering the home of a third party during a 'rescue' mission. My group tried to complete a 'shadow run' also, luckily a combination of incompetence and division within the group ensured we only lost some of the gold. Maybe I may have missed a subtle detail in the briefing (convention) but we weren't given any hints that we should burglarize the place.
I need to go leave a review for that scenario. I have words for it.
Yeah, we had a really good party mix for a fast IN and OUT... They almost didn’t know we were there.
But we didn’t steal the silverware - or loot extra rooms - or kill anyone to loot the bodies... so ...
The rules snafu and the thing that cause the loss of prestige seem almost unrelated.
Yeah, that's what bothers me about it as well. It's pretty much completely unrelated. And I'm bothered by the fact that it bothers me. I really wanna say I'm not bothered by the loss of prestige, but I am. Not because I feel wronged somehow, at least not consciously, but maybe subconsciously.
Anyway, all I wanted to say is, I somehow feel wronged by the scenario, even though I shouldn't be. I just wanted to know if that's rational of me. I just hope that the author's mistake somehow reflects in the solution of the problem he just created. If that makes sense.
yeah, I know what you mean.
I recently played a scenario in which I feel we did everything right. Kind of a classic Mission Impossible Trope where the PCs need to slip into a guarded area, free a prisoner - who gives you extra conditions/objectives and so you do those too, and then get away. Because of our PC alignments/Player temperament we tried real hard NOT to murderhobo the mission - and actually got away with it. A near perfect "shadow run"... until we got to the end. We stepped out of character and started to look at the CRs...
Got the boons on the CR (mostly), got 1 XP, 2 PP and... about 1/3 of the gold. We were told that it seems we didn't kill enough of the inhabitants and steal their stuff. (You see, we didn't kill all the guards and loot the place, we actually avoided them if we could...).
As we headed home, most of us just shrugged and congratulated ourselves on a well run caper - and I really wanna say I'm not bothered by the loss of loot, but I am. So I think I know what you mean when you say "Anyway, all I wanted to say is, I somehow feel wronged by the scenario, even though I shouldn't be." Yeah... I'm feeling that too, from a different game.
The one true answer is Realistic Likeness Feat. That would have you completely covered by the rules, SL.
All the rest is table variation unless we are fortunate enough to get a forum clarification from John, Tonya, Linda or Thursty.
But still in an annoying fashion - sure, you've got a good enough disguise check to likely not be revealed, but if you are you will be seen to be a female disguised as a male.
There's also the weirdness that it's just as easy to pass for any other individual as your own human form.
and that's why I was saying I think a MW Tool would be a better fix... it would only apply to the "Disguise" when posing as her human form.
The one true answer is Realistic Likeness Feat. That would have you completely covered by the rules, SL.
All the rest is table variation unless we are fortunate enough to get a forum clarification from John, Tonya, Linda or Thursty.
Hugs,
Hmm
thanks Hmm, but I don't actually think that "The one true answer is Realistic Likeness Feat." As far as I can tell, it would be about the same as a Disguise Self spell (perhaps from a Hat of Disguise), or an alter self spell . In fact, a Masterwork tool would be a very workable choice too... The MW tool would be limited to this one Transformation, thus insuring that the penalty for disguising as a different gender would still count for taking a disguise of a random person.
Realistic Likeness:
When you are in human form, you can take the shape of a specific individual.
Prerequisites: Kitsune.
Benefit: You can precisely mimic the physical features of any individual you have encountered. When you use your racial change shape ability, you can attempt to take the form of an individual, granting you a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks made to fool others with your impersonation.
The transformation sequence social talent could also be used to justify a change of sex.
But it still looks like it would suffer a -2 to the Disguise skill check, as the "transformation sequence" appears to be mental - with perhaps some physical props (and that's why it gives a +20 bonus to Disguise)
The Disguise check will rarely ever occur, and the bonus is still very significant. It won't come up as an NPC doesn't get a Perception check against your disguise unless they have a reason to suspect you. The Disguise rules are also vague when it comes to using magic because all of the penalties assume you're crafting a physical disguise and they only account for the way you look -- not the way you act. For example, the penalty for disguising as a female shouldn't come into play because you're literally transforming into a female. It's not a disguise if you actually become female, but the rules don't address this except for giving a large bonus. Because of the vagueness, most GMs don't want to mess with the Disguise rules unless they have to.
In short, don't worry about it. Most GMs won't care. PFS GMs don't have time to care.
quotes from the Disguise skill:
"If you are impersonating a particular individual, those who know what that person looks like get a bonus on their Perception checks according to the table below. Furthermore, they are automatically considered to be suspicious of you, so opposed checks are always called for."
and
"An individual makes a Perception check to see through your disguise immediately upon meeting you and again every hour thereafter".
and
"Special: Magic that alters your form, such as alter self, disguise self, polymorph, or shapechange, grants you a +10 bonus on Disguise checks (see the individual spell descriptions)."
So... using polymorph as part of a disguise would give you a +10 bonus on the skill... But "Disguised as different gender" (and I am carefully NOT limiting that to only two genders) imparts a -2 to the skill check. So, if you shapechange to a different gender, you get a +8 bonus on the Disguise check. Use it to shapechange to the SAME gender, and you get a +10 to the Disguise check.
This is checked:
- Each time you meet someone who knows the person you are disguised as ("...they are automatically considered to be suspicious of you, so opposed checks are always called for.")
and
- By everyone else "...upon meeting you and again every hour thereafter".
Saying "It won't come up as an NPC doesn't get a Perception check against your disguise unless they have a reason to suspect you." is not correct. The rule actually states that: "If you are impersonating a particular individual, those who know what that person looks like get a bonus on their Perception checks according to the table below. Furthermore, they are automatically considered to be suspicious of you, so opposed checks are always called for."
At some point, if she remains in his human form, one or more of those NPCs is going to roll a '20' on their perception check, and I want to have her Disguise number high enough to beat that. So that -2 MIGHT matter... unless can come up with some way to overcome it.
If not... then we will just have to go with it as the rules state it.
The transformation sequence social talent could also be used to justify a change of sex.
But it still looks like it would suffer a -2 to the Disguise skill check, as the "transformation sequence" appears to be mental - with perhaps some physical props (and that's why it gives a +20 bonus to Disguise)
This thread was mainly to check on methods in RAW to avoid the -2 to the disguise check for a Female Kitsune with a Male human alternate form.... I guess I should have dropped it into the Rules Form, but I was wanting to get input from people running PFS tables. So I could see how many issues I am likely to run into when I take her out of my normal play group and maybe play him at a convention or game day or some such.
The other possibility is that the character is physically male but identifies as female in social form. The practical advantage of that idea is that it is the vigilante form that will be more closely scrutinized, so it won't occur to most people that the social form might be a cross-dresser.
well...
I had intended for the PC to be Female in vigilante identity (as a Kitsune) and male in the Social identity (appearing human), so that is sort of reversed of what you are describing above. Physically female (Kitsune) but identifies as male (human) in social form.
Why not sleeves of many garments? Also I think that with realistic likeness feat, you would be covered.
The PFS rules let you switch your gender between sessions since there is no almost* no mechanical benefit to being male or female. I don’t think you are hurting anyone here and if you add realistic likeness and the sleeves for costume changes, you should be fine.
Hmm
____
*The one place where your physical sex makes a difference is in character weight, which affects characters on flying mounts. Nearly all low level characters on flying mounts are female because of that five pound weight difference.
sorry hmmm.... I don't understand what sleeves of many garments would even be doing for her. I mean, he actually physically already switches clothing when switching from one Persona to the other, so using sleeves of many garments wouldn't actually be doing anything would it?
My question/issue is just falling back to the -2 to the Disguise skill check suffered when she switches from Knightspawn to Sir Loin...
Disguise of +2 (yeah, a poor CHA) is modified by...
Seamless Guise (vigilante ability) would give her a +20 circumstance bonus, plus
Change Shape Kitsune ability gives a +10 racial bonus, even with the "Disguised as different gender –2" and "Disguised as different race –2" that would still give a final DC of 28 right? (2+20+10-2-2) I'm wondering if I need to boost it even more?
Yeah, there is no mechanical way to make the Kitsune shapechange make you change your physical sex. Sorry.
I'd go with the "part of the Vigilante disguise" explanation. -2 really isn't that much, and "pretending to be different gender" is kind of a classic trope when it comes to masked heroes and the like that Vigilante is trying to emulate. It could be a cool part of your character.
yeah - it is only a -2 after all... still, that's 20% of the bonus she gets for switching guises.
Maybe a Masterwork Tool to cover the difference? If this were a Terry Pratchett Diskworld novel, it would be "pair of socks"...
Monsrous Regiment
That would give me a +2 bonus, perhaps a "MW Tool" specific to Knightspawn disguised as Sir Loin... problem is there is an existing "tool" for Disguise (a Disguise Kit), and some judges in PFS would prohibit the use of a MW Tool for Disguise because the kit exists... But I think I will go that way. 50gp for "a pair of socks". And if it gets disallowed it's only a +2...
The Kitsune feat Realistic Likeness should cover what you need, as well as letting you turn into any other human you've seen.
wouldn't that still suffer the -2 on the Disguise skill check? Same as just shifting to Sir Loin?
Realistic Likeness:
When you are in human form, you can take the shape of a specific individual.
Prerequisites: Kitsune.
Benefit: You can precisely mimic the physical features of any individual you have encountered. When you use your racial change shape ability, you can attempt to take the form of an individual, granting you a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks made to fool others with your impersonation.
Someone pointed out yesterday at a PFS game that I have an uncommon character on several points. She's a non-spellcasting elf, good-aligned and in the Silver Crusade. And she's a rogue, with low Charisma (8).
Ok, looks like I may have blundered into a social minefield... and I need a bit of advice on how to "fix my problem".
I have a PC (the one I am posting as) that I made a mistake on back during character creation... and I am not really wanting to "correct" him, so I would like some advice. Maybe someone knows a gimmick?
My Kitsune Vigilante is 4th level now, soon to be 5th. I had a lot of fun creating her, and even went so far as painting different figures for both Social and Vigilante guises. Different portrait art for my table tent and everything - again showing him both as:
"Knightspawn" - female kitsune and as
"Sir Loin" - male human.
The problem is... it seems kitsune keep the same sex when they shift to human form. Something that I missed back when I was creating her.
So far no one has noticed, or at least not pointed this problem out to me...
SO, is there any way for a kitsune to change sexes when shifting to human form? Or do I just make this as part of his disguise? Taking a -2 to the skill check when she is in human form?
Or am I just being silly and should continue playing him as is?
or... something else?
I would really like to keep this aspect of her as is... does anyone know a way that is legal in PFS to do this and still be within the rules?
