S W's page

Give the monk a D12 hit die. I see him being at least as tough and rugged as the barbarian. He also seems to be the "lawful" counterpart (disciplined) to the barbarian's chaotic fury (wild). Hasn't he spent his life learning to use his body as a weapon? I would think that the Monk's rigorous conditioning regimen would rival or exceed the barbarian's hardy outdoor living. And on top of that he doesn't even use armor. Don't you think he'd be pretty tough? Since the monk character has to deal with MAD he doesn't have lots of points to spare for Con, creating a low hp combat character... huh? Wherefore the d8 hd then? Give him at least a d10.

Melee classes need a major overhaul. The Divine Power thing was just for illustrative purposes. Now clerics will just defend themselves with spells, summons and SoD effects, like they would have done anyway. Clerics don't rely on divine power; it's not the optimal choice for magical combat. It was just mentioned in other threads to show that the touted full BAB wasn't enough to base a class on by itself.

You are right, barbarian makes less sense for a half-orc the more I think about it. Monks may be accepting of half-orc students, seeing that they are an odd group of people who are probably avoiding the greater part of society to begin with.

I also wanted to reflect that half-orc PC's should be sympathetic characters rather than borderline nonsentient brutes.

I found this illustration online: http://www.carybishop.net/stom_palimont.htm

and I must say - this is by FAR the best picture of a half-orc I have ever seen, anywhere. He doesn't look like a pig or a demon, but the odd physique and facial distortion give him an inhuman appearance. The eyes and face are intelligent and very likeable, alien in a fantasy-sort of way without making him look "fey."

The usual depictions of half-orcs make them look like demons or goblinoid pigs. The "orc" part of their heritage is over-emphasized a lot of the time. I could never envision such a monstrous PC as having any sort of potential for acceptance. Might as well play a full-blooded orc.

Stom, on the other hand, has an emphasized humanity. I could see this guy winning over the hearts and minds of humans and elves with his heroics. The character bio isn't what I would have gone with as a backstory (he should've stayed 100% monk), but I really wanted to focus on the way the artist portrays his features. THAT is the kind of half-orc I want in Golarion. Not a troll-green-skinned, dumb, demonic-looking pig.

Off that list you posted, I like Deft Footwork and Rallying Cry the best. More mobility and a usefull team buff would make the fighter more interesting to play.

PC races used as npc's will have a level. An npc dwarven rogue level 12 would simply copy his reflex save into his fort save. If you must look it up, go to any pc class in the Classes section of PRPG. Find any good save. Look up what the base number is at the appropriate level. This is no harder than looking up his HD.

Regarding the "good saves," you wouldn't have to look up anything, even in the case of multiclass characters. ALL classes have at least one good save. Just copy that number to your fort or reflex save. Since it's always a "good save" no matter what class you are, you don't need to mix and match saves as you level up. If you wanted to reflect the fact that your Fighter dwarf is even tougher than the regular dwarf, just take Great Fortitude.

Giving Half-orcs a penalty to Cha instead of Int is more fitting the background fluff. Penalizing Int also hurts fighters and barbarians, who need a 13 int for good combat maneuvers. All classes hurt from lower Int, no need to make the half-orc the worst choice.

I was thinking of giving the human favored class flexibility to all the half-breeds. Another idea is to make Favored class for the half-orcs Barbarian and Monk, 2 classes that support an existence away from mainstream society.

I sort of disagree with the half-orcs being in touch with nature or the gods (so cleric is out). If you were born an outcast, ugly half-breed brute you would probably hate the gods and society.

Let's face it, while half-elves may be the product of "loving couples," half-orcs are most likely the product of wartime rape. Few humans would willingly marry or mate with an orc, while feral orcs are all too willing to "take what they want," if you know what I mean.

Making them stupid makes them unattractive as player characters. Making them sullen and aggressive, yet intelligent makes for a more interesting character type and the penalty to Cha reflects this.

I also wanted to make Half-orcs more attractive to players who wanted an unorthodox fighter-type. There is no reason why half-orcs wouldn't make as good fighters or monks as they would barbarians. They would also make good rogues because they would likely have no problem with stealing and murdering the "beautiful people" who hate them and shun them. I couldn't decide what favored class would fit the half-orc, so I let them choose a favored class.

oops, part of the Dwarf writeup didn't copy. I kept the other pathfinder traits.

Dwarves (continued):

Slow and Steady: Dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.
Darkvision 60 feet: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Stonecunning: Dwarves treat any Profession skill related to stone as a class skill. In addition, they receive a +2 bonus on Perception skill checks to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors located in stone walls or f loors. They receive a check to notice such features whenever they pass within 10 feet of them, regardless of whether or not they are actively looking.
Keen Senses: Dwarves receive a +2 bonus on taste- and touch-based Perception skill checks.
Greed: Dwarves treat Appraise as a class skill when attempting to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals and gemstones.
Hearty: Dwarves receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities.
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers, and treat any weapon with the word “dwarven” in its name as a martial weapon.

They still get the Hearty saving throw bonus on top of their good Fort saves. This is to reflect the fact that Dwarves are the most resilient race in Golarion. There is simply no such thing as a Dwarf with a bad fort save. It goes against the fluff.

Same thing with Elves and reflex saves. They get so many benefits that it doesn't matter if rangers already have good reflex saves.

Regarding the change to Half-Orcs, I am going with the theme that "Half-breeds" can choose any class they want; this they get from their Human heritage as well as their unorthodox upbringing. Barbarians are still "Favored" by Half-orcs if you want them to be. Just pick "barbarian" as your favored calss, done. They would make great Monks, too, and no one has Monk as a favored class.

They DO get their orcish parent's vitality: Orc ferocity grants them the "Intimidating Prowess" feat (makes more sense for an orc) and the "Diehard" feat for free.

Half-orcs now get a cha penalty instead of int; the half-orc had it hard enough without penalizing his skill points. The cha penalty makes more sense anyway for a outcast orc.

Perfect TWF should not be an epic feat in Pathfinder. Let "Crowning Achievement" feats for the combat styles be moved to level 18 or so. 9th level spells with metamagic are already pretty "Epic" by that level, you should give the melees some cool stuff too.

Fighters need a rewrite (all martial classes do) that gives them unique class abilities that provide interesting combat options. Feats generally expand upon existing options (everyone can fight defensively, for example, some feats provide more of a bonus to do that).

Hey all. I've read a lot of innovative and interesting ideas on these forums, and I'm ready to post my own houserules for my Pathfinder campaign.

Please read and critique my Race writeup. Dwarves, Elves, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, and Humans have been changed. The other races are the same as 3.P beta. Keep it constructive, if you can. Enjoy!

Dwarves
Often called the “stout folk,” dwarves are an ancient race. Standing about a foot shorter than most humans, they make up for it in overall bulk, for dwarves have wide shoulders and hips. Dwarves have a love for earth and stone, making them fine stonemasons and expert miners. Dwarves are the most resilient of the civilized races, capable of taking a great deal of punishment, both physical and magical. On the whole, they have a lust for treasure, especially precious metals and gems. Dwarves have a relatively dour outlook rooted in grim reality, but when in a good mood with ale in hand, their rumbling laughter can be heard for quite a distance.
Dwarf Racial Traits
+2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma: Dwarves are both tough and wise, but also a bit gruff.
Medium: Dwarves are Medium creatures, and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Hatred: Dwarves receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and goblin subtypes due to special training against these hated foes.
Defensive Training: Dwarves get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant type.
Dwarven Resilience: Dwarves always treat Fortitude saves as “good saves” regardless of character class. When advancing, use the Saving throw values of the “good save” column to determine a Dwarf's Fortitude save.
Stability: Dwarves receive a +4 bonus to their combat maneuver bonus when resisting a bull rush or trip attempt while standing on the ground.
Languages: Dwarves begin play speaking Common and Dwarven. Dwarves with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following: Elemental, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Undercommon.
Favored Class: The favored class of dwarves is cleric or fighter. This choice must be made at 1st level and cannot be changed.

Elves
Since the dawn of history, the elves have looked upon the other races from their forest abodes, watching them grow and prosper, struggling through barbarism and war. The elves are eternal, or nearly so, having life spans that rival the mighty dragons. While most elves live in woodland settings, others dwell in towering elven cities, full of graceful spires that blend in with the surrounding trees. Some elves choose to leave their kin behind and mingle with the other races, dwelling alongside them but never quite belonging. Elves are patient craftsmen, spending years perfecting their art, be it sword smithing, armor crafting, poetry, or song.
Elf Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Constitution: Elves are nimble, both in body and mind, but their form is frail.
Medium: Elves are Medium creatures, and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Elves have a base speed of 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Elves can see twice as far as humans in conditions of poor illumination.
Keen Senses: Elves receive a +2 bonus on sight- and sound-based Perception checks. They can make a Perception check to spot a secret or concealed door if they pass within 10 feet, regardless of whether or not they are actively looking.
Elven Reflexes: Elves always treat Reflex saves as “good saves” regardless of character class. When advancing, use the Saving throw values of the “good save” column to determine an Elf's Reflex save.
Elven Immunities: Elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
Elven Magic: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance. In addition, elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Appraise skill checks made to identify the properties of magic items.
Weapon Familiarity: Elves are proficient with longbows (including composite longbows), longswords, rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows), and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon.
Languages: Elves begin play speaking Common and Elven. Elves with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
Favored Class: The favored class of elves is ranger or wizard. This choice must be made at 1st level and cannot be changed.

Half-Elves:
Born from elven and human parents, half-elves have trouble adjusting to either society. Ever since the elves and humans first met, there have been half-elves. Most halfelves are born from loving couples who tend their offspring in a manner best suited to their lifestyle. Half-elves tend to follow the societal path that they were raised in. While this is typically human, making those half-elves passionate and energetic, some are raised in elven clans, making them more reserved and deliberate. In either case, traits from the other parent seem to slip through, causing them no end of trouble among their peers. Like their human ancestors, half-elves are skilled at nearly any craft. Half-elves tend to be wanderers, as they find it difficult to fit in anywhere. It is no surprise, then, that many turn to a life of adventuring.
Half-Elf Racial Traits
+2 to one ability score: Half-elf characters get a +2 bonus on one ability score of their choice at creation, to represent their varied nature.
Medium: Half-elves are Medium creatures, and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Half-elves have a base speed of 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Half-elves can see twice as far as humans in conditions of poor illumination.
Keen Senses: Half-elves receive a +2 bonus on sight- and sound-based Perception checks. They can make a Perception check to spot a secret or concealed door if they pass within 10 feet, regardless of whether or not they are actively looking.
Elven Reflexes: Half-Elves retain their Elven parent's amazing reflexes and grace. Half-Elves always treat Reflex saves as “good saves” regardless of character class. When advancing, use the Saving throw values of the “good save” column to determine an Half-Elf's Reflex save.
Elven Immunities: Half-elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
Adaptability: Half-elves receive Skill Focus, as a bonus feat, at 1st level.
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Languages: Half-elves begin play speaking Common and Elven. Half-elves with high Intelligence scores can choose any languages they want (except secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Half-elves can choose any one class as their favored class at 1st level. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

Half-Orcs
Born from orc and human parents, Half-Orcs are outcasts, looked upon with fear, hatred, and pity by most of the civilized world. Half-Orcs are not a new phenomenon: in the days when orcs and humans clashed endlessly, many who found themselves caught in-between were the subjects of terrible violence, with Half-Orcs as the byproduct. While many Half-Orcs today share this dark history, others come from entire communities of Half-Orcs, bound together by their common lineage. Half-Orcs favor many of the traits of their less-civilized parents, tending toward violence and a dark, brooding outlook. From their human parentage, Half-Orcs are gifted with a wide variety of passions. While these stereotypes are not universal, they are quite common. Half-Orcs raised in orc society are often bullied, earning positions of respect so long as they can physically match their peers. Those raised in human society often find themselves the targets of cruel prejudices and are frequently the suspect whenever a crime is uncovered. Due to such difficulties, many Half-Orcs turn to lives of crime or adventuring, where their combination of strength and wits serves them best.
Half-Orc Racial Traits
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, – 2 Charisma: Half-Orcs are physically strong and constantly on the lookout for danger, but they are looked upon with fear and revulsion by the majority of civilized societies who view them as dangerous savages. Although not necessarily ugly, a Half-Orc is usually sullen and suspicious of others, having grown up (at best) teased and shunned by his contemporaries. They are generally just as intelligent as their human parents, which makes them all the more capable of appreciating the prejudices of other races. Even orcs do not usually accept a half-breed, unless he can prove himself exceptionally capable in combat. Their combination of fearsome appearance and hardened attitude is reflected in their generally lower Charisma scores.
Medium: Half-Orcs are Medium creatures, and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Half-Orcs have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision 60 feet: Half-Orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Weapon Familiarity: Half-Orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions, and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.
Orc Ferocity: Orcs get the “Intimidating Prowess” and “Diehard” feats for free.
Orc Blood: Half-Orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Languages: Half-Orcs begin play speaking Common and Orc. Half-Orcs with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
Favored Class: Half-Orcs can choose any one class as their favored class at 1st level. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

Humans
Of all the races, humans show the most variety. They’re a young race by the standards of elves and dwarves, but have accomplished much in their short time. Human cities dot the landscape and their kingdoms rule much of the world. Yet for all of their power, they can easily recede into barbarism within a generation. While some strive to make the world a better place, others seek to conquer it, drawing up great hosts to march on their civilized neighbors. While their craftsmanship does not always equal that of many other races, humans are skilled at nearly every trade imaginable and are often outstanding in a chosen profession. Not surprisingly, adventuring is a common occupation, as most humans have an innate curiosity about what lies beyond the next horizon or at the bottom of the nearest dungeon.
Human Racial Traits
+2 to one ability score: Human characters get a +2 bonus on one ability score of their choice at creation, to represent their varied nature.
Medium: Humans are Medium creatures, and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Humans have a base speed of 30 feet.
Bonus Feat: Humans select one extra feat at 1st level.
Skilled: Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level. In addition, they may choose any cross-class skill and make it a class skill.
Weapon Training: Humans as a race are very warlike, and a human adventurer is proficient with any one martial weapon of their choice, in addition to those granted by class proficiencies. This weapon must be chosen at 1st level and cannot be changed. Human Martial characters who already start out with all martial weapon proficiencies may choose Bastard Sword, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, or any one Exotic weapon of their choice with the DM's approval (possibly a cultural or double weapon).
Languages: Humans begin play speaking Common. Humans with high Intelligence scores can choose any languages they want (except secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Humans can choose any one class as their favored class at 1st level. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

Give them the appropriate class skills and 4 skill points per level.

Crusader of Logic wrote:

S W wrote:

Crusader of Logic, is there any way to send pm's on this board? I was hoping to chat with you about some things, or email you some houserules to get your opinion.

Not that I am aware of. Doesn't have signatures either, which presumably is for streamlining purposes.

Yep, that's why there are no sigs. But some people have taken to copy+paste to add a "sig" to every post.

So are you on any other forums that do have pm's?

I'm not against any of the proposed improvements. +2 to stats is not a game balance issue, and I'm aware that it does more for casters than anyone else.

I wasn't complaining about anything, just saying that martial characters need a lot more buffing.

My remark was that the "power creep" from an extra feat or +2 to stats doesn't affect the relative balance of power; full casters can still do all their tricks, and even if some of the spells have been rebalanced, the fact is that their class features are what provide their power.

Feats and stats are just the icing on the cake.

I gave option 1 some consideration. I no longer support option 1 (the rage system as-is). The points per power/per rage thing does add some needless complication. I don't like the idea of using lesser forms of rage when you could go berserk. That goes against the concept of a raging barbaian imo.

What works best right now is a variant of option 2: keep track of rage points/rage rounds and don't limit rages/day or use points for rage powers.

Rage rounds are strictly 1 point = 1 round of whatever Rage you are capable of. The Rage you enter is automatically the most powerful one you can possibly use, for example if you get Greater Rage you always enter Greater Rage (there is no reason to use Rage at that point). Higher forms of Rage don't use up more rage rounds than Rage.

You can always enter a rage while fatigued, but you add rounds to the duration of fatigue and you add levels of fatigue - 2 rages without enough rest = exhausted for the appropriate number of rounds. You must wait at least 1 round between rages; if you end a rage, you become fatigued and must wait 1 round to "re-rage".

This will make it somewhat costly/risky to rage repeatedly without resting, while not overcomplicating the ponts/per rage/per round/per power type of thing. It also makes Tireless Rage feel like a milestone when you get there.

Rage powers can be always on, activated with a swift action, and used at will during a rage, depending on the power description. Some super powerful rage powers can be used once a day or once per rage.

This is a fun system that makes your barbarian feel powerful and adds some strategy to powers use, without having to keep track of points costs or decide what type of rage you will enter. It also lets barbarians spend their rage rounds in a more free fashion than either the points system or rages/day, while the double fatigue caveat prevents players from splitting up their rage rounds too much.

You do need SOME depth to avoid the "melees are boring" syndrome. As long as the Rage powers are fun and interesting, the barbarian will be a cool character.

Here's the rage powers for my campaign. I posted this, and how I use rage rounds/rage powers without the "points" system on psychic robot's thread.

Rage Powers: As a barbarian gains experience, he learns to harness his rage in new ways. Starting at 1st level, a barbarian gains one rage power. He gains an additional rage power at 2nd level, for every even level of barbarian attained after 2nd level, and at 19th level. He gets a total of 10 rage powers over the course of his career.

A barbarian can use his rage powers at will an unlimited number of times per day unless otherwise noted, but only while raging. Some powers are usable once per rage. A barbarian cannot select an individual power more than once. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are swift actions that must be performed on the barbarian’s turn. The barbarian's rage is automatically upgraded as he gains levels. The Rage becomes Greater Rage at 9th level, then Mighty Rage at 13th level, then Tireless Rage at 15th level, then Berserker Rage at 17th level, and then Invincible Rage at 20th level. Different Rage powers become available at the various Rage upgrades, but a Barbarian can always select a lower-level Rage power if he chooses.

Rage Powers: These powers may be selected at any time by the barbarian. Note that some powers are prerequisites for others.

Intimidating Glare (Ex): The barbarian can make an Intimidate check against one adjacent foe as a free action. If the barbarian successfully demoralizes his opponent, the foe is shaken for 2d6 rounds.

Knockback (Ex): Anyone hit by the barbarian’s melee attacks this round is puhed back 5 feet, if possible. This power is used before any attacks are made. If an enemy is knocked into an object or wall, he must make a reflex save (DC = damage dealt) or be knocked prone. If an enemy is knocked into another enemy, they both take an additional 1d6 damage and both enemies must make the save or be knocked prone.

Feral Instincts (Ex): The barbarian gains blindsense 30' and can activate Rage and take a standard action in a surprise round. This power is always on and costs no actions, but the barbarian must enter Rage normally.

Moment of Clarity (Ex): The barbarian does not take any of the penalties from rage for 1 round. This includes the penalty to Armor Class and the restriction on what actions can be performed.

Guarded Stance (Ex): When fighting defensively, the barbarian gains a dodge bonus to his Armor Class equal to 1/2 his barbarian level for against melee attacks. This power activates automatically when fighting defensively and requires no action.

Greater Rage Powers: The barbarian can select these powers if he has the Greater Rage class ability.

Fearsome Rage (Su): Prerequisite: Intimidating Glare.
The barbarian emits a 30 ft. aura of fear. Any opponent inside this radius must make a Will save (DC = 10 + ½ barbarian's level + Str modifier) or become shaken for 1d4+1 rounds. If an opponent successfully resists the Intimidate check, he need not make another save until the Barbarian rages again. For each enemy the Barbarian kills in combat, he gets a +1 morale bonus to his intimidate checks for the rest of the encounter. This power is “always on” during a rage once selected and requires no action.

Powerful Blow (Ex): Prerequisite: Knockback Rage Power.
The barbarian adds his barbarian level on one damage roll. This power is used as a swift action before the roll to hit is made. If the barbarian also has the Surprise Accuracy Rage Power, he may combine its effect with Powerful Blow with the same swift action.

Surprise Accuracy (Ex): Prerequisite: Knockback Rage Power.
The barbarian adds his barbarian level on one attack roll. This power is used as a swift action before the roll to hit. If the barbarian also has the Powerful Blow Rage Power, he may combine its effect with Surprise Accuracy with the same swift action

Strength Surge (Ex): Prerequisite: Knockback Rage Power.
The barbarian adds his barbarian level on one Strength check or combat maneuver check, or to his combat maneuver bonus when an opponent attempts a maneuver against him. This power is used as an immediate action and may be used in the same round as Powerful Blow and Surprise Accuracy for making Combat Maneuver attacks like trip and disarm.

Clear Mind (Su): Prerequisite: Moment of Clarity.
A barbarian may reroll a failed Will save. This power is used as an immediate action after the save is failed. The barbarian must take the second result, even if it is worse. Any mind-affecting abilities that would affect the barbarian are delayed for a number of rounds equal to his Con modifier. These rounds do not count against the mind-affecting spells' duration.

Rolling Dodge (Ex): Prerequisite: Guarded Stance. The barbarian gains Evasion and a dodge bonus to his Armor Class equal to 1/2 his barbarian level against ranged attacks. The barbarian does not need to be fighting defensively to gain the benefits of Rolling Dodge.

Mighty Rage Powers: The barbarian can select these powers if he has the Mighty Rage class ability.

Terrifying Howl (Su): Prerequisite: Intimidating Glare and Fearsome Rage. The barbarian unleahes a terrifying howl as a standard action. All enemies within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Strength modifier) or be panicked for 1d4+1 rounds. Once an enemy has made a save versus terrifying howl (successful or not) it is immune to this power until the barbarian rages again. The effects of Terrifying Howl stack with those of Intimidating glare and Fearsome Rage. A Mighty Raging Barbarian trying to be frightening can cause quite a few enemies to flee in terror.

Elemental Rage (Su): All of the barbarian’s attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of energy damage for every 2 barbarian levels he has. The energy type must be acid, cold, electricity, or fire. This energy damage stacks with energy damage dealt by special weapon abilities. All damage from the attack is considered to be of the appropriate energy type.

Increased Savage Resilience (Ex): The barbarian gains additional DR 1/- for every 2 barbarian levels he has. This damage reduction stacks with that granted by the Savage Resilience class feature.

Renewed Vigor (Ex): The barbarian can heal himself of any negative status condition by one step. Stunned becomes dazed, nauseated becomes sickened. This is a swift action usable once per round.

Berserker Rage Powers: The barbarian can select these powers if he has the Berserker Rage class ability.

Raging Hurricane (Ex): Prerequisite: Powerful Blow, Surprise Accuracy, Strength Surge: The barbarian can take one additional standard action per round, and may take an attack action as a move-equivalent action. This power is “always on” while raging and does not require any action use to activate.

Feral Spirit (Su): Prerequisite: Feral Instincts, Clear Mind, Moment of Clarity. The barbarian can ignore illusions that grant miss chance and can hit incorporeal enemies as if he were using a Ghost Touch weapon. This power is activated as a swift action and remains active for the entire rage. It must be re-activated for each new rage.

Spirit of the Dire Bear (Su): Prerequisites: Renewed Vigor, Terrifying Howl. With a roar of defiance, the barbarian heals an amount of his own hp equal to his barbarian level times his Constitution modifier. This power is used as a standard action, and can be activated once per day. Any enemies who see him do this must make a Will save or be panicked for 1d6+1 rounds. The DC is the same as for Terrifying Howl. DC = 10 + ½ barbarian levels + his Str modifier.

I use different Rage types in my game, but here's how the powers work:

Quick Reflexes is now a class ability of the barbarian and is available whether he rages or not:

Quick Reflexes (Ex): The barbarian can make an additional attack of opportunity above the normal limit of one per round. This power is used as an immediate action when an opponent takes an action that provokes an attack of opportunity. This additional AoO stacks with the Combat Reflexes feat.

Now for the rage powers:
Rage Powers: Starting at 1st level, a barbarian gains one rage power. He gains an additional rage power at 2nd level, for every even level of barbarian attained after 2nd level, and at 19th level (instead of 20th). He gets a total of 10 rage powers over the course of his career.

A barbarian can use his rage powers at will an unlimited number of times per day unless otherwise noted, but only while raging. Some powers are usable once per rage or once per day.

Rage Powers: These powers may be selected at any time by the barbarian one he learns the appropriate "Rage type." Note that some powers are prerequisites for others.

Intimidating Glare (Ex): The barbarian can make an Intimidate check against one adjacent foe as a free action. If the barbarian successfully demoralizes his opponent, the foe is shaken for 2d6 rounds.

Knockback (Ex): Anyone hit by the barbarian’s melee attacks this round is puhed back 5 feet, if possible. This power is used before any attacks are made. If an enemy is knocked into an object or wall, he must make a reflex save (DC = damage dealt) or be knocked prone. If an enemy is knocked into another enemy, they both take an additional 1d6 damage and both enemies must make the save or be knocked prone.

Feral Instincts (Ex): The barbarian gains blindsense 30' and can activate Rage and take a standard action in a surprise round. This power is always on and costs no actions, but the barbarian must enter Rage normally.

Moment of Clarity (Ex): The barbarian does not take any of the penalties from rage for 1 round. This includes the penalty to Armor Class and the restriction on what actions can be performed.

Guarded Stance (Ex): When fighting defensively, the barbarian gains a dodge bonus to his Armor Class equal to 1/2 his barbarian level for against melee attacks. This power activates automatically when fighting defensively and requires no action.

Greater Rage Powers: The barbarian can select these powers if he has the Greater Rage class ability.

Fearsome Rage (Su): Prerequisite: Intimidating Glare.
The barbarian emits a 30 ft. aura of fear. Any opponent inside this radius must make a Will save (DC = 10 + ½ barbarian's level + Str modifier) or become shaken for 1d4+1 rounds. If an opponent successfully resists the Intimidate check, he need not make another save until the Barbarian rages again. For each enemy the Barbarian kills in combat, he gets a +1 morale bonus to his intimidate checks for the rest of the encounter. This power is “always on” during a rage once selected and requires no action.

Powerful Blow (Ex): Prerequisite: Knockback Rage Power.
The barbarian adds his barbarian level on one damage roll. This power is used as a swift action before the roll to hit is made. If the barbarian also has the Surprise Accuracy Rage Power, he may combine its effect with Powerful Blow with the same swift action.

Surprise Accuracy (Ex): Prerequisite: Knockback Rage Power.
The barbarian adds his barbarian level on one attack roll. This power is used as a swift action before the roll to hit. If the barbarian also has the Powerful Blow Rage Power, he may combine its effect with Surprise Accuracy with the same swift action

Strength Surge (Ex): Prerequisite: Knockback Rage Power.
The barbarian adds his barbarian level on one Strength check or combat maneuver check, or to his combat maneuver bonus when an opponent attempts a maneuver against him. This power is used as an immediate action and may be used in the same round as Powerful Blow and Surprise Accuracy for making Combat Maneuver attacks like trip and disarm.

Clear Mind (Su): Prerequisite: Moment of Clarity.
A barbarian may reroll a failed Will save. This power is used as an immediate action after the save is failed. The barbarian must take the second result, even if it is worse. Any mind-affecting abilities that would affect the barbarian are delayed for a number of rounds equal to his Con modifier. These rounds do not count against the mind-affecting spells' duration.

Rolling Dodge (Ex): Prerequisite: Guarded Stance. The barbarian gains Evasion and a dodge bonus to his Armor Class equal to 1/2 his barbarian level against ranged attacks. The barbarian does not need to be fighting defensively to gain the benefits of Rolling Dodge.

Mighty Rage Powers: The barbarian can select these powers if he has the Mighty Rage class ability.

Terrifying Howl (Su): Prerequisite: Intimidating Glare and Fearsome Rage. The barbarian unleahes a terrifying howl as a standard action. All enemies within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Strength modifier) or be panicked for 1d4+1 rounds. Once an enemy has made a save versus terrifying howl (successful or not) it is immune to this power until the barbarian rages again. The effects of Terrifying Howl stack with those of Intimidating glare and Fearsome Rage. A Mighty Raging Barbarian trying to be frightening can cause quite a few enemies to flee in terror.

Elemental Rage (Su): All of the barbarian’s attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of energy damage for every 2 barbarian levels he has. The energy type must be acid, cold, electricity, or fire. This energy damage stacks with energy damage dealt by special weapon abilities. All damage from the attack is considered to be of the appropriate energy type.

Increased Savage Resilience (Ex): The barbarian gains additional DR 1/- for every 2 barbarian levels he has. This damage reduction stacks with that granted by the Savage Resilience class feature.

Renewed Vigor (Ex): The barbarian can heal himself of any negative status condition by one step. Stunned becomes dazed, nauseated becomes sickened. This is a swift action usable once per round.

Berserker Rage Powers: The barbarian can select these powers if he has the Berserker Rage class ability.

Raging Hurricane (Ex): Prerequisite: Powerful Blow, Surprise Accuracy, Strength Surge: The barbarian can take one additional standard action per round, and may take an attack action as a move-equivalent action. This power is “always on” while raging and does not require any action use to activate.

Feral Spirit (Su): Prerequisite: Feral Instincts, Clear Mind, Moment of Clarity. The barbarian can ignore illusions that grant miss chance and can hit incorporeal enemies as if he were using a Ghost Touch weapon. This power is activated as a swift action and remains active for the entire rage. It must be re-activated for each new rage.

Spirit of the Dire Bear (Su): Prerequisites: Renewed Vigor, Terrifying Howl. With a roar of defiance, the barbarian heals an amount of his own hp equal to his barbarian level times his Constitution modifier. This power is used as a standard action, and can be activated once per day. Any enemies who see him do this must make a Will save or be panicked for 1d6+1 rounds. The DC is the same as for Terrifying Howl. DC = 10 + ½ barbarian levels + his Str modifier.

Here's my proposal for running Rage Powers without the points:

Rage (Ex): A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting his additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds equal to 4 + his Constitution modifier.

Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from spells like bear’s endurance, do not increase a barbarian’s total number of extra hit points unless it was applied before the rage began. A barbarian can enter or end a rage as a free action, but must wait at least one round to re-activate rage.

Rages are renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.

While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 Rage bonus to his Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, he takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. When raging, he gains an additional number of temporary hit points ½ his barbarian level x his raging Constitution modifier, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. Note that this can kill the barbarian if he is "living on his temp hp's" when he comes down from the rage.

While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration. A barbarian can end his rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds he spent raging. A barbarian must wait at least one round after a rage ends to enter a new rage. He can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat. As long as he has rage rounds remaining, he can re-enter a rage while fatigued, but fatigue penalties are cumulative, so “coming down” after two ore more consecutive rages would reset the fatigue duration and make him exhausted until until the fatigue wears off.

Well perhaps the fighter should be last on the list of classes to look at. We should get through the feats section BEFORE we look at the fighter class.

If we talk about the Fighter without going into feats, we talk about Armor Training, Weapon Training, and Bravery. That's the meat of it, the rest is feats. Weapon Mastery too, but there are already Melee Weapon Mastery feats in existing 3.5 material. The PHB2 comes to mind.

Adding new class features would be the only other thing to talk about, suggestions like Fighter Talents.

Here's a question: Why have fighter only feats in the feats section, if only fighters can take them? Wouldn't that make them optional class features like the Rogue Talents? Wouldn't that make them... Fighter Talents?

So let's move on to the Barbarian and Ranger.

Everyone who's wheels are turning (and I read a lot of good ideas on various threads) should make an effort to revise the 3.P fighter. As Jason said, it's a relatively simple class as-is, so revising or adding features/options isn't as much work as, say, revising the spells.

Then when we're about done with the Class Suggestions for the other martial classes - we can post and compare fighter ideas. I'm sure the Feats forum will be out by then, and we can give everyone's up-and-coming Fighter Feats a fair evaluation. Sound good?

Jal, are we accounting for brutes using magic weapons or the equivalent (any enhancement bonus)? Or is this just straight AB from level and Str?

The trick is to get the fighter to last long enough in a slugfest, and it gets harder without the shield. One or two full attack options is often "it" for the fighter, as Crusader of Logic pointed out, so I think we need to adjust the numbers up a bit, don't you?

I am not trying to make SAB fighters invulnerable, but to make two-handers and dual wielders viable.

I did rewrite the Monk, Barbarian, Ranger, and Paladin as well (Ranger and Paladin isn't done yet) but, you're right I do increase their offenses as well.

Fighters also get to master 2 Combat Styles and can pick from several Fighter Talents as they level up.

Don't worry, the fighter didn't get all the boosts. The weapon training = greater damage dice thing is reflecting his mastery of weaponcraft the same way the monk's unarmed damage progression reflects his mastery of martial arts and ki.

The barbarian gets some interesting things to keep his damage high, and he's more "rage enhanced" than "rage dependent." Rage Powers and "always on" Rage effects, as well as auras while raging.

The ranger gets an equal animal companion to the druid's, the weapon styles are free feats and not situational, the Master Hunter ability comes sooner than 20th level... haven't decided on his capstone ability yet. I was considering giving the Ranger a wildshape variant.

The Monk gets full BAB, is no longer MAD (Str and Wis are important now) bonuses to Combat Maneuvers, Ki strike is an actual enhancement bonus like a permanent magic fang, quite a few new Ki powers that act as self-only buffs, melee powers, and certain targeted spells. He also gets his dice size increases sooner (monk chart tops out at level 14) and can still get INA and some martial arts styles. Monk looks the best out of all of them right now, I designed 2 monk paths, one more physical the other more mystical.

The paladin is no longer MAD (Str and Cha are important), gets auras, access to domain powers, an "always on" version of smite evil as well as specific "smite attacks," more powerful LoH and I don't know what else yet.

All martial classes get combat styles and combat stances at different levels depending on what class you are. Only the Fighter gets all of them.

Combat styles like Two Handed Fighting, Archery and Thrown Weapons, Weapon and Shield Style, and Dual Wielding (so as not to be confused with Two-Weapon Fighting feats). The Fighter can master any 2, others only get 1. Ranger can master Archery/Thrown or Dual Wielding, Barbarian can master Two Handed Style or Dual Wielding, and Paladin can master Two Handed style or Weapon and Shield style.

Monks have their own martial arts talents, and don't get weapon styles.

Combat stances are simple right now, aggressive, defensive, and tactical. Nothing is copied from Bo9S.

Squirreloid, is there some way I could communicate with you off these boards? Are you on another forum? I don't see a pm feature here and I'd like to email you some stuff to critique for me (it's too long to post here).

The dice step increase is not the same as a size category increase. I think some of you are confused. Monk progression skips some die step increases.

I know there was a 3.5 book out there that explained dice step vs. size category increases, but I am trying to remember what it was so you'll need to humor me for a while...

***EDIT I think we're better off just going with straight size increases as it's easier to reference and only a bit more powerful than die type increases. I just found the arms and equipment guide, just use the chart in there on page 4.

Jal, perhaps +1 ac for every 2 BAB for heavy and for every 3 BAB for medium. We would have to come up with a good "target" ac for making an equal-level brute miss 65% of the time against heavy armor and 80% of the time against heavy armor plus a shield.

Crusader of Logic, is there any way to send pm's on this board? I was hoping to chat with you about some things, or email you some houserules to get your opinion.

S W wrote:

This is the way I've been using Weapon Training, and it works great for keeping fighters a step ahead of the curve when you compare him to enlarged druids and clerics with buffs running. The normal-sized fighter is doing more damage with his greatsword than the enlarged cleric is with his spell running.

It makes the fighter the Weapon master he always should have been, doesn't use up feats, and Sure, the cleric can still cast Enlarge person and buffs on himself, but if he casts it on the fighter it's several times more effective, becasue his base damage with his weapon training is a lot higher anyway.

I definitely agree that the weapon focus should apply to all weapons in the weapon group.

I do not necessarily agree with the higher dice damage being a part of Weapon Training.

But perhaps your concern earlier with the feebleness of Weapon Specialization feat - perhaps that can be the benefit of that feat - higher dice damage instead of +2. A discussion for feats.

Finally, I'm not sure if I'm too worried about the buffing cleric etc. Of course I don't want there to be a grave discrepancy between a super-buffed cleric vs a fighter - but its important to remember that a) the cleric has to spend that time buffing, and b) they are only finite and will eventual wane or be dispelled while a fighters training is omnipresent. Furthermore similar buffs can also be placed on the fighter - if the fighter is already as good or better than other classes can possibly get with all their buffs, then he becomes even exponentially more superior if/when the party casters provide buffs, or he quaffs buffing potions, etc.

Robert

Actually, my point is not that the pc fighter is better buffed than the pc cleric (although some buffs are self-targeted) but that it isn't by much. An npc warrior cohort would do just about the same as the fighter in that case.

With scaling damage dice via Weapon Training, the fighter is hands-down the better choice, and is a much different person than any npc. Caster evocation damage scales with level. Rogue sneak attack damage scales with level. Caster DC damage scales with level. Fighter damage dice SHOULD scale with level, too.

Why should his waraxe still be doing, in a good scenario, 1d10 + 15? (+11 for 32 str, +4 from 3.5 wep spec/g wep spec)? Even with a +5 weapon it's only 1d10 + 20 - that's only 21-30 per attack, if it hits, and no SoD? Compare that to what any equivalent - level caster can do even with evocation. I bet it's more than 5d6 (5-30). Yes, I know his min damage is a lot higher but he has to get close and hit for it to matter; casters can cast from range.

Now compare that to the typical evil outsider of equivalent CR, and you will begin to see that Fighters are no longer so much of an asset - they are a liability. A summoned monster or animal companion can fill his role without there being so great a cost to keeping the summoned beast alive.

Martial classes need a huge buff to go from tier 5 to tier 3. Just readjusting a few +1's or +4's isn't going to do it; they must be compared to existing tier 3's, not to each other.

I do appreciate your responses though. ;)

Robert, when I rewrote the fighter for my game, I also rewrote the other martial classes as well. I want them all to be distinctly powerful, and distinctly different from each other in significant, flavorful ways.

Regarding Weapon Training: The scaling damage dice are necessary to make the fighter a good direct threat in melee at higher levels. A flat bonus is nice, but that alone won't make a difference at high levels where every hit counts.

The relative power of feats will require a rewrite of the feats; as of the current 3.p rules, they aren't powerful enough to warrant basing a class around them. Certainly not like other "class basis" features like spellcasting and shapeshifting.

The 3.x barbarian needs almost as much of a boost as the fighter. His DR isn't good enough at high levels, and his low ac will make him an even squishier target than the fighter or ranger. Some rage powers should be combined, others should be "always active" while raging and could be "rage feats."

The paladin is just plain bad. The pally needs a complete rewrite of auras, class abilities like smite, and he needs to heal better and use offensive spell-like abilities. What devil or wizard-lich is going to fear a 3.x paladin of equal level? I bet they'd fear the cleric though.

During the creative process of rewriting the martial classes, I came to the conclusion that they need to be compared against the overall combat effectiveness of their enemies at a given CR level - NOT, as many people are doing, comparing their features to each other alone. "3.x Fighter vs barb, vs pally" discussions, without adressing the OVERALL power level of Martial classes, is just going to result in minor tweaks that leave them all at tier 5.

Spellcasters get stoneskin and greater stoneskin long before the fighter gets armor mastery or the barbarian's DR gets good. The fighter and barbarian both need a DR boost. Right now, DR is neither a fighter thing nor a barbarian thing; it is a spellcaster thing.

A melee druid or cleric with stoneskin and appropriate size/str/shapeshift buffs running is the best melee character right now, both offensively and defensively. Plus they get better saves.

Hi there all,

While I think there might be some room for improving the benefits granted by weapon and armor training (and I am all up for discussing such benefits), the real place we can improve the fighter is through feats, especially by adding higher level feats, which is something I intend to do. But, as I have stated many times, we are going to hold off on feat design until the feats chapter (if we break this rule, we are really going to run into some chaos when we hit spellcasters).

Anyway, I am interested in the idea of allowing a fighter's weapon training to allow him to apply weapon focus to all of the weapons in that group. Very interested. Any more ideas along these lines (ie, adding bonuses to weapon and armor training).

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I propose the following changes to Weapon Training:

Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. (*this is exactly what you wrote in 3.P beta).

Increase damage dice of all weapons in a Weapon Training group by 1 step for each level of Weapon Training in that group. So the weapon group with +1 Weapon Training bonus gets one damage step increase, and by level 17 the weapon group with the +4 bonus from Weapon Training gets 4 damage step increases. (*this is the part I added. A damage step increase is not the same as a size category increase, it was in the 3.5 dmg and the weapon/armor book, the chart should be easy to find.)

The fighter's Weapon Training bonus is added to his CMB whenever he is using a weapon from that group. (*I added this because it makes sense and it fits the "tactical" vision of the fighter, that he is better at Combat Maneuvers than the feral barbarian or spellcasting melee classes).

Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups. A fighter can reassign his weapon training bonuses like a ranger can reassign his favored enemy choices. (*I added this part about reassigning weapon choices to avoid potential "newbie trap" headaches to new players who picked a "cool" weapon or tried something original that didn't work out mechanically as well as they had hoped).

Weapon groups are good in 3.P, but I would ask that we tighten up the groups somewhat, we have an Axes group but no Swords group. Dual wielders are going to want rapier and dagger, or longsword and shortsword and we want them in the same group for ease of use. Otherwise battleaxe/handaxe is a better choice than longsword/shortsword.

This is the way I've been using Weapon Training, and it works great for keeping fighters a step ahead of the curve when you compare him to enlarged druids and clerics with buffs running. The normal-sized fighter is doing more damage with his greatsword than the enlarged cleric is with his spell running.

It makes the fighter the Weapon master he always should have been, doesn't use up feats, and Sure, the cleric can still cast Enlarge person and buffs on himself, but if he casts it on the fighter it's several times more effective, becasue his base damage with his weapon training is a lot higher anyway.

Dear Robert,
In accordance with our community's atmosphere of diplomacy, explain how the fighter is awesome at higher levels without spellcasting, any form of save-or-consequence effect, or damage that scales appropriately with monster hp (especially the brutes he will inevitably face in melee)?

Does his +2 to hit and +4 to damage costing a whopping 4 feats in the rules-as-written somehow equal Large or larger shapeshifted druid with Bull's Strength and Greater Magic Fang in effect? Or a cleric with Greater Magic Weapon/Magic Vestment, Bull's Strength, Righteous Might and Divine Power running?

Not to mention Rusting Grasp... a giant, super strong melee'r with an extra attack (from Righteous Might) who can emulate a rust monster. Goodbye armor, goodbye shield.... Bull's strength alone is a 2nd level spell that even paladins can cast, costs no feats, and gives +2 hit and +2 dmg, more than weapon focus/weapon spec does unless you rewrite those feats. Also, the enlarging effects give a significant bonus to hit and dmg from incrased str, they threaten a larger area from increased reach, weapons base damage is significantly increased, and they get a good CMB bonus from being larger... need I say more?

If you want an "awesome" melee combatant under the current rules of 3.p, you want a cleric or a druid. A fighter is only comparable IF you have your PC spellcaster cast spells on him... like any npc/cohort.

DR 5/- at level 19 is not enough to matter. DR doesn't mean anything once the game gets into higher levels unless it's at least in the mid-teens. Barbarians need a boost in DR, and fighters should get DR with armor training AND armor mastery.

I agree with the shields adding a concealment effect against melee and ranged attacks. When considering if it stacks with displacement or mirror image, for example, well I would say no, because shield blocking is for attacks that would have hit you (roll to hit ac first, if it's a hit roll against shield block chance), whereas mirror image and displacement cause things to miss your body entirely (no reason to reach out and block something that passed by you 5 feet away). Usually spells have a higher % to avoid getting hit than 25%, so you would take the higher % for gameplay reasons.

Also you should be able to "deflect arrows" with a shield, and use a "shield parry" maneuver to intercept melee attacks. Deflect arrows feat should automatially let you deflect 2 normal missiles in a round instead of the 1 normally allowed by deflect arrows.

Shield bonus should add to touch ac as well as defensive CMB.

Shield bash should be an extra attack you can add to any full attack action at full BAB, kind of like flurry of blows. Shields don't do that much damage, and it's easy to rationalize that a SAB fighter hits with his shield once in a round. Or, with a successful melee attack with your weapon, you get an immediate free attack with a shield bash once per round. That would keep the shield bash useful (hey, an extra hit), without overwhelming the extra hits from TWF.

With an appropriate level or feat, shield bashing/shield rushing should add a stun or daze/knockdown attack with a STR based DC. The use of shield bashing is at no penalty to hit, and 2-weapon fighting feats are not requried for fighting with a weapon and shield (a shield strapped to your arm is far easier to maneuver than another sword in the other hand).

The Beta fighter is fine, lets wait to work on the feats and they will become devastating.

The beta fighter is fine for an npc class. All other martial characters are "better" with the possible exception of the paladin. This is an attempt to make the fighters stand out at fighting, and rewriting feats (for example weapon focus/weapon spec line) is a step towards doing that.

When I rewrote the martial classes for my game, one of the concerns I had was survivability against spellcasters. Even if you can threaten them, they can often get away.

I do like your idea of martial characters adding to a wizard's risk while casting. 10+BAB+ Weapon Training level for fighters, or 10+CMB would be an easy calculation to use. Of course, you would have to specify that this applies to ALL spellcasters being attacked in melee, not just wizards, and it applies to spell-like abilities, so if the fighter can somehow get in melee with a demon or devil that can "teleport at will" they will have a hard time just teleporting away and casting death spells at him from safety.

Thing is, Set, Fighters already get a flat bonus for getting Weapon Training, and if you read my feat rewrite for the weapon focus/weapon spec line, it does what you're suggesting (adds more bonus as you level up).

Adding your "precision damge modifier" class feature beyond weapon training and the weapon spec feats to give yet another flat damage bonus of yet another type (precision) adds nothing game-wise but more bookkeeping (so wait, the fighter's weapon training and weapon spec bonus count against the golem, but not the precision damage? I didn't record it separately... hold on...).

The damage dice increase similar to monk unarmed damage progression is something that was already suggested many times before, fits the character concept (I get better at fighting with my chosen weapon as I advance as a fighter), and provides incrased incntive to play a fighter. It also makes melee damage a viable option at higher levels, where "blasting" isn't usually the best route to success. This, combined with feats that multiply damage, add Con damage (like Deadly Stroke) and/or add situational save-or-die effects, will make the fighter actually better at killing things in melee than casters.

Casters will still be better at killing things in general, but hey, they're tier one (and probably wouldn't bother getting into melee range).

While your idea sounds good in theory, the amount of "ammo" the wizard has handy can far outnumber his normal "spells per day." This is especially true at higher levels where the wizard has achieved his "Gandalf the game-smasher" status.

At an appropriate level, the wizard would invest in items of spell storing, scrolls, rod/staff/wand charges, and other goodies that greatly expand his uses/day of certain powers. He remained a threat, if well-planned, unless you threw a vast amount of enemies and/or tricky enemy magic-users at the party, and the 3.5 martial characters were likely to run out of hp (due to the necessity of putting themselves in danger to be effective) long before the wizard ran out of tricks.

Or, to make things really simple, increase the armor bonus for heavy armor by 1 for every point of BAB you have. Increase the armor bonus for medium armor by .5 for every point of BAB you have. Light armor remains the same, but allows for the highest Dex bonus.

Now martial heavy armor users get the most out of heavy armor (any armor they use for that matter), and druids/clerics are still getting mileage out of heavier armor at a decent rate.

Barbarians are getting higher ac than they used to with med armor (making it perhaps a better choice than light armor), but not as much as fighters/paladins using heavy, while rangers using light armor can still rely on high dex/the same things they always used.

Good observation on the massive damage saves as a fightery thing.
The damage step incrase with Weapon Training levels would trigger at 5th and every 4 levels thereafter, providing a nice damage boost for your Fighter to trigger massive damage saves and attrition on melee brute enemies. That's one of the reasons I put it in; a full attack or good crit from a fighter against a resonable opponent will likely force a massive damage save, if it doesn't kill the enemy outright.

Casters trigger save-or-dies in preference to massive damage saves. The best casters are not evokers. They kill at will without resorting to "enlarged expanded fireball" spam. As far as keeping up with spellcasters, they often attack saves and not hp, making them inherently more dangerous than non-casters.

The damage dice increase is already a mechanic in place for the monk, and the table for damge dice increases and size increases is in the 3.5 dmg, I belive. Go to the appropriate size column and read down. To get a size increase, shift one column to the right. The PRPG has a chart for monks, but they advance faster than the typical dice increase as they level up.

First of all, I would give the Fighter the following class feature when he acquires Weapon Training at 5th level.

Weapon Aptitude (Ex): At 5th level, Weapon-oriented feats that apply to only one weapon, such as Weapon Focus, apply to all weapons in that chosen Weapon Training group. If the weapon is in more than one group, pick one to apply this effect to. For example, Weapon Focus: Greataxe now applies to the entire “Axes” group if the fighter has Weapon Training in the “Axes” weapon group.

Now the Fighter automatically gets far more mileage out of the WF/WS line of feats than anyone else. He gets this bonus in "Axes" for example whether he's dual wielding Dwarven waraxes, using a Greataxe in two hands, or throwing a hurlbat/hand axe at someone.

Everyone else who takes the Weapon Focus/Weapon Spec line still applies these feats to ONE weapon of their choice. I would then make the weapon focus and weapon spec feats available to all characters who want them, with specific BAB requirements instead of "fighter level x." Now for the most important part, I would change the feats to give more benefit to characters as their BAB grows. Here is my proposed write-up:

Weapon Focus [GENERAL, FIGHTER]:
Prerequisites: Weapon proficiency with chosen weapon, BAB +1
Select any weapon that you are proficient in, Improved Unarmed Strike counts a weapon for the purposes of this feat. You gain a +1 to hit upon taking this feat, and another cumulative +1 to hit for every 5 BAB that you have, when using this weapon. This bonus is also added to rolls to confirm critical hits and to your combat maneuver bonus.

This feat can be taken more than once, but it can only be taken once for a particular weapon. Each time it is taken, it applies to a new weapon.

Weapon Specialization [GENERAL, FIGHTER]:
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus in chosen weapon, BAB +4
Select any weapon that you chose for Weapon Focus. Improved Unarmed Strike counts as a weapon for the purposes of this feat. You gain +2 to damage for every 4 BAB you have, when using this weapon. In addition, when using a weapon that your Weapon Specialization applies to, you may use your move action as an attack action (like a second standard attack action) if you so choose (you can still take a 5-foot step to make this attack).

This feat can be taken more than once, but it can only be taken once for a particular weapon. Each time it is taken, it applies to a new weapon.

Greater Weapon Focus [GENERAL, FIGHTER]:
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Weapon Focus in chosen weapon, Weapon Specialization in chosen weapon
Select any weapon that you selected for Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. Improved Unarmed Strike counts a weapon for the purposes of this feat. The bonuses you gain from Weapon Focus double, so every +1 granted by Weapon Focus is now a +2, applied to all rolls to hit and all rolls to confirm critical hits. You may also apply this bonus to your combat maneuver bonus.

This feat can be taken more than once, but it can only be taken once for a particular weapon. Each time it is taken, it applies to a new weapon.

Greater Weapon Specialization [GENERAL, FIGHTER]:
Prerequisites: BAB +8, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, all in chosen weapon
Select any weapon that you selected for Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. Improved Unarmed Strike counts a weapon for the purposes of this feat. The bonuses you gain from Weapon Specialization double, so every +2 granted by Weapon Specialization is now a +4, applied to all damage rolls made with that weapon.

This feat can be taken more than once, but it can only be taken once for a particular weapon. Each time it is taken, it applies to a new weapon.

Now, the feats are valuable for EVERYONE who plans on fighting, because CMB will scale faster for characters who "Focus," and they are more likely to confirm crits as they get better at fighting. I never really liked the idea of "confirming critical hits" but it's a staple of the 3.x system so we'll roll with it.

The idea that characters can specialize with weapons who are not necessarily "pure Fighting characters" is a staple Fantasy trope; there are many Rogueish characters who are masters of a light weapon or one-handed sword. Barbarians and rangers should be able to specialize in their chosen weapons too (Drizzt and Wulfgar?) while "Pure fighters" still get more mileage out of these feats (versatility) and are better weapon fighters overall (Weapon Training, and other levels of weapon mastery/grand mastery could be made class features for Fighters).

Now to further set the Fighter above his sword-using brethren, I added the following to the Weapon Training class feature:

Increase damage dice of all weapons in a Weapon Training group by 1 step for each level of Weapon Training in that group. So the weapon group with +1 Weapon Training bonus gets one damage step increase, and by level 17 the weapon group with the +4 bonus from Weapon Training gets 4 damage step increases.

This allows Fighters' weapon damage to scale as they level up, much like a Monk. If he has Weapon Training +4 in the Heavy Blades group, a level 17 fighter's greatsword now does 4d8 base damage.
(2d6 -> 2d8 -> 2d10 -> 4d6 -> 4d8) That's more than a normal sized 3.p monk's unarmed damage at level 20.

Also his damage with any other weapon in that group is accordingly increased. Scaling damage with weapon training in addition to flat bonuses gives the impression that the fighter is getting the most out of his technique when he attacks with his weapon as he increases his Weapon Training. It also is a class feature that "sets him apart" from other sword-users the same way Monks are set apart from other characters using Improved Unarmed Strike.

Some of the Rage Powers could be made into feats that are "always on" or "at will" while raging. That would solve some of the headache for those that are having such an issue.

Styles and stances for all martial characters (Fighters, Monks, Barbarians, Rangers, and Paladins) would be an awesome addition to the melee classes' powers. It would truly set them apart in the players' minds and allow for further specialization/customization.

I agree with a lot of what you said. The 40 barbarian horde thing, is going to come up no matter what character or monster you're using if they have spells or spell like abilities a limited number of times/day.

Wait till you get to paladin.

Grappling, Tripping and combat maneuvers don't have the same level of threat they did in 3.5.

Even rangers get a save or die ability (although at level 20, it's way too late).

S W: While I acknowledge your point of view, can we please not go through the debate about spellcasters/melee here? This is a place for feedback on the actual PRPG rules and potential ways to fix them within the guidelines provided.

Rolling to hit the -10hp equine isn't helping. Warriors, especially fighters, have a simple fix: they rely on feats for power, so give them more and better feats. PRPG gives all characters more total, now they just need more and better to choose from.

3rd Edition had a weakness: That weakness was introducing a new subsystem, feats, and only providing a small quantity of options. In time, the feats available to warriors can make them shine just as bright as a spellcaster without resorting to quasi-magical effects.

I'm going to be blunt - if you really feel that the sorts of changes being presented here (by others, including those Jason has already provided in the Beta) are not helping your game, maybe Pathfinder isn't ever going to make you happy.

1. The problem is that the fighters rely on feats for power. Feats are not usually powerful in and of themselves, and the fighter has nothing that is uniquely "his."

2. Any "power" you can gain through feats is readily duplicated or superseded by another class using class abilities or (you guessed it) spells, usually low-level spells.

3. Among 3e's many problems was not the number of feats necessarily (3e has hundreds to choose from now) it's that they almost all stop mattering for straight-up fighting before level 10, at least the ones that don't affect spellcasters.

4. The racial changes and most of the class changes were good, especially to the magical classes. THOSE I really like. Pathfinder's setting is better than most rpg's. The overall product is already good. If martial classes were exotic, cool, and interesting to play, then Pathfinder would be very close to the perfect d20 rpg.

The issue is with martial classes in general, and the fighter, monk and paladin in particular. Their abilities compared to the other classes, especially in their favored "role" (melee combat) don't warrant use as a PC class. There is nothing spectacular in any of those classes, nothign "fantasy/legend" worthy - mechanically, they are straight attrition characters. Why is there not even a single "save or die" attack/feature. In fact, unless feats become the equivalent of 7th level spells, the above mentioned classes will sit at the bottom of the pile.

So now you have to hobble the rogues so fighters can feel "special"? Just give them some powerful class abilities and be done with it.

Fighter talents, Rogue Talents, and other new class features are exactly what was needed. I got the Book of Nine Swords and I find that they are not overpowered in the least, and if they resemble spellcasters, it's becasue the spells/level/day format is exactly what ALL classes needed in the first place for their tricks.

Notice no one is complaining about spellcasting (unless they complain that some spells are TOO good), precisely because the system works and is good. I wouldn't do a class rewrite exactly as Bo9S did, but the warblade is - for all intents and purposes - very close to what a fighter should have been in 3e.

The martial classes, especially fighter, paladin and monk... well, they aren't needed, or even particularly useful. The new abilities don't add enough, and the feats like Power Attack aren't as good as they were in 3.5. There's literally nothing to recommend the fighter, paladin, or monk at this point. Any cleric or druid has your "melee" aspect covered better than the fighter ever could, at the levels that matter. Fighters get no tricks of their own in 3.p, and that's why they're tier 5.

Please explain what "backward compatibility" means to you, and how a Fighter rewrite with "Fighter talents" like "Rogue talents" would somehow break the game.

How is it anymore dangerous to backward compatibility than the dozens of presige classes in splatbooks that replace or enhance the fighter? Or how about the Book of 9 Swords? Pathfinder is supposed to work with that, so why not include an updated class in the Pathfinder RPG that has effective elements for the fighter class WITHOUT having to sort through dozens of splatbooks to make one solid Tier 3 Fighter?

Is there anyway to chat or exchange emails with you? I don't see a PM function on these forums and I'd like your opinions on some things that I don't want to post. Thanks.

Part of the problem with the fighter class is that they are too simple. If you insist on keeping them as they are, then they would be better used as a straight NPC class and something entirely different added for the player who wants a "melee weapon user" type of concept. The only core character worse off than the fighter is the monk.

This was a 3.0/3.5 design problem, not Pathfinder's. Fighter class abilities aren't there, and the feats (especially the "fighter only" ones) are just not good enough. He is completely, utterly outclassed in melee by druids and clerics, or by any outsider worth summoning at high levels. As written, the fighter makes a decent cohort/pack mule until about level 8 to 10.

Your ideas have merit, but they don't add enough to the class to make him a credible threat on a mid to high level battlefield. He needs to move enough, he needs to do tons more dmg, he needs to use SoD effects, and he needs to have a great success rate with combat maneuvers against reasonably powerful enemies. He also needs a lot more AC; currently, the best AC characters don't wear heavy armor, but that's another 3.0/3.5 system error and a subject for another thread.

There is literally nothing that the fighter brings to the table that changes the odds in the party's favor if the party already has a full caster.

I am of course talking about mid to high level play, the "sweet spot" until about 15th level, which is where fighters are left in the dust. At 1st through 3rd level, as someone pointed out, the fighter with a 2 handed weapon and high Str is basically making melee Save-or-die attacks against the dc of a mook's low AC.

That wouldn't come close to fixing the fighter. He still has no way of dealing with the most obvious threats at high level - melee brutes, who have far more hp than he can deal with quickly and are about the only enemies he can catch. Class skill points per level and HD's have been changed already, so that's not an issue for backward compatibility. Even if it was, it's no different than using the "weaponmaster" or "frenzied berserker" prestige class - they are different from the core fighter, and don't violate "backward compatibility." What does backward compatibility mean to you?

Your heart was in the right place when you did the fighter rewrite, but in practice he's only marginally better than the 3.5 fighter. He is, in fact, less imposing than the 3.5 variant because Power Attack isn't as good as it once was.

With all due respect, I believe that the Fighter needs class features that synergize with feats and make them more powerful if he takes them, then if others take then (even the barbarian, ranger, and paladin). I have so many questions and ideas, I don't know where to begin, so forgive me for rambling here...

1. I understand you want to hold off on the broad spectrum of potential feat changes and suggestions until later, but with the Fighter class they are a main feature and it's kind of pointless to change the class without taking into account what feats need to be changed. It's like saying, "Let's hear paladin feedback/suggestions, but hold off on subjects like casting, LoH, or smite." Shall we at least discuss the "weapon focus/weapon spec" line?

2. In addition to feats, he should get Fighter Talents, Combat Styles (2 handed fighting, two-weapon fighter perks, weapon-and-shield style, and archery/thrown weapons) that make him significantly more powerful as he continues on.

Crusader of Logic pointed out the Tier system for evaluating the relative power of PC classes. I'll look for it and post it again if you think it's a good idea, it was a good, honest look at where they're at.

The idea is to get your classes balanced at "Tier 3" where they do one thing extremely well, and are useful outside of that one situation where their abilities shine. I don't expect fighters to fly on their own, but I do expect them to be able to adapt to a wide variety of battlefield threats and I expect fighters (and martial characters as a whole) to be up to the task of "getting in the enemies' face" at high levels without getting killed in 1 or 2 rounds... or being unable to engage the enemy in melee at all.

If your fighter isn't equivalent in power to a Warblade from Bo9S, then he will probably not be up to the task of fighting anything reasonably tough at mid to high levels. Ironically, the brute type enemies will usually kill him the fastest, outside of SoD effects that target the will save. This is due to the fact that enemy HD scales faster than fighter offensive dmg, and the fact that fighter ac isn't going to make other martial enemies miss on anything other than a 1 or 2 most of the time. Since the fighter's best tricks are in melee range, he is going to have to put himself in harm's way. Against several enemies (encounters are rarely one on one) the 3.p fighter is dead in one round, less than that if he didn't get initiative.

3. A lot of the "fighter only" feats, the way they're written, are precisely the kind of thing a fighter would not want to spend a feat on. The Weapon Focus line, for example. Weapon Specialization... simply not worth a feat. + 2 damage with one weapon is meaningless unless your under level 3 or 4.

The simple fact is that a cleric casting Divine Power and Enlarge or Divine might is now a better fighter than the fighter is. Plus he has full spellcasting. Or, a druid who uses some wildshape tricks. Compared to Enlarge or a similar spell, all the weapon spec feats are cantrips. Greater Weapon Spec is 12th level? Really? 6th level spells are available to casters at that level. Would you waste a 6th level spell slot on a cantrip (+2 to damage)? Especially if you couldn't swap it out for something better later on?

Consider that a spell like Bull's Strength is available at 3rd level, and adds +4 strength. That's +2 to hit AND dmg, and costs no feats, and is better than weapon focus plus weapon spec. Do you really think that weapon spec should be only worth a flat +2 to dmg?

Right now the "fighter only" tricks are not class-defining or even "that good." Why is weapon spec fighter-only anyway? Is it because of the old 2e rules?

I would like to present ideas on how to make the fighter better, in addition to the other martial classes. I've written up what I believe is a good, powerful variant class for the fighter. I am currently working on the barbarian and monk.

I suggest a new fix for the armor issue: Make heavier armor types (medium and heavy) provide an extra armor bonus to your ac relative to your BAB. For example, heavy armor grants an additional +3 to ac for every 4 points of BAB you have. At level 20, it's +15 ac. Medium armor can grant +2 per 4 BAB. This way, you get a scaling benefit that will favor the martial characters, and clerics who wear heavy armor (not that they need it anyway) can still gain something from it if they want. This mechanic (AC bonus based on level) is similar to the monk's AC bonus, so the "rule" is already in place in 3.P. Basing it on BAB instead of straight character level makes more sense; the more martial your training, the better you are with martial implements: weapons and armor.

Then add a new feat:

Armored Agility [General]
Prerequisite: Armor Proficiency in the appropriate armor type, BAB +1.
You've trained extensively in maneuvers while wearing heavier armor types. You can move as fast in medium or heavy armor as you can in light armor.
Effect: You get your full movement speed when wearing medium or heavy armor. You must be proficient in the appropriate armor type to get this effect.

Fighters and Paladins get this feat for free at 1st level.

Barbarians, Rangers, Clerics, and anyone else who wants full movement in armor can pay a feat for it. Now everyone who should wear heavy armor has a reason to wear it, it is hands down the best protection money can buy, and the better you are at fighting, the better off you are in good armor.

Looks good to me. Perhaps we could change the bonuses, but I like this general idea. Crusader of Logic, what would be a meaningful AC bonus?

What, in your opinion, is a good "target" AC for a character who's going to end up in melee levels 12 to 20?