Rick Rowles's page

Wow, this thread exploded the past couple days. Is everyone just suddenly really excited for Friday and onboard?

Nohwear: Ninja/Rogue would be pretty obvious. Fighter if you want to focus solely on beefing her straightforward combat stuff up. Brawler for the middle ground between that and martial arts.

BossBedlam" Not sure entirely what you mean by that, but if you mean for roleplaying purposes, you are definitely supposed to try and roleplay as the character.

Rynjin: I don't have Unchained yet but it's Paizo, so I'll say 'yes', and hope it either crops up on the SRD before long, or my roommate buys it soon.

I'm wary of letting people tweak and mess around too much with races. It gets way too pick-and-choosey.

thunderbeard: You could always eat the downside of 'not quite' with the magic. Obviously a pure summoner is sort of really difficult to do, but that's down to making the characters as accurate as you can but not 100%. A smattering of magic isn't going to ruin all the fun if that's what gets you closest.

gyrfalcon: I'll go with tunderbeard's mention of the feat. That way you get the synergy to pull your idea together, but not for free.

Edinoiz: There's a feat for Orcs that gives you Scent; I could waive that requirement. I don't know if Blindsight even scales in a way that makes 4 RP on top of Blindsense reasonable, so I think it might be a bit out of range for where we're starting in terms of power for Blindsight.

gyrfalcon: I'll probably still be kicking little things like starting gold around for a little while longer until I get to the making of the thread this weekend, but for now assume level 5, 25 point buy, with gestalt and the 1000 per RP conversion being the only non-standard bits. Everything stated to be allowed is very allowed.

Rynjin: It's sort of a Marvel redesign of Golarion. "Golarion analogue" would be the best way to put it, I guess. For all intents and purposes this is a medieval Marvel world using the Golarion setting as a base so my lazy ass can reuse all the maps and much of the existing fluff.

Advanced Template is not allowed, as I said earlier on this page. It's just cheese, and it's not being allowed for anything. Any other template is going to be allowable on a case-by-case basis where I feel a character genuinely needs to take it to get their concept off the ground. Advanced offers no abilities that actually make a character more interesting or help them get closer to fulfilling the concept in any way. I know they can get shaky, but for some characters they're a necessary evil, and the (hopefully enough of a) balancing factor is in GM approval. If someone can be built without templates then they will be. And any character 100% impossible without templates but who comes out to way too strong relative to everyone around them would probably be vetoed altogether.

BossBedlam: Custom races are not allowed, you can't buy the ability score powers, and I'm not allowing Savant Template because that is way too much Int on a double primary caster, which, for as smart as Black Panther is, is not so core to his concept that a starting Int of over 30 is going to fly. I said earlier in the thread that the emphasis should be on pragmatically adapting a character to a Pathfinder PC, not trying to make the build reflect comics canon.

Taenia: Oh, I forgot the spirit bit. Even still, Ghost is not even remotely worth the two levels it takes just for Magic Jar, a bunch of abilities you'll never use, and incorporeality when you're wearing your eidolon, so I think it might sort of be slipping then into the sort of thing that isn't too practical to run. If you're super set on it then I guess sure, but you're losing a lot of character efficacy for it. Contrary to the major concern in the thread right now, it actually comes out to a weaker character.

Edinoiz: The general idea is that you should err toward something that fits for the characters. So, Japanese influence on Swordsman is a pretty heavy departure from the character considering there is nothing Japanese about him in the comics, and him suddenly cropping up and being Tien is kind of eyebrow-raising.

And I feel 616 would be best to stick to for characters, just for consistency's sake.

Rynjin: It's not so much 'extra 10 RP' as 'you can buy RP at a rate of 1:1000 GP' and would lose all of your starting gold in the process.

I'd still rather not break the level requirements on that; teleport Spring Attack isn't quite vital enough to break rules for.

Philo: You won't be able to really do anything with it pre-6, but I could allow you to hold your level 5 feat and grab it when you level up to 6. Assuming we start at 5 anyway; I haven't worked all of the little details out yet.

Anoirtrou:I don't know if I'd allow Quicksilver, just because his movement would make designing encounters into a major pain in the ass. Pathfinder isn't built for those kinds of speeds and it could open up a lot of unforseen issues. Although if I did allow it, you wouldn't be allowed Haste as an at-will SLA. Expeditious Retreat, sure, but not Haste. Too much cheese with Haste's other goodies.

I don't see why it wouldn't be okay, but I'll go dig for the link myself later, once I'm home. Then I'll read it over and get back to you guys. But for now assume that it's fine to use anything from there unless I say otherwise, since it's just more Path of War stuff and I trust them not to put out something stupidly exploitable.

No this is definitely not making original characters. It's "play comic heroes in Pathfinder with the universe changed around to suit them".

If the playtest document is publicly viewable then sure. Otherwise, I won't be able to look at the stuff until it goes on d20pfsrd and if I can't see it, I can't approve or deny it. I will say however that the Advanced Template is not allowed due to not actually providing any abilities that help you pull off one specific character or another. Who do you mean by "merciful swordsman", anyway?

The Dragon: That's fair. I guess if you want the ability to regenerate but not necessarily the inherent invincibility of his regen then it would work out pretty well. Especially if you pair it with something like Barbarian to where he can soak a lot of damage and burn through as much as he can with DR.

Taenia: The only thing from Ghost that really looks needed is the Magic Jar-like effect, but with Synthesist you'd just be wearing your eidolon around instead of jumping into it. That way, you can take Sorc without dropping levels for the template, which offers a bunch of other abilities that don't make much sense with the character's powers anyway.

I haven't actually read any tech stuff due to never thinking much about Iron Gods, but I don't think there's too many heroes who'd really get much use of it anyway so probably not. It all seems much more like stuff to give an invading alien race (cough cough). I guess if someone asks specifically for something they'd need to pull a character off, I'd think about.

For Hawkeye, Archer (Fighter)/Grenadier (Alchemist) remains probably the most accurate of the bunch for trick arrows and ranged combat maneuvers. Or at least a Spell-Less Ranger or Skirmisher who takes companions as their bond and stuff. Lot of different ways to go about that. Actually, Ranged Tactics Toolbox has ranged trip and disarm feats so Archer isn't even that necessary if you don't want much to do with the other stuff.

Captain America/Andoran should definitely have a lot of unarmed focus, since that's a big thing for him. I'd probably go through 20 in something shield-focused--probably Shield Champion personally, for the unarmed goodies--and then the other half I'd spread out into dips to get everything else he needs rolling. A couple levels in Holy Tactician or normal Paladin certainly wouldn't hurt for getting his leadership abilities.

For healing, that again just comes down to the whole "adapt your character for gameplay, not gameplay for your character". Wolverine's functional immortality he has in the comics where he can regenerate from a single molecule given enough time is just not feasible. Unfortunately Pathfinder has such a steep cost for automatic health recovery and it tops off relative to damage pretty fast, so Wolverone/Deadpool/X-23 are not exactly the best characters to port over and play if that's the main angle you want to run. And I'll probably keep Deadpool banned under the same logic honestly. I like my supers on the bright side but he'd screw with tone too much.

It would probably be easier to just go with Synthesist Summoner, which is so much simpler.

Oh wow, I missed that last bit. That honestly does not look like four levels worth by any stretch; a Wolverine would likely involve just sinking all their starting cash into buying those through one thing or another.

On the note of 'buying' abilities, I've been working on trying to feel out my algorithm, and I think I have come to the conclusion that it will go on a ratio of 1 RP per 1,000 GP spent. The reasoning for this is that the 2 to a specific ability score abilities cost 4 RP. +2 Headbands and Belts cost 4,000. Those abilities will of course be off the table for selection, and I am going to be very judicious in making sure the buying of race builder abilities is used without cheese.

Getting custom magic items for at-will spells is still being ironed out cost-wise, but likewise it will be heavily moderated. For example, a Stormborn Sorcerer Storm can buy something to get at-will Fly (although nerfed for movespeed purposes), but can't get at-will Lightning Bolt through the same means. Very case-by-case to try and keep these systems from being too exploitable.

Wow, that template actually works out for Wolverine pretty well. Might be something in Pathfinder that I can't think of that'd also do the trick, but I like it.

Okay, been off doing some thinnking between bits of exam prep, and come to a few decisions to help in character choosing so people can kick things around.
-The power cieling will definitely cover 'cosmic' level characters right off the bat. Silver Surfer and the like are immediately banned, no questions asked. No hard reality warpers like Franklin Richards, but lesser-tier warpers like Scarlet Witch are fine.
-Any Marvel characters are game as long as they have spent at least some time as a hero. How much is sort of case-by-case for the more ambiguous and allegiance-changing, depending on if I have plans for them or see them as too villainous for it to work.
-The modified banlist from the original post is as follows: Doctor Strange, Reed Richards, Ghost Rider, Hulk, Jean Grey, Nick Fury, Professor X, Red Hulk, and The Punisher.
-Which means I'm allowing FF but not Reed because he has plot stuff to do.

My current plan for doling out powers is going to be a higher cap of starting gold and/or the ability to buy magic "items" at a potentially discounted rate. Certain abilities from the race builder can be bought at a cost I still need to give a test run for, but which I think might be the best way to do it. This lets heroes centered around tech or powers that are supported by normal Pathfinder to still get some edge.

Taenia: I don't know if someone built around size changing would be too great. It's not a power with great use by game mechanics, and it'd be really difficult to execute for something with not great returns.

Ashe: Not a fan of Godlings, sorry.

gyrfalcon: I've still been working stuff out and juggling all the madness of exams creeping up on me. I'm thinking maybe I'll open up shop after exams are done, both so there's a lot more people hitting summer and potentially free, and because that way I ride off any potentially higher interest in the game brought on by Avengers next week. So tentatively, May 2nd I should hopefully have things more organized, and can be around here in the meantime helping to spit out ideas.

Fantastic Four I'm a little more on the fence about and could probably go either way on them, depending on interest in playing as one of them.

Hulk is probably going to remain locked. There's a lot of clear logic in making him an NPC and I think I might want to continue along that in some way of my own.

I think the balancing of power for the most part would come from relative levels. Any notable superhero team is a pretty eclectic mix of power levels, but we have the good fortune here of letting everyone sort of brought down to rough equivalency through character level. For instance, Daredevil would probably have a Monk half and Thor might have a Cleric half. While Cleric is a stronger all-around class than Monk is, they're still of equal character level and especially at lower level aren't too far apart that they may as well not be in the same party. In the comics their presence on a team is only justified by plot, but in gameplay terms the field is a little more even. Continuing to think on this while on the bus and stuff all of yesterday, I think aside from blocking certain characters for plot reasons I'm not going to put any limitations, entirely because gameplay offers something a lot more balancing than comics' plot-driven, arbitrary numbers.

For the matter of bloodline, I feel that would likely come down to a matter of refluffing on an individual basis. Especially in the cases of Mutants and Inhumans where powers can vary so wildly. A common flavour origin between their "lineages", but not anything concrete in terms of gameplay.

I didn't know Card Caster was even a thing, but on review, yes, that would fit. In fact, it's even compatible with Staff Magus. You'd be unable to pump Arcane Pool points into the staff, but you'd still end up versatile in your combat options and with some built-in melee capability to cover your ranged ass. Pair that with Rogue/Arcane Trickster so you can delcare impromptu ranged Sneak Attacks, and the build would actually turn out pretty interesting.

gyrfalcon: I think the big issue is that starting at a mid-to-high single digit level, there won't necessarily be enough gold to really throw around too much, and I don't want to start tossing class level imbalances around because while I know the system well, I don't trust myself to know it well enough for that to come out functional. I think one of the less elegant but more stury solutions would be your idea of just limiting yourself to on-topic extracts. Because custom magic items would quickly eclipse any reasonable range I could probably give on a higher starting gold. Anything that goes outside the normal system should be stuff that players can't really find easily through classes, like dependable at-will flight and certain natural attacks. Which is one of the reasons I'm checking interest; it lets me feel out how I'll pull this off instead of opening half-cocked recruitment.

Calinthas: I'm on the fence about a few of the characters they banned. A lot of them make sense but I'm not personally keyed into their plans for it. For now I'd say don't, but if I open her up later then feel free.

Occult Adventures playtest is on the table so Kineticist might be worth looking into. Then, depending on if you want to focus more on his unarmed or his leadership abilities. Brawler could work with the former, or an unarmed Paladin for both.

thunderbeard: It will use a modified Golarion. I want the high fantasy feel that 1602 lacks as a historical setting, am too lazy to make my own universe, and it's easier to adapt characters to a setting out there and easy to find information on.

Baru: Neat ideas, but off the top of my head I'd say Gambit would probably dip into Arcane Trickster.

Flora: If you think you can pull off Squirrel Girl then sure, go for it. For mutant lore, I think it will be a lot like the original idea maker's: they exist as a weird "other" for powers that isn't typed in their fluff as divine or arcane magic thus making them feared by people nonetheless, just on a bit of a smaller and easier to hide scale. Once I have my own adaptations to the setting written down I will explain it in a little more detail.

thunderbeard:
-If I ever feel something becomes "too strong", rule zero kicks in and I bring things a little closer to the ground. The main reasoning for Path of War is to open up different options for characters who want to be punchier; I just got done binging Netflix Daredevil, which was one of the main reasons for me getting into the idea.

-Templates will definitely be considered but it will be with a narrow pool and a level limit much lower than the starting level, which will also be low at the start. And one of the things I really liked in making the idea work was being willing to reflavour everything to help the mechanics fit the character so that will definitely be around.

-That is definitely something I am going to do. I see it as being sort of like a more magic version of Marvel 1602 in some ways. Everybody is going to have to adapt their characters to the setting and will be judged on how well they can fantasy up the origin story.

-I am actually really unsold on the race building system the old DM used. I agree there has to be some way to get the needed abilities onto the heroes but I think I'll do something different there. At the very least, introduce some sort of trade-off for taking those. Maybe a higher starting gold and have people buy certain abilities made permanent. Or allow it in a very limited and scrutinized way but then introduce some kind of incentive to not use it that will reward players so they don't see points and figure they might as well cheese since it's there.

-I haven't considered encounter design yet since this is in the early stages, so thanks for the suggestions! I will definitely be trying to balance how comic books usually handle fights with how Pathfinder does. Goon stomps will still be a thing, but even if it isn't quite how it's portrayed, I think any villain with a "name" should pose at least some kind of challenge to a party.

Gavmania: I don't know if benchmarks will really help too much, especially when the major NPC heroes I have in mind are all much higher in level. This will be starting at mid-level (probably 5 like the original game so that I don't have to spend an entire day making a character to fight), and if I feel someone has gone way too far, I'll tell them they have and should consider rebuilding.

Also, you don't need to necessary build a character to reflect at a low level what their maximum potential is. Big heroes at low levels can gradually come into their powers and play like normal and well-balanced characters. Someone like Hulk, for instance, should actually have a really varied stat spread. High Strength obviously, but also a lot of Constitution, dexterity to represent his speed and jumping ability, Int because Banner is a genius, and some Wisdom to bump his will save, since Hulk is resistant to mind control. Mind you, Hulk is probably off the table.

But I think it's important to note that having a well-made character who looks like they fit is more important than building solely for "accuracy". I want characters fun to run games with and who build for practicality around their concepts, if that makes sense.

gyrfalcon:
(A) There is a lot of work involved in trying to help everyone figure out their builds, but obviously something this theory-heavy means a lot of participation in the thread to help throw out ideas. I hope that the close involvement will help with perspective and getting an eye for how balance is proceeding.
(B) I am definitely putting in a higher limit. "No cosmic" was a good rule. But I don't want to get too restrictive (I'll explain on D).
(C) It's hard to figure out what could be equivalent to something as major as spells, but it could be worth figuring out. As I explained up with Gavmania, practicality and building a functional and well-rounded character instead of "this character his super strength so I have dumped everythig else".
(D) This is the one I'm most likely going with. The main benefit to gameplay is that the parity is not as immediately terrible as it is in the comics (wizards might be more versatile than martials, but it's hardly as bad), and I can tailor encounters in ways that greatly benefit characters who might not have the most immediate use. In your example, something where Black Widow's skills are much more valuable to a mission than Iron Man artillerying the whole place up. But the core reason for going with this is that it leaves everyone with the choice; do you love a lower-tier character enough to accept maybe not being a walking gestalt god for the chance to roleplay them and punch stuff? To me, the love of a character or the "I think this would be really fun to play" is more important than "This is will be really strong and wreck s~*#". This is the way of doing it I feel opens the most possibilities up and lets people really go with what they want.

Constant player questions are not a problem for me. I welcome them actually. Otherwise everything becomes cookie cutter and people stick to the straightforward-looking ideas and never get into the fun stuff.

motteditor: There are some archetypes for other classes that could make for some fun archery stuff. Archer Fighter lets you do combat maneuvers with your arrows, and Grenadier Alchemist lets you put things on ammunition to basically create trick arrows. But that depends more on how much mileage you feel like you can get out of "core archery plus stuff".

The one I linked was a reboot using only Marvel that he posted a few months later, so sort of the same thing but not quite.

I'm pretty set on Marvel honestly. Not a big DC fan atm.

I was looking for builds for Marvel heroes online that I could use in games when I came across a thread on this forum where someone began recruitment for a game under gestalt rules and a Marvel-ization of Golarion. He closed the thread and said he'd come back once he straighened out some stuff but he never did so I hope he won't mind if I try to steal his idea out from under him.

I probably won't use the exact same build rules and setting changes he had in mind but there is a lot of cool stuff in the ideas he wrote down so I might try to adapt them to my own stuff. But first I want to see if there is interest in running this sort of stuff. Gestalt will definitely happen and I'll allow Psionics and Path of War so that people can more accurately build stuff they want, while other 3PP stuff we'll see as it comes up. Feel free to show your interest if you have any and vent ideas for how you would build characters you're into and we'll see if there's enough to make a real thread out of it.

This is a new profile because I have never been to these forums before today but for those who have worries about experience, I am a long-time PBP player and DM, and I'm on almost four years of Pathfinder love. I know my way around forums and the rules just fine.

Edit: Whoops I shoulda posted the original thread to give you an idea of what inspired me. Here it is! I'll change a bunch but it does show what I want to stay at least a little true to.