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![]() Orthos wrote: I haven't looked at your log as it popped up an adult warning and I'm at work. (If it's just language I'm fine with it, but nudity or gore [or descriptions of such] I'd prefer to avoid.) So just fair warning on that. Ah! It's safe for work. It's a google site with the pre-constructed d20pfsrd template...which recommends adding that content warning to be safe rather than sorry. Perhaps I can remove that feature. Thanks [edit: done]. ...that's...really good stuff, Orthos! Yes, a title will grant only that it's a female, that she's likely fey. It also leaves open 'motive,' which I could fill in over time while the PCs speculate wildly. Thank you! ![]()
![]() My group has acquired the magic ring from the final large monster of Rivers Run Red. They want to cast Legend Lore on said ring. This is an opportunity, I think, to foreshadow some of the latter books' characters that many GMs have noted (on podcasts and in the forums) seem tacked on. The book provides: Spoiler:
Scrying and similar effects cause the ring of bestial friendship to detonate (in essence) and reveal nothing. I have provided this much on the ring, not much, really. So, if you had your druthers, how would you handle legend lore on the ring? My ideas: Spoiler:
Reveal the name of the creator? It is ultimately a meaningless word in and of itself, but I doubt that the PCs would then just let that name go. The owlbear sacked their city: I'd be ticked and want to find out more, thus distracting from Varnhold. Go technical? Steer them towards the fey, provide enough to know that a powerful otherworldly creature created it to cause havoc upon the River Kingdoms, but no names, and then blow the ring up. Go artsy? Give them images/emotions that they could try to decipher, but not reveal any words at all, and then blow the ring up.
Something else, something I'm missing, or a different approach, would be appreciated. ![]()
![]() Scott Betts wrote:
Don't need to, since I never suggested that it was impossible, only that your example was not one of these, and therefore not evidence of Insane! Fear! Mongering! nor a good-faith justification for the character flaws dressed up as ideals that you express. You appear (now) to want to argue your own psychodrama, with heroes and villains...it sounds exciting, at least superficially. I apparently missed the headlines at TMZ (you link to TMZ and then ask me where I get my news from?), at Gawker, at HuffPo's forum, and WaPo opinions. So, um, yeah, missed it. But, to restate what I wrote, if a 14 year old can Make Headlines at the above, imagine how easy it be to find senators, entire associations, making the charge, which is what you wrote, in order to prove the prior assertions to justify your prior slurs. Might I suggest the dog-whistle assertion after this. It would be the predictable ad-hoc assertion to shore up the other assertions, to maintain the previous assertions, to justify the prior call to incivility. Make it appear that it's in a special code that conservatives (and you) hear. One thing, though. I would warn you not to drink your own Kool-Aid. I mean, wild accusations aside, don't actually believe it or you'll make foolish choices based on spectral input and end up being the guy muttering at fruit at the grocery store. Seriously, if you look at people as categories (notably as self-serving categories), you'll not only miss some special moments in life, but you'll make some big mistakes, too. Which makes me think of the video you linked to of that boy. It's sad to see this kid struggle, not to put together a coherent argument but to construct any sentence whatsoever. Well, if history is any indicator, people change over time. Maybe he'll hold the same opinions at 40 than he did at 14, but I doubt it, and that's good news, too. ![]()
![]() Scott Betts wrote: Since you seem unable to let it go (and because you seem to think that it wins you all the points), let's take a look at this. Thanks for responding. It was an interesting explanation you made, and was submitted as evidence to your assertion that the 'evil' conservatives manipulated their brethren...by saying their kids would become gay. ...and to think I found that absurd. If I 'win,' can I get Electronic Battleship, by Milton Bradley? Never had that. Quote: Actually, it doesn't show up on the internet very much, either way. A few similar searches turn up pages containing a lot of those terms, but as a coherent argument, it's rarely voiced online (except in rambling forum screeds). Thank you for noting that rather salient point. Might I suggest that it doesn't show up on conservative sites (or practically any sites at all) because it isn't a compelling argument, and it isn't a common argument.Therefore, it is not an "example" that the evil conservatives are manipulating the dumb base with it, and that their base loves to be manipulated, and that there is no point in civility, because conservatives don't respond to civility, seeing it as weakness, and it would be more helpful to approach them like one would the Ku Klux Klan. Yes, you've made one hulluva string of assertions, you nut you *cheek pinch* Quote: Where it is voiced is on talk radio, and in conversations with those who actually believe it. Ah...well, I cannot capture 'conversations,' so maybe the board game is yours. I do recall that talk radio has several committed watchdogs whose purpose is to publicize such things (on media channels such as the internet). I'll get back to that... Quote: LGBT rights groups didn't just make up the idea that some people actually thought gay people would turn their children gay. Well, I didn't say they did. I did say that it wasn't an argument that conservatives would likely make to whip up their base. I didn't buy what you were selling, the premise or the conclusion. I did suspect that if someone on earth did say such a thing (such as this 14-year old boy that you link to), it could be used as a substitute for argument by their opponents, and could be used to justify all sorts of wild accusations (see above). Quote: That was something crazy conservatives actually believed (and many still do!). Oy vey. Quote: Yes, now it's probably used more often as an example of exactly how insane those people sound, or to lampoon their thought process, but you seem to want to pretend that no one actually believes it! So yes, it's more likely that the LGBT-rights crowd would "latch onto" a claim like "Gay people want to turn our kids gay!" because it's just that insane. Unfortunately, it's also something that some anti-LGBT groups actually believe. You might remember this kid, who made headlines for a) being a 14 year-old conservative talk show host, and b) for blaming Obama for turning kids gay. (Unfortunately, merely blaming Obama for turning kids gay doesn't make national headlines - it's just too run-of-the-mill.) Now, mind you, Obama isn't gay himself. But does, "The President is turning our children gay!" sound any less insane and paranoid to you than, "Gay people are turning our children gay!"? Or... I don't remember it, honestly. I mean, why would I? There were no headlines, really (or else they would be on the internet). Quote: Talk show hosts, elected representatives, and political advocacy groups - these are the heads of the anti-gay movement, and plenty of them have tried to push the "Gay people want to turn our kids gay!" message over the past decade. Who do you think they're talking to, exactly, if not the conservative base? Strange, if, over 10 years, talk radio hosts, elected representatives, and advocacy groups were pushing that argument (or even mentioning it as insightful), it would be all over the internet. I mean, not just from 'liberal' sites, but from libertarian and conservative and frankly non-aligned sites. It would be free entertainment! Agree? Honestly, I think it's wishful thinking. And what a strange thing to wish for. I mean, it's good news that it isn't being used, over the last decade, by any said groups. Let's not hemorrhage over good news. Quote: So go ahead. Tell me that the gay rights movement manufactured that particular pile of crap. No need. I'll let the 14-year old speak for himself (go to 1 minute in), and people can independently determine whether he (perhaps, imagine an adult saying the same thing) is compelling, and then determine whether he is one of the aforementioned conservatives successfully manipulating his base. I think you've done well demolishing an argument here, it's just a matter of which one. ![]()
![]() Scott Betts wrote:
Nyoooo...I did not. I said I read the first published article, questioned its limitations (which I explained), noted the article's own caveat, and then questioned your inference from it. It did not make me uncomfortable; it made me laugh, like when reading the science of phrenology (perhaps, a too-loud laugh with tears of salty terror pouring from my blinkered--yet shockingly beautiful--eyes). Your response was an appeal to authority. I suggested you question authority (my response ostensibly makes me a conservative: which you define as someone who would embrace the status quo, which speaks to the quality of your definitions). The assertion referred to...your example of how the 'evil' conservatives appeal to their 'dumb' (and fearful?) conservative counterparts. It was that conservatives have been warning that:
Quote: For example: "Gay people want to turn our children gay," I asked you to back that up, by asking: Quote: Who is more likely to latch onto that assertion, pro- or con-? Who would deploy it to bolster their 'side?' Who has deployed this sort of nonsense here? What would a Google search show? Would a sample size of the internet yield this 'conservative argument' as a typical SEO'd argument by conservatives to their easily-manipulated base, and their base repeating it? Which you still haven't done. And won't. 'Cause you can't. Quote: But it sounded like BS (actually it sounded like "wishful thinking"), which should be red-flag, even if one is sympathetic. Quote: What part of it sounded like BS, and why? The part I responded to, quoting you, then explained why. But a summary of it is: because it was incandescently sloppy and transparently self-serving, and I should hope that such sloppy methods don't creep into structural systems because I like things not to fall over. Quote: So I think it would be helpful for you to examine why you saw this as BS. It wasn't, obviously. Was it because it said something that made you uncomfortable, rather than something that struck you as unlikely? Because, let's be honest, a link between conservatism and fear shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. And if it made you uncomfortable, [i]why is that? What are you concerned that it says about you and your beliefs? Does it make you question how many of your beliefs are grounded in rational thought versus how many are motivated by easily manipulated fear? I don't really want to hear your answers to these (and, besides, I can guess at what they'd be if you typed them out now); I'm more... I'm more than happy leave it up to anyone interested (undoubtedly millions, or perhaps a handful of really bored people) to read my direct responses to you and let them determine whether these are an example of fear or a disturbing lack of introspection or knowledge of the human character (well, I am arguing on the internet...). I did make one big assertion (not addressed other than to declare it uncivil) that I think is salient:
Quote: I couldn't tell you the differences between dubious categories of people by vision, ideals, or otherwise with a sample size of 10,000 much less half a busload. I couldn't tell you who is better or worse by category. It is vain and arrogant (something aptly demonstrated above) to presume you have that ability.
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![]() Stuffy Grammarian wrote:
Dang! No love, here. Although I appreciate the high standard. I shall endeavor to do better. ...waitasecond...I didn't call myself a conservative... ![]()
![]() Irontruth wrote:
Well, to be fair, it was an assertion by Scott--one of many, that wasn't backed up, just sort of "known," perhaps incorrectly called "common sense." But it sounded like BS (actually it sounded like "wishful thinking"), which should be red-flag, even if one is sympathetic. I questioned it's validity, with smarminess lathered in smugitude sauce (which I hope tastes like raspberries). And sure, I did the search (after all, what if he was correct?). But he wasn't. So, I asked him a series of questions about his assertion, allowing him to find this argument that supports his conclusion (suggesting the internet as a good place to use to find it...), suspecting that he couldn't pull it off. Instead of answering, he avoided it, repeatedly. Which makes sense, really. Am I to believe that you didn't realize all this? ![]()
![]() Scott Betts wrote:
No it isn't. Run the samples multiple times, with higher and lower samples, of different ages, in different regions, control for others overhearing your questions, control for outliers ("yeah, screw private property, *belch*!"), and consider that drunk people can BE outliers (a serious limitation that is avoided in the articles stated limitations). That is, it is more than possible and reasonable that his results are useless in the study as written. All it shows is that 38 similar age drunk people resulted in an answer. No serious statistician would take this, and similar scholarly work, as more than sampling bias with appeals to authority attached at the end. Scott Betts wrote: One 38-person study finding significance isn't enough to base consensus on. Sure isn't. Scott Betts wrote: A body of similar studies all reaching similar conclusions using independent methods, however, is. If only such a body of research existed, and had been linked to recently in this thread! Awesome. Like I said, I have more that I could provide you to help you in this quest. And if I take those apart too, then, there are more, and more. Question: What were the issues you found with them? Any of them? Have you simply accepted them? They are, after all, peer-reviewed. Scott Betts wrote: Also, "They're drunks!" isn't exactly a damning criticism when the point of that study was to use alcohol as a means of disrupting thought. I mean, it would be more damning if they weren't inebriated! It is if you are attempting to classify the ideology of vast swaths of people from Earth by having 38 college kids from NE drink liquor until they are plowed (at unidentified levels) and then record their answers in order to reach a conclusion that aligns with the thesis. It is a particularly damning criticism. And, incidentally, the alcohol itself can affect each participant's mental functions differently, and by amount (a variable not known in the study)...ah, never mind.Scott Betts wrote: I went out of my way to present those studies in a way that didn't paint conservatives in a overtly negative way (though, let's be honest, those findings make that really tempting) because the point wasn't to make conservatives feel bad but rather to maybe give them a moment's pause to take a look at where they get their information from and who they choose to listen to. Actually, you went out of your way to find studies that attempted to prove that conservatives are easily manipulated by other, evil conservatives, and that the former love to be manipulated due to their differences in thinking, etc, etc. What you actually delivered was pretty silly, your conclusions transparently self-serving (you inferred from the above sources' banal--and dubious--conclusion to bolster your prior assertions). And then you suggested I look past my ideological bias, and finally, alas, lamented my failings. As proof of my failings, you noted that I disagreed with the findings, which Cannot Be. I will soldier on, however, despite my crippling faith-based dogma and scripture waving. As an aside, you didn't answer my questions. I've attempted to address yours as best I could. Could you go back and answer them, please? Start with: "Gay people want to turn our children gay." Who is more likely to latch onto that assertion, pro- or con-? Who would deploy it to bolster their 'side?' Who has deployed this sort of nonsense here? What would a Google search show? Would a sample size of the internet yield this 'conservative argument' as a typical SEO'd argument by conservatives to their easily-manipulated base, and their base repeating it? ![]()
![]() Scott Betts wrote:
Scott Betts wrote: Again, approach this from the standpoint of trying to persuade the Klan with civility. I'm not arguing against civility. Civility is, in most things, essential. But it has largely outlived its usefulness here. Scott Betts wrote: My advice: If you want us to stop calling the things conservatives do "evil", stop doing evil things. Scott Betts wrote: As for the personal attacks, take them elsewhere. I don't much care for them, and calling someone "vain" for providing you with information that contradicts what you believe to be true is really unflattering behavior. Well said, sir. Wait, what? Ah, entitlement.Did me calling you vain offend you? Hey, don't sweat it, lot's of people probably do, and frankly who cares. Take the good with the bad, enjoy life. Say what you want (as above), but don't get too bent if someone calls you out. Scott Betts wrote:
I can show you more studies that you may like to use. Peer-reviewed even. Just as funny as this one. You didn't really address the issue of 38 drunk undergrads in a bar as a useful sampling. You cling to peer review, like a ward, like waving a cross at heretic. It was published in a journal! A journalllll!!! That being said, I didn't go much further in the other sampling issues and statistical limitations and frankly the subsequent methodological failings and question selection because there was no real need. As far as my analysis, I thought I made clear that I looked through the lens of p-values on sample size and the failure to address limitations on a sample of 38 drunks! But I will point out that the authors unintentionally 'prove' that 38 college age drunks have more personal responsibility (a listed 'conservative value') than a liberal. Not that I buy that for a second. Seriously. Do you? ![]()
![]() Scott Betts wrote:
One of the remarkable things about the links (all from one site) is its phrenological approach. The first attempt, for example, is to try to define conservatives and liberals en masse, then use a sample size of 85, 38, and 36 for their test. No wonder the 'scholarly literature's' conclusion is a banality: Motivational factors are crucial determinants of ideology, aiding or correcting initial responses depending on one’s goals, beliefs, and values. But you manage to conclude something else, something more self-congratulatory (which, looking back at your other posts, suggests you are looking for license to hold the beliefs that you hold): ...which means that half-truths or outright falsehoods are more likely to be found persuasive. Funny, I don't find you persuasive at all. Continuing with your conclusion, I enjoyed this relevant caveat for Study 2: ...and so our hypothesis is largely silent on the relationship between deliberate thought and liberalism. We made no firm predictions about the effect of load on liberalism other than to expect a pattern distinct from the effects of load on conservatism, which would indicate that load’s effect is not due to acquiescence or other nuisance processes. Harrowing stuff. Which, I would like to reiterate, they derive from 38 participants, all undergrads at a university. They do not give an age range, but since it was a intro PSY course I'd wager the sample was 19-20 year old PSY majors and college kids who don't know what they want to do yet. Wow...based on your assertions, would it be fair to call you the conservative* after your linking to this paper?
...or did you think I wouldn't read the article. That a simple appeal to authority would work?
Look, I can understand the article's appeal to vanity and self-congratulation (which is, incidentally, a great way to manipulate someone). Why, it would provide license to certain sorts of people, those with a need to believe themselves categorically superior to others--but without the requisite ability to produce superior results--to measure by self-regard, either by exulting themselves or demonizing others. It's taking a character flaw and making it a noble ideology. Should I go on? Sure. Let's take your first example of devious conservative manipulation, your example: "Gay people want to turn our children gay" Who is more likely to latch onto that assertion, pro- or con-? Who would deploy it to bolster their 'side?' Who has deployed this sort of nonsense here? What would a Google search show? Would a sample size of the internet yield this 'conservative argument' as a typical SEO'd argument by conservatives to their easily-manipulated base, and their base repeating it? I couldn't tell you the differences between dubious categories of people by vision, ideals, or otherwise with a sample size of 10,000 much less half a busload. I couldn't tell you who is better or worse by category (sometimes I'm not equal to myself on a given day, and I'm a category of one). It is vain and arrogant (something aptly demonstrated above) to presume you have that ability. *fair to whom, would be the best answer ![]()
![]() Scott Betts wrote:
1. I don't think anyone really saw you as serious. But that doesn't mean what you say here is true. Honestly, come clean; don't attempt the clown nose on/clown nose off shtick. 2. So the evil ones are manipulating the slow ones, who love being manipulated. Compelling argument, there. 3. As we see here. And yet, liberal (somehow!) has come to be seen in a negative light. Must be marketing, nothing more. After all, you're awesome! ![]()
![]() John Woodford wrote:
Yes, 2nd-string, cartoon fanatics do sound awfully similar in their lunatic denunciations. Was that the point you were trying to make?![]()
![]() Kthulhu wrote:
Heretic!!!1!! ![]()
![]() Jason Nelson wrote:
Thanks for the tip, Jason. And while we are me-tooing, might as well throw my hat in: email: jeffrey_rank (at) yahoo (dot) com ![]()
![]() Owly wrote:
This thread also validates the need to carry torches. ![]()
![]() Mosaic wrote:
I like this idea. I stuck mostly to Varn and his team, as the party would likely journey through Nivatka's Crossing from Restov. It gives the impression of a Bigger Mission that you can tie in later in Book 3. 1. a simple ruin, a burned out coaching inn perhaps, suggesting either bandit activity or a rather harsh punishment for some would be Rostlandic partisans (i.e. a posted note saying "for the crime of harboring separatists, by the Regent of blah, blah...) and everyone else who happened to be in the inn at the time. It informs/legitimizes the mission and could even make them a little nervous about their role. 2. there is a fort on the Shrike (can't recall the name but it is also in Book 3). Inform them (via their patron/benefactor) not to stop there, that they must sneak by it as there could be spies reporting back to the Crown. Sneaking by should be very easy. PCs are paranoid by design. Making their NPC friends paranoid as well tends to freak them out, in my experience. 3. Don't go overboard! The real key is getting to Oleg's. |