I am currently level 15 and I want to apply more buffs and debuffs. I currently am providing my barbarian companion a +3 status bonus to attack rolls via Fortissimo, I am also providing an Aid to one of his attacks for +4 circumstance bonus as a reaction. I cast Tempest of Shades on enemies for sometimes a Frightened 3 effect (failure) while our barbarian often flanks with our sword and board Fighter to get the off guard bonus. But I am not satisfied, can I provide more buffs? Vs bosses I do cast True Target for him to give him that reroll with the +4 circumstance bonus but I want more. Please help how I can turn him into more of an indestructible walking mound of muscle.
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That's ... if I'm calculating correctly ... a 12 point swing in favor of your ally. You can literally turn a miss into a crit with that.
If that isn't satisfying... I'm not sure what else is going to be.
Yes +12 is correct. But I'm not satisfied, can I do more?
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You could use Implement of Destruction (6th) on your friend's weapon, making it deal an additional 4d6 persistent damage on a hit for a minute.
You can also cast Seal Fate to give to the target weakness to whatever type of damage your friend is doing.
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I'm not going to bother with general damage buffs and debuffs. They're a pain to look up, and Barbarian is doing fine. I'm also not going to bother with any debuffs that don't make the Barbarian look better- slowing an enemy down doesn't make the Barbarian more accurate against them, for instance.
Status, circumstance, item. Bonus, penalty.
- Status bonus, covered.
- Status penalty, covered.
- Circumstance bonus, covered.
Circumstance penalty, covered.
- Item bonus, covered by expected equipment. You can push that further by taking Alchemist dedication and providing a mutagen for an extra +1 at some stiff penalties.
- Item penalty, this is what you're missing. Spells don't generally give item bonuses or penalties, so you need something that modifies an enemy's gear. Shoddy items give a -2 penalty to either attack or AC depending on their function, and Curse of Lost Time applies an unlimited duration curse to an item that makes it shoddy. You'll probably want Reach Spell to cast that from further back than melee, though.
- Resistance: Resist Energy, Death Ward, Energy Aegis. From off-list, Mountain's Resilience.
- Weakness: See above.
- Flat checks: Cast Blur or heightened Invisibility on them, as well as True Target to negate miss chance against an enemy.
- Quickened: Haste
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The Total Package wrote: Yes +12 is correct. But I'm not satisfied, can I do more? I think you are playing the wrong game. Pathfinder2e is a storytelling game.
Have you noticed that all of the popular stories told in books and movies involve the main characters being significantly challenged? The Hobbit: The party is TPK'd by their first encounter - a group of mountain trolls. They have to be rescued by the overpowered GMPC. Later they have to run from a den of goblins, are nearly TPK'd by a nest of spiders, and a group of wolves (where they have to be rescued by GM Fiat again), and fail their initial social encounter with the town at the base of the mountain. They aren't even the ones who defeat the final boss. It dies off-screen to an NPC.
And that is only one example.
The reason for that is that without challenge, stories are not interesting. You know the end of the story from the very beginning when the main characters are introduced as being so awesomely powerful in every aspect that no enemy can stand against them. After a couple of scenes of enemies showing up and getting effortlessly stomped, it becomes boring to read or watch. "Oh look, another enemy showed up." *yawn* "Yup, the heroes defeated that one too."
So if your Bard can buff your ally Barbarian to the point where they crit on a 2 and still hit on a 1 after applying the nat-1 degree of success downgrade rule... where is the challenge to the encounter?
Is that really going to be an interesting story to tell?
If you are wanting a game where you eventually build unstoppable killing machines, maybe try something like a deck building game. Something where the point isn't to tell an interesting story - the entire point of the game is to build a winning stat block.
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Dispel magic and Blindness are likely to help.
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Finoan wrote: The Total Package wrote: Yes +12 is correct. But I'm not satisfied, can I do more? I think you are playing the wrong game. Pathfinder2e is a storytelling game.
Oh I think its a bit tongue in cheek. Or hypothetical/white room. OP listed 6 actions worth of stuff they're doing lol.
So I think it's interesting to see what other options the community comes up with, but that's what they'll be - options. Not additional stacks, because there aren't enough actions in a round to stack much more. And no smart foes are going to sit there and let you cast out round after round of 1-minute duration buffs and then jump them.
But it does bring up the humorous thought. Party is outside bossmonster's door, the bard fervently casting all their 1-minute duration buffs. Then in a 'round 0' flash the fighter slams open the door while the bard casts Tempest of Shades so that the first round of actual combat they can combo that with their 1A aid + 1A composition + 1A True Target, and the party finds...a note. "Spellcasting is loud. I heard you. Be back in 90 seconds when you're completely out of mojo."
Frankly, the whole thing sounds a bit like one of Ravingdork's hypotheticals.
Besides- getting enough turns worth of spells means that you can play a character who tips the scales a little further every single round- you can get an interesting enough character out of that idea.
Easl wrote:
But it does bring up the humorous thought. Party is outside bossmonster's door, the bard fervently casting all their 1-minute duration buffs. Then in a 'round 0' flash the fighter slams open the door while the bard casts Tempest of Shades so that the first round of actual combat they can combo that with their 1A aid + 1A composition + 1A True Target, and the party finds...a note. "Spellcasting is loud. I heard you. Be back in 90 seconds when you're completely out of mojo."
Frankly, the whole thing sounds a bit like one of Ravingdork's hypotheticals.
Some people do play that way, even some here. I doubt many players would appreciate such a prank as that note, heh.
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The Total Package wrote: Yes +12 is correct. But I'm not satisfied, can I do more? lower your standards so the game doesnt get boring with normal scaled encounters
also consider that white room math rarely applies in actual combat
I'm with TRB; I think spells like Blindness or Blur will be winners for you. I can't think of many more buffs in terms of accuracy off the top of my head. Heroism will eventually give you some more breathing room, action-wise, than Fortissimo does, but that's not until level 17. I think it'd be more effective to start looking at buffs that help your barb keep swinging longer and suffer less damage overall, so they can keep critting down enemies like the Universe's angriest lawnmower.
Also, a bit off-topic, but something about the framing of this thread makes me smile and I'm not sure why.
OrochiFuror wrote: Easl wrote:
But it does bring up the humorous thought. Party is outside bossmonster's door, the bard fervently casting all their 1-minute duration buffs. Then in a 'round 0' flash the fighter slams open the door while the bard casts Tempest of Shades so that the first round of actual combat they can combo that with their 1A aid + 1A composition + 1A True Target, and the party finds...a note. "Spellcasting is loud. I heard you. Be back in 90 seconds when you're completely out of mojo."
Frankly, the whole thing sounds a bit like one of Ravingdork's hypotheticals.
Some people do play that way, even some here. I doubt many players would appreciate such a prank as that note, heh. If it were to be something I'd do, I'd only ever do it once, and even then not for a super important fight. IMO the point of those kinds of jokes is to gently remind the party that the world is alive and will sometimes respond to cheesy tactics they employ with cheesy tactics of their own, not to punish them for being organized and prepared for danger.
It'd also be fun to employ for setting up a big bad later on. It'd clue the party in that this character is either genre savvy, or canny enough to make no difference, and also gives them a reason to want to fight and defeat them without even needing to meet.
Perpdepog wrote: I'm with TRB; I think spells like Blindness or Blur will be winners for you. I can't think of many more buffs in terms of accuracy off the top of my head. Heroism will eventually give you some more breathing room, action-wise, than Fortissimo does, but that's not until level 17. Agree. And even the heroism @6 for (just) the +2 will be better I think, combined with synesthesia instead of Tempest of Shades. Heroism frees up you actions and focus points, synesthesia is a 5th lvl spell which could last a minute, leaving you with extra true targets for additional accuracy for the Barb. That leaves the one action for aid and the option to cast any other devastating spell like uncontrollable dance.
Perpdepog wrote:
If it were to be something I'd do, I'd only ever do it once, and even then not for a super important fight. IMO the point of those kinds of jokes is to gently remind the party that the world is alive and will sometimes respond to cheesy tactics they employ with cheesy tactics of their own, not to punish them for being organized and prepared for danger.
I wouldn't do something like that as it's a bit too fourth wall breaking for my style of play. Otherwise I don't allow the cheese in the first place, nearly all buffs are for one combat and setting up ambushes to be able to prebuff requires stealth for the whole group. I don't run and have actually never been in a group that plays as tactical door kickers.
So while the OP may or may not have been super serious, I do think it's good to know how to get the most out of your limited slots and often very limited time in combat to be the most efficient. +12 for possibly one attack though better be on your barbarian as otherwise that seems overkill and becomes less efficient.
Falco271 wrote: Perpdepog wrote: I'm with TRB; I think spells like Blindness or Blur will be winners for you. I can't think of many more buffs in terms of accuracy off the top of my head. Heroism will eventually give you some more breathing room, action-wise, than Fortissimo does, but that's not until level 17. Agree. And even the heroism @6 for (just) the +2 will be better I think, combined with synesthesia instead of Tempest of Shades. Heroism frees up you actions and focus points, synesthesia is a 5th lvl spell which could last a minute, leaving you with extra true targets for additional accuracy for the Barb. That leaves the one action for aid and the option to cast any other devastating spell like uncontrollable dance. Aid only uses my reaction. I pop Fortissimo so both the Barb and the Fighter can benefit.
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OrochiFuror wrote: Perpdepog wrote:
If it were to be something I'd do, I'd only ever do it once, and even then not for a super important fight. IMO the point of those kinds of jokes is to gently remind the party that the world is alive and will sometimes respond to cheesy tactics they employ with cheesy tactics of their own, not to punish them for being organized and prepared for danger.
I wouldn't do something like that as it's a bit too fourth wall breaking for my style of play. Otherwise I don't allow the cheese in the first place, nearly all buffs are for one combat and setting up ambushes to be able to prebuff requires stealth for the whole group. I don't run and have actually never been in a group that plays as tactical door kickers.
So while the OP may or may not have been super serious, I do think it's good to know how to get the most out of your limited slots and often very limited time in combat to be the most efficient. +12 for possibly one attack though better be on your barbarian as otherwise that seems overkill and becomes less efficient. Yes I was serious, real serious. We are not able to prebuff, this is straight up in combat, first round, Stride (free, I have an ability that lets me stride for free), then Tempest of Shades sometimes. Then second round we Fortissimo for +3, True Strike and then Strike in order to extend the Fortissimo to two rounds and then followed by the Departure of the TOS. Then I'll use +4 aid reaction on the Barbs turn. He is almost always flanking with the Fighter so we have only +12 there with a reroll. I could cast another high level spell here on round 2 instead of True target, maybe a heightened Invisibility? I think you guys may be right, Blur is ok, but Heightened Invisibility could do a lot of work.
The Total Package wrote: OrochiFuror wrote: Perpdepog wrote:
If it were to be something I'd do, I'd only ever do it once, and even then not for a super important fight. IMO the point of those kinds of jokes is to gently remind the party that the world is alive and will sometimes respond to cheesy tactics they employ with cheesy tactics of their own, not to punish them for being organized and prepared for danger.
I wouldn't do something like that as it's a bit too fourth wall breaking for my style of play. Otherwise I don't allow the cheese in the first place, nearly all buffs are for one combat and setting up ambushes to be able to prebuff requires stealth for the whole group. I don't run and have actually never been in a group that plays as tactical door kickers.
So while the OP may or may not have been super serious, I do think it's good to know how to get the most out of your limited slots and often very limited time in combat to be the most efficient. +12 for possibly one attack though better be on your barbarian as otherwise that seems overkill and becomes less efficient. Yes I was serious, real serious. We are not able to prebuff, this is straight up in combat, first round, Stride (free, I have an ability that lets me stride for free), then Tempest of Shades sometimes. Then second round we Fortissimo for +3, True Strike and then Strike in order to extend the Fortissimo to two rounds and then followed by the Departure of the TOS. Then I'll use +4 aid reaction on the Barbs turn. He is almost always flanking with the Fighter so we have only +12 there with a reroll. I could cast another high level spell here on round 2 instead of True target, maybe a heightened Invisibility? I think you guys may be right, Blur is ok, but Heightened Invisibility could do a lot of work. Aid apart from your reaction does also require 1 Action on your turn to setup for it.
The only ability that allows for Aid without that 1 Action is Fake out, and as a bard you won't be giving +4 with Fake out since it uses your weapon proficiency, which caps at Expert.
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In short, in those 2 theoretical rounds you've posted, you'd be unable to Aid.
Multiclass into alchemist and start giving him mutagens in a spider shifting collar. This can bump his item bonus by 1 since at most levels mutagens item bonuses are above the comparable item bonus of fundamental weapon runes. Things like quick-silver mutagen, war-blood mutagen, etc.
Or feed him a variety of other elixirs/mutagens that can boost damage.
shroudb wrote: The Total Package wrote: OrochiFuror wrote: Perpdepog wrote:
If it were to be something I'd do, I'd only ever do it once, and even then not for a super important fight. IMO the point of those kinds of jokes is to gently remind the party that the world is alive and will sometimes respond to cheesy tactics they employ with cheesy tactics of their own, not to punish them for being organized and prepared for danger.
I wouldn't do something like that as it's a bit too fourth wall breaking for my style of play. Otherwise I don't allow the cheese in the first place, nearly all buffs are for one combat and setting up ambushes to be able to prebuff requires stealth for the whole group. I don't run and have actually never been in a group that plays as tactical door kickers.
So while the OP may or may not have been super serious, I do think it's good to know how to get the most out of your limited slots and often very limited time in combat to be the most efficient. +12 for possibly one attack though better be on your barbarian as otherwise that seems overkill and becomes less efficient. Yes I was serious, real serious. We are not able to prebuff, this is straight up in combat, first round, Stride (free, I have an ability that lets me stride for free), then Tempest of Shades sometimes. Then second round we Fortissimo for +3, True Strike and then Strike in order to extend the Fortissimo to two rounds and then followed by the Departure of the TOS. Then I'll use +4 aid reaction on the Barbs turn. He is almost always flanking with the Fighter so we have only +12 there with a reroll. I could cast another high level spell here on round 2 instead of True target, maybe a heightened Invisibility? I think you guys may be right, Blur is ok, but Heightened Invisibility could do a lot of work. Aid apart from your reaction does also require 1 Action on your turn to setup for it.
The only ability that allows for Aid without that 1 Action is Fake out, and as a bard you won't be giving... I have Fake Out, Free Archetype Gunslinger. I have Helpful Halfling and also The Publican. It is strictly a reaction.
well, if you havel level 20 unique items on your level 15 character, i guess you're looking for more unique ways to buff others, at that point, you are already above the expected curve.
shroudb wrote: well, if you havel level 20 unique items on your level 15 character, i guess you're looking for more unique ways to buff others, at that point, you are already above the expected curve. No, I am playing Stolen Fate. We are at the expected curve.
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This is the theoretical max I think you can get with one round of buffing, this assumes you are a L18 bard for eternal composition who has grabbed All For One and beast master.
1st Action (hasted) + Corageous Anthem Fortimo +3 attack and damage to all allies
2nd Action Demoralise/ Scare to Death - Frightened Two
3rd Action - True Targets - Advantage roughly worth 4 points
4th Action - All For One
Free Action - Pet Flanks +2
Reaction - Aid + 4
So you give + 9ish too all allies in range of your effects (+5 with Advantage)
and that one special ally who is flanking with your pet gets +15ish (+11 with advantage).
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