Party Face / Social Rogue build?


Advice


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Hey, so we're starting a new game in Rise of the runelords. it's a six man group, and while a few people haven't communicated what they're going to play yet, we have an Oracle, a summoner, and potentially my rogue so far. I have never played a rogue yet or been the 'party face' before I figured it was time.

I already had a backstory idea centered around an ex-spy on the run, for a lawful neutral rogue. I figured I don't want to be totally useless outside of being a party face though.

It's a 20 point buy and we're starting level 1. There were a few builds I looked at focusing around knife master/scout combo or ninjas with high CHA, but I don't know. I have no set race/class/or anything yet, so I don't mind creative suggestions lol. Any help would be appreciated


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You can be a decent party face rogue and reasonable skill monkey off a 14 Cha.

Then build to taste. Knifemastsr is quite good, but I'm a fan of the hard hitting STR Rogue with a two hander. Face skills and facebreaking skills.


First, people will point you to bard cause it is indeed a better mechanical choise but rogues are just fine in mostggames. Unless you play in a higly optimized gaame you can go with rogue good enough.

Now, Just maxing out all the social skill will do the trick even with a cha 10, and having a higher cha does not really helpthat much unless you are a ninja or you are planing to take the eldritch heritage feats.


I don't think i'd choose bard because the concept of playing music and whatever seems entirely against the character personality/design i'd have in mind. The character would think that sort of business is for dandies and whatnot. Unless there's an archetype of a bard that doesn't 'perform' but then if there is, what's the point?

The human idea is a good point. I was thinking of something like an aasimar or possibly tiefling, but like you said, logically they would have a harder time blending into crowds/social settings.

Sovereign Court

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Shifty wrote:

You can be a decent party face rogue and reasonable skill monkey off a 14 Cha.

Then build to taste. Knifemastsr is quite good, but I'm a fan of the hard hitting STR Rogue with a two hander. Face skills and facebreaking skills.

I'll second this. Focus your stats and feats on combat - skill ranks, class skill bonuses, and items are plenty for social skills. Also consider that in a 6-man group - particularly with two other high-Cha classes - you're best off focusing on one or two skills. Unless you're a caster trying to boost your casting stat into the stratosphere, skill ranks are usually the deciding factor at higher levels.

If one of those is Intimidate, you'd be a fool not to take the Thug archetype - it's one of the very, very few ways to make the Intimidate skill actually worthwhile in combat. A thug build with high-Str, Power Attack, and Cornugon Smash would be pretty effective in AND out of combat.

Also, having played a Rogue as my first character, I think high-Str is the way to go. You don't need Dex as much as you think. Str builds get much higher damage with much less effort, and are almost as good at stealth and whatnot.

Suggested point buy:
Str 18 (+2 racial bonus from whatever race)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 13, boost at 4th if you want

PS: If you don't need trapfinding and don't want an archetype like Thug that replaces it, I'd go ninja instead of rogue. Invisibility is just too, too good for a sneak-attack based class.

EDIT: As for interesting builds, I've always wanted to try building around Butterfly Sting. Just remember that no matter how big your crit range, you need to actually confirm it, and that the other guy needs to hit the same enemy again immediately. Still... feeding crits to a Barbarian with a x4 weapon is definitely devastating. Alternately, perhaps a Dazzling Display build?


Ninja does have a better charisma synergy because Ki pool though, and it does have a decent way to help achieve sneak attacks, move, and hits. So its not an awful idea. Rogue isn't inherently good with charisma or charisma based skills, so I'd wager the ninja ends up with better bonuses so long as your putting points into it.


Eptaceros wrote:

Hey, so we're starting a new game in Rise of the runelords. it's a six man group, and while a few people haven't communicated what they're going to play yet, we have an Oracle, a summoner, and potentially my rogue so far. I have never played a rogue yet or been the 'party face' before I figured it was time.

I already had a backstory idea centered around an ex-spy on the run, for a lawful neutral rogue. I figured I don't want to be totally useless outside of being a party face though.

It's a 20 point buy and we're starting level 1. There were a few builds I looked at focusing around knife master/scout combo or ninjas with high CHA, but I don't know. I have no set race/class/or anything yet, so I don't mind creative suggestions lol. Any help would be appreciated

Sample Feint Build:
CN Half-Elf Rogue || 10 18 14 14 10 10 || Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Stealth ||5|| Bluff,Use Magic Device, Perception||3|| Secondary Skills(2); Climb, Diplomacy, Disguise, Knowledge(dungeoneering,local), Linguistics, Sense Motive, Swim

1 |Combat Expertise, Skill Focus(Bluff)
2 |Finesse Rogue
3 |Deceitful
4 |Combat Trick(Improved Feint)
5 |Skill Focus(UMD)
6 |Minor Magic(Prestidigitation)
7 |Arcane Strike
8 |Major Magic(Silent Image)
9 |Greater Feint
10|Skill Mastery(Bluff, UMD, Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics)
11|Extra Rogue Talent(Opportunist)
12|Familiar
13|Improved Familiar(Small Air Elemental)
14|Crippling Strike
15|Extra Rogue talent(Dispelling Attack)
16|Feat(Combat Reflexes)
17|Extra Rogue Talent(Hard to fool)
18|Unwitting Ally
19|Quick Draw
20|Skill Mastery
*If mythic*
Mythic Feats: Weapon Finesse, Arcane Strike, Improved Familiar, Combat Expertise, Quickdraw
Mythic Path: Longevity, Impossible Speed, Fleet Warrior, Precision, Precision, Limitless Range, Unstoppable Shot, Perfect Strike, Critical Master, Critical Master
At lvl 11 with a +1 agile rapier and 22 dex
Feint + Opportunist + Arcane Strike = 2 sneak attacks at +15 to-hit for 7d6+10
Flanking + Haste + Opportunist + Arcane Strike =4 sneak attack at +18/+18/+18/+13 to-hit for 7d6+10
(rough math for fighter to-hit = 11-3+2+2+6 = 18, rough math on damage 2d6+22)

Out of combat is an easy place for the rogue, but for party face you need a nice social skill. I find Bluff to be my skill of choice and it synergies quite well with feinting, so that you are not dependent on flanking to be functional in combat (Been playing RotRL, no you can't assume flanking every fight).

Improved Two-Weapon feint, and moon-light stalker builds are two other feint builds.

I just like the idea of your party face skill being what you use to fight with too.


I kind of want to try the gillman eldritch raider/scout archetype with the secondary arcane magic stuff. Con and cha bonus and you can tailor your concept in a big way with your spell selection. It's not a pretty face, but you could try the skulking slayer/scout build to rush in and KO things with a big stick. From your party mix, it looks like you and the eidolon hitting the front line so I would lean towards the tough-guy rogue over the wiry dex builds.


Do most consider ninjas to be better than rogues? Even though I hate the implications the name has (really doesn't fit the character personality) I do like what i've seen so far from the class.


They are a pretty good choice, depending on what you want to do.

That's the point with Rogues, you actually build one, as opposed to just getting a boxed text character and I think that's why people don't like them and say they suck, because those people just dont get the class.

Unfortunately they love to come spread their sage advice on threads like this and perpetuate the misinformation.

At least Ninja is an alternate of Rogue.


Like I said, I don't envision some sort of corny, black-clad bloke crawling around and assassinating dudes. I guess I had more of a slightly laid-back jason bourne/solid snake vibe.


Eptaceros wrote:
Like I said, I don't envision some sort of corny, black-clad bloke crawling around and assassinating dudes. I guess I had more of a slightly laid-back jason bourne/solid snake vibe.

Omg do a feint build.

Ninjas are considered better because they get easy access to invisibility and greater invisibility which both increases their chance to-hit and removes the dependence on flanking. Overall the alternate class is far more combat focused. But a lot of what helps them out is their ki. Which doesn't really fit solid snake, but could fit jason bourne since he is more of a monk.

Sovereign Court

Wasnt snake a "black-clad bloke crawling around and assassinating dudes" dude?

Rogue is fine. However, dont knock the dandies. They will be eat your lunch and go home with the rogues girlfriend.

Lantern Lodge

Cha rogues are nice but with 2 simple traits, Clever Wordplay and Pragmatic Activator, your using your Int for the 2 Cha skills that mater allowing you to not bother with Cha to an extent. Pragmatic Activator allows one to use Int instead of Cha for UMD checks and Clever Wordplay allows for Int instead of Cha for one other skill, Diplomacy is highly recommended.

Now here is the beauty of using Clever Wordplay for Diplomacy. Other than Int governing the number of skill you know Int also governs the amount of Languages one can start off with. So a high Int Rogue is gonna have grand number of Languages (s)he knows and one needs to obviously understand you to be effected by your Diplomacy.

Dark Archive

As a very minor spoiler, RoTRL is a very combat-focused module; there are some roleplaying opportunities, but they are few and far between; so if you make a strictly out-of-combat character heavy-CHA rogue type, you're not going to be terribly happy.

As others have suggested, may I suggest a bard? You can be a high-CHA skill monkey and make the party very powerful; and use your spells to captivate out NPCs. Good Hope and Haste and buffs and your party will love you; and you'll have skills to boot.

If you insist on being a "true" Rogue (the character class, not the flavor), Thug archtype Rogue with a heavy focus on intimidate and Dazzling Display. You'll have non-fear immune enemies running for cover every round.


Thanks. I think I'm going to make two character templates so far, one for either a rogue or ninja with decent CHA if I have to be the party face. I'm also going to make a ranger I think, in case I can focus more on the exploration/combat aspects.


Eptaceros wrote:
Do most consider ninjas to be better than rogues? Even though I hate the implications the name has (really doesn't fit the character personality) I do like what i've seen so far from the class.

Ninjas are usually considered better. Ninjas aren't super amazing, but they can achieve sneak attack more reliably. The name really doesn't mean much, you don't have to wear black pajamas or be from an Asian culture to play a ninja anymore than a barbarian has to speak foreign tongues or come from a tribe.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

There is the Trapper/Freebooter Ranger combo.

Basically, the better Rogue.


Diplomacy/bluff/intimidate has so much table variation that it is insane, almost like enchantments, divinations, and illusions. Find out how your GM rolls insofar as your area is concerned. Then find out how much of skills X,Y, and Z you need to get the results in his game that you're after. If that amount is too rich for your blood consider the next tiers down.
Most of the time, at most tables, you can get by with nothing but a charisma of 12 or so, full ranks, and a minor emphasis on skill enhancing magic items. Another secret is this:
If you're not playing in my games, or games run by seriously hard core simulationists
VERY RARELY will you fail an adventure, or even a major objective solely because of a skill roll. Few GMs are willing to let an adventure hang on (or an adventure to not even start because of) what amounts to a single die roll. You'll find in practice that whatever you allocate, as long as it is a plausible investment (e.g., maxing that skill's ranks or even just having +5 or so more than the next best party member), it'll be enough. This is, in fact, one of the major problems of the rogue class. I'm willing for a group of characters to NOT learn of plot X because their intelligence network and gather information weren't up to the task. What happens then is that plot X proceeds without intervention by the PCs. Very few GMs are like this. Know your GM.


I play a human rogue Charlatan/Scout in RotRL; he has been the most fun of any character I have played!

I took 2 level of Lore Warden to get some better combat potential and also Noble Scion levels; I also have Eldritch Hertiage, Arcane, for the familiar (started with a monkey pilferer then switched over to a Faerie Dragon pilferer once I got Improved Familiar) and Leadership, chosing a pseudo-dragon ranger/rogue as my cohort.

The familiar/cohort team aid my combat abilities so i still contribute in combat; I flank with the pseudo-dragon and she has slept a few opponents with her tail, including a named giant (which allowed the raging barbarian to coup-de-grace said baddie).

If you are thinking of going Skill Focus at some point (which you need to do if you are going Eldritch Heritage anyways), take Focused Study as an alternate racial ability. You get Skill Focus at 1st, but then again twice over your career! One feat turns into three!

Like i said, I am having a blast with him; as the party's faceman, he has a Diplomacy of 38 at 11th level (Charlatan/Scout Rogue 6, Lorewarden Fighter 2, Noble Scion 3) and a Bluff of 31 (for Improved Feint).


Eptaceros wrote:

Hey, so we're starting a new game in Rise of the runelords. it's a six man group, and while a few people haven't communicated what they're going to play yet, we have an Oracle, a summoner, and potentially my rogue so far. I have never played a rogue yet or been the 'party face' before I figured it was time.

I already had a backstory idea centered around an ex-spy on the run, for a lawful neutral rogue. I figured I don't want to be totally useless outside of being a party face though.

It's a 20 point buy and we're starting level 1. There were a few builds I looked at focusing around knife master/scout combo or ninjas with high CHA, but I don't know. I have no set race/class/or anything yet, so I don't mind creative suggestions lol. Any help would be appreciated

I didn't check to see if it was recommended yet, but I really encourage you to check out the Archeologist Bard... no singing, lot's of Rogue-type skills.


Swashbucklersdc wrote:
I play a human rogue Charlatan/Scout in RotRL; he has been the most fun of any character I have played!

Rogue Advice: Don't take Charlatan. Rumermonger is just downright awful, its only useful if your GM won't let you spread rumors in the first place, and natural born liar has iffy wording and a +2 isn't really worth it, much less one that's situational.

Scout isn't so bad. I've been told you can make a scary looking scout with a 2 handed weapon. Not that that's everyone's goal, but I've been told you can do it.


I read the treantmonk guide about Rangers and was interested in doing the switch hitter ranger. The character design would be more around 'ex-bounty hunter/scout on the run" or whatever, but same personality and whatnot.

Is the switch hitter build still considered good or at least viable? I think someone else is going to do the party face character now so I'm putting rogue on the backburner.

I was also considering doing the 'skirmisher' rogue as it fits the character more to rely on craftiness and 'tricks' rather than divine magic or whatnot. Is the archetype okay to use? We already have two casters and I feel like the extra buffing/weak healing i'd get from basic rangers would have diminished usefulness.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed some posts and replies. Please don't bring off-topic debates into advice threads like this.

Sovereign Court

Switch Hitter is very viable - between having full BAB, bonus feats, and Favored Enemy, you're going to be dealing much more damage much more consistently than a Rogue. You won't have quite as many class skills or skill ranks to throw around, but with traits to pick up your favorite social skill, you'll be fine.

Skirmisher is a perfectly reasonable archetype, especially with a few casters already in the party. Losing Instant Enemy hurts, but the good tricks are certainly on-par with spells and often don't require you to use up your actions casting them.

Dark Archive

Switch hitter is Viable; but not as viable (or necessary) as it used to be. The reality is that, at the time of the Treatmonk guide, there weren't enough feats to make a "straight" two-handed ranger or bow ranger.

Times have changed, and rangers have improved (to be one of the best classes, they actually used to be pretty bad Core-only). There are actually feat lines that can remove you from provoking while shooting a bow (and even let you threaten to boot); and the ability to get around DR (a la cluster shot) and such. Bow rangers are extrodinarily good these days, and will never run out of feats to take.

As more splat books have come out, specializing in one "style" has become much, much better. Having said that, you can still pull off the "Switch Hitter" ranger; just don't be too suprised if you never find it a good idea to not use one of the two styles every time.


Eptaceros wrote:

I don't think i'd choose bard because the concept of playing music and whatever seems entirely against the character personality/design i'd have in mind. The character would think that sort of business is for dandies and whatnot. Unless there's an archetype of a bard that doesn't 'perform' but then if there is, what's the point?

The human idea is a good point. I was thinking of something like an aasimar or possibly tiefling, but like you said, logically they would have a harder time blending into crowds/social settings.

You don't have to have a bard that plays music, instead your bard could bard could whistle, rap, hum, or even do a jig to use his abilities.

Dark Archive

One of my favorite bards, the Arcanist, doesn't need performs at all. They are simply very knowledgable and likeable, and use their gift to point out weaknesses to their friends (granting nice AC / save / to hit bonuses). They are very good at keeping the party powered up, and make for excellent sociable characters as well. And because of their tendancy to have high int, they have lots of skill points to throw around.


Eptaceros wrote:
Like I said, I don't envision some sort of corny, black-clad bloke crawling around and assassinating dudes. I guess I had more of a slightly laid-back jason bourne/solid snake vibe.

The black-clad stereotype is from oriental theater and not real life.

Some playwright wanted a ninja in a story, and to show the "invisible" nature, the ninja was clad exactly like a stagehand. All in black, to keep them mostly unseen by the audience. In real life, ninja dressed exactly like others, to blend in. It was only by their actions, that their presence became known. Later, when movies wanted ninja to be shown, they used what the public was familiar with: stagehand outfitted actors.

The art of invisibility is not the art of hiding a distinctive outfit, but of making others discount you because you are of no consequence. In feudal times, east or west, the lowly servants and drudges were ignored unless they got in the way. By dressing as one of these, a ninja could freely scout a castle without anyone knowing they were there. Later, people think the ninja was invisible because no one saw anyone unusual about.

As to assassination, I think that was actually rare. More often a ninja was sent to gather information. Yes, they are good at killing from the shadows, but it is not the only thing they do. Also, for a good assassination, you need to solo. That is hard with a party of PCs going with you all the time. Much more often the party will enter combat, and the ninja will be a melee attacker.

I play a ninja in PF, and find myself to be in a "face" role because of my high Cha and face skills. However, I use those skills to plant modified stories that emphasize what the other party members do over what I do, and play my role as second fiddle to the others. I am in the Skulls & Shackles AP, and another is the pirate captain. This helps focus interest in another PC, allowing me to work behind the scenes a bit more.

/cevah


And now for something completely different!

If you don't mind sniping and letting others get the bulk of the combat glory, this build could work. I worked it up until level 12, but without gear

The build focuses on skills, social, stealth, and trap-related (I've never played RotRL, but I understand there are a fair amount)

At level 3, you take Eldritch Heritage (Shadow (Umbral Wildblooded) Bloodline)

At level 7, you can hide in the daylight using Hellcat stealth

Level 8, 9, 10 you pick up ranged combat feats and sniping so you can move away from melee

At level 11 and 12, using improved eldritch heritage you can now hide anywhere, shadow or light, see in darkness, and move people around in shadows. You pick up crippling strike to debuff baddies. Your UMD is pretty nice by this point, giving you more options.

You'll be doing a lot of sniping/single attacks and scouting in your career. Other folk are there to cover damage in your party, you cover a lot of other roles. Being able to get a +30 to stealth in shadows (using cloak of shadows) before items isn't too shabby.

build path:

Human, Focused Study Racial Trait
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16
Favored Class (Rogue)
Traits:
Reactionary
Merchant Family (because +10% extra on items sold is Awesome!)

Level 1:
Feat: Skill Focus (Stealth)
Feat: Alertness
Favored Class (extra hp)
Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Stealth, Linguistics (Goblin)

Level 2:
Rogue Talent: Finesse Rogue
Favored Class (extra hp)
Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Stealth, Sense Motive, Swim

Level 3:
Feat: Eldritch Heritage (Umbral (wildblooded shadow)) heritage
Favored Class (extra hp)
Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Stealth, Sense Motive (2), Use Magic Device

Level 4:
Dexterity +1
Rogue Talent: Trap Spotter
Favored Class (extra hp)
Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Linguistics (Giant), Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Use Magic Device

Level 5:
Feat: Shadow Strike
Favored Class (extra hp)
Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Stealth, Use Magic Device (x2)

Level 6:
Rogue Talents: Fast Stealth
Favored Class (extra hp)
Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Stealth, Use Magic Device (x2)

Level 7:
Feat: Hellcat Stealth
Favored Class (1/6 of a bonus rogue talent)
Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Use Magic Device

Level 8:
Rogue Talent: Combat Trick (Point Blank)
Skill Focus (Disable Device) (from Focused Study)
Favored Class (1/6 of a bonus rogue talent)
Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Sense Motive (2), Stealth, Use Magic Device

Level 9:
Feat: Precise Shot
Favored Class (1/6 of a bonus rogue talent)
Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Sense Motive (2), Stealth, Use Magic Device

Level 10:
Rogue Talent: Stealthy Sniper
Favored Class (1/6 of a bonus rogue talent)
Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Use Magic Device

Level 11:
Feat: Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow Well)
Favored Class (1/6 of a bonus rogue talent)
Acrobatics, Bluff (2), Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Stealth, Use Magic Device

Level 12:
Rogue Talent: Crippling Strike, Feat (Improved Eldritch Heritage (Darkvision))
Favored Class (1/6 of a bonus rogue talent)
Acrobatics, Bluff (2), Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Stealth, Use Magic Device

build (no items):

AMRICA
CR 11
Female Human (Varisian) Rogue 12
CN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Darkvision 60', Perception +21 (+27 to spot traps)

DEFENSE
AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 14 (+4 Dex, )
hp 76 (12d8)+18
Fort +5, Ref +12, Will +6, +4 Reflex to avoid traps
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +4, Uncanny Dodge,

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Special Attacks Crippling Strike, Sneak Attack 6d6,

STATISTICS
Str 8, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16
Base Atk +9; CMB +8; CMD 22
Feats Alertness, Armor Proficiency (Light), Eldritch Heritage, Hellcat Stealth, Improved Eldritch Heritage (2x), Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Shadow Strike, Skill Focus (Stealth, Disable Device), Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +19, Bluff +16, Climb +3, Diplomacy +18, Disable Device +31, Escape Artist +19, Linguistics(Goblin, Giant) +5, Perception +21, Sense Motive +19, Stealth +25, Swim +3, Use Magic Device +18,
Languages Common, Giant, Goblin, Varisian
SQ Bonus Rogue Talent (6x), Cloak of Shadows, Fast Stealth, Focused Study, Skilled, Stealthy Sniper, Trapfinding, Trap Spotter, Weapon and Armor Proficiency, ,

Possessions

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Bonus Rogue Talent (6x) The human gains +1/6 of a new rogue talent.
Cloak of Shadows (Sp) As a standard action, you can grant one target a cloak of shadows. This cloak gives the target a +5 bonus on Stealth checks made in areas of dim or no light for 5 rounds. You may use this ability 6/day.
Crippling Strike (Ex) You can sneak attack opponents with such precision that your blows weaken and hamper them.
Evasion (Ex) You can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks.
Fast Stealth (Ex) This ability allows you to move at full speed using Stealth without penalty.
Focused Study (Ex) At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, gain skill focus in a skill of your choice.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex) You can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack you by flanking you, unless the attacker is a rogue of at least level 16.
Merchant Family You are related to one of the four noble families from Magnimar who founded the Mercantile League of Sandpoint. You either grew up in Magnimar as a cousin in the Valdemar or Deverin family or were born and raised in Sandpoint. Education in running a business and years of looking after the family enterprise have given you a knack for trade. You increase the gp limit of any settlement by 20% and can resell items at an additional 10% over the amount of gp you normally would get from selling off treasure.
Reactionary You were bullied often as a child, but never quite developed an offensive response. Instead, you became adept at anticipating sudden attacks and reacting to danger quickly.
Skilled Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
Sneak Attack (Ex) If you can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from your attack, you can strike a vital spot for extra damage. [6d6]
Stealthy Sniper (Ex) When a rogue with this talent uses the Stealth skill to snipe, she only suffers a -10 penalty on the Stealth check, instead of -20.
Trapfinding (Ex) You add +6 to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks. You can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magical traps.
Trap Sense (Ex) You gain a +4 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps, and a +4 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10 feet of a trap, you receive an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.
Umbral (Wildblooded Shadow) Bloodline
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) You can react to danger before your senses would normally allow you to do so.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.


OK, finally got to play with this some more; also switched skill focus from disable to perception, as trap DCs don't get higher then 34, really.

build with pc wealth:
Amrica
Female Human (Varisian) rogue 12
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8, Senses darkvision 60 ft., Perception +28
=================================================
DEFENSE
=================================================
AC 25, touch 18, flat-footed 25 (+6 armor, +1 deflection, +6 Dex, +1 insight, +1 natural)
hp 76 ((12d8)+18)
Fort +8, Ref +17, Will +10, +4 Reflex to avoid traps
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +4, uncanny dodge,
=================================================
OFFENSE
=================================================
Speed 40 ft.
Melee rapier +1 (agile) +16/+11 (1d6+7/18-20)
Ranged shortbow +1 (corrosive) +16/+11 (1d6/x3 plus 1d6 acid)
Special Attacks Crippling Strike, Sneak Attack 6d6
Magic Item Spell-Like Abilities feather fall (DC 10,at will)
=================================================
STATISTICS
=================================================
Str 8, Dex 23, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 16
Base Atk +9; CMB +8; CMD 26
Feats Alertness, Armor Proficiency, Light, Eldritch Heritage, Hellcat Stealth, Improved Eldritch Heritage (2x), Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Shadow Strike, Skill Focus (Stealth, Perception), Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +21, Bluff +19, Climb +3, Diplomacy +21, Disable Device +33, Escape Artist +27, Linguistics(Goblin, Giant) +5, Perception +28, Sense Motive +20, Stealth +32, Swim +3, Use Magic Device +21
Languages Common, Giant, Goblin, Varisian
SQ bonus rogue talent (6x), cloak of shadows, fast stealth, focused study, skilled, stealthy sniper, trapfinding, trap spotter, weapon and armor proficiency
Combat Gear wand of cure light wounds(50 charges), scroll (align weapon), scroll (blur), scroll (fly), scroll (glitterdust), scroll (invisibility), scroll (protection from evil), scroll (remove fear), scroll (see invisibility), potion (touch of the sea/wizard/1st)
Other Gear amulet of natural armor +1, circlet of persuasion, headband of unshakeable resolve, sniper goggles, ring of protection +1, ring of feather falling, belt of incredible dexterity +4, cloak of resistance +3, outfit (traveler's), vest of escape, mithral shirt +2, boots of striding and springing, handy haversack, thieves' tools (masterwork), ioun stone, dusty rose prism, ioun stone, pale ruby trillian, rapier +1 (agile), shortbow +1 (corrosive)
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Bonus Rogue Talent (6x) The human gains +1/6 of a new rogue talent.
Cloak of Shadows (Sp) As a standard action, you can grant one target a cloak of shadows. This cloak gives the target a +5 bonus on Stealth checks made in areas of dim or no light for 5 rounds. You may use this ability 6/day.
Crippling Strike (Ex) You can sneak attack opponents with such precision that your blows weaken and hamper them.
Evasion (Ex) You can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks.
Fast Stealth (Ex) This ability allows you to move at full speed using Stealth without penalty.
Focused Study (Ex) At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, gain skill focus in a skill of your choice.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex) You can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack you by flanking you, unless the attacker is a rogue of at least level 16.
Merchant Family You are related to one of the four noble families from Magnimar who founded the Mercantile League of Sandpoint. You either grew up in Magnimar as a cousin in the Valdemar or Deverin family or were born and raised in Sandpoint. Education in running a business and years of looking after the family enterprise have given you a knack for trade. You increase the gp limit of any settlement by 20% and can resell items at an additional 10% over the amount of gp you normally would get from selling off treasure.
Reactionary You were bullied often as a child, but never quite developed an offensive response. Instead, you became adept at anticipating sudden attacks and reacting to danger quickly.
Skilled Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
Sneak Attack (Ex) If you can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from your attack, you can strike a vital spot for extra damage. [6d6]
Stealthy Sniper (Ex) When a rogue with this talent uses the Stealth skill to snipe, she only suffers a -10 penalty on the Stealth check, instead of -20.
Trapfinding (Ex) You add +6 to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks. You can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magical traps.
Trap Sense (Ex) You gain a +4 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps, and a +4 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10 feet of a trap, you receive an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.
Umbral (Wildblooded Shadow) Bloodline
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) You can react to danger before your senses would normally allow you to do so.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.


Chris Lambertz wrote:
Removed some posts and replies. Please don't bring off-topic debates into advice threads like this.
Eptaceros wrote:

I already had a backstory idea centered around an ex-spy on the run, for a lawful neutral rogue. I figured I don't want to be totally useless outside of being a party face though.

It's a 20 point buy and we're starting level 1. There were a few builds I looked at focusing around knife master/scout combo or ninjas with high CHA, but I don't know. I have no set race/class/or anything yet, so I don't mind creative suggestions lol. Any help would be appreciated

Emphasis added

If this is the thread I think it is the posts weren't off topic. The OP is looking for advice on a character and is not wedded to a class. Suggesting that his character concept is better served by classes other than rogue is exactly the sort of advice he purports to be seeking.

And bard just does it better, not just mechanically, but thematically. Bard is a better fit for a lawful ex-spy than rogue because an ex-spy's most important defining character trait is his cover and actor is one that uses skills related to spying and allows him to travel. It is a natural career path for a lawful ex-spy in a way that rogue isn't.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Rogue the concept, and Rogue the class, are two different things.


"I already had a backstory idea centered around an ex-spy on the run, for a lawful neutral rogue".

I think most of us were taking this part at face value, but as pointed out, the 'no set race/class/or anything yet' but seems to contradict.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Unless you desperately want to sneak attack, I would go for an archaeologist bard for this concept. No singing allowed, good face skills and truly excellent knowledge, even better at perception and disable device than a rogue (your 1/2 class bonus applies to all perception, not just traps). The archaeologist's luck bonus is incredible, in or out of combat.

My character never identified herself as a bard, in-character. Her intro in PFS parties was, "I'm good at getting into places, and out of places, with valuable items. I know a lot about a lot of things, and I've got a little bit of magic if we need it. I'm good at talking to people, and even better at lying to them."

Sound good?


Eldritch Raider and the spell like abilities you can get, can really improve your social interaction/the way you affect others. Enchantment and Illusion have a lot of spells to help you in this area, while Transmutation has many "change-your-form" spells that add to your general utility too.


Eptaceros wrote:
Do most consider ninjas to be better than rogues? Even though I hate the implications the name has (really doesn't fit the character personality) I do like what i've seen so far from the class.

Ninja is just a word you write on your character sheet. I have played ninjas as "Spy", "Covert Agent" and "Sneaky Silver-tongues Devil"


At some point we have to remember to throw out the names of the classes and just see them as a grab bag of skills and abilities.

I guess it comes out to asking what you want your character to actually DO and how you want them to be doing it, and then looking for the 'package' that fits best.

Someone might want to be a debt collector or heavy for the local Thieves guild, and whilst they might wear leather armour and occasionally simply steal stuff, they might find the best 'Package' is the one labelled Fighter.

That said, a lot of people are really down on the package currently labelled 'Rogue', which is a shame, as they are a flexible and diverse package of characteristics which can be tailored into a unique and highly effective set of skills for just about any campaign imaginable. They are one of the most flexible packages, however in a game where a lot of people like specialisation, they get eyed with suspicion and derision.

Frankly I really like that package, and have had no problems holding my own in a party when using it.

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