I hope yopu are wrong.The arcane duelist get heavy armor proficiency so I hope the Magus get that too.
If the spell list only includes 1st through 6th level spells the Magus will face the same problem the bard has. To few spells at too low levels.
No way to cast metamagic spells like quicken spell.
No, Dissinger is taking about that.Nero is taking about something else. Notice Nero says: "I'm not sure where the "You get new temp hit points every round" idea from"
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
[...] And for fighters... +2 BAB can mean extra attacks, and perhaps also allow for guilt-free use of the Power Attack feat.
Do they get +2 BAB? I'm not sure. That's one of the questions I would like Paizo to answer.Calling it inspire "Greatness" just because you get some temp hit points is a bit strange.
English is not my native language. So my intention in this opening post is not to be Ironic, Sarcastic, Rude, etc.
This is not a bard thread. It’s a thread about Inspire greatness. And I’m not saying, “Inspire greatness is too weak and this is really a big problem and I’m disappointed”. It's not a problem the bard can use inspire competence.
I‘m saying, perhaps there is more to Inspire greatness than meets the eye and if not what was the designer’s thought?
- First Inspire greatness seems to be pointless. Inspire Courage is much better so why use Inspire greatness?
James Jacobs wrote:
Thread and following debate can be found here
James’ answer: ”It’s very much a tougher version of inspire competence”, seems to indicate it’s more than just +2 to attack and some temporary hit points.
I have already got some answers from Dissinger in the thread above but they are not satisfactory. I’m hopping James, Jason or anyone from the Paizo staff will explain this to all of us who have an interest in Inspire greatness. I know we can house rule but this is not the issue here.
So here are all my questions. Inspire greatness:
In order for you to understand why I’m asking all this here are some quotes from Dissinger and some reflections from me.
Dissinger already gave me this answer on how IG works:
I know all this. This is not new to me but my point is:
- That leaves Blasphemy.
IG can't be activated as an Immediate Action. This mean that if the bard wants to mitigate the effect of Blasphemy "it must be done ahead of time." This mean the bard must win the initiative (or know the party will meet a foe that might use Blasphemy and the bard must also know when and where the party will meet that foe). Even if the bard wins the initiative he must know that there is a risk the foe is going to cast Blasphemy. Otherwise the bard mus use IG in every encounter, "just in case".
The usefulness of IG seems to be just theoretical.
Let's take a look at party I'm playing in.
Why would the bard use IG? The hit points is no big deal and IC is far better.
So I just want to know is there more to Inspire greatness than meets the eye? That is:
I’m not saying IG is too weak and it’s a problem. It’s not a problem, The bard can use IC.
1) No I did not say that. Read again.2) How many Balors willyou meet at level 9 or 11? If you do meet them, you are dead anyway.
At level 9 daze and most of the spells you have mentioned does not effect you. At level 11 Inspire Courage is +3 and Inspire Greatness is still +2 and still only affects 1 person. And at level 11 you are either immune to all the spells you have mentioned or Distraction is a bettrer option (Hypnotic Pattern and Rainbow Pattern).
Yes, That was one of my big points and you won't always know what you are up agains or what spells the caster has preperaed or which spell is is going to cast. Even if you did you must still win the initiativ.Playing out hypothetical situations does not convince me of the usefulness of Inspire Greatness. Especially if the situation is unlikely.
Arguments like "if a + b + c + d + e +f then it can be useful", does not convince me.
So if inspire greatness could be activated as an Immediate Action it would be a good, but it doesn't and the DH don't linger.
? If facing a lot of small creatures giving +2HD to one person is not a good option. James pointed out that the great thing about the bonus HD is not the hit points. So my question was. What's the point with the 2HD?
As I said before. Most of these spells are not a problem at level 9. At level 11 the only spell that matter is Blasphemy.
Yes, that is one of my poits.
No I won't. I'm talking about the PF Final.
I don't think it is pretty straight forward.If an ally is affected by HD dependent effect, would the effect end if he/she got 2 more HD?
I'll will start a new thread about it (when I'm up to it). But just a reflection.
A) So if the bard wins the initiative AND
B) If the bard, for some reason, think Inspire greatness would be good this time and starts are performing it AND
C) you meet a foe that CAN Blasphemy AND and has prepared it AND
D) Inspire greatness would make a difference. That is: you are not high enough level just not to care or you level is not so low that Inspire greatness would have no effect. AND
E) The foe cast blasphemy
Then it would be usefull to the one who get the bonus HD, probably not the bard himself so he would be Paralyzed unless he has a ring of freedom of movment (or the spell cast on him before the battle).
If Inspire greatness could be activated as an Immediate Action I could see the point in it.
Sorry to say you are wrong. You are thinking 3.x. In Pathfinder it is:"Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty."
Stealth is not vs. listen. It's vs. perception. So unless he is invisible it doesn't matter if you cast sculpt sound.
Even if he is invisible there are som problems.
So the +20 reduction from moving is a combination of many factors. You might stepp in a puddle or break a twig or upset some birds or kick some gravel or whatecer. Sure the Paladin would sound like a rustling wind, but the gravel and twing on the gound won't. That is, the surroundings is still affected by the Paladin even if he has an Armor Check Penalty of 0, and sounds like a rustling wind AND is invisible.
Again.May we have an official answer? Please.
This just isn't true. When I mean funny, I'm not talking jokes. I'm talking about roleplaying. A fighter with a drinking problem, a rogue with agoraphobia, a cleric that doesn't like to heal a stupid Brbarian that get fooled by the rogue all the time, all these characters can be hilarious.Some people do roleplaying just by rollplaying some do both.
The concept that just charisma characters with social skills can roleplay is just not true. However, I you need to use diplomacy, bluff, etc. you need charisma and some skills in diplomacy. Agree.
So if by roleplaying you mean a campaign that focus on social interaction with non playing characters and the need to use diplomacy, bluff etc. the bard, cleric and other charsima based classes have it easier.
Since the HD don't linger you have to ready an action all the time. Am I wrong? I just want to know.
You’ve been given a lot of good (and bad) suggestions.In terms of effectiveness, as Zombieneighbours said: "Bards are very good at interacting with the social conflict rules(for what they are worth). They are in fact, very likely the best at doing so." Or as I would put it, one of the best classes at doing so. So a campaign with a lot of roleplaying would work fine with a Bard.
Another example has not been mentioned as far as I can tell.
Here the Bard would not only be a good choice but a great choice, in fact the best choice
This is when you got a sorcerer in a group of five or more. Especially when the rest of the group focus on weapon damage, Fighter, combat Rogue, (combat) cleric, Sorcerer and Bard.
Now, the rogue and cleric won’t boost their Int. The rogue will have max 13 int and the cleric 10. The cleric will have Char 13 or 14 and the rogue will have char 7 – 12.
The fighter will have max 13 in and probably dump its char.
If you play a sorcerer you don’t want to prepare spells, you pick fireball at level 6 and you probably just go for dex, con and charisma.
The problem with Sorcerer: not many skill points, not many class skills, not many spells known.
The Bard on the other hand has many skill points, many class skill, more spells known than the Sorcerer.
Problem with Bard. Bad DC not any good damage dealing spells and not many attack spells.
So a Bard should not pick slow but should pick haste, good hope etc.
Lets look at this rocking combo. Since you have a bard in the group he can pick all the utility spells and the sorcerer can go for all spells with a DC. Bards can still pick stuff like Grease and Glitterdust since these two also serves as utility spells and he will also pick CLW and CMW. Bard has many skills so the sorcerer can settle for 10 int and just boost that charisma.
At level 7 bard picks haste. At level 5 and 6 he use scrolls with haste. Sorcerer doesn’t have to pick haste at level 7 but should pick slow (or whatever). Until now the bard have boosted the group and helped out with some healing when the cleric chooses to go melee. At level 8 things change however.
Bard built. There have been a lot of talk about the melee bard. I think that’s just stupid . The bard have light armor and need it’s dex. If the bard dumps it’s dex the cleric just will need to heal one more party member. Every time the bard heals himself another party member isn’t getting healed by the bard. Go archer.
Str 12 – 14 (You may have to go melee sometimes and you want a mighty bow)
Dex – high
Con 12 or 14
Int 13 or 14
Wis 7 or 8 (don’t dump it too much)
Char 15. (You want 16 at level 7 when you get your level 3 spells.)
Point blank shot, precise shot, Deadly aim. Improved Initiative. If you multiclass, play Elf or spend a feat you can use a longbow, a might longbow.
I would try to stay away from Extra Performance. At higher level you won’t need it.
So you have a general idea. But at level 8 the fun begins. All this talk about buff but no talk of debuff. Dirge of Doom, No save! In our party we have just starting to use it and it is MEAN.
So you want a high dex and Improved Initiative. You want to ha a high Initiative.
Our bard has 18 Charisma. Using Dirge of Doom spells like Glitterdust even Grease works well. The ogre is blind and/ or has dropped his weapon.
James Jacobs wrote:
Answer please :-)
Just as Remove Paralysis and Restoration are not buff spells nore are Featherfall and Remove Fear.I could have added the whole lits of cleric spells and all domainspells. The list would have been longer.
I was just showing a cleric is a good buffer. Having a buff competition is just silly. Who is the best buffer. I say the cleric. She can cast more buffs per day. But You may not agree and that's fine. I just pointing out it's not obvious the bard is the best buffer.
These spell are not in my book.
Yes you are right. They are jack of all trades. But having a Bard in the Party does not always equal no need to have a rogue. Rogues are more dex based and have sneak attack and disable device. I would say a ranger or monk would do the rogues job better than the bard. They usually have a higher dex than the bard and they are more focused on combat.But yes, both classes, Rogue and Bard, have a lot of skills. So the opposite is equal true: 'Also as a skill monkey you don't need to have a Bard in the party if something occurs where a skill might be useful.' Especially since a Party without a bard usually have a cleric, wizard and tank. All these classes have knowledge skills and other skills.
I think their is a general misconception that you must max a skill and have a high attribute to go with it to be able to use a skill. That might be true when using disable device, but not true when using sense motive, diplomacy, climb, knowledge skills, etc.
No I'm not missing your point, but I think you are missing my point.I'm not sure the bard is the best buff class if we are talking about spells. Clerics got prot from evil, Shield of Faith, bless, prayer, resist energy, bull's str, Eagle’s Splendor, Bear’s Endurance, magic weapon, greater magic weapon, Shield Other, Protection from Energy, Magic Vestment, Magic Circle against Evil, Water Breathing, Freedom of Movement, Spell Resistance, True Seeing, Death Ward, Heroes’ Feast, Bull’s Strength, Mass, Holy Aura. I can go on.
Then when things go wrong they got all healing spells and all damage dealing spells and spells like Remove Paralysis, Restoration, etc.
If we talk about domain spells and domain powers we have Inspiring Word, holy sword and Dimensional Hop as powers. There are more.
Spells: detect thoughts, fly, invisibility, dimension door, etc.
You are right, the bard is the only class with the bard spell list.
But a cleric and a Sorcerer/Wizard will do just fine. In fact a cleric and a Rogue with UMD will do fine too. I've seen it myself.
No class have Bardic performance, true (a cleric with the Nobility domain comes close), but they got other stuff going for them.
Countering my counter argument with "well everyone is a unique snowflake" hardly discredits the point I'm trying to prove. I hope by clarifying my viewpoint you understand what I'm trying to accomplish.
Well I'm just a little tired of people saying the bard is unique. If I read you wrong, my apology.The Bard is uniqe and I like him. Not all do. In games upp to level 8 or 9 he is nice.
Some of the arguments I've read hasn't impressed me much. If you look for a back up healer go for Druid or Paladin. There actually people who say the Paladin is a better healer than the cleric. And at lower levels the healing a bard can do, can just as easely be accomplished useing a wand.
And the argument, "what if?", just doesn't do anything to me.
What if the cleric is dead and we are locked in a room and the rogue has broken both is hands and the wizard is Feebleminded and we need to get out of a the locked room and the fighter has 7 negativ levels.
Yes what if.
Perhaps. But a balanced group with skilled players will do well too. It's more of a question if the players are stupid or not.
I have heard this argument before. This arguments sounds as if it comes from a Rollplayer. You don't need a charisma character to roleplay. You only need it if you want to Rollplay the Roleplay. I've seen friends play charisma characters and never roleplay. They just want their Cleric to cast flame strike or their Paladin to hit as hard as he can. And I'v seen characters with a low char played in a hilarious manner. Rollplaying is not all about charisma and skills unless you have boring players and a conservative DM.Honestly you can't play a funny character if you are not funny.
Hilarious charceters are usually played by hilarious people (or by people who at least put their soul into the game and are some what funny or try their best to be).
So what you are saying is the bard is an unique class. True. But all classes are unique.
No one has all the spells the bard does on their spell list?The same can be said of the Cleric and druid, and no class has all the spells the Wizard/Sorcerer have on their spell list. The Bard hasn't, the cleric hasn't, the druid hasn't, the Paladin hasn't.
All classes are unique and all spell casting clases are unique in their way. As for spells, a Mystic Theurge would have more spells, more powerful spells and a more versatile spell list than the Bard. Sure a Mystic Theurge is not a bard, but then again a Bard is not a Mystic Theurge.
But do not doubt, I like the Bard. I guess most people on this thread does. That's why we have a bard class.
James Jacobs wrote:
Thank you for all the answers. I agree soothing performance is more exciting than Song of Freedom. I'm just a little curious why both songs weren't kept.
James Jacobs wrote:
Exiting. I can hardly wait.There are of course more feats that we bard lovers want. Here are some proposals.
+1 to Inspire competence.
I think the bard need a boost after level 9.
James Jacobs wrote:
Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points. It's very much a tougher version of inspire competence, but geared toward defense as well as offense, and not one that's as much a "Help EVERYONE" power as it is to help a few allies.
Agree it's not about healing. That's why I have a problem with it. Boosting HD is someting you do preventiv. Otherwise your stuck waiting to use it, a bit like couterspell, which is no good. IMHO.That's why I'm a little surprised the HD didn't linger.
James Jacobs wrote:
That is good. I have read the rules wrong. Thank you for the clarification.
So far the our Bard has done well. The rounds per day is brilliant and she has not run out of rounds at later levls. Activating is as a move action is a blessing.
Again and again people say. what if we have no cleric, what if the rogue broke his finger, what if the fighter is down.
I don't agree with some of the things you say.A cleric can't nuke and a bard can?
Clerics got holy smite, flame strike, harm, slay living, Holy word, Fire storm, etc. And the bard?
Wizard can't heal. Right. But you don't play bard to be the group healer.
Also wizards have both wish and limited wish. Sure they can heal.
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Would you explain this to me please. I don't understand this spell.I also don't get this. It says "Saving Throw Will negates (object)". does this mean it can't be used on a enemy spell caster, or does it mean the caster won't get a save?
Some repeat that the Bard is the only class that can do a bit of everything and that makes it a good class.
lot of stuff
I basically agree with most of the stuff you say. The Bard just isn't good enough. But up to mid levels it's OK if you use a lot of scrolls/wands and if you don't boost your char to high.Yes, you need high char if you want a good DC. That shows that attack spells is not the road to go. I say it's a designer flaw. Frightening Tune, Charm monster, Gliterdust, Shadow Evocation, etc. all need a good DC and to get a good a DC you need a high charisma.
As for the whole buff class concept. It is boring to most people. Why did they make the cleric so powerful in 3.0? The 1:st ed cleric was just too boring. Good for the group but boring to play.
I think the bard as a buffer lacks some buff spells and utility spells and it would benefit from more spells know and some more spells per day. IMHO. That said, the Paizo Bard is far better than the 3.x Bard.
But why have a bard class? Well some people like it and the class been around for a long time.
James Jacobs wrote:
Best reason I can think of: Because the Editor-in-Chief's favorite class is the bard. :-)
May the Editor-in-Chief grant us some feedback on
We have no arcane caster in our group. Our PC Bard is fine, but she is dependent on scrolls and wands since she only has three 3:d level spells. This drains the group economically. In a big fight Haste and good hope is usually cast. Leaving the bard with one 3:d level spell for the rest of the day. During our last session she started with Good hope + perform, then haste + perform. Minutes later we meet the boss. Good hope was still in effect. First spell used in new fight was dispel magic since she had to help an ally. Then she was out of 3:d level spells. First and second level spells are not that great. Grease is usfull and so is Glitterdust, but the last is less powerful after the nerf. A good nerf IMHO.
Again, the rounds per day mechanics is just great.