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I vote in Favor of Initiative as a skill... if for no other reason as it makes sense.
1) if no one puts ranks in it, they have exactly the same initiative as they have now - so it is no change to those characters.
2) for those characters where it becomes a class skill - spending a mere 1 skill point gets them a 4 point boost in initiative (thats worth a feat for 1 skill rank - sweet)
3) i don't see it as a tax for anyone except rogue - and they get tons of skill points anyway
4) as for backwards compatibility - just use the monsters init as written until the new Pathfinder MM comes out - it really won't make that big a difference (i'm running a Pathfinder campaign using 2nd Darkness with very little modification, what i do i do on the fly, and it works just fine - yes the PC's are a bit more powerful and this would give them slightly better initiative - but it is fairly easy to compensate for at the table)
5) initiative as it stands is sort of a stepchild - it conforms to no system or subsystem - it is totally on its own - wrapping it into skills actually simplifies it and codifies it within the rules (as in which spells will add bonuses to initiative rolls etc.) - this simpifies the rules, which was at a certain level the overall objective
I like it in the skill list
A
1) if no one puts ranks in it, they have exactly the same initiative as they have now - so it is no change to those characters.
this statement is not even false
IF being the keyword
don't give the monkey the key to the banana plantation
I think Agi Hammerthief is onto something here. Going first has always been the domain of the rogue, scout, and ranger. But what about the cleric who senses something is up with the NPC the party is talking to and prepares himself right before the guy pulls out a sword and attacks?
I think Initiative should be either a Dexterity OR Wisdom based check. It wouldn't overpower many classes.
"Oh, whoop de doo, the cleric goes first, what do you do?"
"I hold my action until someone gets hurt - then I heal him"
If a cleric can sense the goblins running down the corridor first or realize when the duke is lying to the party he shouls have a bit of an edge when it comes time to start fighting. He has literally seen it coming.
All I can say here is no.
Skills shouldn't be solely combat focused, that's what feats are supposed to be for the most part.
You want skills to give a character a set of abilities that are useful in non-combat situations.
I agree with this !!!
Moreover, we don't need a skill that will be essential for some (Rogues) and nearly useless for others.
Keep initiative as it is !!
Plus, I'm not sure I'd want to conflate reflexive defensive measures with making and implementing quick decisions. Feat and skill choices both seem better suited to capture what a high initiative bonus should mean, the ability to quickly react in a decisive mannerpretty good point, count me with the Nays to change then:
I'd feel taxed if it where made a skillInit = Dex + Wis + Feat would reflect the "ability to quickly react in a decisive manner" a bit more than just the Dex bonus
low Dex = too slow
low Wis = undecisiveI guess when adding two modifiers the Bonus from the Feat would have to increase to grant the same edge over people who haven't got it
I like these points except for one thing.
The Monk Class awards a Wis bonus to AC.That actually reflects indecisiveness better.
Having playing sport at a high level, I can definitely say the "zone" happens when everything seems to slow down.
Every second seems like it takes 10 seconds - no lie
To me, this is what an Improved Initiative should reflect...
Being able to charge off the snap of ball and take one to two steps, as a Nosetackle, before any Offensive lineman even begins to move thier body, including the Center.
At that level instinctive speed of thought and action, you have lots of time to analyse and change what you're gonna do the third step as you finish passing through the O-line completely untouched.
You live by the micro second.
There's no Wisdom to it.
If undecisive, you double fake yourself and are left wide open to be nailed flat on your back when everyone else catches up.
You still move just as fast, just not as smart ;)
Wisdom is not Initiative, it's knowing what to do when.
To know what to do, you need Intelligence.
That doesn't effect how fast you go either.
It just means you can prepare your actions before you move and remember to do so.
"psst...what's the snap count again?" rotfl
Training does not bestow this "zone" either, it's not a skill.
It's an ability, an Extraordinary Ability.
It just suddenly happens the first time, like when gaining a Feat.
You don't decide when. Your coach certainly never gets to.
If it were a skill, EVERY sportsplayer would train in it, and every coach would add doing so to thier regime.
That is not the case though.
No one has a valid scientific explanation for it.
The thing just happens.
It's simply a feat.
Dex represents agility and speed of movement.
Dex = Speed
Sprinters have more power than endurance.
Sprinters develop thier fast twitch muscle fibres most.
Marathon runners develop thier slow twitch muscle fibres most.
Sprinter are fastest but last the shortest time (distance)
Strength = Speed
Speed = a bonus to Initiative
Speed is not Initiative though, it just helps.
There is only a +/- 0.5 second variation in reflex and response time amongst humans, inclusive of Olympic athletes and the common joe shmoe, of the same age.
That's reality, like it or not.
However, 14-22 year old humans are 1 full second slower than 25 year old humans.
Youth and Middle Aged characters should receive at least a -1 age modifier to Initiative.
Elderly -2, Venerable -5
This should reflect real world statistics "good enough".
Dice do the rest for that part of Initiative.
Since there's only one type of Strength in the system.
Just like there only one type of Dexterity in the system.
They should apply equally. Half each, because only half of each of these Stats apply
Sorry casters, but thinking fast and moving fast are not the same thing.
You can think as fast as you want, it won't move your body any faster.
With that said, you need fast thinking to use Speed effectively.
Speed of thought limits Initiatiative like a throttle.
Sure you move fast, but if you don't think fast you can only do one action, not think of several and choose, or follow through with another action or several, a single minded bullet.
One action, one attack.
Seems to me, if we're gonna refer to reality for this, do the following...
Inititative = (Str + Dex - Con)/2 + Feats
Sugar coat it all you want, but if Con > Str + Dex,
then you're kinda pudgy around the edges, like a sack of potatoes :)
Int = Maximum potential attacks per round
That's not what you start with, you need training, you need knowledge.
BAB bestows extra attacks, just no more than Int in total.
BAB still increases per level afterwards, just not the number of attacks.
Bump up your Int and vwallah, you get more attacks.
Now you need to know what best to do when. Wisdom is knowing what to do when.
Wis = Maximum number of Feats that can be used AND different actions that can be performed, COMBINED, as a total, in a round.
A wisdom check is required to change your declared intended actions for the round, at anytime during your turn, including delaying any remaining time left for actions and/or feats.
That pretty much covers combat in the trenches from a football player's perspective ;)
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I'm not sure that I agree with the posters who claim that making initiative a skill would be a "skill tax". Most of the characters that I've played never took Improved Initiative, so I usually avoided a "feat tax". I probably wouldn't invest many skill points in initiative, either, unless it made sense for the build.
Having said that, I think that although initiative as a skill worked just fine in Star Wars Saga Edition, I have my doubts that it would work as well for Pathfinder, mostly because of high Hit Dice creatures potentially having astronomical initiative scores.
The Reflex save as initiative idea sounds better to me. That would get my vote. I do like the idea of a system that (gradually) scales initiative upwards for more experienced characters, as this seems to do the job.
two quick thoughts after sleeping on it, to maybe kick around...
I understand this is a skill topic, but since Initiative is not a skill atm, examining all possible alternatives is a healthy thing to do I reckon ;)
maybe something like...
Advanced Initiative:
preq: Improved Initiative
when roll a natural "20" for Initiative, may take two full-round actions, or the equivalent thereof.
and/or
Initiative rule option:
those with a modified Initiative roll > 20
get one suprise round and deduct 20 from Initiative
then use remaining Initiative as normal with all characters
I disagree with Initiative automatically scaling by level or voluntarily as a skill.
Both make better Initiative something mundane
Both lessen the impact of the dice roll
Both mean boosting monsters to maintain CR for a balanced game
I'm a definite no vote against creating the core problems with 3.5 Epic all over again
* steps down off the soapbox, shuts up, and quietly waits to be pelted with soggy rotten vegies * :P
I would leave initiative as it is - i.e., outside the skill system. As others pointed out, it is not a "skill" that is much useful outside of combat situations.
But I *would* like to see the static +4 bonus of the feat somehow improved.
Something like :
Improved Initiative (Combat)
Your quick reflexes allow you to react quickly to danger.
Benefit : You get an additional 1d4 bonus on initiative checks.
Special : You can gain Improved Initiative multiple times. Each time you take the feat, you use the next greater dice value (1d6, 1d8, 1d10 -- maximum 1d12) as the bonus to the initiative check.
Some love for the d12 dice :-)
Something that AEG never learnt - a fixed ability, such as a feat, should never give a variable ability, such as +1d4 initiative. The player is always going to complain if he rolls a 1 and only 25% of players will actually roll the previous effect of the feat, rendering rather pointless.