Paragon of Champions's page

I'm working on an RPG/Campaign Setting that I have interests in adapting to Pathfinder in the future. The game takes place in a virtual reality simulation with a scripting system that enables supernatural effects. A tech-savvy character can code their own scripts and execute them. I envisioned that a character would install a system that grants them X number of "slots" that they can allocate to scripts that function as at-will abilities. However, reallocation takes at least an hour to do so.

However, I want to create an elegant system for players to create their own scripts, but I'm torn on how to do that. I've looked at Words of Power and wasn't happy with how they did it. I'm considering having scripts consisting of a list of "functions" that do very simple things. The order of commands is important. For example, if you want a script that sets a chair on fire, you would have it look like this:

SetTarget(chair)
EmitFire()

What are your thoughts on this? Any suggestions?

Dear Cyrad,

You might want to read through the following wiki pages concerning a Japanese light novel series called The Irregular At Magic High School. Magic in the novels operate much like you are describing:

Casters wear special processing units which have a limited capacity with regards to the number of activation sequences they may possess (i.e. Spell Slots) and which assemble an executable program capable of generating a particular effect (i.e. Spell). The casters, through their ability, set all variables of the program and execute the program.

• Casting Assistant Device (CAD)
  
• Activation Sequence
  
• Magic Sequence
  
• Psion
  
• Eidos
  
• Magic Calculation Area
  
• Classifications of Magic
  
• Ancient Magic
  

I hope this information helps.

Best Regards,

Paragon of Champions

Dear All:

I have begun work on the specs for the Feol Viera. Let me know what you think.

Feol [Humanoid(Viera)]

+2 Wis, +2 Cha, -2 Con: Their celestial heritage makes them more beautiful and sociable than their forest dwelling kin, but they are still just as frail and vigilant.
Medium: Feol are medium creatures and receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Fast: Feol have a base speed of 40 feet.
Spell Resistance, Lesser: Feol gain spell resistance equal to 6 plus their character level.
Emissary: Once per day, a feol can roll twice when making a Bluff or Diplomacy check and take the better roll.
Gifted Linguist: Feol gain a +4 racial bonus on Linguistics checks, and they learn one additional language every time they put a rank in the Linguistics skill.
Silver Tongued: Feol gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks. In addition, when they use Diplomacy to shift a creature's attitude, they can do so up to three steps up rather than just two.
Quick Reactions: Feol receive Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
Darkvision: Feol can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Linguist: Feol begin play speaking Common and Celestial. Viera with high intelligence scores can choose any language they wish(except Druidic and any other secret languages.

Here's a list of abilities I was considering as either alternate racial traits or traits to replace one or more of those above: Lifebound, Curiosity, Gift of Tongues, Sociable, Urbanite, Envoy, Heavenborn, and Seducer.

I was strongly considering giving them either Celestial Resistance or Exalted Resistance instead of Spell Resistance, Lesser, but decided against it as it would put them at 16 RP and I am trying to keep them close in power to the viera I have already made (i.e. 15 RP or less). Well, let me know what you guys think!

I know you probably want to just create the races yourself with some advice from the boards. That's pretty much how I am, but I found a site which you might take some inspiration from: Check out the Viera at Final Fantasy d20. While the race is a bit skill heavy (too much for my tastes), the guy or gal running it included alternate racial features and favored class bonuses as well. Moogles are there, as well as many of the other races.

Hope it helps.

Dear Da'ath:

Thanks for providing the link. I had no idea such a thing even existed.

Yeah I would remove both Elven Magic and Jumper from the Moggle. Having Elven Magic a trade off for Tinker/Craftsmen works well too. Jumper on the other I just don't see them having. Moggles have kind of short stubby legs.

As for the Viera, I counted Cat's Luck as 2 RP when it is only 1, so it just 15 RP total. If you like Nimble Faller, you can always remove Cat's Luck. I guess quick reactions is not that bad starting out. It means that you can never take Improved Initiative as a feat, since you already receive it and a bonus feat from the race. Keep in mind that the Spell-like ability is only a 4rp on a technicality. It is a 5th level druid spell, it's only a 4th level ranger spell because rangers get their 4th level of spells at 13/14th level. I still don't think it would be too broken though, because it's casting time of 10 minutes you really will not want to use all that often.

A good way to look at making races is look at the classes they would naturally feed into, and then make one of that class.

The Moggles are actually pretty generalized, the best class I can see for them is a Wizard, or Alchemist. Being small, does not hurt either class, and both dex and int helps those classes. But the rest of their abilities do not feed into either class much. Except if you are making a Magic Item creation wizard.

The Viera on the other hand scream ranger. With the +2 dex, +2 Wis is feeds a ranged ranger. the -2 con is a set back, but you make up for that with all their racial abilities. They would also be natural druids. So try making a 1st level then a 5th/10th/ or 15th level character of each class.

Dear Tenshi no Shi:

I had not really thought about either race in terms of classes; I did think about the various roles they might fill in my world.

For the moogles, I imagine them in competition with dwarves for craftsmanship of buildings and weapons and in competition with gnomes for other forms of technology.

I see the viera as the reclusive guardians of forests and the hidden wilds in my world, often teaming with nymphs, druids, and rangers to combat monstrous races encroaching upon such lands or the individuals and groups who might exploit the land in a way that is not sustainable.

Thanks for the suggestion though: I might try doing that once I finalize the Feol Viera.

Hmm... yeah they are a lot better now. I would still argue with removing Elven magic from Moggles, and Nimble Faller from Viera. I also think that Improved initiative is too much for the Viera as well. I would just reduce it to a +2 to initiative like the trait reactionary. With them having a +2 dex, the +4 to initiative makes that a +5. It's just too much imho. You could also remove jumper from Moggles. I know that Pathfinder has quite a few 13-15 races, but they tend to be either specialized, or really just overpowered compared to the rest.

You are right about the moggles, I had forgotten in FF 12 there are only a few that flew. Just thought a race capable of slow flight would be an interesting addition to a game. Maybe can make a variant where they are tiny, get a -4 to str... hmmm.

Are you going to try to make the rest of the races from Ivalice? Or did just the Moggles and Viera speak to you?

Edit: I did the math and Moggles are 16 as well as Viera are 16 right now.

Dear Tenshi no Shi:

LOL. I actually meant to remove Jumper from moogles: Looks like I missed it! What do you think about making Jumper an alternate racial trait, available to players in exchange for Vestigial Wings? I could also make Elven Magic an alternate racial trait in exchange for both Craftsman and Master Tinker. If I do that, the moogles then have 11 RP which sounds pretty reasonable.

As for the viera, your opinion is noted with regards to Quick Reactions, but I intended the viera to be quick, including the possibility of being the first to strike. I may decide to use Reactionary as per your suggestion in the future however; I might just end up nixing Nimble Faller as well, reducing the total RP by 2 to 13 RP.

Bond to the Land (2 RP)
Cat's Luck (1 RP)
Camouflage (1 RP)
Nimble Faller (2 RP)
Silent Hunter (2 RP)
Quick Reactions (2 RP)
Fast (1 RP)
Spell-Like Ability (4 RP)

All other traits are for 0 RP for the viera. So, unless I missed something, they should be at 15 RP.

I don't plan on doing the other races from Ivalice with the exception of the Feol Viera. If I do any of the others aside from that, they'll probably be those from Final Fantasy Tactics A2 as that is the game I am most familiar with. ;)

I am, of course, always open to suggestions. You've been quite helpful so far, especially since this is my first time building a race.

Both races are too powerful to be playable races.

You really went a little overboard with adding abilities.

I am guessing from the Viera that you are trying to go for Ivalice Final Fantasy, such as FF 12, Tactics, etc.

In that case might I make a few suggestions.

First the Moggles. Give them a -2 to Str. They are small sized, and as such makes since to be weaker then normal, besides moggles are known as weaklings, unless they are summons. Make Craftsmen into the Gnome's Obsessive.

Obsessive: Gnomes receive a +2 racial bonus on a Craft or Profession skill of their choice.

Master Tinker is a good to keep. Low-light vision is okay, though I never saw evidence for this in the games. The eternal hope I also like for them. Of course leave them slow.

Toss out the rest, but add this instead, Give them a fly speed of 10-15ft clumsy. The fly racial ability says 30ft clumsy I know, but they are not very nimble or fast in the games. To make up for the reduction in speed give them Hover as a bonus feat.

That Gives you.

0 RP for abilities
0 RP for size
-1 RP for Slow
2 RP for Obsessive
2 RP for Master Tinker
2 RP for Low-light
2 RP for Hover
2 RP for Eternal Hope
4 RP for fly if you keep it 30ft clumsy, which would be good too, but I would argue like 2-3 RP is you make it 10-15 ft.

So between 11-13 RP, which is not that too high.

Why give them fly? First off in Ivalice they can, in many games they can actually, and it makes them a very unique PC race.

Now for Viera.

I would go like +2 dex, +2 wis or cha, then -2 Con. They are not really shown to be stronger then Humans.

Strangely I am fine with Fast as Viera are fast. I would not give them Sprinter on top of that though. Silent Hunter is also good, and camouflague. Get rid of the rest, but add this.

Commune with Nature 1/day. It's a 4th level Ranger spell that does not damage, so it works with Greater Spell-like ability. It also has a casting time of 10 minutes, so it's powerful for a 1st level character, but not...

Dear Tenshi no Shi:

I am indeed trying to create these races based on the Ivalice setting. I like your tips and have changed the moogles and vieras slightly: Tell me what you think. And for those who may be joining this thread in progress, I welcome your input as well.

For the moogles, I definitely do not want them to fly outright without some work; In the Ivalice setting, very few are able to fly ("Apart from a minority of moogles actually small enough for their wings to support, they generally cannot fly." See Final Fantasy XII section on web page listed in my earlier post). Your suggestions did help me decide what to cut: I believe the new specs total for 15 RP.

Moogles [Humanoid(Moogle)]

+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Str: Moogles are great with their hands lending to their excellence in engineering and technology. Their small size makes them inherently weak.
Small: +1 size bonus to AC and on attack rolls; -1 penalty on combat maneuver checks and to CMD; +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Slow Speed: Moogles have a base speed of 20 feet.
Cornered Fury: Whenever a moogle is reduced to half its hit points or fewer and has no conscious allies within 30 feet, it gains a +2 racial bonus on melee attack rolls and to Armor Class.
Eternal Hope: Moogles gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against fear and despair effects. Also, once per day, after a natural roll of 1 on a d20 roll, a moogle may reroll and use the second result.
Craftsman: Moogles gain a +2 racial bonus on all Craft or Profession checks to create objects from metal or stone.
Master Tinker: Moogles gain a +1 bonus on Disable Device and Knowledge(Engineering) checks. They are also treated as proficient with any weapon they have personally crafted.
Elven Magic: Moogles gain a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance. In addition, they also receive a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks made to identify the properties of magic items.
Jumper: Moogles are always considered to have a running start when making Acrobatics checks to jump.
Vestigial Wings: Moogles have wings that do not provide the lift required for actual flight, but do have enough power to aid flight attained by some other method, and grant a +4 racial bonus on Fly checks.
Low-Light Vision: Moogles can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Languages: Moogles begin play speaking Common and Kupo. Moogles with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, and Sylvan.

For the viera, I would like to thank you a lot for the Commune with Nature suggestion: It goes very well with their "People of the Wood" flavor. The new viera specs total for 14 RP.

Viera [Humanoid(Viera)]

+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Con: Viera are swift and vigilant hunters, but their lithe frames make them very delicate.
Medium: Viera are medium creatures and receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Fast: Viera have a base speed of 40 feet.
Bond to the Land: Viera gain a +2 dodge bonus when in forested terrain.
Cat's Luck(Ex): Once per day, when a viera makes a Reflex saving throw, it can roll the saving throw twice and take the better result. It must decide to use this ability before attempting the saving throw.
Camouflage: Viera gain a +4 racial bonus on Stealth checks while within forested areas.
Nimble Faller: Viera land on their feet even when they take lethal damage from a fall. Furthermore, they gain a +1 racial bonus to their CMD against trip attempts.
Silent Hunter: Viera reduce the penalty for using Stealth whie moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a -20 penalty.
Quick Reactions: Viera receive Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
Spell-Like Ability: A viera can use Commune with Nature once per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability equals the viera's class level.
Languages: Viera begin play speaking Common and Sylvan. Viera with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Aquan, Auran, Draconic, Elven, Kupo, Ignan, and Terran.

For more information on Moogles, please consult the following web page: Moogles

For more information on Viera, please consult the following web page: Viera

Dear All:

I have spent some time using the race builder rules from the Advanced Race Guide to create two new races based on the moogles and vieras from the Final Fantasy Series.

I am looking for opinions regarding balance such as what abilities you might cut, add, or replace to make these any better. So far, the moogles rank at 21 RP and the vieras rank at 20 RP.

The specs for both can be found below. Let me know what you guys think.

Moogles [Humanoid(Moogle)]

+2 Dex, +2 Int: Moogles are great with their hands lending to their excellence in engineering and technology.
Small: +1 size bonus to AC and on attack rolls; -1 penalty on combat maneuver checks and to CMD; +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Slow Speed: Moogles have a base speed of 20 feet.
Cornered Fury: Whenever a moogle is reduced to half its hit points or fewer and has no conscious allies within 30 feet, it gains a +2 racial bonus on melee attack rolls and to Armor Class.
Eternal Hope: Moogles gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against fear and despair effects. Also, once per day, after a natural roll of 1 on a d20 roll, a moogle may reroll and use the second result.
Beguiling Liar: Moogles gain a +4 racial bonus on Bluff checks to convince an opponent that what they are saying is true when they tell a lie.
Craftsman: Moogles gain a +2 racial bonus on all Craft or Profession checks to create objects from metal or stone.
Master Tinker: Moogles gain a +1 bonus on Disable Device and Knowledge(Engineering) checks. They are also treated as proficient with any weapon they have personally crafted.
Elven Magic: Moogles gain a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance. In addition, they also receive a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks made to identify the properties of magic items.
Jumper: Moogles are always considered to have a running start when making Acrobatics checks to jump.
Vestigial Wings: Moogles have wings that do not provide the lift required for actual flight, but do have enough power to aid flight attained by some other method, and grant a +4 racial bonus on Fly checks.
Kneecapper: Moogles gain a +4 racial bonus on combat maneuver checks to trip an opponent.
Low-Light Vision: Moogles can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Languages: Moogles begin play speaking Common and Kupo. Moogles with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, and Sylvan.

Viera [Humanoid(Viera)]

+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con: Viera are strong and swift hunters, but their lithe frames make them very delicate.
Medium: Viera are medium creatures and receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Fast: Viera have a base speed of 40 feet.
Bond to the Land: Viera gain a +2 dodge bonus when in forested terrain.
Cat's Luck(Ex): Once per day, when a viera makes a Reflex saving throw, it can roll the saving throw twice and take the better result. It must decide to use this ability before attempting the saving throw.
Camouflage: Viera gain a +4 racial bonus on Stealth checks while within forested areas.
Nimble Faller: Viera land on their feet even when they take lethal damage from a fall. Furthermore, they gain a +1 racial bonus to their CMD against trip attempts.
Silent Hunter: Viera reduce the penalty for using Stealth whie moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a -20 penalty.
Quick Reactions: Viera receive Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
Fleet-Footed: Viera receive Run as a bonus feat and a +2 racial bonus on initiative checks.
Sprinter: Viera gain a +10 foot racial bonus to their speed when using the charge, run, or withdraw actions.
Poison Use: Viera are skilled with poison and never risk poisoning themselves when applying poison to weapons.
Scent(Ex): See Bestiary, page 304 for details.
Languages: Viera begin play speaking Common and Sylvan. Viera with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Aquan, Auran, Draconic, Elven, Kupo, Ignan, and Terran.

Mantles should use the shoulders slot as they are essentially capes. Think about the Batman: His cape is sometimes called the "Mantle of the Bat." Paizo will probable make an errata addressing this as some point in the future.

An often-heard complaint is that Sunder is useless, or unfair, or destroying your own loot. Even though the flavor is cool, people will yell at you if you use it.

So here's a thought: what if you could Sunder the Natural Armor of monsters? It's taking the idea of Sundering a hydra's head to the general case: opening up a soft spot on the monster for the rest of the party to make use of. It the case of some monsters (giant crabs, scorpions) this makes a lot of sense.

Basically, if the NA gets to Broken, the monster's defense starts to get impaired; and when the NA is Destroyed, well, the monster gets a whole lot easier to hit.

You'd need a formula to determine the NA's hp and hardness. Factors should probably be Size, NA itself maybe, and maybe Constitution?

I don't have any ideas for how you might do this, but it sounds pretty cool: I'm going to be keeping an eye on this thread. ;)

Paragon of Champions wrote:

Any ideas for refinement of the concept or possible means of destruction?

Destruction of artifacts are usually a major task or series of tasks that generally follow 1 of the following themes.

1. UnCreation. Frodo's returning of the One Ring to the volcano in which it was forged.

2. Anathema using a process to neutralise it's inherent nature and then applying a particular destructive force.

Dear LazarX:

What do you think of the following as a means of destruction:

If the Dawnbreaker Rose is ever used by an evil or undead wielder to kill "One of exceptional innocence" (e.g. a unicorn), the rosebud atop the bow wilts and it forever becomes a masterwork composite longbow with a +3 Strength Rating: It may never again be magically enhanced.

I'd like to know what the rest of you think as well. Look forward to any new feedback.

Dear All:

I do have a question concerning the rules for enhancement bonuses: For a shield, does the +X value in front of the name of a shield only include the enhancement bonus to the shield?

For example, if I have a Masterwork Mithral Buckler that provides a +3 bonus to AC and then upgrade it to a +5 magic shield, is it a +8 Mithral Buckler?

One suggestion as far as spell casters go could be to have them make a caster level check every time they cast a spell. If they roll a natural one and then confirm with a roll less than ten, something really bad happens. Otherwise, they just lose the spell. Just a possible suggestion.

I've been following the back and forth for some time now and just wanted to pop in here. I totally agree, the system is flawed, but I think the alignments are still needed as guidelines for those seeking to keep to a certain alignment. In home brewing, anyone can do whatever they want. I'd just want to throw in my 2 cp about how to look at the alignments and my own experience playing a paladin, as well as the other good, neutral, or evil alignments.

First let me say the Paladin in all its Lawful Goodness is my favorite class. Has been in every incarnations from AD&D to now. As for the alignments, I look at them in this in this light.

Unlike what some have said, I think that having the political (or whatever you called it) axis listed first is correct. Law (order, organization, creation), Chaos (destruction, disorder), and Neutral (balance) are the building blocks of all things. It is this axis that the universe is founded on.

Second is the moral axis which alters, tempers, and moulds the others. Good (mercy, compassion, love, kindness, righteous, most good for the most people), Evil (wicked, corrupt, vile, enjoys inflicting pain, worries about self over everyone and everything else, malevolent, vicious), and Neutral (balance).

Alignments are not personality types. You can have a LG character who is arrogant, self-righteous, stubborn, etc (look at some of the Knights of Solamnia in Dragonlance), or even a CE character who is cunning, and plans things out, even loves another being, etc., so long as he creates the most chaos and evil as possible.

So if we look at the alignments in this way, they would translate to this. Again this is my opinion, but I think this is the general outlook my most people.

LG = Bringing about the greatest good for all through adherence to laws (civil laws, godly dogma, personal codes of honor), but tempered by compassion, kindness, and mercy, sacrifice, with leeway for what is both best for all and the individual involved; bringing about the greatest...

Loved your post, sir! Great work!

It's been debated for decades, it's presence has spanned continents and generations, and it's taken hundreds of posts in this thread alone.

And yet, we still can't really agree on what these alignments even mean!

Alignment is an artificial construct intended to simulate and enforce role-playing character personalities by pigeon-holing them into nine poorly-defined, completely inhuman and unnatural bins. I think that, in the end, it can be concluded that alignment does a tragically-poor job of simulating personalities, and an even worse job of enforcing role-playing, as can be seen by the history of D&D being littered by horror stories about "Chaotic Stupid", "Lawful Stupid", "Stupid Evil", "Stupid Good", and "True Stupid" characters who are role-played to the letter of the Alignment Law, rather than its spirit.

I say again: toss out this wretched, ancient relic of the earliest days of formal role-playing games, when game designers didn't know yet quite how to make these games work, or how to explain playing a role to the first generation of pioneering RPG players! Alignment is a poor substitute for the imagination of players in their PC characterizations.

** spoiler omitted **...

Very well said! XD

Alignment is not morally relative. That's where your problem is.

Just because a guy sacrifices outlanders on the altar to his god thinks he's lawful good doesn't mean the universe thinks he is. The universe is more important. The person's opinion does not matter at all.

The alignments in the game are based on western morality, NOT player's interpretations of what they think is the alignments. Just because you represent the highest ideal of the ethos and morality of your society doesn't mean you aren't LE. Your society just thinks LE is the best there is, and you STILL aren't LG. LG the alignment wants nothing to do with you, and if you think LG is wrong, well, the Alignments are profound forces that don't care about your opinion.

Having a drink is not chaotic. Being an alcoholic is somewhat chaotic...but being an alcoholic is also extreme, is not something you occasionally do. It's not the same argument. (I'll also note that paladins are immune to disease, and alcoholism is an addiction, which is a disease). You can also, for instance, be an alcoholic, and never take a drink again.

And no, Dexter is not LG because he perpetrates evil upon the evil. He's is killing them because he has a sick and twisted desire to hunt them down, hurt them, and watch them die. The universe isn't watching him kill two threats to society...it's watching a demented man get his jollies offing another human being, and hiding in plain sight so nobody catches HIM.

Murdering an evil man is literally no better then murdering a good man...murder is murder, and murder is evil. Dexter isn't killing to protect or defend others. His action can be completely the same as a desperate avenger, but the why is the important thing here...and his why is all Evil. Dexter is textbook amoral NE.

And God, if you think being LG gives you the right to commit evil or chaotic acts upon Evil creatures, you don't know what Good means at ALL.

Actions defining everything matter in Grimdark. PF is not Grimdark. The why is very, very important...

Dear Aelryinth:

Morality is by definition relative as it is a system of doctrines and morals (the principles or rules of right conduct). To determine what is right, you must first determine what is wrong: One cannot exist without the other.

In addition, that Pathfinder assumes Western morality implies there are other systems of morality which further implies that morality is not absolute. Otherwise, you would not have had to qualify or differentiate as to the type of morality we may be discussing.

Furthermore, the universe for the purposes of this discussion would be the GM. If the GM wants to allow a non-lawful good paladin, it is well within his rights to do so. If the GM allows the paladin to be of lawful good alignment and commit acts of horrible violence against any NPC who is evil without any penalty to their abilities, that's within his rights as well. The beauty of this game is that a GM can modify the rules as he or she pleases to suit his needs and the needs or desires of his players: Nothing should stand in the way of that.

P.S. I do not appreciate your insulting my character simply because you disagree with me: I shared my opinion on the matter without committing libel and I expect other posters to do the same.

MrSin wrote:

I don't think people are suggestion playing LG sociopaths.

Well, you did suggest playing a LG character who could go out and intemittently do Evil and Chaotic deeds without affecting his alignment, didn't you?

Isn't that exactly what Dexter does? I was just making an example of your statement. He occasionally goes out and tortures, then murders a serial killer he's tracked down. The rest of the time, he acts just like a morally upstanding citizen. He's even a forensic expert, helps solve crimes!

It was the best example I could think of your argument, and it kind of showcased how bad an argument it was, I thought.

If you can think of a better example I'd know, I'm all ears.

==Aelryinth

Dear Aelryinth:

MrSin's argument is indeed logical using your own counterexample if you consider the following: The application of a negative to a negative statement is a positive statement.

For example, if one were to say, "You cannot not run on the grass," then the statement logically translates to "You can run on the grass."

To use Dexter as an example, and though I have not seen the show I am aware of the concept of the character and approve of his behavior, even if you were to objectively apply an alignment of chaotic evil, he would still be considered lawful good. He is a chaotic evil character that only perpetrates legal or moral wrongs against evil characters.

Does a lawful good character who perpetrates a legal or moral wrong against an evil character not do the same?

Once you realize that morality is relative, alignment goes out of the window.

Take for example a terrorist: He or she doesn't think he or she is evil like his or her would-be victims would. If anything, they probably think they are lawful good, avenging some wrong they feel was done against their people or beliefs: Someone who is lawful good is usually a zealot.

Alignment is really only there for the purpose of the spells and abilities that reference them and nothing more. I say let the players decide on an alignment at first with no restrictions on class and then if in the course of gameplay, they perform several acts that you as GM consider counter to their declared alignment, you change it to an alignment you feel is more appropriate.

Borthos Brewhammer wrote:

It's not that we don't think you shouldn't be performing this exercise, it just seems like the exercise itself is superfluous. Making the bow would be great. It would just be a lot easier to call it an artifact instead of doing all the math.

Constructive criticism, it isn't necessarily a +15 bow. It has +15 enchantments worth of abilities, but the enhancement bonus itself, what it adds to atk/dmg rolls should be in front of the bow. If I'm reading it right, it should be called a +5 composite longbow in your description.

(+3 Strength Modifier and +5 Enhancement Bonus; additional +2 against evil outsiders; additional +2 against undead) the only thing you count is the Enhancement bonus in this sentence.

The +10 enchantment limit is not intended to be an open end door on how much of other types of magic should be piled onto a weapon.

Given that the estimated gold piece cost is on the order of a half million gold pieces, that pretty much puts it in artifact territory.

Dear LazarX:

I understand this is a weapon on par with possibly a minor artifact. As this is my first time creating a weapon for a campaign setting, I did not realize this until after I figured out everything I wanted the bow to do and did all of the math.

Perhaps, I should further clarify that I have no intentions of providing this weapon for purchase to PCs in my setting: It will be owned by a character based on Madoka Kaname from Puella Magi Madoka Magica and used as her signature weapon.

Furthermore, I have no intentions of telling PCs how they might create such an item. So, in this sense, it cannot be duplicated. Even more so, the price to construct the item both in terms of raw materials cost and in time are prohibitively expensive for PC characters.

In other words, the PCs have little chance of ever obtaining such an item for continuous personal use in my setting.

I can say that we agree it is an artifact, at least; I'd say it is a minor artifact at this point. Any ideas for refinement of the concept or possible means of destruction?

It's not that we don't think you shouldn't be performing this exercise, it just seems like the exercise itself is superfluous. Making the bow would be great. It would just be a lot easier to call it an artifact instead of doing all the math.

Constructive criticism, it isn't necessarily a +15 bow. It has +15 enchantments worth of abilities, but the enhancement bonus itself, what it adds to atk/dmg rolls should be in front of the bow. If I'm reading it right, it should be called a +5 composite longbow in your description.

(+3 Strength Modifier and +5 Enhancement Bonus; additional +2 against evil outsiders; additional +2 against undead) the only thing you count is the Enhancement bonus in this sentence.

Dear Borthos Brewhammer:

I see your point, but I enjoy being as thorough as possible when I have the time. I thank you for taking the time to help me with the math.

I assume you included the last line in your message to point out that it is the enhancement bonus added to the attack and damage roll that appears in front of the weapon name for attack rolls? If so, thanks for the clarification.

Paragon of Champions wrote:

Borthos Brewhammer wrote:

Or you could just say its an Artifact and call it a day.

Dear Borthos Brewhammer:

I could, but that would be too easy and where's the fun in that? ;)

The fun is in maintaining game coherency in not establishing this as an item that can be mass produced or duplicated.

Dear LazarX:

You have stated your opinion on this in a previous post to which I replied conveying why I am performing this exercise as well as the philosophy I am using for the particular campaign setting on which I am working.

Therefore, in my view, your most recent comment is superfluous. If you have no critiques that would better aid me in my process or serve as a suggestion to improve this item in some way, I see no need for you to continue with posts that appear to amount to "I don't believe you should be performing this exercise" especially considering this forum is for Suggestions, House Rules, and Homebrew which by definition deal with non-traditional concepts and ideas and are subject to GM fiat.

Dear All:

I have taken into account the suggestions and rules clarifications you have posted thus far and have revised the weapon accordingly. Below are the new specifications:

The Dawnbreaker Rose

“If someone tells me that it's wrong to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every time." - Madoka Kaname, Puella Magi Madoka Magica, Episode 12, “My Very Best Friend.”

This +15 composite longbow appears the picture image of a rose that has yet to bloom, but when drawn, an arrow of pink light as bright as the sun is strung and the rosebud atop this majestic weapon unfurls to reveal its beauty.

Composite Longbow with +3 Strength Rating
- 400 GP (4000 SP) for Base Price
- 300 GP (3000 SP) for Masterwork Quality
- Craft(Bows) DC 21 for Standard Component
- Craft(Bows) DC 20 for Masterwork Component
- Total Market Price: 700 GP (7000 SP)
- Cost for Raw Materials: (1/3) * (700 GP) = 233 GP + 3 SP + 3 CP
- Cost for Raw Materials: 2334 SP (Rounded Up from 2333 SP + 3 CP)
Est. Time to Completion: 5 Weeks, 2 Days, 1 Hour, 8 Minutes, and 34 Seconds (Using A Minimum DC of 21 as the Basis)

Ranged Weapon Special Abilities To Be Added
1) +5 Enhancement Bonus to upgrade to magic weapon
2) +1 Bane[Outsiders(Evil)]
3) +1 Bane(Undead)
4) +1 Distance
5) +2 Holy
6) +1 Merciful
7) +1 Seeking
8) +3 Speed

Total Enhancement Bonus: +15 (Min. Caster Level of 25; Assume Epic Weapon Rules)
Total Base Price: (15) * (15) * (20000 GP) = 4500000 GP

Spell Effects To Be Added
• Haste: The movement speeds of the wielder and up to five (5) allies within a 100-ft. radius receive a +30-ft. enhancement bonus to each of their modes of movement for up to 25 rounds per day. These rounds need not be consecutive.

• Magic Missile: When the bow is drawn and no arrow nocked, it produces an arrow of light that deals 2d6 points of force damage. When a standard or magical arrow is nocked, the damage due to the force effect is not applied to the ammunition.

If the wielder rolls and confirms a critical hit while using the force arrow, the arrow casts Sunburst, as the spell, upon hitting their target.

If the force arrow is fired into or passes through an area under the effect of any darkness spells of lower than 9th level, any such spells are instantly dispelled.

• Stabilize: Once per day, as a full round action, the wielder may nock and fire a force arrow vertically. If he or she does so, all allies within line of sight of the arrow who are dying automatically stabilize to zero (0) hit points.

Base Price for Haste Effect: (Caster Level of 25/Caster Level of 10) * (12000 GP) * (6 Individuals Affected) =
180000 GP

Base Price for Magic Missile Effect: (Spell Level 1) * (Min. Caster Level of 25) * (2000 GP) =
50000 GP

Base Price for Sunburst Effect: (Spell Level 8) * (Min. Caster Level of 25) * (2000 GP) =
400000 GP

Base Price for Stabilize Effect: (Spell Level 1) * (Min. Caster Level of 25) * (1000 GP) =
25000 GP

* Stabilize is a zero (0) level spell with an instantaneous duration and is use-activated for this weapon. Thus, spell level is (1/2) for the purposes of cost and we cannot multiply by zero (0) for the cost so I treated the spell level as one (1) and multiplied the 2000 GP by (1/2).

Total Base Price from Ranged Weapon Special Abilities and Spell Effects: 5155000 GP
Est. Time to Completion: 5155 Days

TOTAL COST: 5155700 GP
TOTAL EST. TIME TO COMPLETION: 5192 Days, 1 Hour, 8 Minutes, and 34 Seconds OR approx. 14 Years, 8 Months, 1 Week, and 5 Days.

Stat Block:
Attack Roll: +12 Composite Longbow +8(Min. +3 Strength Modifier and +5 Enhancement Bonus; additional +2 against evil outsiders; additional +2 against undead)

Damage Roll when using Force Arrow: 2d6 Force Damage +8 (Min. +3 Strength Modifier and +5 Enhancement Bonus; additional 2d6 +2 against evil outsiders; additional 2d6 +2 against undead; additional 2d6 against evil creatures; additional 1d6 when Merciful Ability is in effect)

All damage is nonlethal unless suppressed by the wielder and any miss chances, such as from concealment, are negated, including those afforded to incorporeal creatures due to the force effect.

Damage Roll when using Standard or Magic Arrows: 1d6 or 1d8 +8 (Min. +3 Strength Modifier and +5 Enhancement Bonus; additional 2d6 +2 against evil outsiders; additional 2d6 +2 against undead; additional 2d6 against evil creatures; additional 1d6 when Merciful Ability is in effect)

All damage is nonlethal unless suppressed by the wielder and any miss chances, such as from concealment, are negated.

This bow has a range of 220 feet to a maximum of 2200 feet (10 Range Increments).

Assuming there are no other problems, I would like now to hear opinions on the weapon itself. I look forward to your comments!

P.S. I have one more rules related question: Since Merciful is created via the spell Cure Light Wounds which is a positive energy effect, would the addition 1d6 of damage due to Merciful actually deal lethal damage against an undead creature until the wielder suppressed the ability?

Or you could just say its an Artifact and call it a day.

Dear Borthos Brewhammer:

I could, but that would be too easy and where's the fun in that? ;)

Paragon of Champions wrote:

And regarding the +1 and +5 bonus, I was asking that if I wanted a +5 enhancement bonus on the Composite Bow before adding any special abilities or spell effects, would I have to actually pay the 50000 GP as listed in the Core Rulebook? In other words, would this bow have to then be a +15 weapon for the purpose of cost?

In short, yes. As it relates to adding spell effects to magical items, you can cast at any level you like as long as you have the initial buy in for the spell itself. In other words, hast is a level three spell which would require a caster level of 5 as a minimum buy in for the spell. That said, its effect would be significantly different than what I think your looking for. Technically, you can add a spell effect that is outside your caster level by ignoring the casting requirements for caster level and spell at a cost of increasing the DC to craft by ten, so a crafter can theoretically craft anything so long as they can hit the spellcraft check.

Dear Trogdar:

Thanks for the clarification. Your comment is appreciated.

I am citing the Epic rules from 3rd Edition D&D., beside the DR/Epic damage reduction of some monster they haven't be ported in Pathfinder; but, so far, they are the only source for rules about epic items, and Pathfinder, to a point, is retro compatible with D&D.

A 12th level caster can't make that bow as (following the 3ed rules from the epic handbook), it require the Craft Epic weapon and armor feat, and that feat has a prerequisite of 28 ranks in spellcraft (if I recall correctly). That would be 25 ranks in Pathfinder (in 3.X you could buy 4 ranks in a class skill at level 1).
That mean that you need to be a 25th level character to take the feat.

+11 Enhancement Bonus: (11) * (11) * (20000 GP) = 2420000 GP
+12 Enhancement Bonus: (12) * (12) * (20000 GP) = 2880000 GP
+13 Enhancement Bonus: (13) * (13) * (20000 GP) = 3380000 GP

The cost for the +11 is the total of the 11 levels of enhancements,
the cost for the +12 is the total of the 12 levels of enhancements and so on.
If you mean to fin d what is the cost of adding a +1 enhancement to a weapon that is already a +11, you should subtract the +11 row from the +12 row, i.e. 2,880,000-2,420,000 = 460,000 gp to add a +1 ability to a +11 weapon.

Dear Diego Rossi:

So then, does the caster level of the creator of an item not affect the caster level of the item itself? In other words, if this item were to have a 25th level character who had not multiclassed after reaching level 20, would the item not then also have a caster level of 25?

And regarding the +1 and +5 bonus, I was asking that if I wanted a +5 enhancement bonus on the Composite Bow before adding any special abilities or spell effects, would I have to actually pay the 50000 GP as listed in the Core Rulebook? In other words, would this bow have to then be a +15 weapon for the purpose of cost?

Paragon of Champions wrote:

First, for magic arms and armor, there exists a prerequisite requiring the creator be at a caster level at least three times the total enhancement bonus of the item.

"Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met."

You can read this text on the following web page under Creating Magic Weapons: Magic Item Creation.

You have hit one of the numerous problems linked to the multiple uses of the same word.

A few citations and then an explanation:

PRD wrote:

Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat.
. . .
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.
. . .
Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
. . .
Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities
Base Price Modifier1
+1 bonus
1 Add to enhancement bonus on Table: Weapons to determine total market price.

While the enhancement bonus and the special abilities are...

Dear Diego Rossi:

So, this bow could be created by 12th level caster? This is what your comments imply as the Seeking special ability has the highest CL amongst the special abilities I listed.

As for the Haste problem, there are two (2) items in the Core Rulebook that appear to be similar to what I am trying to accomplish with this item: Boots of Speed and Horseshoes of Speed.

The Boots of Speed allow a wearer to act as though affected by Haste, but is not permanent. The Horseshoes of Speed bestow a permanent increase to the horse's base land speed.

If we use the text for the boots as a basis, it costs roughly 12000 GP in Pathfinder to increase movement speed by 30 feet for 10 rounds or one minute.

(60 Minutes) * (24 Hours) * (12000 GP) = 17280000 GP

If I instead decided to only allow 12 rounds per day for the effect (Since the item would have a CL of at least 12), the ability would be (12/10)ths the price of the boots.

(12/10) * (12000 GP) = 14400 GP

You know, I've been playing D&D/Pathfinder for at least the past 6 years and I still routinely confuse the line for range in a spell description for the actual range. LOL

So it would appear that I've possibly reached my first "Rules Be Damned" Moment in this exercise! :D

Concerning the Epic Weapon rules, which I have not read, I did derive the pattern for the cost and considered it in my earlier reply:

+11 Enhancement Bonus: (11) * (11) * (20000 GP) = 2420000 GP
+12 Enhancement Bonus: (12) * (12) * (20000 GP) = 2880000 GP
+13 Enhancement Bonus: (13) * (13) * (20000 GP) = 3380000 GP

But as it looks like my bow would cost more than 17 million gold pieces... It's definitely an Epic Weapon. LOL

On another note, the bow would only have +1 to attack and damage rolls instead of +5 unless I give it a +5 upgrade, wouldn't it?

Thanks for your comments so far. They've really helped.

Paragon of Champions wrote:

As for the pricing and time information, it is mostly for my sake: In my opinion, artifacts were created by someone and while their creation may be difficult, I wanted to get a sense of how it might be done. I didn't quite realize the bow would be a minor artifact until I went through the rules step by step to create it.

One of the most succinct ways to define an artifact is that of an item which breaks the rules. Often times, even the original creator of the artifact can't duplicate the process. (A major recurring theme in the Silmarillion, the mythology of Middle Earth). This is totally justifiable and one of the things that makes magic something other than science and technology.

Dear LazarX:

This may be true, but is not the philosophy I subscribe to for the campaign setting on which I am working. In my setting, magic is science and technology.

The Marvel Comics character Thor and his hammer, Mjolnir, are good analogies for how magic and the concept of godhood operate in my world. His hammer is essentially a piece of technology that cannot be currently replicated by humans while he is simply a member of an extremely long-lived and highly resilient extraterrestrial race.

In addition, as my outline of creating the weapon has shown, it is possible to describe this particular weapon using most of the rules for creating magic weapons. It is largely priced outside of the range of PCs and so cannot be considered a magic weapon in the traditional sense.

I called it an artifact as it was suggested its power is on par with such items by another poster and there exists no official term to describe items more powerful than traditional magic weapons, but which may be slightly less powerful than or otherwise different from artifacts: I'd prefer to call it a Legendary Weapon.

If I ever conceive of a weapon or other item that cannot be meaningfully described using the rules, then rules be damned! Part of the fun of roleplaying is the opportunities presented to be exposed to the impossible. :)

Minor correction to my post:

Merciful is available to ranged weapon, checking the table to very what is the plus of the item I missed it. So it is another +1 ability.

Paragon of Champions wrote:

- Total Enhancement Bonus: +8 (Min. Caster Level of 24)

Why? Beside making it more difficult to temporary dispel the bow power with a targeted dispel magic a high Caster Level would do nothing

Paragon of Champions wrote:

Spell Effects To Be Added

Haste: When making a full attack action, the wielder may make one additional attack at his or her full base attack bonus, plus any appropriate modifiers.

In addition, the movement speeds of the wielder and up to five (5) allies within a 150-foot radius receive a +30-foot enhancement bonus to each of their modes of movement.

Base Price For Effect:
(Spell Level 3) * (Min. Caster Level of 24) * (2000 GP) * (4) =
576000 GP

Note: The 4 multiplier is due to the duration of the spell being measured in rounds.

So it seem you are trying to add 2 different effects:

- always hasted wielder
- wielder and 5 allies within 150' radius get a +30 to all the movement bonuses.

For the always hasted wielder you use the Speed property of the weapon table (+3 enhancement). If there is a specific effect doing something you generally should use it.

The speed enhancement is tricky. Only Haste and Blessing of fervor give that kind of bonus, AFAIK, but it is only part of the Haste bonus. And the Area of effect of the bow power is way larger than the area that you can affect when casting haste (but the targets can later move out of the haste area and still keep the effects).

So let's look a possible pricing:
- Haste (spell level 3)
- widened, as if under the effect of a Widen Spell (Metamagic) feat (not exact, but close), +3 levels (ouch). It become a 6th level spell
- minimum caster level for a 6th level spell: 11th.
- haste has two effects that generally can't be used at the same time: the extra attack, that require a full round...

Dear Diego Rossi:

First, for magic arms and armor, there exists a prerequisite requiring the creator be at a caster level at least three times the total enhancement bonus of the item.

"Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met."

You can read this text on the following web page under Creating Magic Weapons: Magic Item Creation

Therefore, with a total enhancement bonus of +8, the creator would require a minimum caster level of 24.

Second, let's examine what the cost of adding Haste to a magic weapon in which all of its abilities are use-activated or continuous when added to the weapon in question by a level 24 caster:

(Spell Level 3) * (Min. Caster Level of 24) * (2000 GP) * (4) =
576000 GP

As discussed in your post, let us split the spell up into its component enhancements.

1) When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

2) A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls.

3) A hasted creature gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

4) All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject's normal speed using that form of movement.

Now, using your suggestion of multiplying the total cost by the proportion of the spell effects to be applied we obtain the cost as follows: (576000 GP) * (1/2) = 288000 GP

The question then becomes "Is this item more expensive if I use the Speed ranged weapon special ability or if I follow the above scheme?"

Ranged Weapon Special Abilities To Be Added

• +1 Enhancement Bonus to upgrade to magic weapon
  
• +1 Bane[Outsiders(Evil)]
  
• +1 Bane(Undead)
  
• +1 Distance
  
• +2 Holy
  
• +1 Merciful
  
• +1 Seeking
  
• +3 Speed

- Total Enhancement Bonus: +11 (Min. Caster Level of 33)

If we follow the pattern of squaring the enhancement bonus and multiplying by 2000 GP, then the total base price is as follows:

- Total Base Price: (11) * (11) * (2000 GP) = 242000 GP

Next, we must calculate the costs for the spell effects using the new minimum caster level of 33:

(Spell Level 3) * (Min. Caster Level of 33) * (2000 GP) * (4) * (1/4) =
198000 GP for the increased movement speed due to Haste

(Spell Level 1) * (Min. Caster Level of 33) * (2000 GP) =
66000 GP for the Magic Missile effect

(Spell Level 8) * (Min. Caster Level of 33) * (2000 GP) =
528000 GP for the Sunburst effect

Combining with the total market price of the masterwork bow, we have:
700 GP + 242000 GP + 198000 GP + 66000 GP + 528000 GP =
1034700 GP

If we use the scheme in which we do not use the Speed special ability, but instead add the Haste effects as use-activated or continuous effects, the cost is as follows:

700 GP + 129000 GP + 288000 GP + 48000 GP + 384000 GP =
848700 GP

I prefer using the more expensive option as it is closer to my first estimate. The total time to create the item would then be 1072 days, 1 hour, 8 minutes, and 34 seconds. A reduction in time of 101 days or 2 months and 31 days for my campaign setting (Months having 5 weeks with 7 days per week).

Looking at the spell description for Haste seen here, the radius could be 105 feet using a caster level of 33 in the calculation. In my original calculation, I did not consider the range of the spell; I only considered the distance between those affected (30 feet times 5 subjects).

Lastly, the force arrow can be affected by archery feats, but is separate from the use of physical arrows. In other words, you can draw the bowstring to nock a force arrow or you can nock a physical arrow, but not both. Furthermore, if you nock a physical arrow, there is no additional force damage due to the magic missile effect. If you are still a little confused, I suggest you follow the Taulmaril (The Heartseeker) link in my first post for this thread.

P.S. I just considered your pricing using the Epic Weapon rules and the cost for The Dawnbreaker Rose would be as follows:

700 GP + ((11) * (11) * (20000 GP)) + 198000 GP + 66000 GP + 528000 GP =
3212700 GP

The total time to create the item would then be 3249 days, 1 hour, 8 minutes, and 34 seconds. An increase in time of 2076 days or 5 years and 326 days in my campaign setting (Years having 10 months). In other words, for my campaign setting, the item would take 9 years, 2 months and 29 days to complete.

This makes a lot of sense considering the power of the weapon.

I wouldn't price it at all.

IF you're going to pass this into the PC's hands, treat it as an artifact weapon. Make it available for the fight that it's needed for... and then take it away when it's job is done... Moorcock style.

If your players are mature and value story over trinkets they'll treat that development with grace.

If on the other hand, the only thing that matters to them are the toys they've gathered, I've wasted too much time on this thread already.

Dear LazarX:

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure the PCs will ever get a chance to use it as it is intended as the signature weapon of an NPC they may have the chance to meet during the course of the campaign.

I mentioned in my reply to Rocky Williams 530 that the pricing and time information was for my own sake: This is not intended to be available for purchase by the PCs. I also didn't realize I was creating a minor artifact class weapon until I went through the process of creating it.

As for the players I have in mind to include in my game, they do enjoy a great story, so I have no worries in that department! XD

You're the GM, right? I'm not sure what you're asking. What the cost and time to make would be? Does it matter? Is it happening in game? Are the PC's doing the work?

Dear Rocky Williams 530:

I would be the GM, but that's several months away at best as I am a pretty detailed person when it comes to RPGs and I am creating an entire campaign setting. I'm just looking for advice and opinions on my creation.

I used the item creation rules to generate this weapon after reading through them and determining exactly what I wanted it to do. I did this in an attempt to create as balanced a weapon as possible. As this is my first time creating such a powerful weapon, I wanted to gather third-party opinions on what I've done, especially since I'm a fledgling GM (This will be the first full campaign I've GMed). In that sense, anything you have to offer would be very appreciated.

As for the pricing and time information, it is mostly for my sake: In my opinion, artifacts were created by someone and while their creation may be difficult, I wanted to get a sense of how it might be done. I didn't quite realize the bow would be a minor artifact until I went through the rules step by step to create it.

I hope this helps to clarify things and I look forward to all of the opinions you and other posters have to offer! ;)

If you have been following this thread, it has been moved to the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew board. You may use the following link to navigate to the feed: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pti0?Legendary-Bow-for-NPC-Character-Based-On

Hello All:

I am looking for assistance in creating several special magic weapons for a campaign setting on which I am working. The main topic of discussion for this post is a Composite Longbow with the following spells used during its creation:

1) Haste;
2) Magic Missile; and
3) Sunburst.

I have not yet determined the strength bonus for the bow, but I do know that I also want to have the following special weapon abilities applied as well:

1) Bane(Undead);
2) Distance;
3) Holy;
4) Merciful; and
5) Seeking.

My problems are as follows:

A) For the incorporation of Haste, Magic Missile, and Sunburst, how do I determine the caster level and aura of the completed weapon?

B) For the incorporation of Haste, Magic Missile, and Sunburst, how do I determine the associated enhancement bonus of the completed weapon without any special weapon abilities applied?

C) For the incorporation of Haste, Magic Missile, and Sunburst, how do I calculate the base cost of the completed weapon without any special weapon abilities applied?

D) Do I have to upgrade to a magic weapon in order to add the special weapon abilities listed above to the weapon [i.e. Do I have to pay to make it a +1 magic weapon or will it be a +X magic weapon from the outset due to the spells imbued within it where X is determined based on the answer to B) above]?

What I know so far is as far as cost and bonuses are concerned is as follows:

Total Cost =
100 GP for composite longbow +
100 GP per point of strength bonus added +
300 GP for masterwork quality +
[Cost Based On Enhancement Bonus From Spells] +
[Cost Based On +5 Total Enhancement Bonus From Special Weapon Abilities]

I also understand that the total enhancement bonus cannot exceed +10, but does that apply only to bonuses based on special weapon abilities or also on bonuses based on spell effects?

If any of you could provide a detailed walkthrough addressing my problems and concerns, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance!

1) You always need to give a weapon at last a +1 magical bonus to make it a magical weapon and add other abilities.

2)
a) Bane(Undead);
+1 enhancement

b) Distance;
+1 enhancement

c) Holy;
+2 enhancement

d) Merciful;
not available for ranged weapons (there are 2 different tables, one for meele weapons and one for ranged weapons)

e) Seeking.
+1 enhancement

3) total enhancement
+1 (base) +1 (bane) +1 (distance) +2 (holy) +1 (seeking) = +6

72.000 gp for those power alone.

4)
a) Haste;
b) Magic Missile; and
c) Sunburst.

Exactly what should do those spells?

a) If haste is user only, always in effect, you should use the speed ability (+3 enhancement)
If it is a spell that the bow user can cast x times a day you should refer to the wondrous item section for his price.

b) magic missile
redundant and counter intuitive in the hands of a archer.

c) sunburst.
If it is a spell that the bow user can cast x times a day you should refer to the wondrous item section for his price.

In alternative you can make the bow intelligent and give it those spells, but that is another set of pricing.

All inclusive you seem to be pricing a artifact level weapon.

Final note:
almost certainly this thread will be moved to the suggestion and homebrew as all custom magic items are considered homebrew.

In addition to what Diego said (although making a bow shoot magic missiles sounds fine to me, even though it makes seeking redundant):

A) For an item with several effects (including the plus equivalent effects) each one has a caster level and an aura. The item as a whole takes the aura (and caster level) of the single highest-CL effect.

B) For x/day abilities, simply add them as a separate, non-plus-equivalent effects. (I'm of the opinion that anything continuous or use-activated on a weapon or armor should be given a plus-equivalence, but there's no guidelines for that.)

C) The item will be the masterwork item price plus the plus-equivalent price plus any other magic prices.

D) You can pay for it in pieces or all at once. It generally won't make any difference in time or money. (Rounding issues can raise the time it takes, but probably not by much relative to the 100 or so days this would take anyway.)

Edit: In general, it's not terribly useful to say you want to incorporate, say magic missile. You really should start with (or state) what you want the end results to be, and then work backwards from there.

Dear All:

I am looking for advice, opinions, and assistance in creating a legendary bow for a major NPC to be included in an epic campaign setting on which I am working. I have spent the past hour or so going through the various item creation rules and will outline my findings below:

The Dawnbreaker Rose
This +3 composite longbow appears the picture image of a rose that has yet to bloom, but when drawn, an arrow of pink light as bright as the sun is strung and the rosebud atop this majestic weapon unfurls to reveal its beauty.

"If someone tells me that it's wrong to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every time." - Madoka Kaname, Episode 12, My Very Best Friend.

Composite Longbow with +3 Strength Rating
- 400 GP (4000 SP) for Base Price
- 300 GP (3000 SP) for Masterwork Quality
- Craft(Bows) DC 21 for Standard Component
- Craft(Bows) DC 20 for Masterwork Component
- Total Market Price: 700 GP (7000 SP)
- Cost for Raw Materials: (1/3) * (700 GP) = 233 GP + 3 SP + 3 CP
- Cost for Raw Materials: 2334 SP (Rounded Up from 2333 SP + 3 CP)
- Est. Time to Completion: 5 Weeks, 2 Days, 1 Hour, 8 Minutes, and 34 Seconds (Using A Minimum DC of 21 as the Basis)

Ranged Weapon Special Abilities To Be Added

• +1 Enhancement Bonus to upgrade to magic weapon
  
• +1 Bane [Outsiders(Evil)]
  
• +1 Bane (Undead)
  
• +1 Distance
  
• +2 Holy
  
• +1 Merciful
  
• +1 Seeking

- Total Enhancement Bonus: +8 (Min. Caster Level of 24)
- Total Base Price: 128000 GP

Spell Effects To Be Added

• Haste: When making a full attack action, the wielder may make one additional attack at his or her full base attack bonus, plus any appropriate modifiers.

  In addition, the movement speeds of the wielder and up to five (5) allies within a 150-foot radius receive a +30-foot enhancement bonus to each of their modes of movement.

  Base Price For Effect:
  (Spell Level 3) * (Min. Caster Level of 24) * (2000 GP) * (4) =
  576000 GP

  Note: The 4 multiplier is due to the duration of the spell being measured in rounds.

• Magic Missile: When the bow is drawn and no arrow nocked, it produces an arrow of light that deals 2d6 points of force damage. When a standard or magical arrow is nocked, the damage due to the force effect is not applied to the ammunition.

  If the wielder rolls and confirms a critical hit while using the force arrow, the arrow casts Sunburst, as the spell, upon hitting their target.

  If the force arrow is fired into or passes through an area under the effect of any darkness spells of lower than 9th level, any such spells are instantly dispelled.

  Base Price For Magic Missile Effect:
  (Spell Level 1) * (Min. Caster Level of 24) * (2000 GP) =
  48000 GP

  Base Price For Sunburst Effect:
  (Spell Level 8) * (Min. Caster Level of 24) * (2000 GP) =
  384000 GP

- Total Base Price From Ranged Weapon Special Abilities and Spell Effects: 1136000 GP
- Est. Time to Completion: 1136 Days

- TOTAL COST: 1136700 GP
- TOTAL EST. TIME TO COMPLETION: 1173 Days, 1 Hour, 8 Minutes, and 34 Seconds

For your reference I will include the URLs to several webpages that may help further your understanding of my concept:

Taulmaril (The Heartseeker)

Puella Magi Madoka Magica

Madoka Kaname

Madoka's Bow

As I began this post on another board, I will place that post in a reply to this one along with the two replies I received.

Sorry for the length, but I wanted to provide as much information as possible so that you all could provide the best advice, opinions, and assistance. Thank you in advance for your help!

I will be moving this post to the Homebrew board guys. I'll include quotes of your current advice over there and provide a better explanation of what I am intending to create.

Thanks for your help so far.

1) You always need to give a weapon at last a +1 magical bonus to make it a magical weapon and add other abilities.

2)
a) Bane(Undead);
+1 enhancement

b) Distance;
+1 enhancement

c) Holy;
+2 enhancement

d) Merciful;
not available for ranged weapons (there are 2 different tables, one for meele weapons and one for ranged weapons)

e) Seeking.
+1 enhancement

3) total enhancement
+1 (base) +1 (bane) +1 (distance) +2 (holy) +1 (seeking) = +6

72.000 gp for those power alone.

4)
a) Haste;
b) Magic Missile; and
c) Sunburst.

Exactly what should do those spells?

a) If haste is user only, always in effect, you should use the speed ability (+3 enhancement)
If it is a spell that the bow user can cast x times a day you should refer to the wondrous item section for his price.

b) magic missile
redundant and counter intuitive in the hands of a archer.

c) sunburst.
If it is a spell that the bow user can cast x times a day you should refer to the wondrous item section for his price.

In alternative you can make the bow intelligent and give it those spells, but that is another set of pricing.

All inclusive you seem to be pricing a artifact level weapon.

Final note:
almost certainly this thread will be moved to the suggestion and homebrew as all custom magic items are considered homebrew.

Hey, thanks for the tips. I'm going to move my post to the Homebrew board myself and provide a better explanation of what I'm trying to do there.

It may be that I am creating an artifact type weapon as I originally calculated the weapon to have at least a +11 bonus. Unfortunately, there are no rules concerning the creation of an artifact or weapons beyond the power of the normal rules but just below being an artifact. :/

Hello All:

I am looking for assistance in creating several special magic weapons for a campaign setting on which I am working. The main topic of discussion for this post is a Composite Longbow with the following spells used during its creation:

1) Haste;
2) Magic Missile; and
3) Sunburst.

I have not yet determined the strength bonus for the bow, but I do know that I also want to have the following special weapon abilities applied as well:

1) Bane(Undead);
2) Distance;
3) Holy;
4) Merciful; and
5) Seeking.

My problems are as follows:

A) For the incorporation of Haste, Magic Missile, and Sunburst, how do I determine the caster level and aura of the completed weapon?

B) For the incorporation of Haste, Magic Missile, and Sunburst, how do I determine the associated enhancement bonus of the completed weapon without any special weapon abilities applied?

C) For the incorporation of Haste, Magic Missile, and Sunburst, how do I calculate the base cost of the completed weapon without any special weapon abilities applied?

D) Do I have to upgrade to a magic weapon in order to add the special weapon abilities listed above to the weapon [i.e. Do I have to pay to make it a +1 magic weapon or will it be a +X magic weapon from the outset due to the spells imbued within it where X is determined based on the answer to B) above]?

What I know so far is as far as cost and bonuses are concerned is as follows:

Total Cost =
100 GP for composite longbow +
100 GP per point of strength bonus added +
300 GP for masterwork quality +
[Cost Based On Enhancement Bonus From Spells] +
[Cost Based On +5 Total Enhancement Bonus From Special Weapon Abilities]

I also understand that the total enhancement bonus cannot exceed +10, but does that apply only to bonuses based on special weapon abilities or also on bonuses based on spell effects?

If any of you could provide a detailed walkthrough addressing my problems and concerns, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance!