Paolo's page

My response in another thread got me thinking about the concepts of "class" and "role" in 4e. The following ideas have been ruminating at the back of my mind for a few months, and I finally decided to articulate them. Not wanting to threadjack the other thread, I decided to post a new one.

I believe there is a lot of misunderstanding about the purpose of "roles" in 4e and I think it comes from the confusion of what "class" represents in 3e/3.5 with what it represents in 4e. A good way of understanding the 4e idea of "class" is by thinking about where we get the use of the word "class" in the first place. "Class" implies a collection of things, grouped by common attributes.

For example, in 3e/3.5 "fighter" is a rather generic term for the metagame concept of a person who fights (generally in melee, but also possibly at range). I doubt that in the game world, anyone ever says, "I'm a fighter" in response to a question of what one does for a living. The term "fighter" is specifically used at the metagame level to classify a collection of people by their common attributes (which are metagame aspects such as weapon proficiency, base attack bonus, available feats/abilities, etc).

Now, certainly, the term used for some classes can also be used in the game world to describe what one "does for a living," but one doesn't have to. A cleric could be a priest, a wizard a mage, or a rogue a thief. In fact, you could be a priest whose "class" is bard, or a thief whose "class" is fighter.

The design of 4e recognizes that "class" is better understood as a collection of common metagame attributes, rather than a description of one's profession or place in society. This design standpoint does result in more focused and seemingly restricted classes, but because the purpose of "class" in the game is different, this is not really a bad thing. The idea is that you use these focused elements as building blocks for an already designed character concept, not as the starting point for designing a character.

For example, in 3e/3.5 you might decide to make a fighter, and then you decide what you want that fighter to do, such as focus on archery. In 4e, you decide that you want a character who is primarily a ranged combatant, so you look at the building blocks and determine that the ranger best suits the concept. In 3e/3.5, you might decide to make a cleric, and then you decide you want the character to focus on melee combat. In 4e, you start with the concept of a battle-priest, and then you might decide the best fit is a little from fighter, a little from cleric, or maybe a paladin instead.

The point is that "class" is a metagame concept used to describe a character's abilities (both in and out of combat). The personality, role in society, and general flavor of the character is not dependent on "class." It is certainly likely they will be related, but the former determines the latter, rather than the other way around, which is more how 3e/3.5 views "class."

In this context of the meaning of "class," the concept of "roles" becomes much more appropriate. Classes are designed more specifically, and therefore more specifically fill certain roles. You design a character based on what you want to be able to do. Hence, you are in control of which role(s) you want to fill. The categorization of classes into roles merely helps you figure out which class(es) will best model your concept. If you choose a class irrespective of what you want your character to be able to do, and then try to use that class to do something it can't, it should be no surprise that you feel restricted.

For example, while in 3e/3.5 one might choose to play the class wizard and then use feats/spells to fight well on the front lines, this would make little sense in the context of 4e. Instead, one might use abilities from *both* the wizard and fighter classes (or perhaps the upcoming Swordmage class) to model the concept of a front-line arcanist. In game, one could still refer to the character as a wizard (or mage, or whatever), but mechanically (on a metagame level), it would be different.

To sum up, I believe in order to understand (and fully appreciate) the concept of "roles" in 4e, we must alter our preconceived notions of "class." I don't think it is possible to use the 3e/3.5 meaning of class to understand correctly how 4e is supposed to work. I wish that WotC had been clearer about this shift in concept in their previews, as I think it would have resulted in less misunderstanding regarding the new edition. Perhaps when the rules come out, this will be more explicit.

What do you think about this? Is my assessment valid? Please share your thoughts on the concepts of "class" and "role."

First I want to applaud Paizo for taking such a bold step, and to wish them good luck in their endeavor. They are an extremely talented group of people, and I know they will create an excellent product. This post is simply to express my disappointment over the decision regarding the future of Pathfinder.

Based on the statements they made, my impression was that Paizo would decide which edition Pathfinder would use after seeing the full 4e rules and the GSL. This was extremely important to me, because I feel that the proper context and complete information is needed to make a truly informed decision. As for myself, while I’m very interested in 4e and believe I will likely adopt it, I am reserving final judgment until the full product is released. I freely admit that my early impressions of the game could be wrong.

Now, I realize that the delay in the GSL has unfairly put a lot of pressure on Paizo, and my guess is that part of the reason for their decision is that they could not wait any longer. Again, though, I was under the impression that a delayed GSL would have implications specifically on whether or not the 3rd Adventure Path (Second Darkness) would be 3.5, and that the final decision over the future of Pathfinder would still be based on a full analysis of 4e.

Of course, my impressions could have been wrong, but I do not think they are that far off base, and I would guess that many other people shared them. I’m certainly not accusing Paizo of being deceitful or insincere in their intent, but I must say that I am much more disappointed in the Pathfinder decision than I would have been if they had announced it after reviewing the 4e rules and GSL. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure why it was necessary to make a final decision now.

Regardless of my disappointment, however, I again want to wish the fine people at Paizo the best of luck. I will continue supporting the Pathfinder line, because I absolutely love the setting and I enjoy the stories. It is very important to me, however, that Paizo understands that my continued support is based on the existing products and campaign setting, and not at all based on the decision to create the Pathfinder RPG. For those of us who love the setting but are not excited by the RPG, I'm not really sure how else we can provide the proper customer feedback.

It was the morning of the Swallowtail Festival, a day-long celebration of the goddess Desna on the first day of autumn. The citizens of Sandpoint were especially celebratory, as they would be consecrating their newly built cathedral that day, after the old chapel burned down five years ago.

The PCs arrived to town mostly independent of one another. Noalani and Votha Hopperhill met along the road when Mr. Hopperhill came across the caravan Noalani was traveling with. She was on her way to attend the Swallowtail Festival, and he was on the open road seeking new surroundings. The old halfling decided to tag along with the caravan and spent a few nights chatting with Noalani about faith and other matters. They arrived in Sandpoint the evening before the festival and sought lodging at the Rusty Dragon Inn.

Two of the others had already arrived to town earlier that day. Vaela had passed by the White Deer Inn, its three stories a bit too lofty for the diminutive gnome. She wandered through the streets, taking in the sights and smells of the bustling town – particularly the smells from the Sandpoint Savories, where she purchased some stickybuns from the twin Avertin girls. She eventually made her way to Sandpoint’s other inn, the Rusty Dragon. As Vaela entered the inn, Teosi was just leaving it.

Teosi had just arrived to Sandpoint, hoping to earn some money as a dancer during the festival. At the Rusty Dragon, she inquired about a room from the halfling woman at the desk, but then the owner of the inn entered the room and introduced herself. Ameiko Kaijitsu recognized Teosi as a fellow adventurer and offered her a discount if she would share a story or two that evening. Teosi had few stories to tell, but said she would be happy to perform a few dances.

That evening, Noalani, Mr. Hopperhill, Vaela, and Teosi all enjoyed the great food and great entertainment the Rusty Dragon is known for. Many great stories were told, Ameiko herself performed a few songs, and Teosi danced.

Early the next morning, Adier Dow arrived to Sandpoint. As he entered the square near the new cathedral, people were busily setting up for the day’s festivities. Teosi had also gotten up early and was exploring the square.

"You know, it really is a wonderful honor to their memories," one elderly woman said, stopping to admire the new cathedral. "Father Tobyn was so kind, and that young girl was surely a gift from the gods themselves."

"It's true," replied her friend. "And I can't believe it has been five years already. Perhaps now we can put that all behind us."

“Oh, for the love of Gozreh!" a one-legged man shouted to the young man carrying a crate of supplies, hobbling around with his palm on his forehead. "I told him not to eat those scallops. Now how are we going to get everything from the Hagfish to here in time for the festival?"

Adier turned toward the one-legged man and said, "Pardon me, guv, but I couldn't help overhearing your frustration. If it's some portage ye be needin', I'd be more than happy to help."

The man agreed to pay Adier for his services and showed him where to begin hauling.

Soon it was mid-morning and a crowd was gathering in the square for the opening ceremonies. The PCs were all in attendance, though none of them knew each other yet except for Noalani and Mr. Hopperhill. A woman with short auburn hair stood up on the stage near the cathedral, four chairs behind her, three of them occupied. As the crowd began to notice her, a hush descended and all eyes turned toward her.

I think this got buried in the Norah's Tank thread. I photoshopped up a couple pictures to use for my group (we play online). I thought I'd make them available for other DMs to use (since I've appropriated my own share of useful tidbits off these boards). One is Norah in her tank, the other is someone scooping out a tankard full of slimy water.

You can find them HERE.

I'm considering statting up an NPC with the Lemorian template that Vanthus has, but I can't find it anywhere. I don't remember what issue it is in, but I'm thinking Serpents of Scuttlecove, and I'm pretty sure that issue is at my friend's house.

Could anyone help me out? I could try to deduce the approximate stats from Vanthus' Tides of Dread statblock which I do have, but that would require work and thinking, which I don't really want to do ;)

Thanks!

One of my PCs has the notion of stuffing everything she kills (no really i mean EVERYTHING -- she asked me how much the Ooze would weigh) and so she'd like to take some ranks in Craft(taxidermy) to do it herself. Anyone have any ideas of how that would work? I tried using the rules for crafting other stuff (like weapons/armor) but it doesn't come out too realistically time-wise.

Also, anyone have any ideas on the logistics of toting around a dead carcass until you can stuff it? She's a barbarian, so she can carry a lot of weight, but I'd still like to keep it reasonable -- she can't just toss it in a sack and forget about it.

I could have posted this on the wizards forums, but we are doing the STAP and i like you guys better anyway ;)

Thanks!

So far, I'm loving this Adventure Path. So much so that I bought Stormwrack just to help me give my group more immersion in the type of setting. But after reading the rules on sailing in Stormwrack, I have a few questions pertaining to The Sea Wyvern's Wake.

Based on the distance traveled and the time between stops, it seems as though the ships are sailing all day long and resting at night (a common practice along coastlines, according to Stormwrack). This makes sense for the coastlines, but once they get into open sea, it seems it would be more difficult to just stop for the night. If they sailed on through the night, I could see adjusting the times between each "event," but then it would seem like they would need double the crew to sail all that time, since I doubt the watch of 7 would be working the whole time.

This detail seems small, but I'd like to be able to describe the general routine aboard the ship without losing consistency and such. All night sailing also changes the discovery of the sargasso, considering if there were people on deck all night, they would notice (even if it were completely dark) the lack of movement, sound of waves, etc, instead of the crew wakening to the unsettling sight.

Some ideas on reconciling this from both a real world perspective and a game mechanics perspective would be much appreciated. As well, any general info on the routine running of a sailing ship would be great too, since I know there are some old salts in these forums :)

Thanks!
Paolo

On p. 28 of "The Bullywug Gambit" it mentions that Captain Javell fought her way into the cove both to help Kigante escape and to make sure certain papers on his desk did not fall into the wrong hands. I'm guessing these papers are just some Crimson Fleet documents that aren't part of the plot and are just a background element for why she's there. It doesn't mention anything about this in the section on Kigante's room or in Harliss' possessions. I'm just wondering if there is anything to these papers, or if anyone has any good ideas for turning this background bit into something plot related.

In "The Bullywug Gambit" the guidelines for scaling the adventure mention giving levels of barbarian to Jajirlok. Who or what is Jajirlok? I've been back and forth through the the adventure a few times and can't find any mention of this creature. Maybe my search check is just way lower than I thought, but it's really bugging me. Can anyone help?

Okay, so grappling itself isn't THAT confusing, but then they throw in the Improved Grab ability in some monsters and that makes it complicated.

The rhagodessa I'm done with. They fought it twice, and both times I tried to make it grapple according to the rules, and I still don't know if I'm getting it right. And even if they manage to find the nest of 3 of them, I probably won't actually put them there because I don't want to deal with it.

Now I have to deal with the crocodile. I know the AP doesn't actually specify that it uses grapple, but it has Improved Grab, and I would figure that a crocodile would use such a tactic anyway. And, well, maybe I just want another shot at getting this right.

So this is how I think I will use it:
On a successful melee attack the crocodile attempts to grapple. If it wins, it automatically pulls the PC underwater and attempts to pin it. On each successive turn, once the PC is pinned, it deals 1d8+6 dmg with a successful grapple check.

I know that's not exactly to spec with the rules (for example the Improved Grab only works on creatures smaller that it unless otherwise noted). But honestly, the Improved Grab ability seems so vague in its description, plus reading the description of the Rhago's Improved Grab (which incidentally doesn't note it can be used on other medium creatures, although it seems to imply such, since that's its main type of attack and most PCs are medium), it seems like one could make a good argument for a crocodile to be able to do this.

I know it's not a big deal. Perhaps I should just ignore the croc's grappling ability (it's only +6 anyway). Really, I just want to be able to understand grappling enough to make use of it. But could someone please give me some advice about this? Does it seem fair how I plan on using it? I'm a new DM and still struggling to figure many things out.

Thanks so much :)