Paolo's page

It seems to me, Timothy, that you only want to read my words as you see fit, and so I will not continue to argue over them with you. You disagree with me and that is fine.

I don't care to argue on a messageboard with people I've never met and never will meet. I've posted more in the last couple days than I have in the last couple months, and I'm tired of it. It's not what I find entertaining, and I only meant to give Paizo my customer feedback in the first place.

I've said my piece, I've indicated the types of 4e products I'd like to see, and I've been put at ease by Lisa's post regarding Paizo's interest in its 4e fans.

Before I leave the thread, I just want to sum up my feelings in hopes that it clears up any confusion.

I don't expect Paizo to commit to any 4e products right now. They don't have the resources to do so, nor do they have the rules and the GSL in order to make an informed decision. They have, however, brought up the possibility (even if it is very small or far down the road) of doing 4e products some day. So there's no reason Paizo customers shouldn't discuss what types of those products they would like to see. That doesn't mean anyone expects Paizo to do any of them (in the near future or even ever), but given that Paizo prides themselves on how much they listen to their customers, I would expect them not to discourage such discussion. And while it was actually Shroomy's point about encouraging the fan-created 4e conversions, I do agree. If Paizo is going to say they want their fans to do conversions, they should back that up with words of encouragement, if not actual ideas. Perhaps as Lisa said, it is a bit early for that, and we may see more of it in the future.

So I guess that's two expectations I have of Paizo. I am not demanding 4e products, or even Mexican food ;) But I do expect Paizo to listen to its customers (even if they don't act upon the feedback), and I expect them to offer encouragement when they ask something of their community. I have these expectations because they are in line with the standard Paizo has already set as one of the most customer-friendly businesses out there.

If you want to disagree with me, we will have to agree to disagree. I've said what I want to say, and I'm confident that my concerns were heard by the people I needed to hear them (i.e. the ones who make the products I'm buying). As I said, I do not wish to argue over this anymore.

Thank you, Lisa, James, the rest of Paizo, and everyone else for hearing me out.

And if you walk into an italian restaurant and demand to know what they are going to do about the fact that you like mexican food better, what are they supposed to do? They aren't going to suddenly add mexican dishes, I can tell you that.

Your analogy does not directly apply. No one is demanding they do anything. They themselves expressed the possibility of producing 4e products. Moreover, your analogy has nothing to do with my point about alienation and the producer-customer relationship (which you quoted). If I like Mexican food, it is still the Italian restaurant's job to try to get me to buy their products. They don't have to add Mexican dishes, but if they want my business, they sure better consider the fact that I like Mexican better, and proceed forward with that in mind.

James told you what he thinks. Namely, that supporting 4e isn't important to Paizo at the moment because 1) it doesn't appeal to many of the staff (and its not just James who has said so) 2) It isn't even released yet 3) there is a lot of legal uncertainty about what they could do.

James said none of these things in this thread, except for perhaps #2. Even then, it is not anything I or anyone else disputed.

He's not trying to drive you away, but if you come here and say "hey, we don't like the stuff you are making, why don't you make something else?" and then get offended because he said "no" that's on you.

I'm doing no such thing. As I mentioned before, Paizo opened the door to the idea of them producing 4e material. All we've done here is talk about what we'd like that to look like if and when it should happen.

Wizards is the one splitting the community with its radical game change and its legal maneuverings. You can't reasonably expect Paizo to do anything about 4e when they don't have the rules and don't know what their legal situation with it is.

Aside from the fact that there are plenty of people who don't see the changes as very radical, once again no one is expecting Paizo to commit to anything at this moment. As I said before, they opened the door to the idea and we are describing how we would like it to happen if it does.

We are actually excited to see what our fans do in converting our 3.5 edition products into 4th edition.

...
I hope this puts your mind at ease and lets you understand why official Paizo employees are absent from the discussions. Give us a chance to read the new rules and the GSL and I bet there will be much more participation. But not until after June 6th.

Thank you, Lisa. My sincere hope is that the excitement you mention here actually does show itself in the upcoming months. I realize the situation Paizo is in, and I realize that given a couple months, things may seem much different. I really thank you for expressing these things in a respectful and considerate way, rather than in a way that seems to say a subsection of Paizo fans are not wanted.

Though the post was not explicitly directed at me, it indeed puts my mind at ease.

A bunch of really insightful stuff.

I just wanted to add that. Everything you said is exactly how I feel, and worded much better than I could. :)

Sadly, James's last post only makes me less inclined to have anything to do with Paizo anymore.

Shroomy wrote about how the lack of staff (note that includes the whole staff, not just James) presence in the threads on 4e conversion seems to indicate that Paizo doesn't really want anything to do with it, not even to offer encouragement. James then takes this as a personal critique of his time. I honestly don't really care what you spend your time on, James. If you don't like 4e, and you don't want to talk about it, then don't. But that doesn't change the fact that on the one hand, Paizo (as a company) claims to want the community to step up and support 4e, but on the other hand doesn't provide any sort of encouragement to do so.

James then goes on to emphasize that Paizo is not developing into a 4th edition company. He says that there are better choices for boards to discuss 4e, and that Paizo doesn't have to try to convince anyone to buy their products if they don't plan to use the PRPG system. While all of this may be true, how does it not feel like a slap in the face to fans who are looking forward to 4e? Let me clarify. Though they may be true facts, the act of emphasizing them seems to be an unnecessary slap in the face. There are ways of saying all of that without telling the pro-4e crowd to screw off.

James, you say that you, yourself, are not interested in "spending LOTS of time trying to convince someone who's decided to go with a competitor's product to use [your] product." But what about you (that is as a company, not an individual, as I believe Shroomy was talking about Paizo in general) spending just ANY time convincing someone of that? Isn't that what businesses do? I believe all Shroomy was saying was that Paizo ought to at least try to appeal to a wider audience. There is a big difference between "Our Pathfinder line is primarily suited for the Pathfinder RPG, but here are some rules-light products that can be used in virtually any system" and "If you decide you prefer 4th edition content, there's not much we can do about it."

The last issue I want to address is this line, about which it is my turn to be vexed:

But if you're more interested in 4th edition than 3.5 or Pathfinder, keep in mind that you're also alienating Paizo and me.

James, this is twice now that you've turned the word "alienate" around to portray yourself as the victim. While I don't doubt that you feel alienated by the 4e rules changes (the first use), I really must take exception to this second use. Let's get the producer-customer relationship correct here. If I choose to buy a product other than yours, I'm not alienating you, I'm simply choosing a different product. If you indicate to me that you don't really want my business, THAT is alienating me as a customer. It really doesn't work the other way around. It is the job of the seller to entice a buyer, not a buyer to entice a seller.

Please stop trying to portray yourself as the victim. You may be working long and hard hours, you may have made sacrifices for Pathfinder, and you may be really resentful of 4e and everything it is bringing about. But this is not a personal issue. I really do feel sorry for you on a personal level, but that doesn't change the fact that I feel that Paizo (as a company) is being disingenuous about its potential support of 4e. Please have the professional courtesy to separate your personal feelings from discussion about the company's behaviors. Your personal opinions are welcome regarding most other topics, but given your position as editor-in-chief, it doesn't seem fair to be personalizing this issue as you are.

What attracted me to Paizo in the first place a couple years ago seems to be disappearing in the recent months. My hope is that it is simply the unease a new edition brings, but if James's last post is any indication, I'm starting to feel much less welcome here.

Currently Paizo has no plans to do 4e, they lack the staff and work force to do it to the level they feel it would need to be done and still do what they are doing with Pathfinder and until they see the GSL and 4e rules it is a moot point regardless. As that will determine if they even want to consider it down the road.

But what is NOT a moot point is the types of products fans would like to see if Paizo ends up doing anything 4e. I don't disagree with you (or anyone) that creating a new 4e product line would be a huge undertaking, and that currently they likely do not have the resources for it. However, this has absolutely no bearing on whether or not fans should be encouraged to voice the types of products they would like to see if they were to develop a new line. This seems like unnecessary negativity which only serves to discourage discussion. That is my point.

To contribute discussion actually relevant to the original topic:

I'd really like to see quality adventures that I can run in 4th edition. I'm not confident at all that WotC can give me that, given their past work. I am, however, confident that Paizo can. I really have no idea what Necromancer Games can do, as I haven't ever used any of their products.

If Paizo can't/won't do 4e products themselves, then my hope is that the Necromancer stuff will be along the same lines as far as quality and feel. I also would love to see more Pathfinder stuff that is edition-neutral. I would be very interested in buying material about Golarion that I can use in any system. If Paizo can't/won't do a 4e line, then my hope is that their OGL line will contain more products I can use without the PFRPG.

That's what I would pay for.

I'm sorry my line was vexing you, James. I only meant to explain how your words were perceived. Let me further say that your personal feelings toward 4e are completely valid, and you are certainly entitled to them. You can and ought to express your personal opinions on the new edition as much as you want.

However, in this case, my objection is not to your personal opinion. I realize that personal opinion will color everything you say on a subject. Mine certainly does, everyone's does. In this case, I'm simply asking that when you post regarding something Paizo is/has/will do, that you check that.

Here we had a thread where Paizo fans could express what they'd like to see as far as Paizo 4e products -- a perfect opportunity to get customer feedback. I thought it was a pretty upbeat topic, and so I posted (something I really don't do much) my own hopes for the products I'd like. The 9th post in, someone brings up the claim that Paizo has said they are too busy to take on more products. The only response from actual Paizo staff in the thread was to reinforce that one negative post. When the staff only comes in to rain on an otherwise positive parade, that seems to say that the parade isn't wanted and/or needed. This is the alienation to which I was referring.

Please don't think that I believe you shouldn't get to have your own opinions. I'm sorry that so far 4e has been a disappointment to you, and I really feel bad that your own work has essentially been invalidated. Once again, though, your own opinions are not the issue here. It is that you (and to a lesser extent Mike) seemed to be telling us that we shouldn't bother voicing what we'd like to see, because Paizo isn't going to do it anyway.

Nevertheless... at this point, as Mike has said, we don't have the staff to launch a totally new 4th Edition line. Nor are we interested in converting Pathfinder to 4th Edition (from what I've seen, that would require too intrusive a rebuild of the world, and I like it the way it is) ... We still actually haven't SEEN the GSL. And until we do, we can't make any decisions anyway.

There has been mention by Paizo staff of the possibility of doing 4e products (and not just through Necromancer) in the future.

We're sure that lots of roleplayers are going to be thrilled with Wizards of the Coast's upcoming 4th Edition, and we're also looking forward to the 4th Edition products that our partner Necromancer Games will be creating. Paizo may also publish 4th Edition products in the future, but if we do, they won't cross over with our Pathfinder products.

We absolutely haven't closed the door on 4th Edition, though. We are certainly planning on publishing a lot of 4th stuff with Necromancer, and once we see the GSL and the rules and find out what we can and cannot do with those rules, and once we're familiar enough with the rules to edit game material, we'll probably look into launching some new lines or something.

Now that we know the GSL applies on a product-line by product-line basis rather than by company, I think it is certainly reasonable to have a discussion over what kinds of 4e products we'd like to see. I'm also not sure what the point is of rehashing that it would take extra effort and money to develop another line. All that seems to do is say "Don't bother telling us what you'd like to see, we aren't gonna do it anyway."

Obviously it will take extra effort, money, time, staff, etc. So perhaps if Paizo sees that there are customers out there who would like to see these products, then maybe some day they will try to acquire the resources to make it happen. Is it really necessary to discourage discussion over the kinds of products we'd like to see? I really thought customer feedback was one of the things Paizo held in high regard.

I'm not sure anyone in this thread was looking for Paizo to confirm any 4e products or to suggest converting Pathfinder (we realized that wouldn't happen when the PFRG was announced). We just want to voice the types of products we'd like to see, since there is stronger evidence now for a GSL that will allow it.

No offense, James, but sometimes your posts come off as a bit alienating toward us Paizo fans looking forward to 4e.

I'd like to see them publish 4e adventures that are setting-neutral enough to place in any campaign. Specifically, I'd like to be able to run them in Golarion. I realize of course that they cannot explicitly set them in the Pathfinder world, but I think if they were generic enough it would be fine.

The main reason I'm bummed is because I love Golarion, but I have absolutely no interest in the Pathfinder RPG. If I can get Paizo quality adventure modules for 4e that I can still run in the Pathfinder campaign setting, I'd be a happy camper.

Antoine and Sebastian, I do hope you will continue on here. David, Pete, Krauser and many others seem to be starting to bring some embers to life, and I am hoping that there is the possibility that there will be a forum here that brings to a 4e discussion the same fun and intelligence the Paizo board has overall.

So any time any of you think about bailing because of a fun-killing post, please remember that your presence in the 4e Paizo forum is much appreciated.

Cheers,
Matt

I agree! I really don't post much, but I generally stop by to check the 4e forum here daily. I appreciate the well-reasoned and intelligent discussion many of the posters here bring, and I like to consider myself a part of that community, even if I'm not as talkative as others. I'm optimistic that we are bringing this section of the Paizo boards back from the pit of hostility and vitriol of a few months ago. While I am sad that Paizo shut the door on a 4e Pathfinder, and so there's not as much to get excited about here, it's hard to leave a community I've grown so attached to.

Lefric:
Please allow me to clarify a few factual errors in your post in hopes of stopping the spread of misinformation. First, wizards are not assumed to be strikers, they are controllers. Second, as FabesMinis points out, Bards and Druids are not gone. They've been all but directly confirmed for the PHB2. Third, the Druid has been described as a hybrid of roles, so the idea that "cross-role" behavior will "bust this silly role stuff wide open" is completely false.

Now, to address what I believe is your main point.

The problem is that they are now forcing people, [i]whatever their class,[i]into fulflling a cartain role, and only that role, in the party.

This is exactly what I was addressing in my original post. Your claim is based on the idea that one chooses a "class" first, and then is forced into a role. My point was that this is not how class works in 4e. You first decide what you want to be able to do (which goes along with what type of role you want to fill), and then you find a class that models your concept.

One of my good friends likes to play transumters. His favorite trick, when of a high enough level, is to polymorph into a troll, enlarge himself, maybe pick up a buls strength or other such buff, and wade into melee.

Again, the concept of "class" in 4e is different from in 3e/3.5. I would ask you, what is it about that character that makes it a "wizard?" What makes it different from say, a fighter being polymorphed into a troll, being enlarged, being buffed, and wading into melee? I would argue that the character concept you described is a "wizard" in name only. It is basically a character that changes shape into something bigger and stronger and fights in melee. Once in melee, my guess is that he acts much like a fighter would in 4e.

Unfortunately, since very little has been done so far with polymorph effects in 4e, it is difficult to emulate that concept exactly yet. However, ignoring for a moment the limitation on shapechanging, the concept you described would probably best be achieved with a combination of wizard and fighter powers. In fact, I would say completely fighter, but my guess is that even though you don't describe it, the character would probably want to be able to do some wizardly things as well.

Let me stress again that you *can* use a combination of abilities from different classes (filling different roles). The multiclassing rules have not been completely revealed yet, but they've hinted at them.

If one wants to use this thread to debate the merits of roles, one has the right to do so. However, I do not intend to do so any more than I have, and I'd ask that one keeps in mind that the point of the original post was to explore the meanings of the underlying concepts of "class" and "role." I believe that it is difficult to really understand (and therefore debate about) roles without understanding the shift in the concept of class. My point was to generate discussion of these concepts to provide a framework for understanding the broader picture.

My response in another thread got me thinking about the concepts of "class" and "role" in 4e. The following ideas have been ruminating at the back of my mind for a few months, and I finally decided to articulate them. Not wanting to threadjack the other thread, I decided to post a new one.

I believe there is a lot of misunderstanding about the purpose of "roles" in 4e and I think it comes from the confusion of what "class" represents in 3e/3.5 with what it represents in 4e. A good way of understanding the 4e idea of "class" is by thinking about where we get the use of the word "class" in the first place. "Class" implies a collection of things, grouped by common attributes.

For example, in 3e/3.5 "fighter" is a rather generic term for the metagame concept of a person who fights (generally in melee, but also possibly at range). I doubt that in the game world, anyone ever says, "I'm a fighter" in response to a question of what one does for a living. The term "fighter" is specifically used at the metagame level to classify a collection of people by their common attributes (which are metagame aspects such as weapon proficiency, base attack bonus, available feats/abilities, etc).

Now, certainly, the term used for some classes can also be used in the game world to describe what one "does for a living," but one doesn't have to. A cleric could be a priest, a wizard a mage, or a rogue a thief. In fact, you could be a priest whose "class" is bard, or a thief whose "class" is fighter.

The design of 4e recognizes that "class" is better understood as a collection of common metagame attributes, rather than a description of one's profession or place in society. This design standpoint does result in more focused and seemingly restricted classes, but because the purpose of "class" in the game is different, this is not really a bad thing. The idea is that you use these focused elements as building blocks for an already designed character concept, not as the starting point for designing a character.

For example, in 3e/3.5 you might decide to make a fighter, and then you decide what you want that fighter to do, such as focus on archery. In 4e, you decide that you want a character who is primarily a ranged combatant, so you look at the building blocks and determine that the ranger best suits the concept. In 3e/3.5, you might decide to make a cleric, and then you decide you want the character to focus on melee combat. In 4e, you start with the concept of a battle-priest, and then you might decide the best fit is a little from fighter, a little from cleric, or maybe a paladin instead.

The point is that "class" is a metagame concept used to describe a character's abilities (both in and out of combat). The personality, role in society, and general flavor of the character is not dependent on "class." It is certainly likely they will be related, but the former determines the latter, rather than the other way around, which is more how 3e/3.5 views "class."

In this context of the meaning of "class," the concept of "roles" becomes much more appropriate. Classes are designed more specifically, and therefore more specifically fill certain roles. You design a character based on what you want to be able to do. Hence, you are in control of which role(s) you want to fill. The categorization of classes into roles merely helps you figure out which class(es) will best model your concept. If you choose a class irrespective of what you want your character to be able to do, and then try to use that class to do something it can't, it should be no surprise that you feel restricted.

For example, while in 3e/3.5 one might choose to play the class wizard and then use feats/spells to fight well on the front lines, this would make little sense in the context of 4e. Instead, one might use abilities from *both* the wizard and fighter classes (or perhaps the upcoming Swordmage class) to model the concept of a front-line arcanist. In game, one could still refer to the character as a wizard (or mage, or whatever), but mechanically (on a metagame level), it would be different.

To sum up, I believe in order to understand (and fully appreciate) the concept of "roles" in 4e, we must alter our preconceived notions of "class." I don't think it is possible to use the 3e/3.5 meaning of class to understand correctly how 4e is supposed to work. I wish that WotC had been clearer about this shift in concept in their previews, as I think it would have resulted in less misunderstanding regarding the new edition. Perhaps when the rules come out, this will be more explicit.

What do you think about this? Is my assessment valid? Please share your thoughts on the concepts of "class" and "role."

I love how they assume every party *has* to have a cleric. And since when does a party have to have certain roles filled by certain people?" Why can't the bard be the leader? Or the wizard? Of all the silly 4E stuff, the concept of roles alternatly amuses me and irritates me the most.

I believe you may be confused about the meaning of the word "leader" in this context. When 4e talks about the role of leader, it doesn't mean "the person who makes decisions for the party." That is still very much a non-rules player issue. In the context of 4e, "leader" means a character who contributes by making the rest of the party stronger/better (via buffs, healing, extra moves, etc). It describes the types of things the character is good at (particularly in regard to combat).

In 3e/3.5 it has always been assumed that the ideal party would have a cleric. That is not to say every party *has* to have one, but certainly without one, the party must make up for the healing in other ways (such as through potions and wands). Part of the design goal of 4e seeks to spread the abilities of the 3e/3.5 cleric around to other classes, precisely so that the ideal party no longer assumes a cleric. This means that if a party does not include a cleric, they can make up for it by using another "leader" class. Interestingly, the bard actually *will* be a "leader."

With regard to the concept of "roles," I think it is important to note that 4e views "class" slightly differently than 3e/3.5 too. In 3e/3.5, "class" represents what you *are*. You essentially choose to *be* a fighter, ranger, wizard, etc, much as in the real world, we decide to be a doctor, writer, professional athlete, etc. Then you go on to define yourself further by what you can do (both in and out of combat). In 4e, class decribes more what you *can do*. You first decide what types of things you want your character to do -- fight in melee, shoot from range, manipulate the battlefield through magic, etc. Then you decide how best to model that using the "class" designations in the rules.

"Class" is really more a collection of abilities, rather than what you are. In this context, dividing the classes into what types of roles they fill makes a lot of sense. If your character's primary abilities revolve around shooting from range, it would be silly to decribe your class as a "leader" in the sense that 4e uses. Now, if you wanted your character to do multiple types of activities (e.g. ranged combat and healing), you would be best served modelling the concept with a hybrid of abilities from such classes as the ranger and the cleric.

Because with a downloadable or HTML version of the SRD rules, I can browse them extensively, at my leisure, from the privacy of my own home, without having to go anywhere, and in my underwear, if I so desire.

I can print the whole thing and read it cover-to-cover on the toilet, or in my bed before I go to sleep at night.

Forgive me. I realize I phrased my point poorly. Obviously what you describe is much more convenient. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that if one is interested in reviewing the rules before purchasing, there are certainly ways to do so without relying on the entire ruleset being freely available on the internet. Moreover, I do not consider such means to be significantly less convenient than the way in which consumers normally review similar products before purchasing.

I was responding to a post I believed was concerned primarily with being able to review the rules before buying them. If convenience of the process is of primary importance, then I apologize, as my comments are likely inapplicable.

"That's a pity. Pretty much the only thing that could have convinced me to buy the 4e rulebooks was seeing the rules on the SRD and liking them.

Really? How is that much different from going to a store, reading through the rules there, and then deciding? It seems to me that if you were interested in giving the rules a look over before purchasing that it would be in your best interest still to do so, rather than to throw out the possibility altogether.

First I want to applaud Paizo for taking such a bold step, and to wish them good luck in their endeavor. They are an extremely talented group of people, and I know they will create an excellent product. This post is simply to express my disappointment over the decision regarding the future of Pathfinder.

Based on the statements they made, my impression was that Paizo would decide which edition Pathfinder would use after seeing the full 4e rules and the GSL. This was extremely important to me, because I feel that the proper context and complete information is needed to make a truly informed decision. As for myself, while I’m very interested in 4e and believe I will likely adopt it, I am reserving final judgment until the full product is released. I freely admit that my early impressions of the game could be wrong.

Now, I realize that the delay in the GSL has unfairly put a lot of pressure on Paizo, and my guess is that part of the reason for their decision is that they could not wait any longer. Again, though, I was under the impression that a delayed GSL would have implications specifically on whether or not the 3rd Adventure Path (Second Darkness) would be 3.5, and that the final decision over the future of Pathfinder would still be based on a full analysis of 4e.

Of course, my impressions could have been wrong, but I do not think they are that far off base, and I would guess that many other people shared them. I’m certainly not accusing Paizo of being deceitful or insincere in their intent, but I must say that I am much more disappointed in the Pathfinder decision than I would have been if they had announced it after reviewing the 4e rules and GSL. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure why it was necessary to make a final decision now.

Regardless of my disappointment, however, I again want to wish the fine people at Paizo the best of luck. I will continue supporting the Pathfinder line, because I absolutely love the setting and I enjoy the stories. It is very important to me, however, that Paizo understands that my continued support is based on the existing products and campaign setting, and not at all based on the decision to create the Pathfinder RPG. For those of us who love the setting but are not excited by the RPG, I'm not really sure how else we can provide the proper customer feedback.

Our decision was not the result of one event.

I did not mean to imply that I thought Paizo's decision was rash or based solely on one factor. My question was just whether or not you had seen the full rules yet (or at least more full than what the general public has seen). I really respect your opinions, and so I was looking forward to seeing Paizo's reaction to the rules in their full context. It will undoubtedly influence my own opinion of them.

1) that we genuinely believe that the 3.5 system is the best rules set available to tell stories set in our world

Vic, I'm curious to know whether or not Paizo made this decision based on seeing official 4e rules or not. If this has been stated somewhere else, my apologies. My understanding is that the GSL has still not been released, so I'm wondering if you guys got more information about 4e anyway.

*calls a favor in from a demon lord or three*

"Stomp this thread for me, would you darlings?"

STOMP! STOMP! STOMP!

It is possible that there is some 4E definition of '1 round' which makes my idea (based upon an older edition understanding of what 1 round is) utterly invalid.

I'm not sure what you mean. What indication have we been given that a round is anything other than one cycle through the initiative order? Besides, it actually says the bonus lasts "until the start of your next turn." I was just referring to it as 1 round.

You are right, though. I think it would be advantageous to use the healing surge when you both need the healing and have many enemies trying to kill you.

If it weren't for the fact that it uses up a standard action I can see some players with injuries deliberately activating Second Wind on the first round of combat for the 'healing surge and +2 bonus to defenses', since Second Wind is a per encounter power which will recharge with a 5 minute rest; although I suspect that at some point there will be a class or feat out there that allows activation of Second Wind as a move or minor action....

There already is. There are images up of the character sheets from D&D XP, and Dwarven Resilience is an ability to use Second Wind as a minor action. However, I don't really see how what you are describing is any kind of exploit or anything. The +2 bonus to defenses lasts only 1 round, and you can only use it once in any given encounter. Also, you only get so many per day. I don't really see anyone burning their second wind just for that purpose... Unless I'm missing something you are saying.

Never mind; I thought it was funny!

But then, I am a sarcastic ranting bastard.

I thought it was funny too. And I'm NOT a sarcastic ranting bastard... well, not all at the same time anyway ;)

Let's hope this thread doesn't turn into a repeat of my "Sandpoint is Amazing" thread...>.>

Well, I hope it does! But only the part where Wes and Sutter were vying for the affections of Paizo's gay male fans. ;)

Now I'm off to check out Korvosa!

It will happen faster if we can ever find somebody to fill Gary's open programmer position.

-Lisa

If it is still open in about two years, I will send you a resume. ;)

Back at the Rusty Dragon, the group was met with cheers from the patrons, and a round of drinks were provided on the house for the “heroes” of Sandpoint. Ameiko and the crowd asked to hear more stories of their adventures, but no one seemed to have much to share. To appease the crowd, though, Mr. Hopperhill got up and told the fantastic story of how his father defeated a giant snake. After the exciting tale, Ameiko returned to the stage to sing the Ballad of the Desna-Blessed Maiden, while the group got to know one another better.

The next morning, while nursing hangovers, the group decided to explore town a bit and try to find out what they could do to help in the aftermath of the goblin raid. They went to the cathedral, and then to the city garrison, where they met Sheriff Belor Hemlock. Noalani asked about the town’s earlier troubles, mentioned the day before at the festival. The sheriff explained about the Late Unpleasantness, as the locals called it. About five years ago, Sandpoint experienced a rash of murders committed by a person known as Chopper, for the state in which the victims were found. The clues eventually led back to one of the most beloved, if somewhat eccentric, citizen’s of Sandpoint – Jervis Stoot. The town was shocked and devastated at the news, and then shortly thereafter endured a second tragedy. The Sandpoint Chapel caught fire and burned to the ground, taking with it the town’s beloved priest Ezakien Tobyn. Several other buildings were also destroyed or heavily damaged in the fire before it was contained, and it’s taken the town until now to fully rebuild.

The group offered its services to the town guard as they all felt the goblin raid was just the beginning of something bigger. Sheriff Hemlock said that he had his people working on it, and the heroes ought to enjoy the town a bit. He said he would contact them if he needed them. After doing some shopping in town, they returned to the Rusty Dragon to meet up with the noble they saved the day before. On the way, Adier noticed some girls shyly giggling as he passed by.

At dinner, Aldern Foxglove thanked the group again for saving him, and he offered to take them boar hunting with him. So the next morning they left early in the morning for the Goblin Squash Stables, where Aldern promised to buy each of the heroes a horse (“and ponies for the wee ones.”) On the way, they ran into a hobbling, elderly Varisian woman, who kept pinching Adier’s cheeks and cackling happily to herself. She seemed a bit batty as she rambled on in the language of her people, but Noalani was able to understand her words and recognized the wisdom in her eyes.

The stable-owner, a man named Daviren Hosk, was amicable but slightly bitter-sounding. His distaste for goblins was evident in the scores of goblin ears preserved and nailed to the rafters of the stables. Aldern purchased the horses and soon the group was headed out of town toward the Tickwood to hunt.

On the way, Aldern asked question after question of the group. He was certainly taken with Noalani, and blushed when he realized he was all but ignoring everyone else. Noalani talked of her devotion to Desna, and Teosi spoke of her mother’s decision to settle in Nybor. Mr. Hopperhill told of his time near Wolf’s Ear and his parents’ explorations in the Churlwood, while Adier said that before he became a “hero” he was in the business of tourism and perhaps “a little trade too.” When asked about himself, Aldern Foxglove admitted that while he was from a fairly wealthy family in Magnimar, his life was terribly boring in comparison – all about estates, servants, and bureaucratic dullness, really.

Soon they came to the woods, and left the horses to hunt on foot. Teosi found some boar tracks, and Vaela managed to track them for a ways. Out of nowhere they were ambushed by two fire-pelt cougars, hoping for easy prey. Teosi was knocked unconscious, but they were able to scare the cougars away and Noalani said a prayer to Desna to heal Teosi. After the fight, Noalani discovered a potion in her backpack with a note attached – “Good luck! –Ameiko.” To their surprise, everyone else found the same in each of their packs.

Eventually they came to a small clearing, and Vaela held her hand up to signal the group to stop and be quiet. Up ahead, a large boar was rutting in the dirt. Though they managed to surprise the boar, it was a very tough fight, and several people were wounded badly by its goring tusks. However, in the end, Teosi was able to defeat it and then ran to help her fallen comrades. They brought the boar back to the Rusty Dragon, where Ameiko gladly offered to prepare it for the evening meal at the inn.

"Stop trying to ruin our Christmas family!"

[Because our group recently dispersed into a few widespread cities, this campaign is being played online via Fantasy Grounds. The program is really pretty cool (and provides me with a chatlog which makes writing this journal much easier), but it's taking us a while to get the hang of some things. Thus, the first 3 sessions didn't have a whole lot happen, so I've combined them into this one post.]

A woman with short auburn hair stood up on the stage near the cathedral, four chairs behind her, three of them occupied. As the crowd began to notice her, a hush descended and all eyes turned toward her.

The woman introduced herself as Kendra Deverin, mayor of Sandpoint, and gave a speech welcoming everyone to the festival and thanking them for keeping the community strong and vibrant. After her, Sheriff Belor Hemlock led the crowd in a moment of silence for the victims of the fire five years ago and then reminded everyone to be careful during the festival. Next, Cyrdak Drokkus, proprietor of the local theater, cheered the crowd with a rousing tale of the building of the new cathedral. Lastly, Father Zantus gave a blessing and declared the festival underway.

The crowd roared as music from a previously unassuming troupe of musicians filled the square. People began dancing and children ran to play in the streets. Booth-workers called out, enticing excited consumers to try their wares. The mood in Sandpoint reached a high seldom seen.

Noalani grabbed Votha Hopperhill by the arm, pulling him into a merry dance. The bewildered old halfling smiled and joined in. Ameiko was there, selling her famous spiced salmon and curry-dusted chickpeas. She recognized the patrons of her inn and called them over, asking how they were enjoying the festival while Teosi eagerly purchased a plate of food. Vaela sat down out of the mid-morning sun to watch the festival, while Adier wandered about. Teosi and Mr. Hopperhill introduced themselves to each other and Mr. Hopperhill mentioned that he was hoping to find some traveling companions here in town.

At noon, several acolytes of the cathedral wheeled a large covered wagon into the square. Father Zantus told the parable of how Desna transformed a little child into an immortal butterfly for nursing her back to health after she fell to the earth. Then they opened the wagon and a thousand swallowtail butterflies swarmed into the air as the crowd cheered.

The sun was setting, and the crowd gathered in the square once again for the consecration ceremony. Just as Father Zantus was about to speak, a woman’s scream sliced through the air. Another scream, and then another! Soon several high-pitched shrieks, not quite human added to the din. Something low to the ground raced by, giggling, and a stray dog gave a pained yelp and collapsed, its throat cut ear to ear. Suddenly, shrill scratchy voices began singing a strange song…

Goblins chew and goblins bite.
Goblins cut and goblins fight.
Stab the dog and cut the horse,
Goblins eat and take by force!

The goblin that had killed the dog fixed his eyes upon Vaela, the little gnome, and charged at her, swinging his dogslicer, but she narrowly dodged out of the way. The crowd scattered in a panic, and the soon-to-be heroes leapt into action. Introductions seemed rather unimportant for the moment as they suddenly found themselves fighting side by side. They bravely fought the goblin and a few others that appeared, defeating them soundly.

As they caught their breaths, a sudden bloom of fire caught their attention. Near the cathedral, a cart full of fuel was engulfed in flames while several goblins danced around it gleefully. One of them seemed to lead them, carrying a whip and chanting loudly. Goblins were everywhere, chasing townspeople, wreaking havoc. After a difficult battle, the heroes proved victorious once again, Vaela’s hammer landing the final blow on the goblin warchanter.

Just as they thought the chaos had ended, they heard a fearful scream and frantic barking coming from up the road. Goblins had attacked a noble and cornered his hunting dog. Just as the heroes arrived, the goblin commando killed the dog with his large horsechopper, and he and his friends turned to face the noble. Once again, the heroes leapt into action, Adier charging in and slicing through a goblin with his longsword. It was a very tough battle – Adier went unconscious and Noalani was dropped to zero hitpoints. They came through in the end though, and they defeated the goblins.

“Thank you all so very, very much! You've saved my life! Alas, poor Blade, my dog. Loyal to the end, he was.” Turning to Noalani, the noble smiled and said, “You, my dear, were simply marvelous. I must say, your skill at combat can only be matched by your stunning beauty. Have I seen you before?”

Noalani replied, “I don't believe so. I am Noalani. You are?”

“My gods, now, I've forgotten my manners. My name is Aldern Foxglove, and I'm from Magnimar, though I'll be in town here a few more days. I'm staying at the Rusty Dragon Inn, and when you get the chance, I'd love to talk with all of you more and perhaps reward you properly for saving me from a terrible goblin-ing!”

Finding themselves drawn together by their heroics and by the opportunity for reward, the group decided to convene back at the Rusty Dragon for a celebratory drink. By this time, the battle had been decided. Surviving goblins fled north in droves, in some cases preferring to leap to their certain death off cliffs rather than be captured. Night began to fall, and the town began picking up the pieces of what had been quite a lovely festival.

It was the morning of the Swallowtail Festival, a day-long celebration of the goddess Desna on the first day of autumn. The citizens of Sandpoint were especially celebratory, as they would be consecrating their newly built cathedral that day, after the old chapel burned down five years ago.

The PCs arrived to town mostly independent of one another. Noalani and Votha Hopperhill met along the road when Mr. Hopperhill came across the caravan Noalani was traveling with. She was on her way to attend the Swallowtail Festival, and he was on the open road seeking new surroundings. The old halfling decided to tag along with the caravan and spent a few nights chatting with Noalani about faith and other matters. They arrived in Sandpoint the evening before the festival and sought lodging at the Rusty Dragon Inn.

Two of the others had already arrived to town earlier that day. Vaela had passed by the White Deer Inn, its three stories a bit too lofty for the diminutive gnome. She wandered through the streets, taking in the sights and smells of the bustling town – particularly the smells from the Sandpoint Savories, where she purchased some stickybuns from the twin Avertin girls. She eventually made her way to Sandpoint’s other inn, the Rusty Dragon. As Vaela entered the inn, Teosi was just leaving it.

Teosi had just arrived to Sandpoint, hoping to earn some money as a dancer during the festival. At the Rusty Dragon, she inquired about a room from the halfling woman at the desk, but then the owner of the inn entered the room and introduced herself. Ameiko Kaijitsu recognized Teosi as a fellow adventurer and offered her a discount if she would share a story or two that evening. Teosi had few stories to tell, but said she would be happy to perform a few dances.

That evening, Noalani, Mr. Hopperhill, Vaela, and Teosi all enjoyed the great food and great entertainment the Rusty Dragon is known for. Many great stories were told, Ameiko herself performed a few songs, and Teosi danced.

Early the next morning, Adier Dow arrived to Sandpoint. As he entered the square near the new cathedral, people were busily setting up for the day’s festivities. Teosi had also gotten up early and was exploring the square.

"You know, it really is a wonderful honor to their memories," one elderly woman said, stopping to admire the new cathedral. "Father Tobyn was so kind, and that young girl was surely a gift from the gods themselves."

"It's true," replied her friend. "And I can't believe it has been five years already. Perhaps now we can put that all behind us."

“Oh, for the love of Gozreh!" a one-legged man shouted to the young man carrying a crate of supplies, hobbling around with his palm on his forehead. "I told him not to eat those scallops. Now how are we going to get everything from the Hagfish to here in time for the festival?"

Adier turned toward the one-legged man and said, "Pardon me, guv, but I couldn't help overhearing your frustration. If it's some portage ye be needin', I'd be more than happy to help."

The man agreed to pay Adier for his services and showed him where to begin hauling.

Soon it was mid-morning and a crowd was gathering in the square for the opening ceremonies. The PCs were all in attendance, though none of them knew each other yet except for Noalani and Mr. Hopperhill. A woman with short auburn hair stood up on the stage near the cathedral, four chairs behind her, three of them occupied. As the crowd began to notice her, a hush descended and all eyes turned toward her.

This is a journal of our group’s exploits in Varisia, in the world of the Pathfinder Chronicles. I’m drawing primarily from the Rise of the Runelords AP, but giving the players ample room to take the story in the direction they want. Since I’m hoping my players will read and contribute to this journal, please refrain from posting any spoilers.

We actually started playing quite a while ago, but I haven’t gotten around to starting this journal until now. I’m hoping to get caught up over the next week or so. The first entry is from before the game started. Via email, I tried to get everyone’s characters introduced into the town and the story. The entry after that will be our first actual session.

The characters:
Adier Dow – male Chelaxian fighter
Noalani – female Varisian cleric of Desna
Teosi – female Varisian rogue
Vaela – female gnome ranger
Votha Hopperhill – male halfling druid

No one is saying that PCs shouldn't die. They are saying they shouldn't die because of random, arbitrary events that they are helpless to do anything about (e.g. save or die effects).

That reminds me of a story....

E. said, afterwards, that all PC's deaths should be meaningful, but sometimes the meaning isn't obvious at first. She'd been looking, and after four years, found a way to bring purpose to a random death-by-acid-beast.

In the story above, the fact that the wizard died from a save or die effect -- oh actually, upon re-reading, it wasn't a save or die effect, which makes it even less likely that the story has real relevance. No matter how the wizard died, it has no bearing on how four years later the DM found a way to bring back the memory of the beloved PC. The random death didn't achieve "purpose" -- saying "oh hey this was the item I took from so-and-so when s/he died" doesn't give the death purpose, though it's a nice opportunity to reminisce.

One more story about dying being more heroic than surviving...

To get to the death part, we encountered a hag that inflicted a Cloudkill spell, and the poor rogue/cleric failed his save. In the meantime, he had converted a dwarven PC to worship of Aether, and he built a magnificnet mausoleum, complete with everburning flames. Additionally, several NPCs had been converted. The site would eventually become a pilgrimage destination.

Again, it isn't the death itself that gives this story meaning. It is that the character stayed alive long enough to evangelize, build a mausoleum, and create a following, and then when he died (whether in a long battle or with one unlucky roll -- it doesn't matter), what he achieved in life lived on and grew.

Someone said that being a hero is taking risks. It isn't just that. It is taking risks and achieving something great. Anyone can play Russian roulette with a wand of disintegrate and hope to make his save -- that doesn't make him a hero. Yes, history is full of tragic heroes. Perhaps the hero doesn't ultimately survive, but at least she achieved something. Leonidas and the 300 are not heroes simply because they took a risk. It is because they stood their ground well, and they went down fighting.

No one is saying that it should be a walk in the park for PCs. Risk of death should certainly be a part of the game. But why must that risk take the form of arbitrary save-or-die effects? There are plenty of other types of risks that will give PCs a lot more satisfaction in facing, and allow them to do something truly heroic before they die.

Did I miss something? Am I just dense? What is line of effect? Is it line of sight? Is it the ability to use a power? What is it?

...Throwing out terms without a context is just frustrating.

Page 310 of the 3.5 Player's Handbook:

When I read the article, I knew exactly what he was talking about when he used the term. It also seems fairly self-explanatory, especially if you are familiar with "line of sight." I don't think it is unfair to assume the reader would understand it without a definition.

Since you have one newbie and you are a little rusty yourself, I would suggest against using gestalt. You have 2 players and a DM, correct? I think it could work out well.

Here's a few suggestions for the DM. Cut back on the number of enemies in the various encounters, in half if possible -- 2 baddies instead of 4, etc. Be careful with the boss encounters. Depending on your DM's rules knowledge, it may be possible to scale back some bosses by a hit die or two, but it's not that important. Quantity of bad guys is the biggest factor in scaling for less/more players. If you didn't do anything else, this alone will probably make the campaign playable with 2 PCs.

I would do a 28 point buy (or maybe 32), start you out with a couple healing potions (first level PCs are fragile), and see how it goes. There are some options throughout Rise of the Runelords for NPCs to tag along with the party, which could help even things out. Focus more on adapting the encounters to a smaller party than on powering up the party, otherwise you end up swinging between stomping all over the bad guys or getting creamed yourself. Besides, you may get a few weeks into it and find another friend who wants to try playing.

As for choosing classes, you can try to cover the roles of missing archetypes (bards can cure, rogues can use magic device, barbarians can absorb trap damage rather than disable, etc -- or you can look at some hybrid-like classes: duskblade, spellthief, favored soul, etc).

Unless your DM wants the extra work, I would avoid using a DMPC. As I mentioned, there are some NPCs in the adventure path who can accompany the party once in a while to help you in difficult areas, but personally I think a DMPC is just too much work. Besides, it can easily end up robbing the PCs of the spotlight.

This looks really promising to me. I really like the idea that the flashy, specialized feats are now class abilities and that feats are now more about fine-tuning your character's attributes.

As for the thought that it will limit you (e.g. a cleric not being able to take spring attack), I'm pretty sure there will be plenty of options for interesting tactics to make up for the loss of a particular tactic from 3.5 -- there may even be a spring attack-like "power" for clerics to take.

Honestly sometimes I think it'd be less of a headache just to swallow my pride and buy the stupid subscription. But then again, it's free and I can't get it to load--who says it would load even if I paid them.

Forgive me, but I think you may be misunderstanding something. There is no subscription to buy -- it's not a question of should I or shouldn't I buy it, it just doesn't exist yet. Unless there is a problem with your browser settings, you shouldn't be having a persistent problem accessing the site. What error do you get when it tries to load? If it says you need to be logged in, you simply need to register and log in HERE. You don't pay for anything (or even give any payment information).

You are correct. On p. 175-6 of the PHB it defines a "line-shaped" spell as one that shoots away from you in a line. It starts from your square and extends to its range limit. It affects all creatures in squares that the line passes through or touches.

Moreover, with a range of 120 feet, the spell can't affect anything beyond a 120-foot radius from the caster.

Your post just seemed a little...harsh.

A little harsh? Geez, Sebastian, it looks like you are losing your touch. ;)

And just to throw a little something somewhat on topic in the mix -- Are we sure Paizo will even be able to say they have the rules yet? Wouldn't they likely be under some NDA disallowing them from disclosing that they even have the rules? Just a thought. (Although I, too, would love to know how far along we are).

Don't let that go to your head Paolo!

yeah, uh... too late for that ;)

Paolo wrote:

Anyone know where mine is from? It looks a little like a tiefling, but I'm really not sure.

Yeah, you're Graz'zt, the Dark Prince. Can't remember what source-not the Book of Vile Darkness, nor the recent Demonomicon either . . . so congrats, you're one of the big cheeses.

OMG, really? I totally never actually knew what Graz'zt looked like. Woot! I'm a demon lord!

"He is considered the comeliest demon in the Abyss, and dresses in the most expensive and elegant finery on the entire plane....Graz'zt's greatest weapons, however, are his mastery of seduction and guile."

Yup, that's totally me ;)

Anyone know where mine is from? It looks a little like a tiefling, but I'm really not sure.

That's right, what if we don't switch? By 'we' I mean the Paizo community and any and all connected to us.

I think the first problem with this is that the "we" you are referring to isn't really as unified as you may be assuming. There are quite a few of us among the Paizo community (and I'm guessing among the staff) that actually DO want to switch (or are at least looking forward to trying it out). Moreover, we would like Paizo to switch as well.

I think too often discussions of 4e break down into an "us" versus "them" mentality, where WotC are the bad "them," who are making the game we don't want and Paizo are the good "us" who want to keep the game the same. I, for one, like what I see in 4e, and I like Paizo (and especially the Pathfinder setting). I would like them to go together.

I'm not trying to argue with you. And I certainly believe that those of you who are hoping for a future without 4e have a right to discuss what it could possibly end up like. But I think it is important to remember that such a viewpoint doesn't reflect ALL of us Paizonians.

Paolo wrote:

It bothered me that he would disallow a player race just because there wasn't a place for that culture in his starting town. And to say to a player, "Sorry but you can only play that race after your first character dies," doesn't really encourage the player to invest in his or her character very much.

You probably wouldn't like any of my games then...Half-orcs are forbidden.

Well, that depends on a few things. Why are they forbidden?

If it is because they don't exist in the campaign world, I'm fine with that. If it is because you don't like the mechanics of them, I'm fine with that. If it is because you don't believe that they will fit in with the standard adventuring group (my biggest complaint with drow characters), I'm fine with that.

My point was that tieflings exist in the world, but not in his starting town, so he was restricting his players from playing one. That I didn't like.

So yes, if you said "Sure, there are half-orcs in my world, but you can't play one, because Sandpoint doesn't have any for you to relate to, but maybe some day when you get to a bigger city like Magnimar, your character can die and then you can play one," then I wouldn't like your game ;)

I was a bit bothered by this as well, but not for the same reasons.

It bothered me that he would disallow a player race just because there wasn't a place for that culture in his starting town. And to say to a player, "Sorry but you can only play that race after your first character dies," doesn't really encourage the player to invest in his or her character very much.

I honestly have no problems with tieflings as a core race. I disagree with the notion that player races must represent the most populous races of the world (classes certainly don't, otherwise commoner would be a core PC class). If I were making a small town for my PCs to start in, it probably wouldn't have NPC tieflings either, but that wouldn't make me restrict the players. Player characters are supposed to be not quite ordinary.

I imagine that in 4e I will approach tieflings a lot like I do half-orcs now (or really just the way I do tieflings now, since they can be played albeit with a level adjustment). They are by no means common. They don't really have their own culture or society. They are basically the result of a somewhat rare interspecies mating. They aren't completely welcome in either species' societies. They are outsiders (not the planar kind, though).

So I don't think the fact that James Wyatt can't (or more accurately won't) fit tieflings into his starting town is discouraging regarding 4e. Nor do I think it is indicative of how well tieflings fit as a core race. I just think it was a poor decision.

EDIT: I mean a poor decision to restrict players from playing tieflings. I don't have any problem with saying they aren't common to the area or in the town.

Should I be scared and practice the American National Anthem ???

Nah, don't worry about that. Half of us can't even get the words right, ourselves ;)

That I shouldn't have to sign up for D&DI to read a "free preview."

You don't have to sign up for it. Or at least, not any more than you need to "sign up" to post on their forums, or these forums for that matter. If you already have a login for the WotC forums, you don't have to do anything, just sign in. I really don't see what the big issue is. It is still very much free.

I think this got buried in the Norah's Tank thread. I photoshopped up a couple pictures to use for my group (we play online). I thought I'd make them available for other DMs to use (since I've appropriated my own share of useful tidbits off these boards). One is Norah in her tank, the other is someone scooping out a tankard full of slimy water.

You can find them HERE.

I remember seeing something in the blog in July about a star-knife throwing prestige class for clerics of Desna.

In Pathfinder 2, we will be getting a whole article on Desna (similar to the Core Beliefs series), which is supposed to include a prestige class.

I photoshopped up some pictures to use for my group (we play online). They are by no means professional quality, but they could be useful!

One is Norah in her tank, the other is someone scooping out a mug full of slimy water.

You should be able to find them HERE .

I hope I did that right -- never used flickr before.

Ah here you go. Check out THIS thread.

I am giving them in addition to all normal feats. I also believe their intent (at least from the perspective of James Jacobs as expressed in some other thread somewhere) is to be additional feats beyond the normal feats. If you look at the iconics in the back, they all have one as an extra feat. I think the reasoning is that they are not really overpowering and that they are more about helping your PCs have a Varisian flavor.

I get mocked incessantly for the Michigan hand thing.

Other people just don't understand how convenient it is to have a state shaped like a hand. Oh, and you can even take your other hand and put it sideways above and it resembles the upper peninsula. Then you can't point, but it looks neat!

Incidentally, what part of MI are you from, Sebastian? Grand Rapids, myself (where we like to call ourselves West Michigan, as if it were a separate state, instead of western Michigan).