OperationsKT's page

Actually, I kinda found it, it's just not in an easy PDF form.

https://paizo.com/pathfinder/faq

Under "Pathfinder Core Rulebook Errata (Remaster Compatability)", so I guess it would not be too hard to drop that into a PDF on your own if you wanted...

Did they ever put out the "PF2e Core Rules to PF2e Remaster" changes document?

Will the Player Core 2 also have the rules, so that a player doesn't need to have both this book and Player Core 1 with them to play a class from Player Core 2?

I also think 'Player Core Expansion' is a strong title and much better than 'Player Core 2'.

I dislike 'Monster Core', because it's a little simplistic, sounds like a music genre and is already the title of a series of fantasy erotica by one "Dante King" (google it).

No. I refuse.

I'm confident that the new "core" books will have a paragraph or two on their back covers clarifying what is in them and what other books (if any) are recommended. Furthermore, online booksellers like Paizo and Amazon will also have that same text (or more).

Previous Paizo rulebooks have this. My 5e hardcover Player's Handbook has it. Every ebook and most other things I've bought from Amazon have it.

I would not count on that for Amazon. Take a look at their current product listings for 1st Edition Pathfinder Pocket editions vs 2nd edition pocket editions. I had to warn 2 people from my public table off of accidentally buying the 1st ed pocket books in their attempts to find print books this last month.

My only real issue with PC1 vs PC2 is that PC2 will (according to the current product page) be smaller, not have all the core rules needed to play, yet be the same price as PC1. However, I understand that there is a kind of set price based on overall size and page count ranges for hardcovers these days (at least if you want properly bound ones that will not fall apart).

Still, I think it would be nice if PC2 had all the rules of PC1 as well, then a player could simply by the one that had their favorite class and be ready to play. But I get why that could make them unwieldy.

Player Core Expansion 1 (to go with Player Core 1) could make more clear sense, honestly.

breithauptclan wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

I see people using two major different definitions of "compatible".

Going with your descriptions of the definitions, I would say that PF2 Remaster is going to be 'Fully Compatible'. Same as the 4th printing of the CRB is 'Fully Compatible' with the 1st printing.

There will be no math changes or level up progression changes. Existing monster stat blocks can be used without any modifications.

There are two noted significant changes. One is the removal and replacement of alignment. That is pretty equivalent to the removal and replacement of the boost, boost, boost, flaw ancestry entries. The other is the errata and changes to a few classes. That is equivalent to the errata and changes made to the Alchemist already (second printing and fourth printing both had noticeable changes to Alchemist).

I expect bigger changes than we already have in any reprints. But I agree with breithauptclan. None of the will change the basic rules and math. Even if the book completely rewrite a class or an ancestry for example the basic rules and compatibility still the same.

For example, imagine that we will have a new Champion completely rewritten no more depending from it's alignment just based in it's "oaths" with new mechanics and feats. It will still able to play any currently game because the base ruleset is the same.

These changes basically are like a revision into currently ancestries, classes, spells, feats and etc like any new class and ancestry does including keeping allowed to play with older versions and with older APs printed before (like playing AoA using a Summoner).

That's why call it as some kind of PF 2.5 is probably the most correct unofficial view. When D&D 3.5 was made you still able to play using old books and adventures, when PF1 was release (unofficially called as 3.75) you could do the same. Probably the most tables will in general abandon the old options due their own choices like happend to 3.5 and PF1 in favor of newer...

Really, I would not call it 2.5. If they keep the mechanical changes minimal and mostly focus on replacing OGL language, I would call this more 2.05 (with the current 4th printing 2.04).

I always kinda wanted to try out cthulhutech but heard it wasn't super good system, same with eclipse phase... But then there are other systems that are about as praised as cypher as well that seem interesting to at least test out but I don't have time to.

Semi-off topic, but the issue I have with Eclipse Phase (at least 2nd edition) is not the rules, but the setting. As in the setting is very, very dense, and it 100% requires player buy in and interest to learn the setting _as well as_ the rules.

Back to on semi-topic, as part of this change is for the ORC license, have we seen the final public version of it yet? It's very possible I missed it. The last few months have been wild, both IRL, work, and with my games hobbies.

WatersLethe wrote:

7. Even with everything that's changing, this STILL feels like a 2.1 at most to me.

A mid-edition remaster that splits the player book in two and distributes the classes differently between them?

This is not 2.5 or 2.1. This is Pathfinder Essentials.

I remember that. It wasn't the greatest then, but they also really split those up so, SO wrong.

Offer ...

Thanks, I'll run it by them and get back to you if they are interested. I do have a linux laptop I can use for web apps if we have to.

I'd like to see a change in the ability score names, which I think can be associated with the OGL. I always thought it should be AGILITY rather than DEXTERITY.

From what I've read sounds like that is on the agenda. The original names are from OGL I think.

OperationsKT wrote:

Just my thoughts. Like, this all sounds exciting, but not sure Paizo has fully thought out the timing, budgets and logistics of people looking to convert now in the wake of WotC both screwing with the OGL and sending a PMC after a gamer...

You have no idea how much we've wrestled with the timing, and how to balance an influx of interest in the game with the needs of transitioning the game away from the OGL and to the ORC.

{snip huge well thought out answer for space, seriously, it was very good, go read it}

Thank you for the very honest, frank, and detailed answer. This does settle a lot of my concerns that if we want to continue playing now and some folks at the table buy books they can find NOW that it won't hurt the majority of their characters or play experience.

Thank you. This is an answer that we NEVER would have gotten from WotC.

But to be fair, the timing kinda sucks...especially for the people who moved to PF2 recently because of WotC's shenanigans. Reacting with hostility and/or sarcasm to these people -- who are (imo reasonably) upset that the game that they just bought into is already changing -- is the opposite of productive.

Thank you, that is my main point.

I get it, WotC kinda forced their hand. But for those on budgets that just got into PF2e, this stings.

I know they will have a free changes document, but in the meantime, there are just no dead tree copies out there for people looking to get started.

You have celebrations and questions? Join Jason Bulmahn, our Director of Game Design, on Twitch today at 1 PM Pacific. Then Erik Mona, our Publisher and Chief Creative Officer will be interviewed on Roll for Combat’s YouTube channel at 2 PM Pacific: https://www.youtube.com/@RollForCombat.

Edit: These cover are not final. Stay tuned!

I know this wasn't intentional (and might have been in the works before OGHell spawned the ORC) but the timing could not be worse for my public table.

We have one copy of the Core Rulebook and Bestiary (mine). The other GM and I sold them on the idea of PF2e _because_ it was cheaper buy in for full rules than D&D (2 books, at $60 + $50 for $110+ tax vs D&D 3 books at $50 each for $150) with more options put into those books. Even cheaper, we noted, if you went Pocket Edition!

Yeah, they could not find any books now, but we had my set at least. Enough to go on while they waited for books to come back in stock.

We helped them make characters, we demoed the game, they liked it. We got them set up with some setting details in their characters, were planning to move forward, a couple were planning on buying Core Rulebooks.

Now, the player cost to entry has doubled, because 3 of the players classes are in a 2nd book now (Barbarian, Alchemist, Champion), that doesn't have all the core rules alone, so they have to buy 2 books at $120. Their cost doubled!

The other GM was also planning on buying books. So, his cost has gone from $110 to $240. I can afford this thanks to a good job, but the rest of this public table is poor college kids or even high school kids. They are NOT flush with cash, and neither are their families.

"Just use PDF or AoN!" I already can hear frothy fanboys saying. Yeah, I can, I work in IT, I get all this stuff. But this area is a rural area. They barely understand their phones (if they own one). 3 of them are neurodivergent and we just _cannot keep them on task and focused during game_ if a phone comes out. We _need_ dead tree for this table. And yes, Pocket is coming, but _even further out_.

Now, you say that the old books will work, but _if you can't find them right now because WotC sold you out of 8 months of your stock_ then they really won't have any option BUT to get the new ones. And half the table having to wait a full YEAR for their classes seems kinda, well, cruel.

Just my thoughts. Like, this all sounds exciting, but not sure Paizo has fully thought out the timing, budgets and logistics of people looking to convert now in the wake of WotC both screwing with the OGL and sending a PMC after a gamer...

Been a long time since I been back here, but all the news and the deal got me to finally bite on the 2nd Ed Core Book.

I had the PDF already from the Ukraine Humble Bundle, but such a hefty tome is easier to read in physical form, so order placed. Now the waiting game.

What other books are recommended for a "lite table" of Pathfinder 2e?

I miss that game a lot. Played an almost 2 year game of it. Used to have a website for it all, but it's long since dead.

Still have one of the IC logs however, as a word document.

Bit of thread necromancy here, but I didn't want to start a new one for this.

I found an EXISTING solution, already published by Paizo.

The older, pre-Pathfinder Core softcover books (64 pages) like the Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer and the like, like these;

http://paizo.com/products/btpy82t7?Pathfinder-Chronicles-Gazetteer

http://paizo.com/products/btpy85eh?Pathfinder-Chronicles-Gods-Magic

Or, really any of the stuff listed here I think:

http://paizo.com/pathfinder/campaignSetting/35E

I got the first two I listed up above, and they have lots of fluff, but little crunch to add to the game. Works great with the Beginner Box, and also fit in it. At least the two I have do, with room for maybe one more.

So, there is an option, already made, if you want to stick to a Beginner Box game but still have a few more options.

D&D 4e (I can't figure out how to avoid minis to my satisfaction)

I've done it. You just have to focus on using more minions and critters with powers that don't 'move' things, and let your players know that powers that focus on moving will be not as useful. Keep it to one non-minion enemy per fight and it's pretty doable.

TOZ wrote:

That's unusual. I believe paladins are champions of good more than of law. thus any good seems a better fit.

This is my take on it as well, though I would also prefer if they were a prestige class. They are too niche compared to other core classes.

Well, that is a valid take, but I take a different view. From the class description in the PRD--

Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline.

Emphasis mine.

I see Paladins as less about pure good, as the good that comes out of order and following the laws set out in their 'holy scriptures.'

However, you could just as easy make the case for any of the Good alignments as well in your games. I just think that having to use the Lawful axis allows for the anti-paladin concept and LN is pretty much the Judge archetype.

*Yawn*

Another pointless thread about people's inability to ignore rules in a book. Yay.

Play a lawful barbarian. I doubt Paizo will send Cosmo to confiscate your dice.

Alignments: The dumbest thing they put in D&D.

Very true.

I let the Barbarian not-Lawful thing stand, because it still leaves a lot of options for them to be. (Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Neutral Evil, and so on).

For any games I ran with alignments, I just said that Paladins had to be LAWFUL, but the rest was up to them and their god(s). So, Pallys had to be LG, LN, or LE.

So, it seems we have two factors--

1) Many folks, like me, seem to like the rules lite approach of the BB.

2) Paizo has a vested money interest in getting people into adventure paths because that pays the bills (and frankly, that makes more sense than the WotC model of system bloat to try and pay the bills).

So, perhaps a middle road idea. A 'Beginner Box 2' (or as I'd call it for the old school folks, the "Expert Box") and then a series of Adventure Paths for BB/EB that, having the same rules as BB/EB (which means, the same as CRB leaving out some stuff), would just as easily adapt to the full Pathfinder rules (and by adapt, I mean 'pretty much run as written'). I could see the main setting book (Inner Sea Guide) being useful to pretty much both. I've briefly looked through it (still debating on buy) and it seems not really crunch heavy except for NPCs.

Does that sound like a reasonable idea and compromise between the two desires? Anyone else think that sounds reasonable?

I'll be honest. I love the BB. I'd run that for my 'fantasy fix' game. But I have the CRB and I have the same issues with that that I did v3.5. I'll play if offered, but I'm not running that, and not buying adventure paths for it. I had my fill of running that intensive a prep game 5 years ago.

I would seriously consider Adventure Paths for a BB/EB line. And I would buy an EB in a heartbeat.

Wonder how well this would read on a Kindle...

Using a complex system and enjoying it is just one of many approaches to roleplaying. Systems like Savage Worlds, or BRP are very easy to play and learn and alot of excellent roleplayers and veterans are enjoying them. (not only casuals or newbies)

So in conclusio - one can say that rule complexity has nothing to do with veteran or newbie, only with personal preferences.

Indeed. I could be counted as one of those 'vetran' players. I've been playing since I was 12 (started with the real Red Box, not that aborted abomination of a poor copy from last year), and I'm 35 now. That's 23 years. People of all ages like to play my games. I have had a few cases of some people paying OTHER people to not play so they can have the open slot.

Savage Worlds and BRP are two of my personal top 3 games. nWoD is the third. Shadowrun and Battletch fight for 4th place because they both pull at my nostalgic heartstrings. Pathfinder and 4th Ed fight for 5th place, again because they both relate to nostalgia.

But my top 3 are games that are easy to learn, teach, prep, and play quick. Why? Because at my age I am not putting more time into studying a game book than I am for finishing my Bachelor degree.

You need Fast, Furious, Fun!?
Try Savage Worlds since you are pretty much describing it. Minimal bookkeeping, fast, fun, easy to improvise, takes very little mental space allowing you to concentrate on roleplay etc.

I gotta agree there. Currently, Savage Worlds is the top of my top 3 games.

My interest in Pathfinder these days comes from the Beginner Box and the fact that I keep getting invited to play, and as I run 98% of the games I'm involved in, getting to play would be nice.

If Paizo ever made something akin to WotC's Monster Vault, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Not holding my breath though.

Agreed. The Monster Vault was one of the few things the Essentials line got RIGHT.

I got the Beginner Box a few weeks back. I like it.

Then I got the Pathfinder Core book because I wanted to compare, and I keep getting invited to actually play in a game of it.

While Pathfinder is pretty much v3.5 D&D with all the house-rules I used already in it and a few new features, it is still v3.5 in essence, which still means it has all the issues I had with v3.5.

Mostly related to complexity and game-prep time issues. For fairness and full disclosure, I don't even do a lot of 4e anymore because now it has too many books and is more complex than I bought into it for. My current games of choice are Savage Worlds (Necessary Evil, Slipstream, and Weited War II), BRP, and nWoD: Mage.

But I really do like the Beginner Box. It's what Essentials could have been if they had not screwed up the marketing and product packaging (in short, they really should have had one big Player Book for Essentials instead of 2), and actually made them a good introduction to the game.

What I'm asking, or suggesting, is that maybe the 'Beginner' line should continue. Maybe offer a second beginner book with levels 6-20 of the 4 in the box. Another book with Beginner style versions of the other classes and races, levels 1-20. And a Beginner Bestiary. All with the pared down lists of feats, spells, and the like, and the fewer combat options (but point out the golden rule, or that you can adapt rules as desired from the Core Rulebook).

Or, same concept, but keep the Beginner lines levels 1-5 only. Or maybe levels 1-10.

I'd just like to see more like this. I think that the Beginner Box is the optimal level of complexity for the v3.5 rules. Enough options to do most character ideas, but not so many that a guy with limited time to prep and run could miss vital things that could break a game.

Just my two cents.

KT

All I gotta say is I love DMing 4e a lot. It's easier, more intuitive, and takes a lot less of my time to prepare for than v3.5 did (with a family, time is important).

I will admit that why I enjoy the game so much might be that I play a lot of different kinds of games, and so the change to the 4e system is a lot less stark for me.

I actually have DM points on my RPGA membership for the first time in 3 years.

OperationsKT wrote:

Well Tell Amazon, they still insist it doesn't come out till next month.

Amazon expects to have them in stock by september 1st. In an earlier thread Lisa said they would ship to diamonds on august 14th (2 weeks ago). Asuming it takes a week to get there and another week to get to Amazon, September 1st seems about right.

Amazon will fullfill the pre-orders placed before august 14th and will fullfill the rest according to some archaic ritual I have no knowledge of. So if you pre-ordered before the 14th with Amazon, you should be OK. If not, you're better off ordering from Paizo.

Hadn't ordered yet.

I may order from Paizo, if I can afford it. Budget is tight right now, but I want something big and meaty to take with me to read before I ship off to basic training.

We shipped the Beta to our book distributor, so they should be supplying Amazon, though there is no guarantee that your order will be one of the ones fulfilled through Amazon. Basically, once we ship it from our warehouse, it is out of our hands what retailers do with it. The only way to make sure you get one is to buy from us directly or fine one in a retail store that already as them.

On the reprint front, we WILL be doing a reprint soon, but it will probably take almost 2 months for them to work their way back here to Seattle.

-Lisa

Well Tell Amazon, they still insist it doesn't come out till next month.

I want to order it from Amazon (my LGSs do not carry Paizo stuff) but Amazon still lists it as a pre-order.

Is it out yet, or did Amazon just not get any books to sell?

Ouch...

So, all 3 pages of you guys feel dumb now?

People play Mystara/Hollow World to recreate Sinbad, Ray Harryhausen movies, bad Hammer films, Edgar Rice Burroughs' Pellucidar and Barsoom books, get chased by a Brain Collector through Ravenloft-style mists into a Clark Ashton Smith story, defend a city against a 500' tall zombie made from the melded dead of the nearby cemetary, climb up its legs, crawl up its ass, 'Fantastic Voyage'-style, and carve it to pieces from the inside out, hacking its 'driver' to pieces in the head-cockpit and hurling his carcass out the eye-hole with a resounding cheer.

Indeed! Very well said! And that's why I want a 4E Mystara.

Heck, Dragon (pre-Paizo) helped shape the world, maybe after the changes to the GSL, Paizo can get the go ahead for the 4E Mystara.