Ockbald's page

As I said, it was mostly a rant. People are still referencing to this thread in other boards about the differences beteween editions.

If you didn't like it than I am sorry, it was mostly my rambling observations. I should had checked more than the first pages though.

I wanted to say something.
I want to make a small rant at the topic at end, something that has been bothering me since this so called "edition war" and "We refuse to call D&D 4e D&D" movement that here at Paizo we see so strong.

The original poster jumps through hoops to say "D&D? I liked it better when it was a game about fantastical simulation. Anything that isn't that isn't D&D at all."

That is just untrue. Here is why:

D&D was never about simulation. Not only simulation at least. In fact, it was just one of the many elements from the game.

Let me point out that if you want a good game system to simulate a fantasy world, you always had better options in the market. I could list them, but I don't want to sound like a viral marketer or something.

These systems were created with that intention to simulate the world and aspects of it's internal logic to it.

D&D always had a bizarre, almost broken internal logic and some very badly done cosmology that only the Planescape writers managed to get it right, mostly because they tried to be smart, funny and run with the absurd nature of the planes for instance.

All that 4e did was take all that internal logic, and change it to something else. Instead of you having the completely abstract and insane "naturalism" mentioned on the original poster (seriously just read it again. Djiins producing food? Arbritary wipping numbers for monsters families? A DM could easily create that, in fact a DM should create those aspects to fit better on his own world/situation. Treating monsters, NPCs and other aspects of the world as mere numbers is a bad way of doing simulationism or whatever the hell you want to call it.) and change it to another kind of logic. One that treated the game world mostly as a narrative instead of a actual world. The PCs aren't your regular joes, they are "heroes" they are "above" regular Joes since the first level, the encounters they face are always twitched to match their mettle, and so on.

D&D 4e dropped the broken simulationism in favor of a less broken but still having issues narrative simulation.

And I can understand all of you disliking that.

But please, PLEASE take my advice and instead of calling the new D&D "not D&D", go play a GOOD simulation/fantasy game and compare it to classic/3.X D&D. Your perception will do you wonders, maybe you will find out D&D wasn't your thing after all.

Don´t you guys think you are over reading? Examine these facts:

-Pathfinder isn´t going to compete 4e at all. You want to play 3.5 with a bunch of new stuff? Go Pathfinder. You want to play something new? Go play 4e. We are talking about two different kinds of people here.
-Pathfinder actually is another name for survival "ranger" in many cultures.
-The "Wrong step" power is actually a pretty cool move which means drawing your foes to a trap and then attacking them. The Pathfinder is a pretty cool paragon path overall.

You guys are so touchy about this that are willing to created a whole kingdom just to make a reference to WOTC, while using an older system from WOTC itself with just a bunch of new stuff tacked over it.

The book is far away from completion so I feel it´s kinda early to tell, but what about new players? Will be Pathfinder be newbie friendly? The art captures new players in my country rather easily but what about the rules? They seems a little more complicated than 3.5.

I want this to be the definitive Asian-based d20 book. I want to win an ENnie award for it, darn it! :D

That´s the spirit! I sure hope that it come out like this. God knows how much I am waiting for a setting like that for d20. Most of my play group dislike L5R rulings and one can run through Rokugan d20 so many times.

Mike McArtor wrote:

That said, I'm a huge anime fan and a relatively big fan of kung-fu and wuxia movies, so you can expect a lot of over-the-top wacky stuff as well. :)

Hey Mikey!

While I know you and Nickie aren't even officially working on this (and Owen wants in?! talk about my favorite hit parade!), I did want to make one polite request.

It falls in the area of knowing what I want, and having no idea how to do it.

If you could make a wuxia fighters *feel different* compared to any other combatant, I would kiss you. The idea of a knight standing side-by-side with a ghost tiger assassin, and their game mechanics working differently enough that at a GAME level people felt they were doing different things, gets me all tingly!

If different fighting styles could also feel different from each other, that would rock an another, higher level.

Just a bug blown in your ear with a soft kiss.

DG

That would be so sweet. Maybe they could base the Wuxia on the Tome of Battle? Nah I would be satisfied with if they managed to make them feel different and unique from the regular Fighter.

Mike McArtor wrote:

I'd say more about the overreactionary nature of fellow Asiaphiles and their insistence on "making everything authentic,"

Yeah, I never quite got that myself. I don't hear nearly as many complaints about medieval Europe and its myths being conveyed in an unauthentic fashion - in fact, I hardly ever hear that.

And it's true. Especially D&D, which takes cultures, creatures, concepts and whatnot from many real-world cultures and epochs and mangles many, and then takes stuff from more contemporary fantasy works (who often did the same, or never were based too much in those old myths) and stirs them in, too.

I'm a European, my continent isn't done properly in D&D, and I couldn't care less. So the basislisk from legend is a snake-like beast? Dark elves are supposed to be a lot like duergar (or even the same)? Trolls are supposed to turn to stone in sunlight? Oh, yes. And I don't lose any sleep over it.

Don't forget that D&D only borrows from history and myths. It does not mirror them. And OA and any Asian supplement should be the same. It will be Asian history and myths mixed with more contemporary fiction, and there will probably be some mix-up of individual nations and all that. It's not done to insult Asia.

This is true. It is also true that some settings, instead of ripping off pop culture, produce something original. Iron Kingdoms and even Eberron in a extend did it very well if you ask me.

And that´s pretty much what I want. I want a "Oriental Adventures" that it is not a mix of just pop culture and a myth here and there, I want something that has it´s roots on the good part of the pop culture and also in the good myths, with loads of original content in the middle.

Of course, that is something very personal.

yoda8myhead wrote:

I tend to find that books you have in your mind are the exact books I want to see printed.

Oh jeez - yeah - me too. I personally loved OA - I thought there were a ton of elements in there that I thought were AMAZING (I loved the ancestral weapons of the samurai, and I thought the Iaijitsu duel method was way sweet.)

The iaijutsu duel was pretty interesting, but might I recomend you to look at the original iaijutsu rules from the Legend of the Five Rings? I think the only problem of the d20 version is that it wasn´t as fatal as the original rulings.

I found your post to be mostly well reasoned and insightful, although I do have a recommendation for you: lose the superiority complex. We'll all get along much better that way. :)

Ouch I came out like that? I am so sorry. English isn´t my first language, looks like I used the wrong expressions.

"Well, as I mentioned above, Nick Logue is slated to work on the book, and he has a degree in Asian studies, lived in China for a while, and is fluent in Mandarin. He and I agree that we need to go back to the roots of Asian history, legend, and myth and build up from there. That said, I'm a huge anime fan and a relatively big fan of kung-fu and wuxia movies, so you can expect a lot of over-the-top wacky stuff as well. :)

I'd say more about the overreactionary nature of fellow Asiaphiles and their insistence on "making everything authentic," but you asked for us to be gentle, and I think I've picked on you enough. ;)

I really do not over react that much(after all, I am a big fan of L5R and the innacuracies in there are pretty big if you actually look for it. But I still love the setting so much)

So Nick Logue has a degree and even lived in China? Phew I feel much relived right now. And I probably wasn´t clear last time, I don´t have any problem with anime or pop culture, it´s just I really wanted a Chinese setting that was based on myths and legends, because it´s something d20 is lacking.

Well first of all this is my first post so be gentle!

In second, I was pretty let down but the second Alpha release of the Pathfinder. Not because of the illustrations, that follow the "Rule of Cool"(as if the whole system as well, albeit less than Fourth edition) but because yet again casters are the main stars while the fighter oriented classes were meat shields, body guards.

But as you can see with my nick, I know a oriental tale or two. About Minkai and the so called "Ninja".

There is two ways of tackling this class "I don´t care about the mystical tales of old and I will just copy the pop cultures references" and the "Ninjas are nothing but spies, you silly bunch!"

Never see someone that tries to actually read some Shinobi no Mono tales and base their class around that. Whioch is a shame since many classes have roots to mistical and old tales in regular D&D. I really wanted to play as something similar of the Fuuma ninja, who in fiction of 1500 was know by having a distinct apperance and some interessting powers, but not as over the top as walking water and summoning giant frogs.

And about Tian Xia, if it is the focus of the book, I will definitly buy it. There isn´t really a "chinese-like" campaign setting for d20 and as descedent of the chinese I kinda felt leftover :p! But anyway what i really wanted to see was classes and even the setting based around the "Romance of the Three Kingdoms", have you designers ever read about this old Chinese epic?

It fantasy at it´s finest, amazing warriors doing awesome feats, strategists defying and even bending the logic, it even has a cult following these days with many western fans(myself inclued)

All in all, I am looking foward to Tian Xia. I just hope it´s not just about monks and ancient myths with a bunch of pop culture references, and it´s actually based on old yet still popular Chinese fantasy.