Mul's page

I treat it like the wild shape ability, 1 hr./level or HD. Change Shape is a special ability that "mimics" other spells (alter self, animal shape, etc.; however, it is not those spells, nor was it intended to be those spells, otherwise it would be shape change, plant shape, etc.

Mul, Bobson is translating the 250 people per lot into the number of lots for each city type. He is correct. Until a lot is "completed" (filled with a building) it is empty of people. This is stated on UCa p212.

Also, lots may not be '1' building but many buildings of the same type. Even a Castle doesn't fill it's lot. A castle and all of its grounds will fill the lot.

To answer some of your questions on what I think they are:
1) In Kingmaker resources are Lair (Cave), Landmark, Resource, and (maybe) Roads.

In the new Kingdom rules what I am using the resource column for anything in the hex that is an economy, stability, or loyalty bonus. This includes: Aqueduct, Fort, Highway, Mine, Quarry, Road, Sawmill, Watchtower, Lair, Landmark, Resource, and River.

Skill column: I use that for the (optional) skill component of the leadership scores.

Government, I think this is just for the second section and does not apply to Economy, Loyalty, and Stability.

2) Near as I can figure they are not used for that section of the table.

3) On GMG p206 it states that Alignment never affects economy (productivity).
On GMG p207 there are government types that do affect economy on a local level. Similarly, on UCa p231 there are national government types that affect Productivity (economy).

Yes, productivity is the old Economy for a settlement. This is stated on page 215 right above the Academy listing.

- Gauss

One question I missed on this, where does it say that houses, buildings, etc. "may not be '1' building, but many of the same type". Page 214 states that Lots is how many lots the building fills. By the use of the word fill, I would take it as fills, meaning uses the area/lot completly.

Mul, Bobson is translating the 250 people per lot into the number of lots for each city type. He is correct. Until a lot is "completed" (filled with a building) it is empty of people. This is stated on UCa p212.

Also, lots may not be '1' building but many buildings of the same type. Even a Castle doesn't fill it's lot. A castle and all of its grounds will fill the lot.

To answer some of your questions on what I think they are:
1) In Kingmaker resources are Lair (Cave), Landmark, Resource, and (maybe) Roads.

In the new Kingdom rules what I am using the resource column for anything in the hex that is an economy, stability, or loyalty bonus. This includes: Aqueduct, Fort, Highway, Mine, Quarry, Road, Sawmill, Watchtower, Lair, Landmark, Resource, and River.

Skill column: I use that for the (optional) skill component of the leadership scores.

Government, I think this is just for the second section and does not apply to Economy, Loyalty, and Stability.

2) Near as I can figure they are not used for that section of the table.

3) On GMG p206 it states that Alignment never affects economy (productivity).
On GMG p207 there are government types that do affect economy on a local level. Similarly, on UCa p231 there are national government types that affect Productivity (economy).

Yes, productivity is the old Economy for a settlement. This is stated on page 215 right above the Academy listing.

- Gauss

Thanks Gauss. Glossery / Index could have been better in this book :-(

Kingdom Sheet

Does anyone have a clue what would grant the bonuses/penalties to:

1. Kingdom Stats: Economy, Loyalty and Stability for Resources, Skill, and Government

2. Settlement Stats: Corruption, Crime, Law, Lore, Productivity and Society for Edicts, Events, Leadership, Resources, Skill, Unrest and Vacancies

3. Settlement Stats: Productivity for Alignment, and Government
Did Productivity become the Economy stat for settlements on the Kingdom sheet?

Seems like there are some holes with the book, and I dislike paying for a hardback that requires I look at errata to fix.

Any thoughts, opinions, or official answers are welcome about these 3 inquiries.

Ooh, good questions.

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Just for comparison's sake, here's the Settlement Size and Base Value chart, translated into Lots:

1-8 lots: Small Town (1000 gp)

9-20 lots: Large Town (2000 gp)

21-40 lots: Small city (4000 gp) 36 lots = 1 district

41-100 lots: Large City (8000 gp) 72 lots = 2 districts

101+ lots: Metropolis (16000 gp) 108 lots = 3 districts

So a single Waterfront takes up 4 lots, and caps out your town until you've reached 41 lots.

An Inn and a Shop together will take 2 lots and cap out your town until you reach 21. At which point you could build the above watefront, or just a market, and either way you'll be capped out again...

On the other hand, Base Value means very little any more.

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I do think that this book is a significant improvement over the original rules, but it feels like they over-corrected in some cases.

I am not sure where you found your 1-8 lots: small town. Population has always been the determining factor for a settlement, small town population of 201-2,000 (pg. 203 PFGMG). 1 district (36 sub lots) would be the the absolute smallest one could honestly imagine for a small town; minimal population (201) and 1 district a small town that had 36 houses (36 sub lots) there would be about, 6 people per house. Best suggestion I can say is base your settlement type off of population and your kingdom off of districts.

On a personal note, I am not a fan of the scale they added for the sub lots, a urban house has a 750 x 750 lot associated to it? City roof jumping just got a lot harder. I am using 100 x 100 sub lots for my scale, which is still huge for a city; about 1/4 acre.

Has anyone else noticed that we have Huge creatures designed as a Large creature; Frost Giant anyone? Any plans to have WizKids get some details as to sizes so they can put things in scale?

I love the mini's over all, just disapointed with the Large/Huge creatures being the same base and height.

I have to say I was pretty disappointed with this one. The production values live up to the usual Paizo standard, but for a Monte Cook adventure, this was a bit of a letdown. Doesn't make me want to run it, doesn't make me want to play it - YMMV. To me, the background story is contrived, the encounters feel tacked on to the 'visuals' and the story hook is a weak one at best. I know my players would not have jumped through hoops to experience this story, and I suspect I am not alone in this.

I'd rate this one 0.5 out of 5, which in my opinion would make it the worst Paizo product to have come out so far. This may sound harsh, but it really does not hold a candle to several other PF modules already published.

Appreciate the feedback, thanks for the insite.

I am also in the Milwaukee area and potentially interested.

My email is ccolliso@hotmail.com please feel free to contact me with questions.

kinda hard to email ya when you dont post an email address....

I ment message me. Sorry for the confusion.

Hey Newbie or Veteran,

If you are interested in a Pathfinder bi-weekly Sunday game and live in the Milwaukee area (or don't mind a drive) I might be looking for you.

First step: email me
Second step: I like to meet up, talk and enjoy a meal together; Who are you? Who am I? Gamer talk(likes, dislikes, rules, etc.).
Third step: We create a character together the Saturday before the next game. I will spend time helping you understand the world, give some back story of what has happened and prepare you for Sundays game.

Mul wrote:

Mul wrote:

Mul wrote:

(Edit- previous format was bad)

8th Level Biped

Str: 27
Dex: 13
Con: 17
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 11

HD(Hp): 6d10+35 (71 hp.)
AC: 21 (touch- 10; ff- 20)
Fort: +8
Ref: +3
Will: +5
Initiative: +5

4 Claws - Attack/Damage: +15, 1d6+8/magic
Rend (chance of 2!) - 1d6+12/magic

Lets also pretend that the Summoner starts off typically with some long duration buffs:

-Mage Armor on he and Eidolon (+4 AC Force/Deflection)
-Protection from Arrows (80/DR*)
These cast still leaves a Summoner with a Cha. of 10, 2 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells (Bulls Str. anyone?) and 2 3rd level spells.

One other thing, this is a NAKED Eidolon, NO Gear at all. 8th level companion style creature; there would be gear.

Also your proposed summoner can't cast spells higher than 0th lvl with a 10 charisma. So no buffs, no Wall of Fire, no spells except cantrips.

Man there are a number of people on these boards that just take things with the wrong context. 10 Cha = no bonus spells which I was talking about number of spells. I am aware of the requirement for Primary stat equal level - 10 to determine what level you can caste. Again it was intended to show NO BONUS SPELLS (2, 2 and 2).

Mul, I would just like to add that Rend does not give you 2 if you hit with all 4 claws. From the beastiary: you can only get rend once per round.

Noted, thanks for the correction. I was reading it as no more then 1 per set of claws; meaning something with 2 claws and 4 attacks could not rend twice, but something with 2 sets of claws (6 limbs; otherwise it would be Rake with rear claws)could still rend with second set of claws. I can see it both ways.

Nice work, I like the special abilities, they are simple to understand and work very well to make this a challenging encounter for a party.

I look forward to seeing more from you in the next round, good luck!

Dude! VERY COOL. Stat blocks looked solid, battlefield goodness to mess with players, special abilities are very cool.

I hope to see your work in the next round, Good luck!

Very cool, and well done! I love the Implant and Smoke Vulnerability.

Good luck on making it to the next round!

Very interesting concept; I like the intelligent construct bit as well as the special abilities.

I am a little lost on the HD for the number of creatures and the size; I would expect more HD or smaller/less of them to stay at the 3HD mark.

Over all I like it and would use it in Osirion, Karapesh or Qadira region.

Mul wrote:

(Edit- previous format was bad)

8th Level Biped

Str: 27
Dex: 13
Con: 17
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 11

HD(Hp): 6d10+35 (71 hp.)
AC: 21 (touch- 10; ff- 20)
Fort: +8
Ref: +3
Will: +5
Initiative: +5

4 Claws - Attack/Damage: +15, 1d6+8/magic
Rend (chance of 2!) - 1d6+12/magic

Lets also pretend that the Summoner starts off typically with some long duration buffs:

-Mage Armor on he and Eidolon (+4 AC Force/Deflection)
-Protection from Arrows (80/DR*)
These cast still leaves a Summoner with a Cha. of 10, 2 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells (Bulls Str. anyone?) and 2 3rd level spells.

One other thing, this is a NAKED Eidolon, NO Gear at all. 8th level companion style creature; there would be gear.

Mul wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

Except that you have no firewall at all. The protection spells do not keep out an eidolon. It offers no protection at all.

And yes.... "due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures."

3rd - Level Summoner Spells : Wall of Fire

Ok we are on the same page now... I missed the wall of fire initially as well.

However said spell isn't all that useful in this case... as a ring it prevents you from aiming through it with arrows... burns them up as they travel through it, and the spell gives cover to both sides at minimum. Basically the party outside can walk away or prep at their leisure.

We got twisted here. Intially I forgot about the circle protection not impacting the Eidolon and my use of the fire wall was for anyone trying to use the circle to stay safe from the Eidolon. Little misunderstanding ;-) Yes, Eidolon nasty and Summoner buffs more nasty.

I got it now, Wall of Fire used offensively with heat focused inside the ring shape. Good use against lower level opponents!

Correct. Don't past through it, stay inside and take 2d4 damage for being within 10' of it and the 2d6+9 is the damage to come out and play or just take a peek ;-)

Except that you have no firewall at all. The protection spells do not keep out an eidolon. It offers no protection at all.

And yes.... "due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures."

3rd - Level Summoner Spells : Wall of Fire

Mul wrote:

Again, stay inside the circle with the nice warm firewall.

Pshaw, one resist energy and that 2d6+caster level is pennies on the dollar. Hell, even without the resist energy....

OK, so party hides in a magic circle from Eidolon and no reist energy as we will again go with party of 5 which would require 5 resist energies and use all 2nd level spells for Cleric 5th if used.

Questions though.
1. How many hitpoints do these 5th level characters have? (2d6+9 * 9 = 108)
2. How are you going to defeat or flee from the Eidolon & Summoner standing in the Magic Circle?
3. Is this a rounded party (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue and x)?

Mul wrote:

(Edit- previous format was bad)

Food for thought on a naughty Eidolon using updated rules(I am with Madcap here):

8th Level Biped

Str: 27
Dex: 13
Con: 17
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 11

HD(Hp): 6d10+35 (71 hp.)
AC: 21 (touch- 10; ff- 20)
BAB: +6
Fort: +8
Ref: +3
Will: +5
Initiative: +5

4 Claws - Attack/Damage: +15, 1d6+8/magic
Rend (chance of 2!) - 1d6+12/magic

Feats: 3 (Improved Init.; Weapon Focus- Nat. Weap - claw; Toughness)
Skills: 24 (max. 6 ranks; perception +9, stealth +6, climb +13, swim +13, acrobatics +6, bluff +6, and sense motive +6)
Evolutions: 11 pts. (1pt. Imp. Nat. Armor- +2, 1pt. Magic Attacks, 2pts. Extra Limbs (arms), 1pt. Claws on Extra Limbs, 4pts. Large, 2pts. Rend)

Test this on a party of 5th level characters and let me know how it goes. Now don't forget to add the invisible buff buddy that comes with him.

Looks like a mediocre monster to me. Probably be dead in 2 rounds against my typical lvl5 group, if it manages to pass its will saves. Not sure it can take my level 3 party.

LOL, a 3rd level group; not a chance. A well built 5th level group would have issues with that with no question.

Unless your 3rd level group is running around with Magic Items out the ass there is no way.

1. 3rd level fighter (3d10 = about 22 hp + 6 from con, dead 2 hits which would hit; rend would seal the deal if damage was rolled poorly)
2. 3rd level rogue (good luck sneaking, and dead in 1 maybe 2 hits)
3. 3rd level caster (wizard, cleric, druid; nothing special at all and the spells that require will saves are nothing at that level)
4. 5th level there are more hp and more spell options which is what gives the 5th level party a chance and fleeing without a entire party kill.

3rd level! LOL. I like you Caineach, you're funny.

Robert Young wrote:

Mul wrote:

10'radius meet 10' reach; not good against large/reach. Also Magic circle is a will save. 3rd Level spell from 5th level caster; DC 15-17. Also stay in the circle a Wall of Fire from the summoner will fix that up real quick.

Nope. It denies physical contact by evil summoned creatures regardless of reach (and they cannot physically enter the radius either). That Will save is for the target (creature touched that receives the protection, i.e. your ally) not the hedged critters.

Doesn't matter anyways:

"...an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures."

similar effects include magic circle of protection against evil. It's the exact same effect actually (even references it in the magic circle's spell description). The eidolon can touch and attack the creatures warded.

Can't really get much more explicit than that.

Again, stay inside the circle with the nice warm firewall.

Robert Young wrote:

Zurai wrote:

Protection from evil doesn't affect an area, it affects a creature. There is no warded area.

He mentioned 3rd level at one point, so may have been referencing Magic Circle. Not sure that works against an eidolon either, though.

It doesn't after all you can't attack someone in a magic circle if you can't reach through a magic circle.

10'radius meet 10' reach; not good against large/reach. Also Magic circle is a will save. 3rd Level spell from 5th level caster; DC 15-17. Also stay in the circle a Wall of Fire from the summoner will fix that up real quick.

(Edit- previous format was bad)

Food for thought on a naughty Eidolon using updated rules(I am with Madcap here):

8th Level Biped

Str: 27
Dex: 13
Con: 17
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 11

HD(Hp): 6d10+35 (71 hp.)
AC: 21 (touch- 10; ff- 20)
BAB: +6
Fort: +8
Ref: +3
Will: +5
Initiative: +5

4 Claws - Attack/Damage: +15, 1d6+8/magic
Rend (chance of 2!) - 1d6+12/magic

Feats: 3 (Improved Init.; Weapon Focus- Nat. Weap - claw; Toughness)
Skills: 24 (max. 6 ranks; perception +9, stealth +6, climb +13, swim +13, acrobatics +6, bluff +6, and sense motive +6)
Evolutions: 11 pts. (1pt. Imp. Nat. Armor- +2, 1pt. Magic Attacks, 2pts. Extra Limbs (arms), 1pt. Claws on Extra Limbs, 4pts. Large, 2pts. Rend)

Test this on a party of 5th level characters and let me know how it goes. Now don't forget to add the invisible buff buddy that comes with him.

Lets also pretend that the Summoner starts off typically with some long duration buffs:

(Edit- previous format was bad)

Food for thought on a naughty Eidolon using updated rules(I am with Madcap here):

8th Level Biped

Str: 27
Dex: 13
Con: 17
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 11

HD(Hp): 6d10+35 (71 hp.)
AC: 21 (touch- 10; ff- 20)
BAB: +6
Fort: +8
Ref: +3
Will: +5
Initiative: +5

4 Claws - Attack/Damage: +15, 1d6+8/magic
Rend (chance of 2!) - 1d6+12/magic

Feats: 3 (Improved Init.; Weapon Focus- Nat. Weap - claw; Toughness)
Skills: 24 (max. 6 ranks; perception +9, stealth +6, climb +13, swim +13, acrobatics +6, bluff +6, and sense motive +6)
Evolutions: 11 pts. (1pt. Imp. Nat. Armor- +2, 1pt. Magic Attacks, 2pts. Extra Limbs (arms), 1pt. Claws on Extra Limbs, 4pts. Large, 2pts. Rend)

Test this on a party of 5th level characters and let me know how it goes. Now don't forget to add the invisible buff buddy that comes with him.

I've been play-testing a summoner in one of my home games, and I think most of the changes to the class are perfect, but I wanted to share my thoughts on the matter, based on testing the class both before and after the recent changes.

1) The changes to the summon monster spell-like abilities are perfect. Absolutely perfect. I wouldn't change a thing. Min./level, standard action, no more than one active at a time is just what the doctor ordered in my opinion. Actually, there's one thing that could maybe change, and I suggested it last time I made this thread: I still think the summoner could stand to have access to summon nature's ally lists through this ability. This is not a deal-breaker in any way, though.

2) I thought the summoner's abilities and the levels at which they're gained were pretty much perfect before, and given that they haven't changed much, I'm still happy. I don't remember if there was a restriction before on ability score increase as an evolution to apply to the summoner with aspect, but I think it makes good sense.

3) Adding maximum number of attack limits to the eidolon is a great idea, and I think reducing the creature's total hit dice at high levels also makes a lot of sense. At high levels, the eidolon previously outshone a lot of parties' fighters, etc., etc. However, I think reducing hit dice from 2 to 1 at first level is a little too harsh. Eidolons don't get maximum hit points at 1st-level, which means they probably have, what? 5, 6hp? The summoner is a really bad caster with a good fighter for a pet. If the summoner is a really bad caster with a really bad, fragile fighter for a pet, he's in pretty bad shape. As it stands, what can the summoner do at first level? Cast shield on himself or his eidolon and just hope nobody gets hit? That extra early HD kept the eidolon (and by extension the summoner) relevant at first level.

4) And then there's the spell list. The summoner was a pretty terrible caster before, and he only got worse with the updates. Before, the eidolon was a...

I agree down the list; the little more spell omf made them very nice and did not seem to be a problem. The Eidolon was a power house couple that with the buffs/spells the way they where, but after the Eidolon corrections these spells and buffs would not be an issue.

As most of the damage will be coming from the Eidolon, and the summoner will provide more of the utility, the Eidolon is going to be engaged in combat and taking damage...effectively adding 1 member to the party to further tax what are usually very strained healing resources.

My suggestion is either add heal spells to summoner spell list or give them an additional SLA that allows them to use heal/cure spells x/day but only on their Eidolon. I think this would reduce the strain on a party's healers while supporting the summoner's utility/Eidolon buffer role.

I really disagree with a number of replies here. Looking at the Summoner we see a support character that fills damage and buffing. This is different then the support characters with healing and buffing (clerics, druids and bards; obviously the flexibility of these classes allows for good damage as well, nothing like a sorcerer, wizard or summoner).

The summoner has a focus of a conjuration wizard/sorcerer with extra "Bam" with the Eidolon. The Eidolon and the summoner already pose a question of game balance as they are VERY powerful together. Also please keep in that there is a life link between the summoner and the Eidolon so the Eidolon can stay in the fight longer. This makes the summoner a very potent addition to a party where little support is needed for the duo. Add powerful Monster Summon abilities laster on which can add large variety of creatures the summoner is very well equipped to be a strong support character, not a healer or anything even close to a healer.

I like the spell selection for the summoner; well balanced for what the class is. The only thing in question is the Eidolon from my point of view; the evolutions do make it very powerful.

nate lange wrote:

Kabump wrote:

Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:

Why are we talking about level 20? How often does the game get to that level? Where is the argument that the summoner is too powerful at 1st level? Or 5th, 7th, etc.? Has anyone crunched these numbers, or, hey, playtested it? I still challenge anyone who says any of the new classes are too powerful (or weak) to take them for a real spin, not a hypothetical one.

+1 Highly specific, theoretical examples does not an overpowered class make.

lol- yeah, that was actually why i started this thread- in mid-levels it seemed like the eidolon got kinda out of control:

@ 7th level it attacks as often as a fighter or barb, can have 32 str and a 3d6 greatsword (+16 from str, +6 power attack) and gets a tentacle (extra d6+7) at the same bonus as the iterative attack; oh, and has reach

@ 11th its strength can be 42 (without any buffs), with a 4d6 greatsword (4d6+33, without a magic sword), it only gets 2 attacks (starting at +30 with power attack and no buffs, enhancement bonus or weapon focus) to a melee class's 3, but it could have upto 3 tentacles which now only take -2 thanks to free multi-attack (3@ +28 for d8+11). granted, it has to stay within 100' of the summoner and, being huge, has problems with some buildings, dungeons, etc. but in playtest straight melee classes got frustrated matching its damage while summoner was free to summon other stuff, cast buffs, knit, etc.

i'd love to hear other real (preferably group) playtest experiences if anyone has em?

I've got one. A Summoner and his Eidolon versus a group of five 5th level PCs, three levels lower than him. According to the CR chart, it's supposed to be a challenging encounter.

To wrap this up this was the old school eidolon. He has four claws with a +17 bonus to hit on each. Each of the claws deals 2d6 damage. He rends if he hits with two on the same target. Finally, he has an electric charge ability that makes all his natural attacks deal an extra 1d6...

I currently play in a group that has a Summoner with a Biped Eidolon. Needless to say I am very thankful he is on our side. We have had a few encounters where the Summoner/Eidolon made the difference between a wipe and staying alive. We are 2-3 level, and the Eidolon is with no question the melee tank and damage dealer. I have not had much time to check the changes to the Summoner; from what I have read they are still very potent.