Mad Muffin's page

Barbs can't rage if they are lawful. Also, bloodrager doesn't have an alignment restriction at all.

You're right, you don't lose other powers and things but rage is gone which I didn't notice. Ultimately I'm not going to try to push house ruling or anything because a Barb/Monk Hydraulic Pusher takes even bigger +BR Hit than the Aasimar did:

(This was when I thought Rage worked as Lawful)
Dwarf(Or Undine) Barb 1 (alignment change to lawful) Quinggon Maneuver Master 7

1 Hydraulic Maneuvers if Undine
(Fast Movement, Rage)
2 monk bonus: Improved Bull Rush
3 Extra Rage
3 monk bonus: Deflect Arrows or Dodge?
5 Extra Ki
(Hydraulic Push instead of Hi Jump at 6th)
7 Monk Bonus: Greater Bull Rush
7 Raging Throw
(True Strike instead of Wholeness of Body at 8)

Magical Knack (Monk) works and offsets the Barb 1 for +1
Trait +1CL Hydraulic Push
20 Wis +5
Headband of Cha +1
Gaunlets of Bullrush +2
Pauldrons of Reroll Bullrushes or BR Belt +2

at 7: +18/+20 if dwarf.

It might be 19/21, I'm not 100% sure here, there are so many variables that affect it to keep track of. I may have also forgotten to add Improved/Greater Bullrush's bonuses when I tallied the Aasimar version as well.

Startling revelation: One must only be nonlawful to take levels of Barbarian. If for some reason you became lawful after the fact, Barbarians unlike Paladins retain all their rage powers and other abilities, you simply cannot continue to progress as a Barbarian. So Barb 1/Qinggong Monk is possible. Going to look into this.

You can also get Hydraulic Push from the Aquatic or Swamp Domain, or as a Qinggong Monk.

"Spells: These ki powers duplicate the effects of a spell, and are spell-like abilities. A qinggong monk’s class level is the caster level for these spell-like abilities, and she uses Wisdom to determine her concentration check bonus."

Monk is super interesting, and has better BAB than a Sorcerer. Its a SLA so it works during rage, but Barbarian has to be Nonlawful and monk be Lawful which prevents easy access to rage. There are other ways to gain rage like wild stalker ranger, rage domain or anger inquisition, viking fighter archtype, but none of those grant the rage class feature at 1st level. Rage spell doesn't grant the rage class feature at all either sadly.

The Martial Artist monk archtype doesn't have to be lawful, however it doesn't look like it stacks with Qinggong, that and Martial Artists have no ki points. Will look further into it.

Undine Bloodrager?

Good point, the advanced class guide. Bloodrage counts as rage for feats. Bloodragers can cast during a rage, and Hydraulic Push is on their spell list.

Recharge Innate Magic is nice considering Undines only get their SLA Push 1/day, are there any other methods to extend its number of uses?

Undine is not a valid choice for Racial Heritage.

You must choose a Humanoid. Undine is a Native Outsider.

So, you could choose Orc, or Stone Giant, but not Undine.

Good to know, Human with Undine didn't seem to have any benefits over just actually being a real actual Undine anyways, and Undine is still not as good as Aasimar as far as I can tell.

And sadly Raging Throw will never work, by fiat of you can't cast spells while Raging, not even Urban Barbarian can do this. Sucks because you could have replaced Fighter with Barbarian in that Aasimar build and have it work if you could.

Hrm unless there was some way to cast Hydraulic Push without needing to concentrate or have patience. Will have to look into wizards, wands, and staff-like wands perhaps.

How about Undine, or Human with racial heritage undine, watersinger bard? If you go undine you can get the Hydraulic Maneuver feat, which is nice.

My first iteration of this was an Undine, but my issue with them was as a sorcerer they don't gain +2 to Cha racially. Water Affinity gives them it, but only if they have elemental (water) bloodline, and that bloodline doesn't give you anything to Hydraulic Push. You could Crossblood them Elemental Water and Aquatic bloodline for the +1 CL [water] aquatic has, but now you miss out on Tattooed's free Mage Tattoo, though I do have some free feat room for that. Crossblooded makes you lose out on many spells as well, but that's less of an issue since we're supposed to be hydraulic focused.

Didn't look at human racial heritages or watersinger bards, will check now.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/raging-throw

Could be interesting...

That is interesting, I'd have to look into ways of gaining the rage feature. The Bab+6 part means its impossible to have till 7th or 9th level at the earliest too, but with the Aasimar, I do have a 7th level slot open and all the prereqs besides rage class feature. Time to see what gives that besides Barb dips.

focus on telekinesis instead. It's more versatile.

Telekinesis is a 5th level spell as opposed to a first level, an entirely different ball-game. I'm not here looking for the best most versatile build, I'm just trying to maximize Hydraulic Push specifically. I wouldn't even have access to Telekinesis in either that build or the one bellow, unless there is some way to obtain it way way earlier?

That being said, after some feedback I've already come up with a better version of what I posted before:

Aasimar Tattooed Aquatic Sorc 1 Fighter 1 Eldritch Knight 5

Traits: Magical Knack, +1CL to Hydraulic Push

Feats
1:Spell Focus Evocation
2fighter bonus: Power Attack
3:Spell Specilization HP (+2)
3eldrich knight: Improved Bullrush
5:?
7:?
7eldritch knight: Greater Bullrush

At 7th level: CL7
Tattooed +1CL Evocation
Aquatic +1CL [water]
Trait +1CL Hydraulic Push
Spell Specialization Hydraulic Push +2CL
21 Cha +5
Headband of Cha +1
Gauntlets of Bullrush +2
Pauldrons of Reroll Bullrushes or BR Belt +2

at 1: +8
at 5: +18
at 7: +20/+22
at 9: +30

Aasimar's Daylight spell-like ability makes them qualify for EK straight from level 3 after the 1 fighter dip to get all martial weapon proficiency.

It comes out to be the same as the Dwarf, but 2 levels earlier at only the cost of 1CL to Hydraulic Push. 20/22 at 7 depending if you buy the Reroll Pauldrons or the flat boost belt, though reroll is likely the better of the two in the long run.

Not sure what to take at 5th and 7th level for feats, probably some metamagics or spell penetration.

That makes sense. I was hasty in posting this because I didn't see any similar results but Looking here into this thread on maximized Dispel Magic has lots of further insight.

You call forth a quick blast of water that knocks over and soaks one creature or square. You can use this blast of water to make a bull rush against any one creature or object. Your CMB for this bull rush is equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest. This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Hydraulic push extinguishes any normal fires on a creature, object, or in a single 5-foot square which it is targeted against. Magical fires are unaffected.

All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.

You roll 1d20+CL+Casting Stat to perform the bullrush. Would Maximize Spell affect the 1d20 and make it auto20? If so, does that mean Empower would bring that up to 30?

It's looking like no as I suspected since its an opposed roll vs. the enemy's CMD, and Maximize doesn't cover opposed rolls.

Preface: What I was doing here is by no means optimal or even all that good an idea for actual play, it was more of a thought experiment / theorycrafting to get the most out of the spell Hydraulic Push.

The key focuses were twofold: Boosting the bullrush's CMB as high as feasably obtainable and obtaining Greater Bull Rush (GBR) as early as possible without significantly reducing your CMB in the process. Pure Sorcerer's BAB progression is so low that you wouldn't quality for GBR until 12th level, so dips and prestige classes are likely necessary.

At this point some may argue 'Why get Greater Bull Rush if it says right in Hydraulic Push that "This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity."' For the sake of this thought experiment, we're going to go with the assumption that RAI it meant that performing a bull rush in this manner doesn't cause you to personally provoke AoOs as it would normally otherwise.

Benchmark points I will be using are 1st, 5th, and 9th level. Why these numbers? 1st level to see its base power, 5th because at the time I was discussing this with some friends, this was the level we considered starting at, and 9th because that was the earliest I could manage to obtain GBR.

Things to consider for this build: Hydraulic Push has no saving throw, so effects that affect the save DC of the spell do not increase its power in any way. The Push is based on Caster Level + Highest main casting stat (Int, Wis, Cha), however ultimately you are performing a bull rush, so effects that grant flat + to Bull Rush attempts should still apply. For this build I put most of my focus into Sorcerer, however Druids, Magus, and Wizards can all too learn Hydraulic Push, so perhaps one of them can do it to even greater effect?

~~~~ Current build: ~~~~

Dwarf Empyreal Sorcerer (I wanted Tattooed Emyreal but the Archtypes sadly don't stack. Empyreal's Arcana makes Wisdom our casting stat, instead of Charisma.)

Relentless Dwarftrait grants +2 to Bull Rush (BR)

20 Point Buy after Racial Adjustment: +2 Wis/Con, -2 Cha

13 / 10 / 11 / 13 / 20 / 6

Charisma tanks, and 13 Str /13 Int are necessary as feat requirements. 20 Wisdom gives us +5 to the BR DC of Hydraulic Push (HP) I wish I could manage higher dex or con, but not much wiggle room here.

Trait-traits I took Magical Knack (Sorcerer) and any of the +1 to a single spells CL (Hydraulic Push) traits. I could take two separate +1 CL to a single spell traits, but I need Knack to offset the multiclassing hit I take later on.

1st Level Feat: Spell Focus (Evocation). This does not in any way help power up HP as it affects spell DC's, however its required for Mage Tattoo and Spell Specialization which will both increase its power.

~~~~ ~~~~

By the end of character creation we have:

Hydraulic Push: 1d20 + CL 1 + 5 Wis + 2 BR + 1CL Trait = 9. Not great, but it's a start.

~~~~ ~~~~

By 5th level, our Wisdom goes up to 21 at 4th. New feats are:

3rd: Spell Specialization (Hydraulic Push) for +2

5th: Mage's Tattoo (Evocation) for +1

Using the recommended gold for a 5th level character (10,500gp), we purchase:

Gauntlets of Skilled Maneuvers (Bullrush) for +2 and a Headband of Inspired Wisdom for +2 to Wis, granting another +1.

At 5th level Hydraulic Push: 1d20 + CL 5 + 6 Wis + 4 BR + 1CL Trait + 1 Tattoo + Specialization 2 = 19.

~~~~ ~~~~

By 9th level here is where it gets murky so I'm not sure we're still pushing the max amount. At 7th level we take a single level of Figther to gain all the martial weapon proficiency required for Eldritch Knight at 8th and 9th. Magical Knack offsets the 2 CL loss that Fighter 1/Knight 1 would hit us with, and the BAB from Fight/Knight lets us qualify for GBR at 9th. I couldn't find any way to get GBR sooner than this without significantly reducing the power of Hydraulic Push.

Fighter Bonus Feat 7th level: Power Attack

7th Level: Lingering Spell Metamagic (Goes nicely with HP, couldn't find any other feats to boost HP's power at this time so its a "free" slot essentially. Perhaps Spell Penetration would be more suitable?)

Eldritch Knight Bonus Feat 8th Level: Improved Bull Rush (+2)

9th: Greater Bull Rush (+2, bull rushes provoke AoO from allies.)

At 8th level we also increase our Wisdom by 1 to gain another +1 to Wis.

New Item Purchases are:
Wisdom Headband +4 for +2

Belt of Thunderous Charging +2 BR

Pauldrons of the Bull Allows you to roll all Bullrush attempts twice and take the better result.

~~~~ ~~~~
Final 9th level Hydraulic Push:

1d20 + CL 9 + 8 Wis + 10 BR + 1CL Trait + 1 Tattoo + Specialization 2 = 31! and two rolls take better result every time.

~~~~ ~~~~

Ultimately you're still a terrible Sorcerer with a bizarre focus, it was just fun to figure out how it could possibly work. I'm sure I made mistakes in both math and finding the best possible choices to do this. Other options I had considered were an Crossblooded Undine Elemental Body [Water] / Aquatic Bloodline seemed promising. At 9th level the Shaitan Bloodline lets you perform bullrushes any time one of your spells damages an enemy which could be worth looking into as well. People have also reccomended to me a Wizard with a staff-like wand of Hydraulic Pushes, which I hadn't considered.

I know this is a huge wall of text but I wanted to show my work, and if anyone can see anything that could improve this, I'm wide open to critique and would super appreciate it. I hope this is the right place too.

I don't know how you're getting an attack as a free action. I don't think that's possible. I believe the throwing shields (admittedly bad) wording just means you can get it ready to throw as a free action (rather than having to take a move action to get it off your arm)

From the two of them:

Shield, Throwing: "Benefit: You can throw the shield as a free action. Neither a shield’s enhancement bonus to AC nor its shield spikes apply to your attack or damage rolls."

Throwing Shield: "Benefit: This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action. Tower shields cannot be throwing shields. Neither a shield’s enhancement bonus to AC nor its shield spikes apply on your attack or damage rolls."

It does seem weird but they both say "throw it as a free action." "throw the shield as a free action." If they wanted throwing it to be a standard action, wouldn't it say standard not free?

It would kind of help to know what is giving you the free action attack.

Throwing the Throwing Shield is a free action:

"Benefit: You can throw the shield as a free action." from the d20pfsrd on the throwing shield modification for shields, and on the page for the weapon Shield, Throwing.

"This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action. "

I'm not using two weapon fighting is the thing, but I can't figure out if throwing the shield counts as an attack or something else or not that it would incur penalties.

I want what you think to be right though, that it doesn't take the penalty.

I have a dilemma I am not sure how to work out.

In my main hand I have a longsword one-handed, in the offhand I have a heavy throwing shield.

Throwing shields can be any shield with a mod thing on it and can be thrown as a free action to damage or trip someone. After I've thrown the shield, as a free action I grip my longsword, move closer to my target, and with both hands and then attack with a standard action.

My question is, does the Longsword and Throwing Shield count as two weapon fighting, so when I throw the shield, do I get -10 to hit without two-weapon fighting feats? And after the shield is thrown, do I still get -6 to attack with the longsword like I was fighting two-weapons, even though I'm not carrying the shield anymore?

Is throwing a shield as a free action also an attack? What if I use it to trip someone instead of doing damage?

Two Weapon Fighting says: "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon." A shield doesn't grant extra attacks per round, so does it still take the same penalties a weapon would?

If anyone knows, thanks.

Leveling up is the only thing that comes to mind. Where did you get a Huge weapon?

No where at the moment, I was just thinking about this. In-game if I did do this I'd probably have it forged extra special at higher cost by a blacksmith or something.

And yeah Robert, Lighten Weapon is from the Alchemist book.

Hey, I am just toying around with some silly ideas that probably won't work out in any practical play, but I just wanted to make sure I was adding this up right, or if anyone knew any alternatives that could make this work better.

Lighten Weapon lets you reduce a weapon's size for use by one grip, like a Large two-handed weapon would become usable by a medium creature again, but at a -2 to hit penalty. That -2 to hit stacks with the fact that large weapons weren't made for medium creatures right? For a total of -4.

There is an Improved Lighten Weapon, which removes Lighten Weapon's -2, which still sits you at -2 in the end.

My question is, if you surpass Large and go Straight to Huge, you'd be going up two sizes so you'd have to use an originally one-handed weapon, now a Huge one-handed weapon you can only use with two hands with the help of Lighten Weapon. But because its huge and two-sizes out of your size category, its -4 to hit at best with Improved.

So a 1d8 one-handed weapon would become 3d6 at Huge size, but it still has -4 to hit, which is not very good or practical. There's no other way to reduce the negative to hit to make it somewhat more practical is there?