It's pretty much the strongest non-core class,
Optimization wise you only need the Attack of Opportunity and the Weighty Impact leaving you pretty free to pick anything else with the other 8 feat slots.
They are cool, not my type of flavor though and I have a few problems with them. Thaumaturge I have problems with the hand economy, specially with the passive ones and the balance between implements is not really something to write home about, exist Tome that gives great skill flexibility the intensify of it is great and you don't even have to hold it for the best part of it... then lantern exist in the other axis, basically the Rogue lvl 1 feat, could at least make the light of it only be visible to you or something like that so at least you could do some unique shenanigans. Psychic is mainly the "unamped" form of the spells with like 3 exceptions, as they are not good without the focus point.
What elemental stuff you think that the class should have? We have sending creatures into the air with flinging updraft, surf around the field with water dance, create a stone construct and have a jet move on fire, so what other unconventional or non-direct damage impulses you would like? A few of mine: - A fire reaction to put a barrier of fire around you, kinda like the water one but fire, hurting the attacker. - Still on fire reaction, a smoke reaction making you concealed or hidden from the triggering attack. - A hole earth impulse, where the heck are my holes or fissures?
They will definitely need some more incentive for going mono element with that spread. Dedicated gates could have like a die size higher in their blasts, so Water/Earth d10, Fire d8 and Air d6, kinda like a Barbarian with like giant Instinct, but instead of clumsy you are being limited to a single element.
It ends up being. Air, horrible blast but actually good impulses, the flinging updraft and fly impulses are great. Earth, good blast but meh early impulses, the best thing here is the overpowered 2 action wall of stone. Fire, decent blast, also meh early impulses, horrid ignition is pretty great however. Water, good blast, decent impulses and really good auras, get control as early as lvl 6 with wall of water (very easy to put in a way that an enemy have to stride + swim + stride to reach to you), the lvl 18 moon impulse have an amazing name but it does suck though.
If a summoner keeps their big ass Eidolon out to avoid the 3 actions to manifest it, I can't see why not you can't have your arm on fire.
Book of the Dead was divine based and a big book.
I mean, the same could be said about Thaumaturge having a familiar, it's just a thematic thing for the class to have.
Right, but that is why the action cost of overflows is so high. A 2+1 action unstable would not only be stronger than a 3+1, but would lead to reptitive turns. For both classes you want to pick the moment to use your big boom because you can't just do it again next round. Yeah pretty much, if you use ubstable on Searing Restoration, you can't use on megavolt later, if you use on megavolt can't use on explosive leap and so on. Limits even how players will select the feats as you don't want too many unstable to compete with one another for your single unstable use.
HP as a resource in RPGs only work if healing is hard and have to be overly cautious with it. In PF2 where you blink and is at full HP does not really work.
My players and I have been creating characters for the one-shot sessions that we are making (we already played a lvl 3 one even), and one of the common complaints was that they didn't had enough feats to pick many impulses. The one that made an Universal Gate lvl 8 said that didn't really feel universal when he basically only had one impulse of each element and when they add the wood and metal he will be even be missing one or two at that point. A few more free impulses is what a few of them said that would help a lot. I asked what else would help, and they said that maybe a lvl 1 feature or feat that is an impulse in area that just take the element damage of what you have gathered would at least be something to help.
People ask for that in every playtest, like the Summoner, Magus and Inventor one.
Depends on lvl actually, 10 or lower creatures of lvl +3/4 are scary, but after lvl 10 what I fear more is actually encounter with multiple creatures, as it's very easy to control the higher lvl ones.
I think that the class to compare would be actually Inventor. Have AoE options on unstable like Explosion and Megavolt, though those are basically once per battle. The main stat is not an attack one, though Con main start is miles better than intelligence or charisma as it's a save stat. So basically what is missing is some kinda of overdrive to increase damage of Kineticist strikes.
Might be way too similar to psychic mechanically, but like, making and balancing the impulses around being without overflow by default but you can choose to overflow to "amp" it for a greater effect. Could even apply to the default Elemental Blast per example where it turns into a "Power Attack".
Yeah, when playing it really feels like you want to combine to the default Elemental blast with the other impulses, I think that just giving or making something that makes combining them feel and flow more naturally would help a lot.
I'm really starting to think replacing overflow with just a limited times per day in some fashion is the way to go here more power with largely no drawback given how people often play.If you want at will abilities, they're going to be balanced as at will abilities. Something has to give. Do you want to get rid of at will abilities or do you want to accept low damage?an ability has to be worth using in the first place no matter how many times you can use it, the average combat will give you 9-15 actions, using 3 of those actions to do negligable damage is not a worthwile use of anyones time unless you have a ton of enemies crammed together Yeah at this point it would be better to give a resource like focus points and make that it can refocus more from the start.
I did test in the first day in a lvl 3 one-shot, it does indeed feel better, played a dedicated water one. Being able to do blast + tidal hands and next turn gather + blast twice was fine, and later that build could have 2 actions blasts to out in there like the one that strikes 5 creatures. I even managed water dance allies out of enemies range too and that was a cool as heck utility in battle Gather element could have a small bonus on it depending of the element like a small circumstance bonus to AC if earth and so on, but it was not as bad as I thought would be. Power wise impulses could indeed use a boost, but should be better than a cantrip but worse than inventor unstable actions per example.
Celestial Palisade 3 actions Overflow (Wall of wind) Lvl 8, so 3 lvls after casters have access to it Rock Rampart 2 actions (Wall of Stone) Lvl 12, so 3 lvls after casters have access to it... but why the heck it's less actions and no overflow? That does not look very fair, it's already the best wall, make it 3 actions and overflow as well. Architect of Flame 3 actions Overflow (Wall of fire) Lvl 12, 5 lvls after casters have access to it... so it should have been lvl 10 to keep with the 3 lvls pattern. Barrier of Boreal Frost 3 actions Overflow (Wall of Ice) Lvl 14, 5 lvls after casters have access to it... so it should have been lvl 12 to keep with the 3 lvls pattern.
Interesting enough Universal Gate names the four elements instead of saying ALL or something similar, makes me wonder if it will exclude wood and metal and make it exclusive to dual and dedicated.
While I think that everyone can agree that it needs damage, nobody really agrees with how much (and it's not really our job, that is the designers to figure). My balance point per example would be a class feature increasing damage that uses Constitution in some way for the blast and have the impulses be somewhat weaker than unstable actions (as they are once per battle while impulses don't have limit).
The class to compare this one is Inventor actually, as it's a somewhat similar chassis. So Kineticist would need a damage booster like Overdrive on the blasts. Unstable is core to the inventor but only once per battle effectively, so impulses would need to be weaker than them as they are infinite uses. To make Gather Element feel less action taxy could have a bonus in the turn that you use it depending of the element, like Fire doing more damage, earth gaining a bonus in AC and so on.
You can gather outside of battle as well, it's basically a weapon that you have draw it before battle.
Yeah I am putting Burn on the table, someone had to. I like the impulses, their powers are good for being at will options, but we really could use a resource mechanic to give them a little more spice like an amp, be it focus points, burn, oracle like curse or whatever.
The other write up that was made today.
Thanks for making the write ups, they are really helpful.
The book was said to be similar and in the same nature as the Book of the Dead. For the other non-Kineticist new options I would guess: - Elemental Instinct Barbarian
Credits to The-Magic-Sword for making the write up.
Well then that failed, as Magus now will go after Psychic for either Ray of Frost if they want right at lvl 2 or Imaginary Weapon if they can wait to lvl 6. And a lot of casting classes can pick it as easily as well and sometimes uses the cantrips even better than the class itself.
One of the best designed class in my opinion, it's simple to understand and the class main mechanic being just 1 action equal 2 strikes with Flurry of Blows makes their action economy pretty free for you to do a lot of things in the game. Get in, Flurry of Blows then Quick Jump somewhere safe. Archetype? Ops also have the action economy free to do the archetype actions like Marshal Auras and so on. It just feel... so free, no tight action economy like Magus or Thaumaturge.
My main problem is usually with Distant Grasp, you only see damage increase on amped Telekinetic Projectile when you are level 3, Telekinetic Rend starts the same damage as an electric arc but scales slower, mage hand actually has a niche. Vector Screen is like wall of wind, cool and effective in rare situations. Then we have spiritual weapon that don't gain benefit from unleash. Silent Whisper is probably the most solid, message is good and shatter mind is the best AoE option o psychic. Infinite Eye is right after with the rest lagging way behind.
Being honest? I don't dig it. The feats are horrible with like 3 of them being decent (Scroll thaumaturge, Cursed Effigy and the extra reaction). The power of the implements are really imbalanced against one and another, on one side we have tome that is strong and then in another stuff like lantern. Passive implements if leave the hand then good luck holding it again.
If you mean like with a weapon, summoner itself will be dealing with caster weapon proficiencies, so no way to reach a martial scaling. Defensively summoner does pretty well as it's a 10HP class and you could give it like armor with Sentinel or so on. You could choose short range spells like touch or cones to take advantage of being in melee or if you are Occult pick psychic MC and go after imaginary weapon. Otherwise Beastmaster with a martial class might also work.
It's mostly to fine control the curse lvl, sometimes you are on a very hard battle as a battle Oracle and don't want to go to major curse and become stupefied as you might need to heal someone but still have focus points unused.
I've learned the hard way that the days of the Oradin are long overTangent: ** spoiler omitted ** Oracle with Champion MC is pretty good, the Champion reaction is godly, can pick non cursebound focus spell that uses charisma and are divine so scales with your natural spellcasting and Heavy armor
Being honest, Thaumaturge MC sucks, the feats of the class are bad so you basically only go there for an implement. From the implements, wand and bell needs Thaumaturge DC so those are out, Tome and Regalia wants the advanced benefits that you don't get. Amulet and Chalice are fine but Champion is capable of giving both and better, so if you want mirror, lantern or weapon it might work.
- Psychic with Bastion archetype, as the quick block extra reaction do work with it and the reactive block is also nice to protect yourself. Also learn the Dancing Shield spell for more shield shenanigans. - Not really psychic, but as metamagic don't work with amps you could go Aberrant Sorcerer and pick imaginary weapon and use it with the Tentacular Limbs, if you are a gnome you can tentacular limbs + 2 imaginary weapons on two different encounters and hit 2 enemies with 2d8/spell lvl. If you are using oscillating wave and plan on using the wheel, blistering invective to generate notes is pretty nice.
A damage table because I was bored.
Interesting enough Aberrant Sorcerer however can use the imaginary weapon at distance if you really want it, Psychic don't want to pick the tentacles as it ruins their refocus though.
There's still a problem with that skill: a target that is immune to death effects would rather critical fail the fortitude roll (resulting in no effect) than pass it (resulting in it fleeing). It doesn't make much sense.
Even with the nerf Nimble Animal companions ends with 42AC that is the same as caster full of runes at lvl 20 instead of 44, effectively it will have the same AC as a martial until lvl 19 that is when those get master in armor. It also avoids the weird thing that Animal Companions had higher AC than players on mid game.
Primal only kineticist walls off a lot of their weirder options from PF1 and I'd be really disappointed to see it go in that direction. So I hope there's at least some flexibility there Yeah primal pretty much covers everything, and even the aether/force could be put there as is not unheard of classes cheating their way into stuff that their tradition don't have (druid being able to pick some illusion goods, storm oracle getting air/water focus spells, fey summoner getting some schools of arcane and so on).
And now he is a more obedient dog lol.
I recommend using the Pathbuilder to help. But here a build to help. I think that a simple one would one better. But damn that is a hard class to play for someone new to the system, but here we go. First the ABCs Ancestry - Human with Versatile Heritage (Toughness Class Feat) and General Training Ancestry Feat (Incredible Initiative) 2 Free boosts - Let's put one in STR and another into INT Background - Academy Dropout - Let's put the boosts again into STR and INT, then you gain Adademia Lore and trained in Arcana plus the Dubious Knowledge Skill Feat. Class - Magus - We put the boost into STR, and we will choose Laughing Shadow Hybrid Study, you gain the Dimensional Assault Focus spells, the spellstrike, Arcane Cascade and the proficiencies that the class gives, as you already gained Arcana in the background we can choose another skill here, so Athletics here we go. Then we gain 4 free boost to put anywhere, let's pick STR, DEX, INT and CON, putting the initial stats as 18STR/12DEX/12CON/16INT/10WIS/10CHA. Then as a Magus have 2 + INT more skills , as the INT is +3 so 5 skills, let's choose Society, Stealth, Diplomacy, Crafting and Occultism. You also start with a spellbook with 8 cantrips and 4 lvl 1 spells, so let's choose Gouging Claw, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost, Shield, Light, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand and Ghost Sound for cantrips and Shocking Grasp, Hydraulic Push, Grease and Fear for 1st lvl spells. Now we go to the second level, that we will choose Force Fang Class Feat and Titan Wrestler Skill Feat. And gravitational pull + Illusory object as spells. Then 3rd lvl picking Fleet General Feat and increasing the Athletics as skill Increase. Scorching Ray and Invisibility as spells. Then 4th lvl, I am personally a fanof Striker's scroll... but I think that might be simpler to pick Spell Parry. Quick Jump as skill feat. Blood Vendetta and Acid Arrow as spells. 5th lvl increase STR, CON, INT and WIS, and pick Clever Improviser for ancestry feat. Time Jump and Fireball as spells. For equipment... 4th lvl- +1 Striking Longsword or Warhammer
I dislike it so I don't use it, IF I would use then would be like SoT that is limited archetype based on the theme of the campaign.
Even have a sidebar, and the text above the archetype to explain some stuff.
A player of mine in an one shot like to use it with Jump, had a Staff with the spell on it, was Laughing Shadow using bite attacks, so Jump + Cascade + Strike was pretty common and had like 5 Jumps at that lvl from the staff.
Quality of the slots matter though, yes it have 8, but most of them are lower lvl than the bounded ones.
Invisibility is not really a problem, wands and scrolls to solve that is cheap as heck at high lvls. Even have a normal item, dust of appearance, that also solves that.
So the question is why the APG one is not there then
Let's see... Psychic: Will keep the number of slots, will not break the focus spell limit if 3 anymore so can have stronger amps and unsleash will change to be some form of "rage" giving benefits when you use it. Thaumaturge: Around the same as the playtest but find flaws will not be connected to recall anymore. Sounds cool on paper, let's see how it will turn out in a year. |
