Justpassingthrough's page

Has anyone had any experience with creating a class for pathfinder 2e?

I have been wanting to create a custom class for pathfinder 2e for a while now, but the process is a daunting one, both from a design and a game balance standpoint.

So does anyone have any advice as to what I should do/not do when attempting this? For those of you who have created a class for pf 2e is there anything that you wish you would have known/ done differently before you started on the process?

For reference, my idea is to make a dragon based ancestry/class combination like was done by several third party companies for pf 1e. I already have a draft for the ancestry, but the class part is a far more daunting task.

I am starting this out with a huge shout out to both Bandw2 (on the Paizo forms) and u/fanatic66 (on Reddit). Both of there ideas have been instrumental as baselines for this work (Bandw2 for his original draft of dragon ancestry and archetype, and u/fanatic66 for his fantastic dragonborn ancestry, now on its 8th draft), and some of the abilities that I have here have been drawn directly from their work. With that done, I would like to welcome everybody to comment and critique my first draft of a true dragon ancestry.

Dragon Base Stats
Traits: Dragon, rare
Hit Points: 8
Size: Medium
Speed: 25 feet
Ability Boosts: Free, Free
Ability Flaw: Any
Languages: Common and Draconic. Additional languages equal to your Intelligence modifier (if it is positive). Choose from the list of common languages and any other languages to which you have access (such as the languages prevalent in your region).
Darkvision: You can see in darkness and dim light just as well as you can see in bright light, though your vision in darkness is in black and white.
Sleep Susceptibility: Although you have the dragon type, you are not immune to sleep effects.
Paralysis Susceptibility: Although you have the dragon type, you are not immune to the paralyzed condition.
Draconic Form: You are quadrupedal, although your foreclaws are dexterous enough that you can hold and manipulate objects as well as a humanoid hand can. You can wield weapons and hold items in your foreclaws, however you take a -10 foot penalty to your land speed while doing so.
Dragon Fangs: You have a jaws unarmed attack that deals 1d8 piercing damage, your jaws are in the brawling group and have the unarmed trait.
Draconic Element: Choose a damage type from the following list, acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic. Whenever an ability refers to your dragon damage type, you use the corresponding damage type.

Dragon Heritages
You select a heritage at 1st level from the list of options below. You can only have 1 heritage and you cannot change it later. Despite their numerous classifications, all dragons share a bond with one of the fundamental traditions of magic which powers their abilities. Your choice of heritage determines what your magical tradition is.

Arcane
You use the arcane tradition for the purposes of any spells and abilities you gain from dragon ancestry feats and archetypes. Choose one cantrip from the arcane spell list. You can cast this spell as a arcane innate spell at will. A cantrip is heightened to a spell level equal to half your level rounded up. You can change this cantrip to a different one on the arcane spell list once per day by meditating and stoking your inner power, this is a 10-minute activity that has the concentration trait. You gain the trained proficiency rank in arcane spell attack rolls and spell DC’s. You can choose your key spellcasting ability from amongst your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, once made this decision cannot be changed.

Divine
You use the divine tradition for the purposes of any spells and abilities you gain from dragon ancestry feats and archetypes. Choose one cantrip from the divine spell list. You can cast this spell as a divine innate spell at will. A cantrip is heightened to a spell level equal to half your level rounded up. You can change this cantrip to a different one on the divine spell list once per day by meditating and stoking your inner power, this is a 10-minute activity that has the concentration trait. You gain the trained proficiency rank in divine spell attack rolls and spell DC’s. You can choose your key spellcasting ability from amongst your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, once made this decision cannot be changed.

Occult
You use the occult tradition for the purposes of any spells and abilities you gain from dragon ancestry feats and archetypes. Choose one cantrip from the occult spell list. You can cast this spell as a occult innate spell at will. A cantrip is heightened to a spell level equal to half your level rounded up. You can change this cantrip to a different one on the occult spell list once per day by meditating and stoking your inner power, this is a 10-minute activity that has the concentration trait. You gain the trained proficiency rank in occult spell attack rolls and spell DC’s. You can choose your key spellcasting ability from amongst your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, once made this decision cannot be changed.

Primal
You use the primal tradition for the purposes of any spells and abilities you gain from dragon ancestry feats and archetypes. Choose one cantrip from the primal spell list. You can cast this spell as a primal innate spell at will. A cantrip is heightened to a spell level equal to half your level rounded up. You can change this cantrip to a different one on the primal spell list once per day by meditating and stoking your inner power, this is a 10-minute activity that has the concentration trait. You gain the trained proficiency rank in primal spell attack rolls and spell DC’s. You can choose your key spellcasting ability from amongst your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, once made this decision cannot be changed.

Dragon Ancestry Feats
At 1st level, you gain one ancestry feat, and you gain an additional ancestry feat every 4 levels thereafter (at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels). As a dragon, you select from among the following ancestry feats.

1st level

Ancestral Longevity
[dragon]
Prerequisites: You are at least 100 years old
Benefit: You have accumulated a vast array of lived knowledge over the years. During your daily preparations, you can reflect upon your life experiences to gain the trained proficiency
rank in one skill of your choice. This proficiency lasts until you prepare again. Since this proficiency is temporary, you can’t use it as a prerequisite for a skill increase or a permanent character option like a feat.

Dragon Breath [two actions]
[dragon, evocation]
Benefit: You channel your power into a gout of energy that manifests as a 30-foot line or 15-foot cone (your choice when you use this ability), dealing 1d4 damage of your draconic element type. Each creature in the area must attempt a basic reflex saving throw against the higher of your class DC or spell DC. You can’t use this ability again for 1d4 rounds.

At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, the damage dealt by your breath increases by 1d4. This ability has the trait associated with the damage type that it deals, as well as the tradition trait matching your heritage.

Dragon Lore
[dragon]
Benefit: You learned much about the ways of dragons, either from other dragons or on your own surviving where others could not. You gain the trained proficiency in survival and a skill based upon your heritage (arcane gains Arcana, divine gain Religion, occult gains Occultism, and primal gain Nature). If you would automatically become trained in one of those skills (from your background or class, for example), you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You also become trained in Dragon Lore.

Draconic Resilience
[dragon]
Benefit: You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to saves against sleep effects and effects that would make you paralyzed.

Draconic Weaponry
[dragon]
Benefit: Choose one of the following options.
You gain a claw unarmed attack that deals 1d4 slashing damage and has the agile and finesse traits.
You gain a tail unarmed attack that deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage and has the sweep trait.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times, but you must select a different option each time.

Elemental Affinity
[dragon]
Benefit: You gain resistance to your draconic element type equal to half your level (minimum 1).

Hoard Collector
[dragon]
Benefit: You have a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks to notice precious metals. If you aren’t using the Seek action or searching, the GM automatically rolls a secret check for you to notice hidden treasure anyway. This check doesn’t gain the circumstance bonus.

5th level

Ageless Patience
[dragon]
Benefit: You work at a pace born from longevity that enhances your thoroughness. You can voluntarily spend twice as much time as normal on a Perception check or skill check to gain a +2 circumstance bonus to that check. You also don’t treat a natural 1 as worse than usual on these checks; you get a critical failure only if your result is 10 lower than the DC. For example, you could get these benefits if you spent 2 actions to Seek, which normally takes 1 action. You can get these benefits during exploration by taking twice as long exploring as normal, or in downtime by spending twice as much downtime.

The GM might determine a situation doesn’t grant you a benefit if a delay would be directly counterproductive to your success, such as a tense negotiation with an impatient creature.

Draconic Movement
[dragon]
Benefit: Choose one of the following options
You gain a 10-foot swim speed.
You gain a 10-foot burrow speed.
You gain a 10-foot climb speed.
You increase one of the above speeds by 10-feet.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times, but you must select a different option each time.

Draconic Senses
[dragon]
Benefit: You gain imprecise scent with a range of 30 feet.

Dragon Scale Armor
[dragon]
Benefit: Your scales themselves can stop the piercing of arrows and the slashing of swords. When you are unarmored, your scales give you a +4 status bonus to AC with a Dexterity cap of +0.

Energized Font [one action]
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Focus pool. Your dragon heritage shares a tradition with at least one of your focus spells.
Frequency: Once per day
Benefit: The magic within you provides increased energy you can use to focus. You regain 1 Focus Point, up to your usual maximum.

Humanoid Shape
[dragon]
Benefit: You can cast humanoid form as an innate spell at will. The spells tradition changes to match your dragon ancestry tradition, and the spells duration is permanent until dismissed.

Natural Weapon Expertise
[dragon]
Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with a bite or an unarmed attack you gained from a dragon ancestry feat, you apply the brawling critical specialization effect.

9th level

Arcane Hide
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Draconic Resilience
Benefit: You gain a +1 status bonus to saves against magical effects.

Draconic Pride [free action]
[dragon]
Frequency: Once per day
Trigger: You attempt a check using a skill you are trained in.
Benefit: Your prideful nature pushes you to impress others with your talents. Gain a +4 circumstance bonus to the triggering skill check.

Expert Longevity
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Ancestral Longevity
Benefit: You’ve continued to refine the knowledge and skills you’ve gained through your life. When you choose a skill in which to become trained with Ancestral Longevity, you can also choose a skill in which you are already trained and become an expert in that skill. This lasts until your Ancestral Longevity expires.

When the effects of Ancestral Longevity and Expert Longevity expire, you can retrain one of your skill increases. The skill increase you gain from this retraining must either make you trained in the skill you chose with Ancestral Longevity or make you an expert in the skill you chose with Expert Longevity.

Fury of Dragons [reaction]
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Access to the cast a spell activity
Trigger: A creature critically succeeds on a saving throw against a spell you cast with an energy type matching your draconic element
Benefit: Your affinity to your element lets you bend magic. The enemy treats their critical success as a success.

Improved Dragon Breath
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Dragon Breath
Benefit: When you use dragon breath, you can increase the damage dice to d8s and increase the area to 60 feet for a line breath weapon or 30 feet for a cone. If you do so, you can’t use dragon breath again for 1 hour.

Partial Flight
[dragon]
Benefit: You gain a fly speed equal to your land speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater. You can only fly for up to 5 minutes each day, and each round in which you use your fly speed takes up 1 round of this duration. If you are still flying when you run out of minutes, you float to the ground as if under the effect of a feather fall spell.

13th level

Elemental Mastery
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Elemental Affinity
Benefit: Your resistance from elemental affinity increases to 5 + half your level, and you can cast 4th-level heightened resist element as an innate spell once per day. The spell only grants resistance to your draconic element energy type, but you can target up to three creatures. The magical tradition for the spell is the same as your heritage tradition.

Frightful Roar [two actions]
[auditory, dragon, emotion, fear, mental]
Frequency: Once per hour
Benefit: You attempt Intimidate checks to demoralize each enemy within 30 feet.

Inspiring Roar [one action]
[auditory, dragon]
Frequency: Once per hour
Benefit: You let out a triumphant roar that pushes your allies to fight harder. You and all allies in a 30-foot emanation gain a +1 status bonus to checks, saving throws, and armor class until the end of your next turn.

Universal Longevity [one action]
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Expert Longevity
Frequency: Once per day
Benefit: You’ve perfected your ability to keep up with all the skills you’ve learned over your long life, so you’re almost never truly untrained at a skill. You reflect on your life experiences, changing the skills you selected with Ancestral Longevity and Expert Longevity.

17th level

True Flight
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Partial Flight
Benefit: The amount of time you can fly each day increases to 24 hours, in effect granting you permanent flight.

So here is the version of automatic bonus progression that i use in my games.

Level Bonuses Gained
1st —
2nd —
3rd Resistance +1
4th Armor attunement +1, weapon attunement +1
5th Defense +1
6th Mental prowess +2 or physical prowess +2
7th Physical prowess +2 or mental prowess +2
8th Resistance +2, defense +2
9th Armor attunement +2, weapon attunement +2
10th Defense +3, resistance +3
11th Mental prowess +4 or physical prowess +4
12th Physical prowess +4 or mental prowess +4
13th Mental prowess +4/+2, physical prowess +4/+2, resistance +4, defense +4
14th Armor attunement +3, resistance +5, weapon attunement +3
15th Armor attunement +4, mental prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4 or physical prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4, weapon attunement +4
16th Defense +6, physical prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4 or mental prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4
17th Armor attunement +5, defense +8, mental prowess +6/+2/+2 or +4/+4/+2, physical prowess +6/+2/+2 or +4/+4/+2, weapon attunement +5
18th Defense +10, mental prowess +6/+4/+2 or +4/+4/+4, physical prowess +6/+4/+2 or +4/+4/+4,
19th Mental prowess +6/+6/+6 or physical prowess +6/+6/+6
20th Mental prowess +6/+6/+6 or physical prowess +6/+6/+6

POWERFUL CAMPAIGN
1st Resistance +1
2nd Armor attunement +1, weapon attunement +1
3rd Defense +1
4th Mental prowess +2 or physical prowess +2
5th Physical prowess +2 or mental prowess +2
6th Resistance +2, defense +2
7th Armor attunement +2, weapon attunement +2
8th Defense +3, resistance +3
9th Mental prowess +4 or physical prowess +4
10th Physical prowess +4 or mental prowess +4
11th Mental prowess +4/+2, physical prowess +4/+2, resistance +4, defense +4
12th Armor attunement +3, resistance +5, weapon attunement +3
13th Armor attunement +4, mental prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4 or physical prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4, weapon attunement +4
14th Defense +6, physical prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4 or mental prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4
15th Armor attunement +5, defense +8, mental prowess +6/+2/+2 or +4/+4/+2, physical prowess +6/+2/+2 or +4/+4/+2, weapon attunement +5
16th Defense +10, mental prowess +6/+4/+2 or +4/+4/+4, physical prowess +6/+4/+2 or +4/+4/+4
17th Mental prowess +6/+6/+6 or physical prowess +6/+6/+6
18th Mental prowess +6/+6/+6 or physical prowess +6/+6/+6
19th Inherent bonuses +5/+5/+5
20th Inherent bonuses +5/+5/+5

-Mythic characters are treated as being a number of levels higher than their character level for the purposes of these bonuses equal to ½ their tier (rounded down)
-Weapon attunement now applies to all weapons (including natural weapons and unarmed strikes) that the character has.
-Armor attunement now applies to all armor and shields (including ordinary clothing or its equivalent) that the character has.
-Defense is the combined value of deflection and enhancement natural bonus to armor class. Neither bonus can be more than +5 (This replaces the normal combination of ring of protection and amulet of natural armor, and allows for greater flexibility)
-When wielding a magic weapon or wearing magic armor you do not subtract the bonus of any abilities that it has from your attunement value (A 20th level character who picked up a vorpal sword would still be able to have their +5 to attack and damage from weapon attunement)

Out of the long history of fantastic and evocative 3rd party products created for the first edition of pathfinder, one of my favorites has to be In The Company of Dragons Expanded by Rite Publishing (with several other companies providing their own cool little sections to the book). For those of you who do not know, it was basically a mix of a campaign setting and a well-developed rules set for playing dragons. You could either go the path of the dragon exemplar (the racial class) or you could play as a member of a normal class but with an archetype that would (when combined with certain feats) largely give you the feeling and abilities of playing a dragon while still maintaining much of your class abilities.

While a fantastic product, In The Company Of Dragons also suffered from several issues rooted within the pathfinder 1e system itself. Chief amongst these was that the size penalties for getting larger would eventually outstrip the bonuses that were gain from your growth. Moreover, when playing a dragon with a focus on spellcasting ability, meant that at a certain point your dragon abilities stopped coming into play, as the extreme power of spells in pathfinder 1e warped the game around them.

Pathfinder 2e however, seems like it might actually be able to work with playable dragons. Size no longer matters for most purposes, meaning that changing size will not cause major disruptions in-game balance and rules interactions. The tighter math means that even spellcasters can occasionally get into melee against lower-level foes, which would allow even dragons with a focus on spellcasting to do dragon things. Size increases no longer boosting damage will also make things easier from a conversion and game balance standpoint.

What I am asking is this. Does anyone have any plans for making playable dragons in pathfinder 2e? I know that we are only a year into the game's release, and that Paizo is coming out with products at such a high rate that gambling with creating a product that they might soon invalidate is a real risk, but playable dragons seem like something that Paizo is unlikely to tackle. So I am wondering if anyone has considered attempting this for pathfinder 2e.

Hello everyone! This is my first ever post on these forums, and I am excited to get to share my thoughts and ideas with everyone here! With that out of the way, I will now get to my point.

Pathfinder 2e has done a lot of great things with monster design. Many creatures that were simplistic or boring are now far more interesting then they were in Pathfinder 1e. Almost every creature now has a unique ability or two that makes them stand out from one another. The numbers actually working in this edition, and the three action system, have opened up an enormous amount of potential design space for monsters, which the team at Paizo has used to great effect for most of their creations.

All of this just makes the current design behind Pathfinder 2e dragons all the more disappointing.

Compared to many other monsters, I find Pathfinder 2e's dragons to be almost identical to there 5e counterparts, being largely just bags of hit points and damage. Many dragon types do have an interesting reaction ability, but other than that, they don't have much going on with them.

Just compare dragons with the linnorms in both Bestiaries. Linnorms have riders on several of there attacks (poison and grab) and have breath weapons that not only do damage but also have other effects (causing a status condition, leaving a damaging cloud, or sometimes both). Tarn and tor linnorms also have powerful single-action abilities that they can and probably will use, giving them a way to still threaten opponents even if they only have a single action to spare due to control effects or using their breath weapon.

Additionally, there are some notable oddities in the actual design of many dragons. The range of a dragon's frightful presence never changes regardless of its size, level, or age. Some of the existing dragons have attacks that they will likely never use. Any dragon with four different strikes (cloud, gold, magma, and red to name a few) will almost never make a tail strike, there bite is more damaging, and they do not make a tail strike when they frenzy. The only time they will ever make a tail strike is if an opponent happens to be exactly 5 feet out of bite distance, and they only have a single action left. Draconic momentum just feels conceptually off to me, as a dragon could land in the middle of a village, attack some random commoner, and because the strike is almost certainly a crit recharge its breath weapon for some reason. I could go on, but I think I have said enough to make my point.

So I am going to try and make dragons more interesting. Here is what I have as a draft for a more interesting and dangerous dragon, using an adult white dragon as the baseline.

Adult White Dragon (Creature 10)

Common CE Large Dragon (Cold)

Perception +22; darkvision, scent (precise) 100 feet, snow vision

Languages Common, Draconic

Skills Acrobatics +17, Arcana +16, Athletics +23, Intimidation +20, Stealth +18

Str +7, Dex +2, Con +5, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +2

Snow Vision Snow doesn’t impair a white dragons vision; it ignores concealment from snowfall.

AC 30; Fort +22, Ref +19, Will +17; +1 status to all saves vs. magic

HP 260; Immunities cold; Weaknesses fire 10

Dragon Chill (arcane, aura, cold, evocation); 5 feet, 2d6 cold damage (DC 27 basic Reflex save)

Frightful Presence (aura, emotion, fear, mental) 100 feet, DC 27

Freezing Blood [reaction] (arcane, cold); Trigger An adjacent creature deals piercing or slashing damage to the dragon. Effect The dragon’s blood sprays on the creature, dealing 2d6 cold damage. A creature that takes cold damage in this way is slowed 1 for 1 round.

Speed 30 feet, fly 120 feet, swim 30 feet, ice climb 30 feet

Melee [one action] jaws +23 (deadly 2d6 cold, magical, reach 10 feet), Damage 2d10+15 piercing plus Improved Grab

Melee [one action] claw +23 (agile, deadly 2d6 cold, magical), Damage 2d10+11 slashing plus Improved Knockdown

Melee [one action] tail +23 (deadly 2d6 cold, magical, reach 15 feet), Damage 2d10+15 bludgeoning plus Improved Push 15 feet

Draconic Frenzy [one action] The dragon makes two Strikes in any order.

Constrict [one action] 2d10+5 bludgeoning, DC 29

Breath Weapon [one action/two actions/three actions] The dragon breathes a cloud of frost that deals 5d6/10d6/15d6 cold damage in a 100-foot line/50-foot cone/25 foot emanation (DC 29 basic Reflex save). A creature that fails its saving throw is immobilized by the ice for 1 round. The damage and shape of the dragons Breath Weapon corresponds with the number of actions the dragon uses. The dragon can’t use Breath Weapon again for 1d4 rounds.

Ground Slam [one action] The dragon slams into the ground. It can do this if it’s on the ground or Flying within 10 feet of the ground. Each creature on the ground within 10 feet must succeed at a DC 29 Reflex save or fall prone and take 3d6 bludgeoning damage. The dragon can then Step

Shape Ice [one action] (arcane, transmutation, water) The dragon reshapes a cube of ice or snow it touches, up to 10 feet across. Any creature standing atop the ice must succeed at a DC 27 Reflex save or Acrobatics check. On a failure, the creature falls prone atop the ice; on a critical failure, it falls off the ice entirely and is also prone.

Draconic Momentum A white dragon can move through the spaces of creatures smaller than it. When a white dragon moves, it pulls any creatures it has grabbed along with it.

Ice Climb A white dragon can climb on ice as though it had the listed climb speed. It ignores difficult terrain and greater difficult terrain from ice and snow and doesn’t risk falling when crossing the ice.

Arcane Innate Spells DC 27, attack +19; 2nd obscuring mist (at will); 1st gust of wind (at will)

Any thoughts? Comments? I would love some feedback on this, as well as your own ideas as to how to make dragons more interesting.